Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 11:41:41	Throughout the history of Athas there is no mention of these races, then in a snapshot taken in Free Year 500 the Elan and the Maenads are a presence enough on the tablelands to warrant them as player character races. The Pristine Tower makes new races all the time, is there any sort of origin story in regards to these races at all? Any information or ideas out there?
#2 kalthandrix Nov 01, 2006 12:02:44	I have nothing consrtuctive for you - the Paizo version has no place in my world - they tried to make the world too simular to the standard setting that it IMO loses it flavor.
#3 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 12:24:51	But as a 500 years into the future thing I still consider it canonical. IT may be Dark Sun with teh edge taken away, but if you consider it from a story point of view, it is like the calm before the storm. Think about it, 500 years of Tyr Storms dumping water all over the Tablelands... The Storm that pours on Ur-Draxa eternally... Im not going to say that the oceans are starting to come back, but maybe, just maybe, enough moisture has returned for the Ur-Draxans to have about 100 years of proper Green Age worthy yields on their harvests in the moist borders outside of the storm. And now they are on an invasion fleet to take revenge against the Sorcerer-Monarchs that killed Borys!! Mwa-ha-ha-ha!!
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 12:25:47	But I digress. I think the Elan and the Maenads should have some sort of story SOMEWHERE about why they are all over the place...
#5 cnahumck Nov 01, 2006 12:40:30	if you wanted to, the elans coudl have a place, they would just need to be "created" between now and then. Same thing could go for the Maenads. Just make them some new type of created slave race or something. like muls and half-giants. personally though, i would not bother. i like athas.org much much much better than piazo. but, that is me.
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 12:51:32	I don't care about the rules so much. I'm trying to put together the broad story line. Athas.org can fuss about rules all day long but without the development of more campaign material, Dark Sun is going to go nowhere.
#7 cnahumck Nov 01, 2006 13:05:39	then i recommend a small bit of patience. part of the reason it has taken so long is that the requirement for the "official" stuff from athas.org is that they have everything updated to 3.5. this means that the setting rules must be hammered out (i think they are very very close to perfect) and that has been the focus. There are some projects in the wings, being worked on that will be out soon that will develop the story and the area more. patience, good athasian, patience...
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Nov 01, 2006 13:39:08	Part of why we fuss about the rules is that Athas.org is authorized to convert the rules from the 2E books to 3.5E (in fact, mandated to do so, if memory serves). However we are not authorized to copy the fluff/setting material found in existing published books (which is why there is no new "Wanderer's Journal" released by Athas.org, and why Athas.org needs people who can draw all of the Athasian creatures/monsters for our new monster supplement, because we can't reuse pictures that were in already published works). We *can* make new material that is what is covered in those books, but it has to be completely original. The first goal has been get the Core rules out, and the materials people need in order to play/run a 3.5E Dark Sun campaign. Second is to get new material out, including finally being able to release the two Dark Sun campaign aids/books that were left unpublished when TSR died -- Dregoth Ascending & Secrets of the Deadlands; both of which advance & add to the storyline. On top of that, there is the "Trembling Plains" (Lost Cities) supplement which details the two lost City-States of Eldaarich & Kurn, that from what I've seen, are being taken very seriously, and done with extreme detail and care. There also is books on arms & equipment, the afore-mentioned monster manual/guide, the Epic rules for Dark Sun (Advanced Beings), etc. A lot is happening, it just is that these things take time -- Everyone at Athas.org is working on this in their spare time, it isn't our jobs -- so please bear with us.
#9 kalthandrix Nov 01, 2006 14:14:28	I don't care about the rules so much. I'm trying to put together the broad story line. Athas.org can fuss about rules all day long but without the development of more campaign material, Dark Sun is going to go nowhere. I have to chime in here as a parttime aid on some of the material being currently produced for Athas.org. Though I am not part of Athas.org, I have been working with may others on the current project and when I hear someone complaining that material is not being produced fast enough or we need something more all I have to say is this - Either volenteer your time and effort to getting the material written, or sit back and zip it - no one is getting paid to make this stuff and we all have real lives to deal with as well, so anytime we spend on these products is time we give up being with family and working on other things. And way do we do this - for love of the game. So if you want to do something and love the game, and feel that there is an area of interest you want to develope then help out or just wait!
