Specifically-Feats, Sanctified spells and Prestige Classes.
Not availability. That can be easily determined by individual DMs I think. But the effect of them on Ravenloft and vice versa.
One can easily imagine a risen martyr existing in Falcovnia, created when a rebellious healer refused to pay taxes to the brutish tyrant because he wanted to use the money to heal the sick etc. It would be a cool scene when the soldiers surround him and he simply puts his hand to his heart and says.
- Violence, hate and greed begat only pain, suffering, and hate. I have sworn an oath. I refuse violence. Morninglord I surrunder myself to your light.
They laugh and slaughter him. Little did they know that they started their own undoing....
See easy as pie. As long as you keep it typically Ravenloftish it's fine. Hell according to me it's full of possibilities...
But do exalted characters develop a reality wrinkle all their own? Since DLs are aware of pallys, shouldn't they also be inherently aware of exalted characters? Or no? These and more are the theoretical questions that I think of.
Do sanctified spells also have their effects warped by the fabric of Ravenloft? Or are they so holy, they bypass that which normally effects 'mundane' spells.
Ravenloftian commoners don't exactly have a ton of happy-go-lucky, Good-above-all, deities.
Hala's gift to mankind is magic, so things related to that could work.
The G-aligned sect of Ezra could qualify, as would non-misguided worshippers of Belenos (read: those who don't believe that burning people at the stake qualifies as "good").
But, apart from those, RL natives have no hint about (and certainly no contact with!) G-aligned outsiders. So, anything related to these must go.
The second thing is to understand that no matter how much PC wish it wasn't so, everything they get in RL is provided by the DP. Yep, that includes special powers granted - supposedly - by the "gods". Whether the DP are the real source of those, or merely decide what to block, what to allow, and what to modify is open to question, of course.
That means NOTHING will work if they don't allow it, period. In other words, if an ability/feat/spell is too good to be true, then it probably is indeed. In RL, a good motto for a DM is "there is always a catch".
Players who hoped to avoid the normal Ravenloftian "problems" by taking the (IMO, hopelessly broken) stuff from BoED are merely deluding themselves. Either it won't work at all, or it will "seem" to work as intended.. for a while. And then their world will come crashing down as they discover the local darklord is utterly immune to it contrary to what they had been led to believe.
More insidious would be to allow the abilities/feats/spells to work but only as long as the PC are confident that they are working for the "greater good". Chip away that confidence by giving the villains a good Bluff score. The minute they doubt themselves, their god, or the strength of their faith, it's over like snow in the sun.
In short, allow them to use those options but make them sweat for it (the smallest shade of grey on their alignement and they can kiss them goodbye), and don't forget when applying result to stick to the letter rather than to the spirit of the text. That usually spells the doom of any would-be holier-than-thou hero.
I have always liked the Dark Pact thesis on the lack of Gods interferring with the goings on in RL.
If PCs come from other realms already having the Exalted stuff, obviously the DPs take over at that point but I dont think they would negate them. Much like what you just said, they would allow them to work but.....
There is always a but. Add imaginative DM wickedness here.
It is always a good idea to let the players 'think' they are doing their Gods will only to subtly realize they have strayed.
Good times.
Much as your advice has always been some of the best I've received on the forums. I completely disagree with you on this point. Even in Ravenloft, the gods can exist and they do.
The difference is that faith is much more important in Ravenloft. In Ravenloft, Ezra just does'nt walk up to you and says: Hi I'm Ezra goddess of the mists.
The dark powers make the downward spiral to corruption easier, just as they test those that would choose purity. But that does'nt mean that other forces don't exist or intervene. If one thing can be said about Ravenloft, it's that it forges some of the greatest heroes.
A priest who manages to keep faith, purity and courage gets his spells from his God, not the dark powers. Just as does a faithful paladin. That's why paladins, outsiders, etc disrupt the fabric of the Real of Dread, they are infused with the energy of exterior forces with power of equal or greater strenght then the Dark Powers.
