Athasian Dragon Questions... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Athasian Dragon Questions...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 18, 2006 23:02:08 I've got a few Dragon questions whose answers I've been unable to locate... so can anyone answer these questions or provide their own opinions?

Maybe even ask a few Dragon questions of your own?

1) Can Dragons have children?

2) Do Dragons have to eat/sleep?

3) Were there any other published non-SK dragons besides that one dude in Black Flames?

So what do you think/know?
#2
redkank_dup
Oct 19, 2006 3:28:38 1.) Yes. Abalch-Re does it all the time.

2.) Dunno - can't remember if there is anything in the canon about this. I'd say there's no reason that they shouldn't. But on the other hand, it would be kinda cool to have dragons that don't need to eat or sleep - cool image.

3.) Yeah, there was one released on an AD&D trading card, iirc. He was a 25th level dragon ("Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own.")
I had a feeling that there was another (maybe in the Dead Lands material that slipped out onto the net some time back - can't remember) but I am unable to recall it right now and can't be bothered to look. Oh, and there was also that guy in the Grave Circumstances adventure who was trying to complete the process, but I can't remember if he had already started his transformation or not.
#3
dirk00001
Oct 19, 2006 9:40:06 1) Nibenay has/had a "son" as well, although whether or not he's truly a blood-relative is somewhat questionable.

2) According to Lynn Abbey, only occasionally - in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King it is stated several times that under normal circumstances Hamanu only has to sleep occasionally, and even then it's more for "relaxation" than a necessity. Same goes for eating, if I recall correctly - they can and do eat, but it would probably take an extremely long time for them to starve, if that's even possible. A lot of RaFoaDK isn't considered canon but this part doesn't in any way conflict with other DS material (not that I'm aware of, anyway) so I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered gospel.

3) With stats - I have no clue. In one of the adventure modules, Dragon's Crown I think, a ghost mentions some stuff about the Cleansing Wars that seems to indicate there were several dragons at that time. And in the Prism Pentad the halfling Nok mentions that there are "many dragons" as well. But again, I can't think of any adventure or anything that specifically lists 'em.
#4
Sysane
Oct 19, 2006 9:46:57
3) Were there any other published non-SK dragons besides that one dude in Black Flames?

Depends, if you run the Troll Grave Chasm adventure found in Dungeon Magazine (don't remember the issue #. I think it was called Grave Circumstances?) there's a chance for another Dragon to roam Athas.
#5
Pennarin
Oct 19, 2006 18:28:29 Dirk, Abbey's Hamanu is the way he is because he's a Champion...while StakeTeriyake's question is about dragons.

StakeTeriyake, like others have mentionned there has been occasions when sorcerer-kings have had children. Furthermore, in all such circumstances there is clear evidence those children were ordinary humans.
#6
zombiegleemax
Oct 19, 2006 18:57:23 Thanks, y'all.
#7
dirk00001
Oct 20, 2006 12:17:18
Dirk, Abbey's Hamanu is the way he is because he's a Champion...while StakeTeriyake's question is about dragons.

Hm...which of course brings up the question of whether or not being a Champion and being a dragon are the same thing, as far as her books are concerned...

But I'll leave it at that. ;)
#8
Pennarin
Oct 20, 2006 19:12:59
Hm...which of course brings up the question of whether or not being a Champion and being a dragon are the same thing, as far as her books are concerned...

It isn't. She makes the difference. Hamanu makes the difference. Ordinary athasian dragons can't match the power of a Champion, who already is a dragon and more.

Athas.org's Champion of Rajaat template partly reflects this.
#9
seker
Oct 21, 2006 14:38:00
It isn't. She makes the difference. Hamanu makes the difference. Ordinary athasian dragons can't match the power of a Champion, who already is a dragon and more.

Athas.org's Champion of Rajaat template partly reflects this.

Actually that depends on point of view.... considering many do not consider Abbey's books canon as they change alot of stuff... Though it is obvious that not all dragons are Champions.... it is only in abbeys books that there was a significant difference from champions and dragons in a power view.