#10 cnahumck Nov 01, 2006 14:28:35	And as another outside helper: it's worth the wait.
#11 redkank_dup Nov 01, 2006 15:16:41	...because we can't reuse pictures that were in already published works... Really? Then how come Tyrian Conspiracy has artwork and maps from TSR products all through the document?
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Nov 01, 2006 16:00:28	Really? Then how come Tyrian Conspiracy has artwork and maps from TSR products all through the document? Let me ammend my statement: most previously-published artwork. There is a list of things that Athas.org does have permission to use.
#13 mouthymerc Nov 01, 2006 19:35:48	Throughout the history of Athas there is no mention of these races, then in a snapshot taken in Free Year 500 the Elan and the Maenads are a presence enough on the tablelands to warrant them as player character races. The Pristine Tower makes new races all the time, is there any sort of origin story in regards to these races at all? Any information or ideas out there? Do you mean beyond what was supplied in the Dragon 319 issue?
#14 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 19:55:36	Part of why we fuss about the rules is that Athas.org is authorized to convert the rules from the 2E books to 3.5E (in fact, mandated to do so, if memory serves). However we are not authorized to copy the fluff/setting material found in existing published books (which is why there is no new "Wanderer's Journal" released by Athas.org, and why Athas.org needs people who can draw all of the Athasian creatures/monsters for our new monster supplement, because we can't reuse pictures that were in already published works). We *can* make new material that is what is covered in those books, but it has to be completely original. I was the original art director for athas.org. My picture of Sadira is what is on the opening page! I have asked several times of Brax and whoever of a list of creatures that you don't have art for yet. I submitted a few sketches for Wisdom of the Drylanders but I haven't recieved any feedback yet. Anyhoo.. I am very very VERY well aware of the pace of the development of athas.org stuff. I've submitted a few pics once in a while over the past few years since I was still contributing and I never hear from anyone. I think that I'm still very unpopular. PM me please! BTW, When did the campaign material start being called fluff? I think in an RPG the 'fluff' would be what is important. In fact when you are in the middle a good story/rpg session I would consider the rules 'fluff'. But what I'm asking for is conjecture and ideas about the origins of the the two new Paizo races from the fan community, not an official version from athas.org. So.. any ideas out there? Could the Maenad be a people who survived an assult by Drakes? I village that was put under a curse by Hamanu? Does anyone have anything going for their campaign?
#15 zombiegleemax Nov 01, 2006 20:10:35	Do you mean beyond what was supplied in the Dragon 319 issue? Naturally! It says that the Elans were made by the Order. BUT elans start their lives as humans and then undergo a psionic process to become a new life. (I would be thinking more like a template then a race.) It also says the Conclaves of the Elan are only 25 years old at the oldest (obviously from the 500 years in the future point of view) , but if there is enough of them walking around to warrent them as a PC race within 25 years, and humans are being converted in some sort of cult or abduction, would the Elan be viewed as some sort of plague? The secret psionic agents are now increibly numerous, is it like some sort of Elan Pandora's Box? So... what do they believe? How do they spend their day? How do they choose humans to be more Elan? Is the process always concentual? And the Maenads followed Andropinious from the Black. They were imprisioned on an elemental plane of Dust and Crystal. They are angry but they have reserve and only talk when they have to. Kinda like Romulans. The Maenad hordes conquered Balic, but then scattered. How did they get imprisioned? What do they have to say about their own history? What is the actual source of their rage? there sure are alot of them hanging around for knopwing next to nothing about them... Any thoughts? Ideas?
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Nov 01, 2006 21:03:18	BTW, When did the campaign material start being called fluff? I think in an RPG the 'fluff' would be what is important. In fact when you are in the middle a good story/rpg session I would consider the rules 'fluff'. Fluff has been the term that has somehow come into use on these forums for the campaign/setting material -- originally I believe it was a (sub)conscious effort to minimize and/or belittle the setting material in favor of crunchy mechanics, however I've seen people regularly use the term now so much, I threw it in so people used to it, would understand what I mean.
