Originally Posted by DracoChapel
Is it possible Oronis has stopped at the stage of transformation that he is at because he is worried about an 'animalistic stage', similar to how Nibenay was waiting?
After all if Oronis is the first avangion how does he know how the transformation will go? at least with dragons they have Borys as an idea, and why should Oronis feel his would be any different (at least in regards to the animalism).
At the stage he is in (4ish), he would know the peaceful nature of the process he is undergoing - no rages and no hunger for power IMO - where as the dragon would feel something different, a desire for more of the same or greater power.
We have to remember that dragon and defilers are more like addicts - they crave the heady rush of power they get when they power their spells.
And there is the motivation factor we have to remember - dragons advance for power, whereas IMO avangions would advance in order to aid others and to help - but difference.
Switching to semi-serious mode:We have to remember that dragon and defilers are more like addicts - they crave the heady rush of power they get when they power their spells.
There are different sorts of power and even addiction and they aren't all bad. I really miss being addicted to my jogger's high. Took no effort to bounce out of bed at 5am to go work out, and I felt better about myself and more *powerful* than in my more sedentary condition today. There were restrictions about it -- if I didn't work out it *really* screwed me up that day, worse than one of my regular days now. But I'd love to get that addiction back.
Self-control is a form of power, and I'd say that it's a good form of power, whereas dragonhood involves losing control over yourself and asserting control over everyone and everything else, eventually consuming everything around you.
But while I was joking about vermin and bug and animalistic frenzy, I think there's something serious to be said about compelling and even frightening new desires. Transformation *cannot* be a mentally comfortable, purely serene experience.
Especially if you're the first of your kind, or as far as you know, the only one of your kind.
Hell, it's got to be at least as awkward as puberty.
Light? Sharing of ideas? Physical sensations anathema to normal humans but now natural to a bug, like flying? Freedom of movement? Fear of confined spaces? Since you now emit light...is your perception of light changed somehow? Like...maybe now the night and the dark is no longer frightening at a gut level, instead its just a transitory state before light comes again.
There's some possibility here, to be exploited.
OK, if you want to make a serious response to my jest, I can play that game too
Naaaa - I am not all that wrapped up in this- just trying to spur on some conversation and debate.
I would argue your use of jogging as an addiction - (and you will hate me for this - but :P )- Webster defines addiction as a
compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
So if we use your example, the only way we can say you were an addict was if you began jogging compulsively and in a kind of self destructive or harmful manner.
I do believe that dragons and defilers fall within this definition as their actions are, in the long term as they destroy the world, greatly harmful to themselves (a to others, but that is a different thread :P).
I will go along with the idea that the avangion does change, not only physically due to the spell, but also mentally, becoming something else, but who is to say that those other desires would be strong enough to really drive a wizard/psion of this level of power - because at this stage of the game, these are old dogs and are IMO pretty set upon the goal that drove them to begin the transformation.The very nature of the perserver/psion path is about self control and I do not see how a new need or desire could overwhelm the underlying reason and goals of the avangion.
But to be clear, I do think that there are some slight changes in their preception and maybe some unique desires that are specific to avangions, but like I said, I do not see these new influences would really change the overall desires/goals/perceptions of an avangion.
compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol)
Substances which only are addictive because they mimic the internally created habit-forming substances that we get from certain activities. Hence the term addictive behaviors.
characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal;
So until physicians defined the addictive symptions of heroin, it wasn't addictive?persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
Jogging was harmful. I knew that my jogging habit (which I indulged compulsively to obtain the internal substance to create my jogger's high) was damaging my knees and ankles. But although it did damage, overall, it did more good than harm.
Kind of like preserving magic. It *does* harm plants, takes life out of them, but doesn't waste and destroy, and can be used to do more good. It's a different sort of power.
Seriously, maybe the bug-angle is not as odd as it seems. What if the outlook on life and existence itself is modified by the transformation? Becoming undead makes you different in your outlook already, same happens with immortality, and being a dragon means you're more easily enraged and you hunger life force like the undead themselves....so what do the avangions crave?
Light? Sharing of ideas? Physical sensations anathema to normal humans but now natural to a bug, like flying? Freedom of movement? Fear of confined spaces? Since you now emit light...is your perception of light changed somehow? Like...maybe now the night and the dark is no longer frightening at a gut level, instead its just a transitory state before light comes again.
Yes! Exactly. The word "bug" is inflammatory, but the idea of an insect mentality is right on. There's also precedent for it with the kreen honor for the avangion form.
;) Thanking DracoChapel for this marvelous thread idea:
Interesting. I'd never thought of that idea, but Oronis has gone through the incredible *hunger* as a champion and then dragon (as Abbey described so powerfully). If avangionhood had some sort of similar forward-looking desire, hunger, Oronis would probably react against it, fearing what that sort of desire got him into before.
As Oronis gradually turns himself into a bug, what is it that he craves? Maybe we should analogize to other sorts of metamorphic vermin. ;) IIRC, after butterflies sprout wings, isn't the next step that they want to reproduce? The dating scene has got to be a little rough for him. Maybe Oronis just says he isn't giving out the metamorphosis spell out, because he doesn't want any male competitors in case a he manages to find or make a female avangion.
Wouldn't his rampage actually be a cleaning rampage? Where he summons up buckets of soap and water, and gives all of Athas a good scrubbing? You know, the real "cleansing" wars.
Wouldn't his rampage actually be a cleaning rampage? Where he summons up buckets of soap and water, and gives all of Athas a good scrubbing? You know, the real "cleansing" wars.
Prodigy looks around the reception chamber upon her return to New Kurn.
"The big O painted again???"
"Yeah, who knew the A in Avangion stood for ana-L." replied the Templars.
(the ana-L is because the filters don't allow ****.)
The longing to reproduce is a drive, and not generally considered one of the evil drives. Certainly the growing insect nature would increase this drive, not decrease it.
I know of two sets of recognized drives based on body-generated addictive chemicals:
The adrenergic system (adrenaline): Fight or Flight.
The cholinergic system (acetylcholine): Feed or Breed.
We know from the descriptions that the Dragon emphasizes Fight and Feed.
We know from the descriptions that the Avangion's powers and nature emphasizes Flight.
Might it not also emphasize breed?
Well, he'd be driven to restore Athas one way or another...
...by saving the world; one good humping at a time!!!
...by saving the world; one good humping at a time!!!
As long the sheets are folded and clean. And the floor has been mopped.
OK, underwater cities and doing things slowly over millenia would help preserve some of the creatures, but does anyone think that the thri-kreen as they are today, could survive the return of the Blue Age?
I would suggest that Oronis may think that the true defining characteristic of the Blue Age was that Life in that Age was malleable. Life itself could be modified, altered, improved, transformed in ways that have never since been feasible. I think this is the aspect of the Blue Age that Oronis would be totally focused upon. After all, his own entire life has been focused upon similar processes of transformation.
Oronis is a being whose personal biology has undergone profound changes. He became a Champion. He was transformed into a immortal. He began the transformation into a giant Draconic reptile. He is currently transforming into an insect with superhuman intellect.