In the original setting there was alot argued for the concept that the Champions were just powerful psionicist/defilers that were started on the metamorphosis. (in fact that was exactly how it was portrayed, it was not till revised that it was changed.., and to be honest revised took alot of things from the novels out of context which caused huge changes in the world... halflings not being able to be illusinoists anymore for instance..) In the epic bureau we are trying to give the GM's the options....

So individual GM's can have their setting the way they want and it still be within the rules.... whether they use the champion template as seperate... or make it just part of the first metamorphosis when Rajaat stated it on them.... or if they choose not to use it at all. Depending on the GM's view of the SK's in their game. The fluff from the different editions and novels conflict so much that the GM can pick and choose their own methods.

Now while I personally preffer to use the pentad and the original box set as my core.... and adapt the other information in by that information... (mainly because I much preffer the original view of athas to the revised) I am not going to tell people they have to use my vision of it.
#10
Pennarin
Oct 21, 2006 21:56:45
Actually that depends on point of view.... considering many do not consider Abbey's books canon as they change alot of stuff...

I stop you right there, as what Dirk said is "as far as her books are concerned". He made no mention of whether or not they were considered canon or otherwise, so my response was according.
#11
Tsuul
Oct 22, 2006 1:37:28
3.) Yeah, there was one released on an AD&D trading card, iirc. He was a 25th level dragon ("Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own.")

Is that the guy on the cover of the City-State of Tyr book?
#12
redkank_dup
Oct 22, 2006 4:47:52
Is that the guy on the cover of the City-State of Tyr book?

Don't think so - his image on the card looks different to the image on the cover of City-State of Tyr. No idea what that thing on the cover is supposed to be. Its jawline is a bit like a gith, but its body is more like a ssurran, although it doesn't have a proper tail (not counting the fluffy thing sticking out of its butt...)
#13
zombiegleemax
Oct 22, 2006 20:19:11 I'm fairly certain that it is a dragon.

It resembles the appearance of Nibenay in the adventure module "Marauders of Nibenay."

Personally, I've never noticed much of a relation to the covers and interior material in the early Dark Sun stuff... so I've always figured it could be any dragon from anywhere.
#14
Pennarin
Oct 23, 2006 1:19:59 The cover of CSoT appears to be an alternate universe where Kalak succeeded at his transformation, leaving the Golden Tower in ruins in the background.
...although I'm sure its not and its just bad info having been fed the artist at the time.
#15
zombiegleemax
Oct 23, 2006 6:05:56 From everything I've heard about Dark Sun, Brom (the artist) was about as involved in developing the world as the rest of the team.

At least that's what Tim Brown said.

From what I gather, it's doubtful that he had "wrong info."
#16
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 23, 2006 8:47:56
From everything I've heard about Dark Sun, Brom (the artist) was about as involved in developing the world as the rest of the team.

At least that's what Tim Brown said.

From what I gather, it's doubtful that he had "wrong info."

The problem is... there was significant "left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing" issues in TSR at the time. Brom developed things artistically with one style, and then later, when he left, the artists who replaced him really had even less comprehension with the setting.
#17
zombiegleemax
Oct 23, 2006 17:02:31
The problem is... there was significant "left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing" issues in TSR at the time. Brom developed things artistically with one style, and then later, when he left, the artists who replaced him really had even less comprehension with the setting.

Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr."
#18
Pennarin
Oct 23, 2006 21:06:46
Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr."

Still, the events portrayed on the cover did not occur in any novel, adventure, or expansion. Interpret from it whatever you want, StakeTeriyake. Ours are but possibilities.
#19
zombiegleemax
Oct 23, 2006 21:41:10 I can see it now...

Early 90's at TSR...

"Draw whatever, man. Nobody cares what accounting says, you'll still get paid."

And I never noticed until just now that there was a ruined tower in the background of that pic.
#20
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 24, 2006 12:40:58
Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr."