Yes exalted deed powers ascribe to the same rules as any other characters in the setting concerning power checks, etc.
But if someone manages to reach exalted status ( a good Dm will make it hard as hell to achieve, it means absolute purity and wisdom). He gets his powers from his purity and his God, not the dark powers.
For one thing, the Dark Powers have nothing to do with exalted status and neither is it within their realms of control.
That said I think Ravenloft is the best published setting ever made to feature exalted characters simply because in Ravenloft, the villains really are villains with a capital V.
Dms have to keep a close leash on Exalted Characters. The book was'nt made to allow holy hack and slash characters and neither do they allow someone to bypass the rules of Ravenloft if anything they suffer from the restrictions even more because they feel it in the very core.
:embarrass :embarrass O.K I'm done ranting, Mortepierre, I hope I did'nt offend you, it was'nt my intention...
Anyway here are a few suggestions for religions that might have exalted characters
Morninglord ( definetly)
Akiri Pantheon ( Osiris, Re, obviously)
Ezra ( Mordent branch, the others don't seem to fit for me)
Belenus ( provided that they don't turn spanish inquisition crazy)
Any outlander god that could be found
I highly suggest you look at Heroes of Light, published by White Wolf, it offers plenty of tips for good characters in Ravenloft
Anyway, here's a few more of my opinions...
I am looking for opinions and theories about how the things in the Book of Exalted deeds could be effected in Ravenloft. I have looked at the Fraternity of Shadows site and found some good stuff about the Book of Vile Darkness but not it's counterpart.
Specifically-Feats, Sanctified spells and Prestige Classes.
Not availability. That can be easily determined by individual DMs I think. But the effect of them on Ravenloft and vice versa.
I would consider treating anyone with anything exalted to have the same effect on the darklords as a paladin. Taking the stuff out of there will draw the attention very quickly of all things evil and dangerous.
Eric
Mortepierre
Much as your advice has always been some of the best I've received on the forums. I completely disagree with you on this point. Even in Ravenloft, the gods can exist and they do.
I never said that the gods didn't exist. Obviously, given the variety of settings, they do. I am even willing to admit that "some" gods do have a veiled interest in RL natives.
What I said is that due to the pact between the DP and the gods, the latter have very limited power in RL. In a way, the DP act as a "filter". Since exalted character draw their powers from the Upper Planes, they are subject to the same limitations as everyone else in that regard.
In short: Can exalted "stuff" work in RL? Yes. Will it? Depending on the DP's plans, maybe or maybe not.
Thank you for the praise, btw
The difference is that faith is much more important in Ravenloft. In Ravenloft, Ezra just does'nt walk up to you and says: Hi I'm Ezra goddess of the mists.
We fully agree on that point.
The dark powers make the downward spiral to corruption easier, just as they test those that would choose purity. But that does'nt mean that other forces don't exist or intervene. If one thing can be said about Ravenloft, it's that it forges some of the greatest heroes.
Again, we agree.
A priest who manages to keep faith, purity and courage gets his spells from his God, not the dark powers.
No offense but.. says you. Please show me a quote from any canon-RL accessory that states that beyond the shadow of a doubt. The DP have been known to favor "good" characters in the past.. if doing so worked to their advantage (such as providing a worthy nemesis to a darklord). And whether divine spellcasting is truly provided by the gods, the DP, or simply the faith one has in the gods has always been - at least in my understanding - an open question in RL.
But if someone manages to reach exalted status ( a good Dm will make it hard as hell to achieve, it means absolute purity and wisdom). He gets his powers from his purity and his God, not the dark powers.
You'll note that one of the solutions I suggested was to play on the purity and/or strength of faith of the PC. As long as they maintained both, no problem. The minute the shadow of a doubt appeared, the house would come crashing down.
For one thing, the Dark Powers have nothing to do with exalted status and neither is it within their realms of control.
Exalted status, agreed. That's something a PC has to prove worthy of on his own. About the "realm of control" part, on the other hand, I strongly disagree. Some people still seem to think that some actions, items, powers, etc.. are stronger than the DP.