Considering the events of his own life, how could Oronis not be utterly obsessed with the concept of the transformation of Life? And given that he recognizes that Athas must change the path it is on, if it is to survive, how could he not desperately wish to regain the ancient powers of the Blue Age? Without those powers, how can the whole world be transformed and raised into a higher state of being as he has been transformed and raised?
So what is going on in New Kurn? I would suggest the intensive study of the nature of life. Oronis is trying to reinvent the ancient technologies of the life shapers. We've known from the first mention of that city that Oronis's templars in New Kurn are focused on the study of ecology. They make sure that no species in New Kurn goes extinct. I'd suggest that they may also be trying to create new species.
I find it interesting that Oronis has allowed Kurn society to suffer from inbreeding. If the local population is so small that all kinds of recessive traits are coming to the surface, why doesn't Oronis just buy a lot of slaves from the Tablelands for his people to breed with? Unless Oronis wants those recessive genes to manifest themselves. Perhaps he finds them instructive. Perhaps he's weeding out the worst recessive genes from Kurn's population. Do you discuss this issue in your new book on Kurn, Brax?
The question, Brax, is what does Oronis consider to be the defining characteristic of the Blue Age? When he says he wants to restore the Blue Age, does he mean he wants to raise the water level back to where it was? Does it mean he wants to change the sun back to the color it was? Does he want to get rid of psionics and magic, neither of which had been developed in the Blue Age? Or are all of the above mere incidental features, none of which truly describe what Oronis considers to be the true meaning and significance of the Blue Age? I suspect he cares no more about these than he cares about restoring the ancient hairstyles once favored by the ancient halflings.
I would suggest that Oronis may think that the true defining characteristic of the Blue Age was that Life in that Age was malleable. Life itself could be modified, altered, improved, transformed in ways that have never since been feasible. I think this is the aspect of the Blue Age that Oronis would be totally focused upon. After all, his own entire life has been focused upon similar processes of transformation.
Oronis is a being whose personal biology has undergone profound changes. He became a Champion. He was transformed into a immortal. He began the transformation into a giant Draconic reptile. He is currently transforming into an insect with superhuman intellect.
Considering the events of his own life, how could Oronis not be utterly obsessed with the concept of the transformation of Life? And given that he recognizes that Athas must change the path it is on, if it is to survive, how could he not desperately wish to regain the ancient powers of the Blue Age? Without those powers, how can the whole world be transformed and raised into a higher state of being as he has been transformed and raised?
So what is going on in New Kurn? I would suggest the intensive study of the nature of life. Oronis is trying to reinvent the ancient technologies of the life shapers. We've known from the first mention of that city that Oronis's templars in New Kurn are focused on the study of ecology. They make sure that no species in New Kurn goes extinct. I'd suggest that they may also be trying to create new species.
Interesting. I'd think he'd be nervous about that given that every catastrophe in Athasian history came from that sort of tampering, from the brown tide to the cleansing wars.
On the other hand ... I've been developing this idea of Kurn's Great Library ... bringing knowledge together ... most of all knowledge about the extinct races. I see Oronis as trying to atone for his role in the cleansing wars by gathering knowledge of peoples and cultures that the Cleansing wars obliterated. Including the lost elven culture, since even though Elves survived physically, they lost who they were, like the feral halflngs. You've given me an interesting idea, though. What if Oronis actually wanted to re-create the dead races? To reverse the damage of the cleansing wars?
But ... is deliberately nature-bending a sentient creature a good act? How many people do you know that would agree to become another species? Is Oronis another Dregoth, to remake his people in his own image?
I find it interesting that Oronis has allowed Kurn society to suffer from inbreeding. If the local population is so small that all kinds of recessive traits are coming to the surface, why doesn't Oronis just buy a lot of slaves from the Tablelands for his people to breed with?
What you're talking about is one possible response to inbreeding; it doesn't stop the inbreeding from happening to begin with. The WC says that Oronis cut Kurn off from all trade and traffic with the Tablelands for many King's Ages; that's just a fact we have to accept, since we're building on the WC foundation. Small population + isolation = inbreeding. No trade means no buying slaves.
As for why he doesn't do so now, well, I hadn't said that he didn't, but I think it seems implausible and unnecessary:
Implausible: I don't think that a slave forced-breeding program fits the WC's description of Kurn's style of government. Aside from all the freed the slaves and equal rights stuff, there's the issue that Oronis simply is not in charge anymore. The Tribunal is.
Unnecessary: Now that Kurnn has opened its doors, Eldaarish refugees are streaming into Kurn, with the crisis in Raam, a growing number of people from the Tablelands have made their way north as well.
Unless Oronis wants those recessive genes to manifest themselves. Perhaps he finds them instructive. Perhaps he's weeding out the worst recessive genes from Kurn's population.
I do not think that the new personality that the WC attributes to Oronis would mix well with a systematic regime of genetic experimentation on his own people. And again, he's not governing his people any more, let alone holding the sort of totalitarian power that he'd have to exercise to do what you suggest.
Do you discuss this issue in your new book on Kurn, Brax
My CSoK notes have information on the large number of blind that Prodigy mentioned, infertility, and other symptoms of inbreeding. It will be a while until CSoK comes out, but this upcoming project, the regional supp, has general information on Kurn. New Kurn is farther off still than CSoK and I've decided to not be a part of that project. I'm not sure any two people can agree on what Utopia is, let alone what Utopia in Dark Sun would look like. I won't be a part of a project unless I'm confident that I can be true to the sources and true to the spirit of Dark Sun, and I don't know how to do that with New Kurn. I love the idea of the secret utopia, mind you; I'm just not confident of my ability to describe it, and would rather focus my attentions on something that I can do well.
What I will do, if I'm still around when we do CSoK (which seems less likely every day that we go over our timeline on LC
) is explain the extraordinary methods that Oronis and his people use to keep the secret of New Kurn from strangers and spies. And yes, Eldaarich has spies in Kurn.(Don't ask me if they have spies in New Kurn; I'm not developing New Kurn, except possibly for one artifact and one place of power connected to stuff in the Kurn material. AFAIK Eldaarich does not know about New Kurn, but the Order does, since Prodigy's defection).
I'll give one hint: while Kurn does suffer from problems associated from inbreeding, these problems are less severe than they seem. Take the infertility, for example. Kurnan couples with children want to raise them in New Kurn's utopia. So a disproportionate number of childless couples live in "old" Kurn. The more kids in the family, the more likely they are to go stay in New Kurn.
I know of two sets of recognized drives based on body-generated addictive chemicals:
The adrenergic system (adrenaline): Fight or Flight.
The cholinergic system (acetylcholine): Feed or Breed.
We know from the descriptions that the Dragon emphasizes Fight and Feed.
We know from the descriptions that the Avangion's powers and nature emphasizes Flight.
Might it not also emphasize breed?
So - based upon this and some of the material you just mentioned of Oronis building a utopia and the whole recreation of races and such, it is quite possible that his is where we could say that Oronis is fulfilling the "breed" impluse; not his personal breeding of mini-me's, but instead the paternial impluses and the desire for him to grow his population and restore those lost during the Cleansing Wars.