And I'm saying that even Brom wasn't completely privy to all information. There was a fundamental breakdown in communication across ALL of TSR when Dark Sun had come about. That's why TSR materials from that time seem a bit disjointed. Game developers were kept from communicating with novelists who were kept from communicating with artists -- they would all communicate through some intermediary, who wasn't knowledgeable in the game or setting at all, and seemed to regularly mess everything up. The results are... Brom was told to draw something that isn't in the game. Denning wrote something in his novels that doesn't appear in the gaming materials. Abbey had to attempt to piece everything together as best she could while being kept from direct communication with anybody on the Dark Sun project. And the chain continues...

So therefore, while what Brom did is incredible, just because Brom drew it doesn't automatically mean that it 100% correct to the setting. Just like any of the other Dark Sun developers throughout the TSR time. TSR collapsed internally, with a strong reason for it being due to horrible communication breakdowns. Dark Sun's list of errors, inconsistancies, and outright contradictions are all signs of this breakdown.
#21
cnahumck
Oct 24, 2006 19:50:00 to try to get this thing back on track, with the current 3.5 rules, dragons move through the process with epic spells. So with this, you can add things to the epic spells, making them harder, to gain whatever benifits you and your DM work out. Up stregth, Give up sleep, permenant spell effects, energy resistance, anything you want. It is really just a question of spell DC and what you are willing to sacrifice for it. sky's the limit.
#22
squidfur-
Oct 25, 2006 3:35:18
The cover of CSoT appears to be an alternate universe where Kalak succeeded at his transformation, leaving the Golden Tower in ruins in the background.
...although I'm sure its not and its just bad info having been fed the artist at the time.