They aren't. The DP are on their home ground in RL. You can't possibly win against them. Everything that happens there, they allowed to some degree.
Well, yes, a greater god or major artifact could probably get past them. Unfortunately, that would be seen as a violation of the non-intervention pact. Somehow, I don't think any deity in its right mind is prepared to deal with that...
O.K I'm done ranting, Mortepierre, I hope I did'nt offend you, it was'nt my intention
Not at all. I enjoy the debate.
Do note, though, that access to many exalted feats/spells/items is linked to knowledge of the upper planes and/or contact with their denizens. Not exactly something one can experience in RL...
For instance, how do you declare yourself Favored of the Companions when you have never even heard of them and can't possibly meet them or their servants?
Do note, though, that access to many exalted feats/spells/items is linked to knowledge of the upper planes and/or contact with their denizens. Not exactly something one can experience in RL...
For instance, how do you declare yourself Favored of the Companions when you have never even heard of them and can't possibly meet them or their servants?
The 'favored of' Feats and the others like it do require some actual participation by the entities in question. that obviously doesn't happen everyday in RL. Others only require inner strength and devotion which in theory could happen in RL and any other world.
But to the mainpoint. The DPs control the show as it were, but they do allow the feats, spells, whatever to work. Although they may be altered on a case by case basis. It could conceivably be debated that the DPs allow these things to function because it furthers their unknown plots, desires, etc. They allow some good to enhance the evil. The struggle truly becomes that much more Epic because of the abilities involved.
They allow some good to enhance the evil. The struggle truly becomes that much more Epic because of the abilities involved.
And this, IMHO, is the answer to the question. If you create RL villains or darklords using material from the BoVD, then there must be heroes created using material from the BoED in order to provide the former with a good challenge.
And what about exalted spells? Do they work as intended because they are 'holy.' Or are they warped as well like regular spells?
Do note, though, that access to many exalted feats/spells/items is linked to knowledge of the upper planes and/or contact with their denizens. Not exactly something one can experience in RL...
I can see how those particular feats as written wouldn't be workable in Ravenloft. OTOH, there's nothing to stop a DM from creating perfectly viable reasons to make them available, albeit extremely rare. For instance, if a celestial got trapped in Ravenloft, it doesn't have to throw a hissy-fit or go charging off to attack the nearest darklord; it might attempt to bring some light to the realm's darkness, in the long term, by teaching worthy natives about its home and sponsoring the attainment of Exalted abilities.
Does anyone have a take on reality wrinkles in the case of exalted characters?
And what about exalted spells? Do they work as intended because they are 'holy.' Or are they warped as well like regular spells?
Here's my take on sanctified magic in RL. It can be cast from a scroll or prepared from a spellbook (or prayerbook if you're using the archivist class from Heroes of Horror) or scroll, but clerics can't prepare them with prayer or spontaneously cast them like cure/inflict spells (the connection to an outlander god is too warped by the DPs). The casting of such a spell briefly creates a "spell echo" that the domain's darklord can detect (in a similar fashion to Hazlik's spell detection ability; the rational is the pull of sanctified magic at the spell's completion creates a brief reality wrinkle--too brief for the wrinkle to have an effect on the environment but powerful enough for a spellcasting darklord such as Strahd or Azalin to figure out what was cast).
Since I don't have the book in front of me, I can't go over the how the sanctified spells react in RL in my campaign thoroughly. The spells that summon celestials are still affected by RL's planar restrictions (admittedly, channel celestial could create an interesting situation even for a horror campaign. Sanctify the wicked could be used on darklords, but they should get a +4 to their saving throws and be allowed to save at least once a month for the duration (maybe even weekly or daily--the DPs don't like to give up their toys that easily) even if they want the spell cast on them. Given how an evil creature is supposed to react if released from the spell, trying to make sure that the spell continues could be a campaign in itself.
I hope this helps for some ideas.