One reason that I insisted on leaving New Kurn out of LC, other than the fact that it's not part of the Trembling Plains and doesn't interact with it, is that I don't want to be the one to describe something that I don't understand. I get Kurn, I get Eldaarich, but I do not understand why or how Oronis could want to restore the Blue Age. After all that he's done and repented from, why would he want to flood the Crimson Savanah. Doesn't he know that raising the sea level to Blue Age levels would kill off many species, sentient and not sentient? Even if he managed to bring all of the people and creatures to higher ground, there would not be enough land on Athas for people to live on.
I can only imagine you are kidding here.
What Oronis wants, like Hamanu in RaFoaDK, is to bring back a mix of Blue and Green Age. He wants to bring back water cities, like Venice, or Tyr'Agi must have been. He must understand that to feed people and give them living space, not to mention the animal and plant life, thus preserving the sanctity of present times' genesis (if I may use that term), he must artificially create an environment most compatible with today's conditions...hence the picture we have in the WC: canals, lakes, lots of green.
I see no problem with that. (Actually quite liking it!)
Actual Blue Age ressurection would mean death to 99% of today's life, so that's a big no-no unless you're called Rajaat and you're EVIL.
There are psych theories that speak of a drive to form attachments, and a crisis (read life event/stage) that deals with the concept of generativity. I think these are also at work in Oronis, as he wants to have attachments to people, and is drawn to them (marrying a mortal, setting up others as rulers that he must interact with as an advisor). This relational push inside of him flies in the face of his remorse. He wants to form attachments, but knows that he is set apart. He is immortal, and they will die. Also, he knows what he has done, and he knows what it is possible for him to still do.
Finally, generativity tells us that we all want to make a difference in the world, that we want to contribute something. I think that the preserver metamorphosis, coupled with his own need for personal redemption makes it so that he has an unnatural need to restore the planet. With the power of a SK, and the Preserver Metamorphosis, he has the ability to do a lot of good, and make a lot of improvements. That being said, his remorse and self doubt get in the way of this, and he second guesses EVERYTHING that he wants to do, because he is afraid that he will use his power to kill off others, even if accidental.
I doubt he wants a water world from the Blue Age, because he knows that too many things would die. He wouldn’t want that on his conscience. I think he would want something else, a middle ground, where the abundant life of the Blue Age existed. I think that Oronis is driven to help create life, but gets in his own way.
I can only imagine you are kidding here.
What Oronis wants, like Hamanu in RaFoaDK, is to bring back a mix of Blue and Green Age. He wants to bring back water cities, like Venice, or Tyr'Agi must have been. He must understand that to feed people and give them living space, not to mention the animal and plant life, thus preserving the sanctity of present times' genesis (if I may use that term), he must artificially create an environment most compatible with today's conditions...hence the picture we have in the WC: canals, lakes, lots of green.
I see no problem with that. (Actually quite liking it!)
Actual Blue Age ressurection would mean death to 99% of today's life, so that's a big no-no unless you're called Rajaat and you're EVIL.
Ah, now that makes sense.
I'll have to send you my Celik file since it's clear that I'll not have time to develop it
Very much based on Venice, with canals breaking up different elevated districts. It took my players a while to figure out "why these guys built the districts so far above the street level."Interesting. I'd think he'd be nervous about that given that every catastrophe in Athasian history came from that sort of tampering, from the brown tide to the cleansing wars.
On the other hand ... I've been developing this idea of Kurn's Great Library ... bringing knowledge together ... most of all knowledge about the extinct races. I see Oronis as trying to atone for his role in the cleansing wars by gathering knowledge of peoples and cultures that the Cleansing wars obliterated. Including the lost elven culture, since even though Elves survived physically, they lost who they were, like the feral halflngs. You've given me an interesting idea, though. What if Oronis actually wanted to re-create the dead races? To reverse the damage of the cleansing wars?
But ... is deliberately nature-bending a sentient creature a good act? How many people do you know that would agree to become another species? Is Oronis another Dregoth, to remake his people in his own image?
I agree that if Oronis was studying life shaping, he would be nervous and very cautious about where his reseach might be taking him. And I was under the impression that he was nervous in precisely that way. The most recent information that's been released on Oronis's current state of mind is found at the start of the latest revision of the Avangion rules. There we find a quote from Oronis that states,
"Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history
remember my hopes with the hopes of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?"
-"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis.
As to the question of who would want to be transformed into a new species, that obviously depends on what the characteristics of that new species might be. How many people would want to become immortal? How many would want to become vastly more intelligent than they currently are? How many would want to no longer suffer from disease? How many would want to be able to fly?
I do not agree that deliberate life shaping is inherantly evil. If one could really safely transform people for the better in ways they strongly desired, then the development of life shaping could be the greatest possible achievement for the cause of Good.
Oronis himself has personally benefited from his own transformation. Is he so selfish that he wants to be the only Avangion, and never share the many advantages he possesses with others? Such selfishness does not seem to me to fit his character.
Sorry coming so late to the discussion, but it makes sense to me that with Oronis, there are two things at work. The first is his guilt and regret which is what made him turn the corner and start the avangion process in the first place. This guilt and regret would come through even now, as he doesn’t want power, and he doesn’t want control. I believe that he no longer trusts himself with it. He has ideas, good ones, but refuses to be the one to implement them. The guilt that he feels hamstrings him in his search for a better Athas. It also actively works against the second thing in him at work.
There are psych theories that speak of a drive to form attachments, and a crisis (read life event/stage) that deals with the concept of generativity. I think these are also at work in Oronis, as he wants to have attachments to people, and is drawn to them (marrying a mortal, setting up others as rulers that he must interact with as an advisor). This relational push inside of him flies in the face of his remorse. He wants to form attachments, but knows that he is set apart. He is immortal, and they will die. Also, he knows what he has done, and he knows what it is possible for him to still do.
Finally, generativity tells us that we all want to make a difference in the world, that we want to contribute something. I think that the preserver metamorphosis, coupled with his own need for personal redemption makes it so that he has an unnatural need to restore the planet. With the power of a SK, and the Preserver Metamorphosis, he has the ability to do a lot of good, and make a lot of improvements. That being said, his remorse and self doubt get in the way of this, and he second guesses EVERYTHING that he wants to do, because he is afraid that he will use his power to kill off others, even if accidental.
I doubt he wants a water world from the Blue Age, because he knows that too many things would die. He wouldn’t want that on his conscience. I think he would want something else, a middle ground, where the abundant life of the Blue Age existed. I think that Oronis is driven to help create life, but gets in his own way.
Good stuff!
Yes, absolutely agreed on second-guessing himself.
When the time comes to choose participants for that book, I'd like a head's up, for I could have ideas. Would-be utopias are fun to create.
Btw, if this quote is accurate....
[INDENT]"Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history remember my hopes with the hopes of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?"
-"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis.[/INDENT]
...then maybe the following would have better flow:
[INDENT]"Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history remember my hopes as it does those of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?"