#17 cnahumck Nov 01, 2006 21:15:50	Fluff has been the term that has somehow come into use on these forums for the campaign/setting material -- originally I believe it was a (sub)conscious effort to minimize and/or belittle the setting material in favor of crunchy mechanics, however I've seen people regularly use the term now so much, I threw it in so people used to it, would understand what I mean. I like to think of fluff as the stuff that makes the rules worth using. The way I see it, the rules give you a framework to work with, and the fluff fills is out and makes it what it is. Rules=skeleton, fluff=the rest of what makes you who you are. you need both, and they effect each other equally, but IMO fluff is much more important.
#18 manyfist Nov 01, 2006 23:44:47	I really dislike Paizo's DarkSun concept. Its too much like the normal default setting, which is boring. Also the fact that everything has an LA is a bit crazy. Athas.org imo is the best thing that has happen to this campaign setting in years. Although people need to start drawing pics and stuff, for a visual/descriptive DMs/Players the old art differ from one person to the other. The images in the 3.0 version were horrible to say the least.
#19 mouthymerc Nov 02, 2006 1:24:59	And the Maenads followed Andropinious from the Black. They were imprisioned on an elemental plane of Dust and Crystal. They are angry but they have reserve and only talk when they have to. Kinda like Romulans. The Maenad hordes conquered Balic, but then scattered. How did they get imprisioned? What do they have to say about their own history? What is the actual source of their rage? there sure are alot of them hanging around for knopwing next to nothing about them... Any thoughts? Ideas? It could be that the Maeneds, as a race, were a free-living, fun-loving group. Hence the reason they have such wild emotions. They may have lived happily like this until whatever force came along and ousted them from their home. It could be that the force needed a slave race to work crystal mines on the demiplane they were found on. Once the mines played out, the Maenads were abandoned. Left to their own devices, the Maeneds had to survive. This could the reason that led them to bring their emotions under control, restraining themselves. They could not be running around with their wild emotions and expect to survive this ordeal. This led them to the state they are in now. Andropinus finds them and, with him, they seize their chance to escape. Just some thoughts.
#20 mouthymerc Nov 02, 2006 6:34:44	It says that the Elans were made by the Order. BUT elans start their lives as humans and then undergo a psionic process to become a new life. (I would be thinking more like a template then a race.) It also says the Conclaves of the Elan are only 25 years old at the oldest (obviously from the 500 years in the future point of view) , but if there is enough of them walking around to warrent them as a PC race within 25 years, and humans are being converted in some sort of cult or abduction, would the Elan be viewed as some sort of plague? The secret psionic agents are now increibly numerous, is it like some sort of Elan Pandora's Box? So... what do they believe? How do they spend their day? How do they choose humans to be more Elan? Is the process always concentual? Any thoughts? Ideas? As hokey as it sounds, I had this in mind when thinking of the Elans. Back in the Phantom Menace, when Qui-Gon is speaking with Anakin's mother, she tells him that Anakin was not conceived normally. This leads you to believe that possibly the Force created him. I was thinking of something similar with Elans and psionics. I think that there were probably earlier Elans created by psionic energy, but it took the Order years to determine this and then find a way of duplicating the proccess. Its only in recent years that the Order has succeeded. Although, not in the way that they had hoped. Another thought I had was to use the mechanics for the Elan, but treat them as the Villichi. Just some thoughts.
#21 jesterjeff Nov 02, 2006 10:39:02	There's an idea, Elan as the male counterpart to the Villichi. Sort of a... random births sometimes bring forth something a bit more than human, a male with the Will and the Way running through his blood. Able to heal by Will alone, able to feed and drink from his own psionic potential. Elans have a similar birthrate to the Villichi, and like them are sterile.".....unless maybe if an Elan and Villichi find each other?:D
#22 manyfist Nov 02, 2006 16:52:30	There's an idea, Elan as the male counterpart to the Villichi. Sort of a... random births sometimes bring forth something a bit more than human, a male with the Will and the Way running through his blood. Able to heal by Will alone, able to feed and drink from his own psionic potential. Elans have a similar birthrate to the Villichi, and like them are sterile.".....unless maybe if an Elan and Villichi find each other?:D I thought Villichi were sterile as well? I always thought so because never has a Villichi birthed another Villichi. I could be wrong.
