Thri-kreen versus water

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Band2

Oct 18, 2006 9:37:12
I am sure I saw some where that thri-kreen cannot swim in water, and would sink if they ever landed in a large body of water. But that got me thinking. Can thri-kreen hold their breath underwater? With the way their insectiod mouth is formed can they seal it to prevent water from rushing into their throats and drowning them.
#2

brun01

Oct 18, 2006 9:54:25
If kreen really breathe like insects, closing their mouths wouldn't be the main issue, they would need to close their spiracles (openings on the sides of the thorax and abdomen used for tracheal respiration). I don't know if this would still apply with the 3.5 version.
Also, their bodies really don't go along well with humidity...
#3

redkank_dup

Oct 18, 2006 9:58:27
I am sure I saw some where that thri-kreen cannot swim in water, and would sink if they ever landed in a large body of water. But that got me thinking. Can thri-kreen hold their breath underwater? With the way their insectiod mouth is formed can they seal it to prevent water from rushing into their throats and drowning them.

Correct - thri-kreen cannot swim, nor can they float without support (TKoA, p28). Furthermore, thri-kreen don't breathe through their mouths, but through breathing holes (Jeral breathing holes are located on the sides of the protothorax between the arms and Tok'sa breathing holes are on the head, one pair between the eyes and the other pair above the mandibles. The various references to breathing holes in TkoA suggest that the kreen cannot close them voluntarily and need to cover them with cloth or something similar to keep dust from clogging them. If water reaches the breathing holes, they drown much faster than humans. The section on the protothorax (p 26) says that the lungs connect to the oesophagus, so we have to assume that the breathing holes feed air to the oesophagus, which in turn feeds air to the lungs.

I wouldn't say that a kreen could hold its breath at all, based on the info given in TKoA. You needn't rule that a kreen immersed in water drowns immediately, but you could drastically cut the time before drowning sets in.
#4

dirk00001

Oct 18, 2006 10:07:02
IMO they can't - I'm pretty sure they breathe through their chitin like most insects do, so they'd probably drown. Then again they're "monstrous humanoids" so maybe not.

I think the Thri-Kreen of Athas book has a blurb about this, but I don't have access to it at the moment.

As far as water goes, a wet thri-kreen starts growing a lethal fungus so even if they can't swim (which sounds logical enough to me) they're still pretty screwed if they fall into water.

Edit: Hehe didn't post quickly enough, I guess. ;)
#5

elonarc

Oct 19, 2006 4:07:15
Thanks for the explanation of the various references in TKoA, Red Kank. Seems you know a little bit about insects.
#6

thebrax

Oct 28, 2006 19:41:07
If they breathe through holes in their sides, that would also affect the way they speak. Can they shout or sing?
#7

jon_oracle_of_athas

Oct 29, 2006 7:04:12
ThereĀ“s nothing like thri-kreen opera. :P
#8

redkank_dup

Oct 29, 2006 7:27:31
If the breathing holes are connected to both the lungs and the oesophagus, the kreen could inhale through the holes and exhale through the mouth, thus allowing it to speak (or sing or make any of those other kooky noises that kreen make) as normal.
#9

thebrax

Oct 29, 2006 8:32:46
I don't think any insects have lungs.

This reminds me -- one of my little house rules is that only players who are playing kreen can carry clicking pens at the table.
#10

redkank_dup

Oct 29, 2006 11:33:16
Kreen have lungs - it says so in TKoA. So fie on biology!
#11

dirk00001

Oct 30, 2006 9:48:43
Kreen have lungs - it says so in TKoA. So fie on biology!

Part of that is due, I'm guessing, to the fact that a thri-kreen can't be a "true" insect, biologically speaking, as they're way too large - I can't remember what the size limit is, if there even is a definited limit, but I've heard repeatedly that insects and other creatures with exoskeletons can only reach a certain size as they'd die if they got any bigger. I think it's even due - in part, at least - to how they breathe, something along the lines that without true lungs an insect beyond a certain size wouldn't be able to get oxygen into their system quickly enough.

Another case of trying to attribute real-world physics and such to a fantasy universe, but hey...that's what I'm good at. ;)
#12

thebrax

Oct 31, 2006 11:27:54
Even if they have lungs, the fact that they breath through holes in the sides excludes the idea of a trachea, which is what you'd need to sing or yell in the way that we do.

The "kooky sounds that kreen make," all those poppings and stuff -- none of that requires a trachea. Those are at most unvoiced consonants. They need not even necessarily come from the kreen's mouth.
#13

redkank_dup

Oct 31, 2006 12:07:25
Very true. In my campaign they come from the kreen's butt.
#14

zombiegleemax

Oct 31, 2006 21:01:23
Even if they have lungs, the fact that they breath through holes in the sides excludes the idea of a trachea, which is what you'd need to sing or yell in the way that we do.

The "kooky sounds that kreen make," all those poppings and stuff -- none of that requires a trachea. Those are at most unvoiced consonants. They need not even necessarily come from the kreen's mouth.

They also can be emulated with vibration and the shaping of a hollow space to manipulate sounds. Thir-Kreen eat with their jaws and mouths, so when I have Thri-kreen talk, I have them vibrating their mandibles and throat and shaping those vibrations into something not quite unlike talking, but alot like a n artificial larynx.

Next time I play a thri-kreen I'm going to wear this:

http://www.buzzerks.com/mantis.html

and talk through this:

http://storeforknowledge.com/Voice-Changer-Spy-Toy-P3969C214.aspx

to make me sound buzzy.
#15

thebrax

Nov 02, 2006 13:01:52
They also can be emulated with vibration and the shaping of a hollow space to manipulate sounds. Thir-Kreen eat with their jaws and mouths, so when I have Thri-kreen talk, I have them vibrating their mandibles and throat and shaping those vibrations into something not quite unlike talking, but alot like a n artificial larynx.

Next time I play a thri-kreen I'm going to wear this:

http://www.buzzerks.com/mantis.html

and talk through this:

http://storeforknowledge.com/Voice-Changer-Spy-Toy-P3969C214.aspx

to make me sound buzzy.

Sounds good. As a rule of thumb I'd say that a thri-kreen can make any sound that you can make with your mount without breath, i.e. while breathing through your nose, and probably a bunch of sounds like that that we can't make. The breathed sounds, like fricatives, f, v, etc. would be harder. Liquids like M, N, L would seem harder. What I think for sure they could not do is distinguish between voiced and unvoiced fricatives, like between F and V, or between S and Z. S & Z would sound the same since they don't have a voice box processing their exhaled breath.