-"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis[/INDENT].
When you say the current LC, which version is it you last looked at?
How much of the cleansing wars and the obsidian cataclysm, the dead races, etc. do Athasians know about? People sometimes referred to the Wanderer as the Sage, but if you read the WJ, it seems he knows quite little about the history. We take a lot of stuff for granted that characters in the Prism Pentad learned only with great difficulty, under extraordinary circumstances.
I modified the quote at the syntax level, not in the content. There's no need to explain all of this. What I was saying was that the original quote was badly written, and then I provided a way to fix it without modifying what it conveys.
It's like I'm saying you said "weither" and I corrected it to "whether"...
As for the LC version, I meant the entirety of the Trembling Plains documents that I've seen. Getting up to speed with it is like reading a hundred pages book describing an alien society, so I'm finding it hard.
How much of the cleansing wars and the obsidian cataclysm, the dead races, etc. do Athasians know about? People sometimes referred to the Wanderer as the Sage, but if you read the WJ, it seems he knows quite little about the history. We take a lot of stuff for granted that characters in the Prism Pentad learned only with great difficulty, under extraordinary circumstances.
Indeed, Athasians in general know nothing about everything, like we learned in the PP. Only people with time on their hands and access to archives (Alliance) or to privvy info (a druid with his SotL buddy, or Windreaver and Hamanu) know anything else.
I agree that if Oronis was studying life shaping, he would be nervous and very cautious about where his reseach might be taking him. And I was under the impression that he was nervous in precisely that way. The most recent information that's been released on Oronis's current state of mind is found at the start of the latest revision of the Avangion rules. There we find a quote from Oronis that states,
"Nothing on Athas is as dangerous as hope. Each of the destroyers of worlds set out to save or to restore. Will history
remember my hopes with the hopes of Gretch, Rajaat, and the architects of the Pristine Tower?"
-"Wisdom of Sorrow," by Oronis.
Well-argued! You've taken those words in a different direction than I expected, and that's good! I'd also forgotten that the statement was already in our official publications; I thought that Penn was citing my project.
As to the question of who would want to be transformed into a new species, that obviously depends on what the characteristics of that new species might be. How many people would want to become immortal?
Ah! Now you're talking. But to my knowledge the PT's never been used to do something like that on a population scale. The Pyreen are the only race per se that are immortal, to my knowledge, and I'm not even certain that they were a rebirth race in the same sense at the others; they might not even reproduce in the normal way; they could be like villichi, born to people of other races. In terms of simple game mechanics, is that something that we can deal with? In my own 2e campaign years ago, Oronis gave life extensions and fruits of longevity to those that served him, and worked towards making this magic more available. (Amusing anecdote -- after the whole Dragon's Crown adventure when after 4 years of play the rest of the party found out my wife's character had been playing a Kurnan spy, she ended up receiving a fruit of longevity as a reward for her service, and rolled a 12 -- dropping her down to 13 years old :D She decided to retire the character). But this longevity stuff is even more rare and harder to do in 3e.
How many would want to become vastly more intelligent than they currently are? How many would want to no longer suffer from disease?
I suspect the average health care in New Kurn is better than anything in our world, with cure disease spells and such. I don't see that as a big selling point to actually invasively changing what you are.
How many would want to be able to fly?
At what a price, when magical flying is more easily within reach?
I do not agree that deliberate life shaping is inherantly evil. If one could really safely transform people for the better in ways they strongly desired, then the development of life shaping could be the greatest possible achievement for the cause of Good.
That's a viable argument. You are talking about consent and desire now, which is a far cry from your earlier question of buying up slaves to "breed them with his people."
Oronis himself has personally benefited from his own transformation. Is he so selfish that he wants to be the only Avangion, and never share the many advantages he possesses with others? Such selfishness does not seem to me to fit his character.
Whether it seems to fit it or not, that's what the sources say that he's done. I had the same response when I first saw it, but I don't contradict the sources unless they glaringly and irreparably contradict each other.
Now it may be that Oronis has decided to say he's withholding the avangion transformation because he wants to make sure that someone really persistently wants it before allowing it. There are religions on earth that automatically reject wannabe converts at least three times before they let them into the fold.
You were speaking earlier about Oronis experimenting on his people, breeding them, changing them. That angle smacks to me either of naive arrogance or of outright evil. Oronis cannot be naive at this stage. Now he might facilitate change, if it were something that his people truly desired. Or that some of them truly desired. To be true to the sources, we have to recognize that Oronis is not in charge here. He's chosen to turn government over the Kurnan people and the tribunal.
Here's a question for you.
Is he a subject of this government?
Penn, I'm sorry if you intended to just change the syntax, but you changed a verb tense and made the sentence innacurate.
Oh, then know I don't know the rules governing the english language, because I learned the language on my own, not at school. I was not aware I changed the tense of that verb.
Whether I should have written "as it does" or "as it did", that is up to you to fix. All I know is that "remember my hopes with the hopes of" can and should be changed to something better. Isn't there a rule that states you should strive not to repeat words in a phrase, unless its intended?
Usually, when someone says "my X with the Xs of", he's invited to change it to "my X with those of"...
Please, can somebody tell me I'm wrong or right?
Oronis seemed opened to more avangions but now has stopped out of grief, and as for the "drays", that sounds like hubris and megalomania, failings that Oronis seems not to display.
I get the sense that Ylem is arguing that Oronis might want to create many more avangions, or an avangion-like "dray" race. If he's not, the disregard this:
Oronis seemed opened to more avangions but now has stopped out of grief, and as for the "drays", that sounds like hubris and megalomania, failings that Oronis seems not to display.
That was my response as well. The no more avagions thing seems unsatisfying, but it's source. so we have to work with it. OTOH, Ylem now raises the issue of immortality, and that's a good point. Dregoth made the dray look like him but didn't make them immortal. If Oronis could actually make his people immortal, I think the whole life shaping thing would start looking attractive. That's doing something for them, taking it out the the realm of hubris. Assuming of course that the people wanted it, and when you throw immortality into the mix, I think that's a fairly reasonable assumption.
Not for flying, though.
The question I'm asking is is, could Oronis make the entire population of Kurn immortal.
I'm sure Oronis could if he sought to do so, but if he could I doubt he would. Making his people immortal would go against the natural order of things and Oronis seems the type that would avoid in consciously going against that order. He's seeking to restore Athas to a period similar to the early Green Age. By creating a civilization that's ageless it would put a severe drain on New Kurn, and at some point the planet itself, after a few dozen generations.
I'm sure Oronis could if he sought to do so, but if he could I doubt he would. Making his people immortal would go against the natural order of things and Oronis seems the type that would avoid in consciously going against that order.
I'm not sure where you're getting that. Utopia is not the natural order of things. In the natural order of things, many species get hunted into extinction. In the natural order of things. some people go hungry, and the strong dominate the weak.
He's seeking to restore Athas to a period similar to the early Green Age.
Is that what it says?
By creating a civilization that's ageless it would put a severe drain on New Kurn, and at some point the planet itself, after a few dozen generations.