problem with this theory is that the same type of creature appears in the background on the cover of Slave Tribes.
#23
cnahumck
Oct 25, 2006 6:47:17 just think of it as a New Race or Tower Freak
#24
redkank_dup
Oct 25, 2006 7:18:50 Yeah, there are loads of illustrations (especially by Baxa) that are of no race I recognise - I always assume them to be human mutations or new races of some kind or other.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 18, 2006 23:02:08	I've got a few Dragon questions whose answers I've been unable to locate... so can anyone answer these questions or provide their own opinions? Maybe even ask a few Dragon questions of your own? 1) Can Dragons have children? 2) Do Dragons have to eat/sleep? 3) Were there any other published non-SK dragons besides that one dude in Black Flames? So what do you think/know?
#2 redkank_dup Oct 19, 2006 3:28:38	1.) Yes. Abalch-Re does it all the time. 2.) Dunno - can't remember if there is anything in the canon about this. I'd say there's no reason that they shouldn't. But on the other hand, it would be kinda cool to have dragons that don't need to eat or sleep - cool image. 3.) Yeah, there was one released on an AD&D trading card, iirc. He was a 25th level dragon ("Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own.") I had a feeling that there was another (maybe in the Dead Lands material that slipped out onto the net some time back - can't remember) but I am unable to recall it right now and can't be bothered to look. Oh, and there was also that guy in the Grave Circumstances adventure who was trying to complete the process, but I can't remember if he had already started his transformation or not.
#3 dirk00001 Oct 19, 2006 9:40:06	1) Nibenay has/had a "son" as well, although whether or not he's truly a blood-relative is somewhat questionable. 2) According to Lynn Abbey, only occasionally - in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King it is stated several times that under normal circumstances Hamanu only has to sleep occasionally, and even then it's more for "relaxation" than a necessity. Same goes for eating, if I recall correctly - they can and do eat, but it would probably take an extremely long time for them to starve, if that's even possible. A lot of RaFoaDK isn't considered canon but this part doesn't in any way conflict with other DS material (not that I'm aware of, anyway) so I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered gospel. 3) With stats - I have no clue. In one of the adventure modules, Dragon's Crown I think, a ghost mentions some stuff about the Cleansing Wars that seems to indicate there were several dragons at that time. And in the Prism Pentad the halfling Nok mentions that there are "many dragons" as well. But again, I can't think of any adventure or anything that specifically lists 'em.
#4 Sysane Oct 19, 2006 9:46:57	3) Were there any other published non-SK dragons besides that one dude in Black Flames? Depends, if you run the Troll Grave Chasm adventure found in Dungeon Magazine (don't remember the issue #. I think it was called Grave Circumstances?) there's a chance for another Dragon to roam Athas.
#5 Pennarin Oct 19, 2006 18:28:29	Dirk, Abbey's Hamanu is the way he is because he's a Champion...while StakeTeriyake's question is about dragons. StakeTeriyake, like others have mentionned there has been occasions when sorcerer-kings have had children. Furthermore, in all such circumstances there is clear evidence those children were ordinary humans.
#6 zombiegleemax Oct 19, 2006 18:57:23	Thanks, y'all.
#7 dirk00001 Oct 20, 2006 12:17:18	Dirk, Abbey's Hamanu is the way he is because he's a Champion...while StakeTeriyake's question is about dragons. Hm...which of course brings up the question of whether or not being a Champion and being a dragon are the same thing, as far as her books are concerned... But I'll leave it at that. ;)
#8 Pennarin Oct 20, 2006 19:12:59	Hm...which of course brings up the question of whether or not being a Champion and being a dragon are the same thing, as far as her books are concerned... It isn't. She makes the difference. Hamanu makes the difference. Ordinary athasian dragons can't match the power of a Champion, who already is a dragon and more. Athas.org's Champion of Rajaat template partly reflects this.
#9 seker Oct 21, 2006 14:38:00	It isn't. She makes the difference. Hamanu makes the difference. Ordinary athasian dragons can't match the power of a Champion, who already is a dragon and more. Athas.org's Champion of Rajaat template partly reflects this. Actually that depends on point of view.... considering many do not consider Abbey's books canon as they change alot of stuff... Though it is obvious that not all dragons are Champions.... it is only in abbeys books that there was a significant difference from champions and dragons in a power view. In the original setting there was alot argued for the concept that the Champions were just powerful psionicist/defilers that were started on the metamorphosis. (in fact that was exactly how it was portrayed, it was not till revised that it was changed.., and to be honest revised took alot of things from the novels out of context which caused huge changes in the world... halflings not being able to be illusinoists anymore for instance..) In the epic bureau we are trying to give the GM's the options.... So individual GM's can have their setting the way they want and it still be within the rules.... whether they use the champion template as seperate... or make it just part of the first metamorphosis when Rajaat stated it on them.... or if they choose not to use it at all. Depending on the GM's view of the SK's in their game. The fluff from the different editions and novels conflict so much that the GM can pick and choose their own methods. Now while I personally preffer to use the pentad and the original box set as my core.... and adapt the other information in by that information... (mainly because I much preffer the original view of athas to the revised) I am not going to tell people they have to use my vision of it.
