Rifllian has about 1,700 "mostly elves" but what else ?
Rifllian has about 1,700 "mostly elves" but what else ?
I haven't got the PWAs here, but I've looked the data up in some discussions we had on the Italian MMB, and it seems that PWA 1-3 sets the number of Callarii elves to 30000, and those of Vyalia elves to 10000.
These numbers may be a somewhat high, though, if you consider that Alfheim has only 63000 elves according to the GAZ.
Consider that one minor Alfheimer clan has less than 4000 elves, and major ones cannot have more than 6-8000. Even if the Callarii were equivalent to a major clan, the total number of 30000 seems really too much.
OTOH, Erewan has a population of 26000, though not necessarily all elves (but still probably a large majority of elves).
So, I'd say anywhere between 8000 and 30000 would be a good guess.
The official population is too few to maintain an ostensibly medieval/low Renaissance culture as the region has... the vastly greater number of humans and humanoids would simply overrun the elves, magic forest or no.
I think I recalculated the Callarii numbers, too. I'll need to dig that up.
The official population is too few to maintain an ostensibly medieval/low Renaissance culture as the region has... the vastly greater number of humans and humanoids would simply overrun the elves, magic forest or no.
Well, it's exactly what happened -- the SE overrun the elves.
Note that the elves can't compare to a medieval/renaissance culture, since their use of the land is much less intensive (mostly careful hunting and gathering, with small gardens), so the population density must be significantly lower.
GP
I think the numbers given in the PWAs are perhaps overestimated. 8,000 elves is enough for a medium-sized clan like the Callarii, spread among the various forests of the Grand Duchy; in fact they inhabit not only the Radlebb Woods and the eastern Dymrak Forests, but also the forested hills south of Highforge (stille according to GAZ1), and a clan also the Achelos Woods (see the background of the pregenerated PC Kavva Lindenelm, in M5).
Moreover, the whole Vyalia clan numbers about 10,000 elves (half in Karameikos, the other half in Thyatis), so I would say that the Callarii should number anywhere from 7,500 and 10,000.
Regarding Alfheim, I also think the 75,000 elves listed in GAZ5 are a little to few. I tend to follow the population number given in TM2, which lists 180,500 elves for the Kingdom of Alfheim.
Moreover, the whole Vyalia clan numbers about 10,000 elves (half in Karameikos, the other half in Thyatis)
Given that the Vyalia clan have a dominion in Thyatis, I would probably place only about 15% in Karameikos, and those in Karameikos I would play as being rejectionist towards the idea of Foresters (and hence more distant to humans). That seems (at least to me) to fit better as the Duchy of Machetos (where Stefan is from) is bordered to the north by County Vyalia, so I would expect him to have had considerable dealings with them prior to his takeover of Traladara. And yet in GAZ1 they are hardly mentioned. This, to me anyway, implies some difference in internal clan politics there.
GAZ1 says that according to human envoys of Stefan Karameikos, there are about 7,500 Callarii elves in the central forests of the Grand Duchy.
Thanks. GAZ1 numbers are definitely more reasonable, and fit with what is known of Alfheim.
GP
dramatic effect that the small number of elves has. It must affect their view on the value of life, especially elven life.
I also have used the figure around 200 000 as the population of Alfheim. During the Nomad War in our campaign Alfheim fought on Darokin's side in many decisive battles. The total elven losses were about 2000, which to the Darokin humans seemed quite small. (Darokin lost tens of thousands in soldiers and civilians, and more later due to shortages of food and shelter during winter.)
But to the elves any significant loss of life is huge. There are relatively few elves, and their population growth is small. The reactions of the elves to the war became an important element in the atmosphere of the campaign. It helped to portray the importance of life to them on the one hand, and the diversity of their culture on the other.
- Some clans would become more isolated and even more opposed to taking part in the affairs of the world.
- During the war some elves became enraged and ferocious due to the loss of friends and relatives, engaging in bloody reprisals.
- For some the hatred towards humans awakened once more.
- Others saw it as a signal that the elves must become much more active in order to prevent such losses in the future. (There are for example some who intervene in the resulting Darokinian civil war.)