Is that necessarily true? One could change a creature to walk more lightly on the planet, as well as extending its life. Other than Rajaat, I don't see the Pyreen wreaking havoc on Athas.
Note I didn't say ageless; one could have creatures that go through childhood and menopause but then do not deteriorate beyond that.The easiest way I can think of to push a society towards Utopia would be to prolong the lives of those that contribute the most to that society. In the USA, like other countries, we try to stave off chaos and ruin by removing from society those that we think cause the most harm, through prisons. What if New Kurn took the converse tactic, and prolonged the lives of those that did society the most good, keeping them in society? What if the USA still had Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, Alexander Graham Bell, Frederick Douglass, and others of that calibre?
Another thing you're assuming that isn't necessarily true is that Oronis' plans would be confined to Athas. Adapted creatures might be able to live somewhere else. Oronis has to know that the odds are stacked against him. The WC says he believes that if word got out about what he's doing, that the other SKs would take him out. That seems inconsistent with the behavior of the other SKS, who historically only unite or take direct action when their lives & holdings are threatened (e.g. see Dregoth, Kalid-Ma, Sielba), and here Oronis' plans don't threaten the power of the other SKs. But assume that it's true, or at least that Oronis believes it, then Oronis would have a contingency plan. The Genesis power comes to mind. How big would one of those bubbles be after 1000 years?
Anyway, you see why I don't want to write New Kurn, even if I had the time? I see no way to write NK in a way that would satisfy more than a small fraction of the readers. People have drastically different ideas of what Oronis would do, what his plans are, and when we lay them out, we horrify the hell out of each other. A's idea of Utopia sounds like tyranny to B, and B's idea of Utopia sounds like callousness and neglect to A. Most people want to project Oronis as their personal ideal, rather than looking at his story and determine what his ideals are.
I'd rather leave it mostly blank and fill in the details around it. Develop New Kurn only enough to explain how Oronis and the Kurnans act outside Oronha Valley. Let DMs fill in the blanks, and let people continue to slug out their irreconcilable differences about New Kurn. In my humble opinion, 99% of the arguments over New Kurn boil down to our personal philosophical, moral, and religious beliefs, and have very little to do with actual interpretation of the Dark Sun sources.
Oronis knows that immortality brings many problems for life in general, especially a whole population. On Athas there are individual immortals, like Mon Adderath, but that's a far cry from a whole city. The only group of immortal people that's known is the pyreen, and we know what they did of their lifes: wanderings, alone. Its staves off boredom, prevents everlasting grudges that would eventually lead to bloody massacre.
If New Kurnans are made immortal without changing their outlook on life (and I believe that pyreens do have such an outlook as a racial characteristic), they'll eventually kill each other. I'd go bunker too.
So, Oronis understands that change equals creativity, and the best and simplest of all engines of change is the cycle of life which brings deaths and rebirths.
Also, about Sysane's comment on the early Green Age, he might not have used the right term...but he's right in that Oronis' target can't be the actual Blue Age, as in "to cover the whole planet in water", but must instead be to bring back lots of rivers, lakes, and seas, and the oceans too, but keep land masses, green, etc. So....Green Age. Its a matter of nomenclature (maybe I'm not using that term right though).
The WC says he believes that if word got out about what he's doing, that the other SKs would take him out. That seems inconsistent with the behavior of the other SKS, who historically only unite or take direct action when their lives & holdings are threatened (e.g. see Dregoth, Kalid-Ma, Sielba), and here Oronis' plans don't threaten the power of the other SKs.
There is indeed something funky here. The best place I've found that explains why the SKs might kill an avangion, despite the fact that an avangion's actions will mean that the SKs will have more power, etc etc (all that green, you know...), is the short story by Lynn Abbey, found in one of the adventures. That story describes the story of Amiska, proto-avangion who is feared by Hamanu. Basically, that story tells us fans that the SKs do not know what an avangion is, i.e. they don't have access to the lowdown that Dragon Kings and Defilers & Preservers offers us fans, so they're in the dark, and they know only what obscure lore and spell enquiries can reveal about avangions....which is that it spells the SKs' doom...so they fear them.
I believe that if an SK were told the truth about avangions, he might let them be in peace so they will save the world while he's busy destroying it by default.
A's idea of Utopia sounds like tyranny to B, and B's idea of Utopia sounds like callousness and neglect to A.
Written SF shows how one can do near-utopias that aren't f**d-up. That might be one source of inspiration. I happen to read SF.
Most people want to project Oronis as their personal ideal, rather than looking at his story and determine what his ideals are.
I don't believe my own ideas have be skewed or extreme in any way. On the contrary, I find that immortality and other such ideas are not even hinted at in the WC and thus are personal ideas. Such ideas are fine as long as they are agreed upon by the creative team. This one, though, is extreme and I'd go against. I'd also oppose a "dray" idea for Oronis.
If New Kurnans are made immortal without changing their outlook on life
What evidence do you have of a destructive outlook on life in New Kurn? The WC suggests that the society inculcates a fairly non-destructive outlook.
(and I believe that pyreens do have such an outlook as a racial characteristic)
Cough. Rajaat! Cough. That little blip we call the cleansing wars and the preserver Jihad suggests that there's more going on with the Pyreen than a racial characteristic. The WC's emphasis on ugliness as related to his atrocities is odd; the only way I cam make sense out of that is to infer that maybe that someone didn't *recognize* that Rajaat was a pyreen and therefore failed to gather and raise him in their beliefs. That makes more sense to me than "muhahaha I'm destroying the world because I'm ugly."
I agree with Sysane (wow! lol)
Yes, some groups will agree but I defy you to do a specific writeup of NK that as many as 40% of old-timer fans will agree on. It seems to me that you're projecting your beleifs, as here:
Oronis knows that immortality brings many problems for life in general, especially a whole population.
Do you have any supporting evidence from the text, or may I take this as an example of the futility of trying to do anything on New Kurn, because of the inevitable tendency of so many people to project their own beliefs into the utopian society?
On Athas there are individual immortals, like Mon Adderath, but that's a far cry from a whole city. The only group of immortal people that's known is the pyreen, and we know what they did of their lifes: wanderings, alone. Its staves off boredom, prevents everlasting grudges that would eventually lead to bloody massacre.
How exactly do you go from absence of evidence of what a group of immortal people will do, to concluding that such a group would indulge in bloody massacre?
I'd go bunker too.
See that's what this new Kurn argument boils down to, always. You think you would, so you project that on everyone else. It's not really about Dark Sun at that point.
So, Oronis understands that change equals creativity, and the best and simplest of all engines of change is the cycle of life which brings deaths and rebirths.
And you get this from what text? The Book of Pennarin, of course. And if I wrote it, I'd be writing it up from the Book of Brax. Look, a writer's outlook always influences what he writes, but I not only refuse to participate in, I might actually exercise veto on anyone passing off their pure unmitigated philosophical and religious beliefs as Dark Sun material. No matter how nicely it was written.