#23 jesterjeff Nov 02, 2006 16:55:36	exactually. my idea is they're both sterile...with evryone but each other.....sort of two mutant strains that need each other.
#24 zombiegleemax Nov 02, 2006 19:12:17	So far from the material written, the Elan are created by a process invented by The Order within the last century, and the Villichi are born naturally to humans 1 out of 100,000 births and it has always been that way. So if their is a link between the two, the Elan are being made BECAUSE of the Villichi.
#25 ripvanwormer Nov 03, 2006 16:16:48	There was a very good take on elans on ENWorld, here.
#26 manyfist Nov 03, 2006 16:22:16	I like the idea Elans are only Male, since Villichi are only female. I would rule that for every Elan created the left over energy finds its way into a Female Human Fetus. Creating an equal between the two "races" yet they know not of eachother.
#27 zombiegleemax Nov 04, 2006 0:37:05	I like the idea Elans are only Male, since Villichi are only female. I would rule that for every Elan created the left over energy finds its way into a Female Human Fetus. Creating an equal between the two "races" yet they know not of eachother. But the Villichi have been around since the Green Age (at least since before the Free Year calander), and The Elan started making their appearance around Free Year 275 when they started being created by The Order. How do you make that work?
#28 Oninotaki Nov 04, 2006 1:59:45	But the Villichi have been around since the Green Age (at least since before the Free Year calander), and The Elan started making their appearance around Free Year 275 when they started being created by The Order. How do you make that work? Maybe the order figured out how to capture the souls of what should have been the male Villichi and put them in the shells of humans whose souls they obliterate.
#29 zombiegleemax Nov 04, 2006 3:04:52	Maybe the order figured out how to capture the souls of what should have been the male Villichi and put them in the shells of humans whose souls they obliterate. Ew! That's freaking creepy! I like it!
#30 manyfist Nov 04, 2006 3:57:51	Thats a good idea. You could say that Villichi souls are actually parasites that "Delete" the hosts soul of the unborn Female Child. In a sense the original soul would been deleted and the Villichi soul would take root. The Male body on the other hand the Villichi souls couldn't "Delete" the original souls thus no Male Villichi. The Order came around (The Order could be several "rengade" Villichi) and found that some Male Humans have been born without a soul. The Order would place the souless Human with a Villichi soul but instead the body consumes the soul creating the Immortality of the body.
#31 thebrax Nov 04, 2006 21:47:36	Let me ammend my statement: most previously-published artwork. There is a list of things that Athas.org does have permission to use. Where is that list?
#32 jon_oracle_of_athas Nov 05, 2006 4:02:11	As far as I know, we (athas.org) can use art that previously appeared in former DS products, as long as we include a copyright reference in direct proximity of the art piece. Correct me if I´m wrong, Gab.
#33 redkank_dup Nov 05, 2006 6:45:58	OK, well that would be cool if you could do that. But yah, I imagine that y'all would prefer to use new art. DS repeated and recycled artwork often enough in 2e - I for one am happy to see all-original artwork in Burnt World of Athas products. The artwork in those Dregoth adventures was killer.
#34 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Nov 06, 2006 2:03:48	As far as I know, we (athas.org) can use art that previously appeared in former DS products, as long as we include a copyright reference in direct proximity of the art piece. Correct me if I´m wrong, Gab. My mistake/misinterpretation of what I thought I had been told before.
#35 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2006 9:22:37	The Order came around (The Order could be several "rengade" Villichi) and found that some Male Humans have been born without a soul. The Order would place the souless Human with a Villichi soul but instead the body consumes the soul creating the Immortality of the body. The Order is the Epic-level psionic cabal on Athas. The main requirement of those guys are that you are an amazingly powerful psionicist. Maybe a renegade Villichi that is in the order is the one that cam up with the plan... -J
#36 gab Nov 21, 2006 11:28:31	Sorry for the delay. Jon is correct: we're allowed to use art that was in Dark Sun products, as long as it's only a few per product that we release, and that we include a copyright notice on the artwork (or very close).