#10 Pennarin Oct 21, 2006 21:56:45	Actually that depends on point of view.... considering many do not consider Abbey's books canon as they change alot of stuff... I stop you right there, as what Dirk said is "as far as her books are concerned". He made no mention of whether or not they were considered canon or otherwise, so my response was according.
#11 Tsuul Oct 22, 2006 1:37:28	3.) Yeah, there was one released on an AD&D trading card, iirc. He was a 25th level dragon ("Once a defiler in the employ of Kalak of Tyr, Graytch learned of his potential for dragon transformation many years ago. He vanished from the Tyr region, pursuing his destiny among the wanderers and thri-kreen tribes of the distant south. With great power within his grasp, Graytch dreams of making Tyr his own.") Is that the guy on the cover of the City-State of Tyr book?
#12 redkank_dup Oct 22, 2006 4:47:52	Is that the guy on the cover of the City-State of Tyr book? Don't think so - his image on the card looks different to the image on the cover of City-State of Tyr. No idea what that thing on the cover is supposed to be. Its jawline is a bit like a gith, but its body is more like a ssurran, although it doesn't have a proper tail (not counting the fluffy thing sticking out of its butt...)
#13 zombiegleemax Oct 22, 2006 20:19:11	I'm fairly certain that it is a dragon. It resembles the appearance of Nibenay in the adventure module "Marauders of Nibenay." Personally, I've never noticed much of a relation to the covers and interior material in the early Dark Sun stuff... so I've always figured it could be any dragon from anywhere.
#14 Pennarin Oct 23, 2006 1:19:59	The cover of CSoT appears to be an alternate universe where Kalak succeeded at his transformation, leaving the Golden Tower in ruins in the background. ...although I'm sure its not and its just bad info having been fed the artist at the time.
#15 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2006 6:05:56	From everything I've heard about Dark Sun, Brom (the artist) was about as involved in developing the world as the rest of the team. At least that's what Tim Brown said. From what I gather, it's doubtful that he had "wrong info."
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 23, 2006 8:47:56	From everything I've heard about Dark Sun, Brom (the artist) was about as involved in developing the world as the rest of the team. At least that's what Tim Brown said. From what I gather, it's doubtful that he had "wrong info." The problem is... there was significant "left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing" issues in TSR at the time. Brom developed things artistically with one style, and then later, when he left, the artists who replaced him really had even less comprehension with the setting.
#17 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2006 17:02:31	The problem is... there was significant "left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing" issues in TSR at the time. Brom developed things artistically with one style, and then later, when he left, the artists who replaced him really had even less comprehension with the setting. Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr."
#18 Pennarin Oct 23, 2006 21:06:46	Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr." Still, the events portrayed on the cover did not occur in any novel, adventure, or expansion. Interpret from it whatever you want, StakeTeriyake. Ours are but possibilities.
#19 zombiegleemax Oct 23, 2006 21:41:10	I can see it now... Early 90's at TSR... "Draw whatever, man. Nobody cares what accounting says, you'll still get paid." And I never noticed until just now that there was a ruined tower in the background of that pic.
#20 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 24, 2006 12:40:58	Forgive me if I sound crass, or ignorant at having missed your point, but I was talking about Brom, and not any other artist... specifically, his piece on the cover of "City State of Tyr." And I'm saying that even Brom wasn't completely privy to all information. There was a fundamental breakdown in communication across ALL of TSR when Dark Sun had come about. That's why TSR materials from that time seem a bit disjointed. Game developers were kept from communicating with novelists who were kept from communicating with artists -- they would all communicate through some intermediary, who wasn't knowledgeable in the game or setting at all, and seemed to regularly mess everything up. The results are... Brom was told to draw something that isn't in the game. Denning wrote something in his novels that doesn't appear in the gaming materials. Abbey had to attempt to piece everything together as best she could while being kept from direct communication with anybody on the Dark Sun project. And the chain continues... So therefore, while what Brom did is incredible, just because Brom drew it doesn't automatically mean that it 100% correct to the setting. Just like any of the other Dark Sun developers throughout the TSR time. TSR collapsed internally, with a strong reason for it being due to horrible communication breakdowns. Dark Sun's list of errors, inconsistancies, and outright contradictions are all signs of this breakdown.
#21 cnahumck Oct 24, 2006 19:50:00	to try to get this thing back on track, with the current 3.5 rules, dragons move through the process with epic spells. So with this, you can add things to the epic spells, making them harder, to gain whatever benifits you and your DM work out. Up stregth, Give up sleep, permenant spell effects, energy resistance, anything you want. It is really just a question of spell DC and what you are willing to sacrifice for it. sky's the limit.
#22 squidfur- Oct 25, 2006 3:35:18	The cover of CSoT appears to be an alternate universe where Kalak succeeded at his transformation, leaving the Golden Tower in ruins in the background. ...although I'm sure its not and its just bad info having been fed the artist at the time. problem with this theory is that the same type of creature appears in the background on the cover of Slave Tribes.
#23 cnahumck Oct 25, 2006 6:47:17	just think of it as a New Race or Tower Freak
#24 redkank_dup Oct 25, 2006 7:18:50	Yeah, there are loads of illustrations (especially by Baxa) that are of no race I recognise - I always assume them to be human mutations or new races of some kind or other.