Also, about Sysane's comment on the early Green Age, he might not have used the right term...but he's right in that Oronis' target can't be the actual Blue Age, as in "to cover the whole planet in water", but must instead be to bring back lots of rivers, lakes, and seas, and the oceans too, but keep land masses, green, etc. So....Green Age. Its a matter of nomenclature (maybe I'm not using that term right though).
I agree that would make more sense. But look at the actual text of the WC, and tell me how you get from that to what you're saying.
There is indeed something funky here. The best place I've found that explains why the SKs might kill an avangion, despite the fact that an avangion's actions will mean that the SKs will have more power, etc etc (all that green, you know...), is the short story by Lynn Abbey, found in one of the adventures. That story describes the story of Amiska, proto-avangion who is feared by Hamanu. Basically, that story tells us fans that the SKs do not know what an avangion is, i.e. they don't have access to the lowdown that Dragon Kings and Defilers & Preservers offers us fans, so they're in the dark, and they know only what obscure lore and spell enquiries can reveal about avangions....which is that it spells the SKs' doom...so they fear them.
Amiska's story is perhaps my favorite in all of the DS stories, but one could read it differently. Remember, in a story in DK, Hamanu killed some other AB. It's not just avangions in particular he's going after. He's afraid of the unknown, yes, but that's unknown people taking on great power. When He killed Kalid-ma and helped kill Dregoth, that was fear of a known danger, since they saw what Borys did after becoming a Dragon.
Hamanu's afraid of people pulling off AB transformations, and after what happened with Borys, he has good reason to be afraid. Here' we're talking about Oronis. He didn't just do this transformation; he did it a long time ago. I think it's fairly obvious that Hamanu would go after a fledgling dragon as vigorously as he does a fledgling avangion.
But that's just logic. Regardless of what I think, the WC says the other SKs would attack Oronis if they knew, so that's how it is.
I believe that if an SK were told the truth about avangions, he might let them be in peace so they will save the world while he's busy destroying it by default.
I suspect you're right, assuming that the SK believed the truth when he heard it.
Written SF shows how one can do near-utopias that aren't f**d-up. That might be one source of inspiration. I happen to read SF.
There's nothing wrong with projecting your philosophical, political, and religious beliefs into your fiction. The problem is, Dark Sun doesn't belong to you or to me, and we owe it to the community to not turn Oronis into our personal moral puppet. "Oronis thinks" should never become a sneaky way of saying "I think." If you don't ever disagree with what you think that Oronis thinks, then that's a pretty good sign that you shouldn't be writing him.
I don't believe my own ideas have be skewed or extreme in any way.
I didn't say that they were.
On the contrary, I find that immortality and other such ideas are not even hinted at in the WC and thus are personal ideas.
If you think that I'm projecting my beliefs onto Oronis' utopia, then you should be delighted that I've chosen to not write New Kurn.
Such ideas are fine as long as they are agreed upon by the creative team. This one, though, is extreme and I'd go against.
Ah, but you've resisted my repeated attempts to drag you onto the creative team for LC, Eldaarich, and Kurn. If I changed my mind about NK, who would stop me? (Muhahahaha!)
I'd also oppose a "dray" idea for Oronis.
See? In a couple of hours of conversation between less than half a dozen people we've generated three mutually exclusive factions of thought regarding New Kurn. If we were all immortals with superpowers, our different ideas of what constituted utopia might eventually lead to violence. :D But since we're a bunch of mortal guys chatting by internet who have to keep our day jobs up, chances are that we'd just waste a lot of time arguing, and New Kurn would take up lots of time that could be better spent on other stuff.
I don't believe my own ideas have be skewed or extreme in any way. On the contrary, I find that immortality and other such ideas are not even hinted at in the WC and thus are personal ideas. Such ideas are fine as long as they are agreed upon by the creative team. This one, though, is extreme and I'd go against. I'd also oppose a "dray" idea for Oronis.
On the contrary, I find that immortality and other such ideas are not even hinted at in the WC and thus are personal ideas.
What you find in your reading does not seem to be coterminous with what's there. You decided not to respond to my explanation of how I got life extension from the reading, and you've posited a number of things that I didn't say. So it goes.
That said, I understand the concern of writing a utopia that works for everyone. It won't and never will. You would have both arguements from people who disagreed with your vision, and then others who don't want "metaplot" getting in the way of there personal take on Athas.
So the question isn't how to write the utopia, the question is this: Is it possible to write about New Kurn without describing the utopia itself? I know this sounds strange, and it is. To be honest, I can't think of how to do it myself, but... Maybe there is a way to decribe it, without boxing it into a corner.
Although, we all had different ideas of what the Dragon's haven would be, and then they dropped Ur Draxa, the Valley of Dust and Fire, and the Great Ash Storm on us. The problem is that at this point, it's not a book on a shelf, and for many people doesn't feel as "offical," even though it would be, if athas.org released it.
And while I am not privy to the discussions that the templars at athas.org have, I am sure that the "where are we headed on this planet called Athas" dicussion has either not happened, or been postponed until other projects are done. Eventually, all the AB will be done, the rules will be perfected, Secrets of the Dead Lands will be out, and we will have some other releases as well, like Prison-State, and City of Kurn.
Eventually, the question of where do we go from here will need to happen, if Darksun is to move beyond free year 12. Something tells me that Oronis will be a part of that.
Its possible to write an expansion describing an uotpian community while never discussions the behind the scenes, the hidden plans, the goals.
Makes for a dry read though, filled with vagueness meant to be exploited by the DM. Is that interesting to read? Decide for yourself.
As for the rest....
What evidence do you have of a destructive outlook on life in New Kurn? The WC suggests that the society inculcates a fairly non-destructive outlook.
D&D humans are modeled after planet Earth's humans, right? And elves and dwarves are living facets of the human psyche, right? They exist so we can explore, through fantasy, our own human nature, right?
Now, what do we know about planet Earth's humans? Is there a group of people on our world that has an outlook on life which would allow them to live for hundreds of years in peace, while trading for fish, listening to tv, buying CDs, making kids, seeing them die, ...
Zen buddhists perhaps? Shaolin monks? I'm pulling at straws here. I have no idea. Perhaps some primitive amazonian culture so freaking simple they can outlast us all?
So, I'm thinking, athasians are like us, since fantasy is a mirror of our world. So is Dark Sun. So are Kurnans and New Kurnans. They're as flawed as Tyrians, because they're human. Even the elves are "human" too.
That's where I got my "evidence" from. I'm not eloquent, but I hope I explained myself now.
Cough. Rajaat! Cough.
Cheap shot. No other pyreen has been described as different from other pyreens besides Rajaat. Its fairly safe to count him out from the pyreen people, as non-representative. I expect people, and that includes you Brax, not to bring out the mysterious and oh so weird Rajaat card when one talks about how the pyreen are as a people.
I agree that would make more sense. But look at the actual text of the WC, and tell me how you get from that to what you're saying.
If you wish to veto the project so that anyone writting it has to take the "bring back the Blue Age" part of WC litteraly, then there's not much chance you'll get a project that people will like. And this is my belief. Someone will have some difficulty making fans believe Oronis is good and wants people's happiness while also wanting to drown the world and erase everything.