- Many lose direction during the war, becoming "more human" and drifting like loose leaves.
Regarding Alfheim, I also think the 75,000 elves listed in GAZ5 are a little to few. I tend to follow the population number given in TM2, which lists 180,500 elves for the Kingdom of Alfheim.
Compared to the population of the Shiye-Lawr in Alphatia, who cover an area almost 4 times as large as Alfheim, but who have a listed population of only 55,000, I think the 75,000 mark is a lot more reasonable.
Population figures in general are kind of whacked all around Mystara, though.
Compared to the population of the Shiye-Lawr in Alphatia, who cover an area almost 4 times as large as Alfheim, but who have a listed population of only 55,000, I think the 75,000 mark is a lot more reasonable.
Population figures in general are kind of whacked all around Mystara, though.
But I haven't said I wouldn't change Shiye-Lawrish population. :P
I don't think 75,000 elves is reasonable for Alfheim: the Glantrian Erewans alone number about 26,000 the small Belcadiz elves around 13,000, and the Wendar elves about 200,000; not to talk about Shadow Elves, whose population IIRC is 550,000... When you consider that Alfheim is THE elvish realm and that it has the home of the elven race since BC1800, 75,000 elves seems really low.
Moreover, there's a note in GAZ5 which says that in the 2nd century AC, when the Shadow Elves discovered the surface races and pretended from King Celedryl of Alfheim the gift of half the Canolbarth Forest, their population was about the same as that of the Alfheim elves. So you'd have to decrease SE population or to make the Alfheim one larger; I prefer the latter. ;)
And finally 180,500 elves make a perfect population density for Alfheim, i.e. 0,3 inhabitants per square kilometer, which is ideal for a population of hunter-gatherers. This obviously don't includes the population of Alfheim Town. Probably the Shiye-Lawr's population density is even lower, becouse Shiyes are more reservate and isolationist than Alfheim elves, and I imagine their forest even darker.
I recall King Doriath went to Wendar... Is there a record in the Literature on which clans went with him & which went to Karameikos? Or would we have to derive from the most likely alliances from GAZ Elves of Alfheim...
Our group started in the Red D&D boxed set, went to the Expert Set (the Known World) & used a few things from the Companion set before we switched to AD&D (Greyhawk - boxed set). Our campaign ended in High School & skipped playing during the entire 2nd edition before we started back with 3E.
We have been playing in Greyhawk but the players are wanting to "Come Home" and retire these characters to what they now know as Mystara (as opposed to the Elf from Alfheim, the Dwarf from Rockhome, & the Gelfling & Podling from the Lost Valley in the Duch of Karameikos :-)
These characters actually started at 1st level & are now for-real 22d, 20th, 12th, & 12th levels... We played pre Gazetter & we didn't have much money for modules way back then, so I have been collecting the old materials needed to bring a good campaign together during the Wrath of the Immortals time period.
So we get to use the hints from the Literature to play out what leads to the situation with the Elves of Alfheim & the Dwarves of Rockhome!
So, where do each of the elven clans end up after they flee Alfheim?
Thanks much for any information.
So, where do each of the elven clans end up after they flee Alfheim?
This has come up a bit over the years, most recently on the Mystara Mailing List. Here's a post that I responded to that addresses the question.
In short:
The Stalker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Does anyone recall if there is any official or even semi-official (such as
>in the MAs) word on where the various elven clans from former Alfheim
>settled in Karameikos?
You pretty much have hit the only sources, "canon" and Fanonical (Hey! I just made a word!), on the issue. As you noted, all of them are in conflict.
IIRC, the first "official" word came from Bruce Heard in one of the Known World Grimoires (or Q&A session of VotPA) where he gave suggestions for which clans went where.
Unfortunately, as you point out, at least some of these are contradicted in some of the Almanacs that come out later from TSR. Not the first time some of Bruce's information in Dragon was contradicted though- a lot of his "errata" for PWA 1010 that he noted in the Known World Grimoire didn't seem to have been incoporated into the later almanacs either.
Then later, when putting together the first MA, Fabrizio Paoli came up with yet another division of the elves, as it were. The later MAs all went with Fabrizio's divisions, so that is the most recent word on the matter.