Fan's vision: "So basically, that Oronis dude is just like Rajaat, right?"
Amiska's story is perhaps my favorite in all of the DS stories, but one could read it differently. Remember, in a story in DK, Hamanu killed some other AB. It's not just avangions in particular he's going after. He's afraid of the unknown, yes, but that's unknown people taking on great power. When He killed Kalid-ma and helped kill Dregoth, that was fear of a known danger, since they saw what Borys did after becoming a Dragon.
Hamanu is a dragon, so he knows what's the deal with others of his kind. An avangion is an unknown. He knows no avangion. In fact its only in the Dragon's Crown adventure that Hamanu - or any SK for that matter, it seems - meets an avangion. Before that time, Kalak located one and sent the Dragon to kill it.
So fear of the unknown and lore and spells pointing to doom seem to be the motivation behind "dragons are avangions' greatest enemies". I'm not seeing a much different interpretation for the SKs' behavior vis à vis avangions, even in the light of what you wrote.
Hamanu's afraid of people pulling off AB transformations, and after what happened with Borys, he has good reason to be afraid. Here' we're talking about Oronis. He didn't just do this transformation; he did it a long time ago. I think it's fairly obvious that Hamanu would go after a fledgling dragon as vigorously as he does a fledgling avangion.
How are the SKs supposed to know Oronis made his change long ago? Or even to find out? Teleport his closest high templar and mind probe her for the info? Sneak into New Kurn's library and read all history volumes and journals until they find it spelled out for them?
Anyways, why would learning that a new threat has in fact been there for centuries or millenia reduce that threat to your eyes? Those fears are supposed to be irrational in the first place.
But that's just logic. Regardless of what I think, the WC says the other SKs would attack Oronis if they knew, so that's how it is.
No beef there.
There's nothing wrong with projecting your philosophical, political, and religious beliefs into your fiction. The problem is, Dark Sun doesn't belong to you or to me, and we owe it to the community to not turn Oronis into our personal moral puppet. "Oronis thinks" should never become a sneaky way of saying "I think." If you don't ever disagree with what you think that Oronis thinks, then that's a pretty good sign that you shouldn't be writing him.
I agree. For the time being, though, I know of no other way to write simple, short, and to the point, posts that convey that information. "Oronis knows" and "Oronis will do" are shortcuts. I'm not actually convinced that that is what Oronis knows or will do. Its just easier to write it that way on the boards.
If you think that I'm projecting my beliefs onto Oronis' utopia, then you should be delighted that I've chosen to not write New Kurn.
I'm not delighted in anything, I'm burnt out. That, I think, is the definition of being burnt out. (I'm attempting humor here, in case I'm being too dense.) Release NK in 10 years for all I care. I'll switch discussing other stuff in the mean time.
Ah, but you've resisted my repeated attempts to drag you onto the creative team for LC, Eldaarich, and Kurn.
I can't say I blame you for being a bit bitter here. (Or am I imagining?) But when looking at a stack of printed pages becomes a chore, that's when I draw the line. And reading hundreds of pages when burnt out is, to me, a chore. This entire thing is supposed to be fun, and to many it is.
If I could waive a wand and make myself superswell again, and read thorugh all the LC and Trembling Plains docs in a week, and find dozens of things that could be improved, and errors to be corrected, I'd do it.
You decided not to respond to my explanation of how I got life extension from the reading
I thought it was someone else's idea.
What I could find, reading back, on that idea is...
A) Make your society better by ensuring the good elements live longer than the bad ones, so they can positivly influence your society for longer periods.
B) Something about life extension methods? Life-shaping? That I did not get.
So, if there is indeed a way to extend good people's lives so they can outlast the bad people, and that method does not require the killing of other people, or defiling, then why wouldn't Oronis not consider doing this?
Its an utopian outlook on society. You don't really know that rewarding the good elements this way will work like you postulate, and the whole process could go so terribly wrong many differents ways, that it becomes an utopain undertaking because of it, i.e. one has to create a would-be utopia to test the method on it.
In the novel Ventus, by Karl Schroeder, the character of Queen Galas spends decades maintenaing dozens of villages in the desert in complete isolation from the outside world. Each village boasts one or more utopian characteristic: no money, no child belongs to any single parent, no possessive words in the language, and dozens of other extreme modifications. All so she can find out what is best for human beings and then force it on her people.
Making the good elements of your society live, say, double life spans compared to others, is just as extreme and could possibly fail as hard as any other of the schemes I described.
Still, its one of hundreds of possibilities amongst which Oronis must have chosen when he imagined New Kurn. Which did he implement? Is he still juggling among them? Finding new schemes?
Saying that scheme "could possibly fail," when you're talking about making a utopia, probably represents all concevable schemes. I'm unaware of any sure fire time tested recipes for utopia.
Still, its one of hundreds of possibilities amongst which Oronis must have chosen when he imagined New Kurn. Which did he implement? Is he still juggling among them? Finding new schemes?
If you've read WotDL carefully, you know where I stand on that one. He's still got his eyes open. WC says it's a sort of utopia, but it also makes clear that there's still progression. So IMO we're talking about a *good* society, not a society so perfect that it has nothing to learn or no room to improve.
Is there a group of people on our world that has an outlook on life which would allow them to live for hundreds of years in peace, while trading for fish, listening to tv, buying CDs, making kids, seeing them die, ...
Zen buddhists perhaps? Shaolin monks? I'm pulling at straws here. I have no idea. Perhaps some primitive amazonian culture so freaking simple they can outlast us all?
I don't know and neither do you. Obviously, it's never been put to a test. And if it had, I'm not sure if you'd have noticed, since you're ignoring everything that doesn't fit your argument, such as:
your genesis bubble idea sounds to me right out of a hat, too
OK, now you're just pretending to be dumb to annoy me, and I have too much respect for your intelligence to not kick your butt for that :D Which part are you pretending not to understand -- 1. that Oronis thinks his little project puts his people in danger from the SKs (see WC); 2. that Athas itself is a dying world; 3. That Oronis feels responsible for his people's well-being; or 4. that I'm positing that a genesis bubble might save his people from #1 and/or #2?
You might disagree with my postulate #4, and you might think that it's a dumb story, or whatever, but you're not dumb and you know very well that I did not just pull that out of a hat. Unlike your completely unsupported statements about what Oronis thinks, believes, and wants, I actually explained how I got from the WC's text over to my ideas. It's certainly not the only way to read it, but at least I'm reading. I've also offered my ideas as tentative ways to implement his stated goals in WC (utopia and protecting.
I'm not eloquent, but I hope I explained myself now.
You're eloquent enough when you care to put effort to understand and be understood.
But here you really seem to be making the opposite effort. You said:
So, Oronis understands that change equals creativity, and the best and simplest of all engines of change is the cycle of life which brings deaths and rebirths.
I replied:
And you get this from what text? The Book of Pennarin, of course. And if I wrote it, I'd be writing it up from the Book of Brax. Look, a writer's outlook always influences what he writes, but I not only refuse to participate in, I might actually exercise veto on anyone passing off their pure unmitigated philosophical and religious beliefs as Dark Sun material.
You distorted what I said beyond belief:
If you wish to veto the project so that anyone writting it has to take the "bring back the Blue Age" part of WC litteraly
You know very well that I said no such thing. What is this, "share the burn-out day"?
In the novel Ventus, by Karl Schroeder, the character of Queen Galas spends decades maintenaing dozens of villages in the desert in complete isolation from the outside world. Each village boasts one or more utopian characteristic: no money, no child belongs to any single parent, no possessive words in the language, and dozens of other extreme modifications. All so she can find out what is best for human beings and then force it on her people.
And like I said above, I think that would be evil, and quite unlike the Oronis that the WC describes, i.e. freeing the slaves, etc.
Making the good elements of your society live, say, double life spans compared to others, is just as extreme and could possibly fail as hard as any other of the schemes I described.
Making them? So when I talk about extending the life of people that contribute to society, you honestly believe that I meant coercing them? Can you really not conceive of someone accepting life extension of their own free will? I've just gone through some of the worst five years of my life, from the medical screw-up that made my son an invalid to just about every other aspect of my life, and I could still use some more of it.
We have medical discoveries, past present, and projected future, that have gradually extended human life. Nanotech very much might double people's lifespans, and it's probably going to start just by doubling the lifespans of the very rich and lazy. What's so wrong with offering that sort of opportunity to society's best and brightest?
If you were immortal and had the power to extend the lives of only a few people, wouldn't you first offer it to those you most cared about and that made your life worth enduring, and to those that made everyone else's lives better?
If you were immortal and had the power to extend the lives of only a few people, wouldn't you first offer it to those you most cared about and that made your life worth enduring, and to those that made everyone else's lives better?
Wasn't this the original intent of the Mind Lords as well? That being turning themselves immortal in order to keep the Last Sea and its people safe. We know how well that worked out. I think Oronis would realize that something similar could happen if he began turning a few dozen of his closest subjects immortal, never mind the whole population of New Kurn.
I'd be happy to meet you on middle ground and say that the people of New Kurn may live longer than most Athasians due to their less hazardous life-styles and easier living conditions. I'd even go as far as saying that you could expand the age catagories of New Kurnians by ten years each.
Making them? So when I talk about extending the life of people that contribute to society, you honestly believe that I meant coercing them? [...]
I did not read the rest of this post Brax.
"Making" means "transforming them so they can". You read coercion, I didn't write that.
So you read that the word "extreme" in my statement refers to Oronis coercing his people into long lives, while I wrote that what is extreme are the long lives themselves. "Making them long lived" can be replaced by "using a spell to reward them with long lives".
Its actually funny that someone thinks you're faking being dumb while in fact you're making efforts to be understood. Hilarious. I feel warm and fuzzy all over.
OK, now you're just pretending to be dumb to annoy me, and I have too much respect for your intelligence to not kick your butt for that Which part are you pretending not to understand -- 1. that Oronis thinks his little project puts his people in danger from the SKs (see WC); 2. that Athas itself is a dying world; 3. That Oronis feels responsible for his people's well-being; or 4. that I'm positing that a genesis bubble might save his people from #1 and/or #2?
Intelligence varies over time, with concentration!
Seriously though, where did you find that Oronis is considering using dimensional aids such as proto-planes and the likes, to maybe export his people there?
If it wasn't written anywhere, or hinted at in a TSR summary that "Oronis is considering the Ethereal as a way to save his people"...then it means you invented it.
My statement said that AFAIK you invented the bubble idea, so as an invention that seems as extreme as immortality or time travel to me.
If you're "positing that a genesis bubble might save his people", then fine.
If you're "positing that Oronis is thinking that a genesis bubble might save his people", then you're putting ideas in his head, like I did before when you chastised me for it.
If you indeed showed somewhere in this thread how Oronis might be lead to think this idea about a bubble, and think that argument valid, then please point me to the post number or repost it now as a quote.
The Genesis power comes to mind. How big would one of those bubbles be after 1000 years?
FYI, about 9 and a half miles. ;)
If you want this to go smoother, contact me on Skype video and I'll be happy to chat, with voice and body cues to help the conversation along, without missunderstandings that can't be fixed in real time.
Seriously though, where did you find that Oronis is considering using dimensional aids such as proto-planes and the likes, to maybe export his people there?
Null question. Read what I said, and my explanation.
Another thing you're assuming that isn't necessarily true is that Oronis' plans would be confined to Athas. Adapted creatures might be able to live somewhere else. Oronis has to know that the odds are stacked against him. The WC says he believes that if word got out about what he's doing, that the other SKs would take him out. That seems inconsistent with the behavior of the other SKS, who historically only unite or take direct action when their lives & holdings are threatened (e.g. see Dregoth, Kalid-Ma, Sielba), and here Oronis' plans don't threaten the power of the other SKs. But assume that it's true, or at least that Oronis believes it, then Oronis would have a contingency plan. The Genesis power comes to mind. How big would one of those bubbles be after 1000 years?
All I said about Oronis is that given the concerns the WC attributes to him is that he would have a contingency plan to save his people should his worst fears come true.
I was *wondering* if a Genesis bubble might fall into his plan. Do you know what "comes to mind" means? If I say that X comes to mind, it means X comes to my mind. You respond that I pulled it out of a hat, falsely insinuating that I projected it into Oronis' mind.
All I'm saying is look at the possibilities, and then, reading the WC carefully, decide which ones best fit Oronis' personality and methods. Some of them we can dismiss because they obviously conflict with Oronis' stated personality and methods, eg. forced slave-breeding, etc.
I simply questioned your assumption that Oronis would confine his plans to Athas. The SKs use the Grey and the Black; they know that Athas isn't all that exists. I didn't say that Oronis *would* leave Athas or that he would use Genesis, I simply laid it out to expland the options.
Its actually funny that someone thinks you're faking being dumb while in fact you're making efforts to be understood.
I never complained about your writing and your ability to make yourself understood. I complained about your lack of effort to read and understand before you respond.
FYI, about 9 and a half miles. ;)
9.5 mile radius?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't big enough to hold a city-state and all of its client villages?
Something else to consider, is that according to the WC, Oronis is not even fully in charge. In a democracy, I'd expect that you'd have a bunch of ideas, different groups pulling in different directions, making different plans.
If eve faced wit a situation he did not agree with, I see not reason that he would go along with it and the people of New Kurn would be powerless to oppose him. Where do all the templars gain their powers - Oronis. Who designed the spells to create the city and its environment - Oronis. All he would have to say is that the council had been compromised, then use his superior powers to convince people he was right, and retake the mantel of power he once had. Well “why does he do this?” you may be asking yourselves. Well that is an easy answer - to maintain the illusion.
See he just does not want to be bothered with rebellions populations and the daily hassle of controlling his city as his brethren in the south have had to. So, he gave the city a free government and set in place laws and rules. Without the oppression and hard ship of an overbearing government, the people are happier and are more willing to maintain the laws and those in power. But don't you see - it is still an illusion. Oronis is powerful enough to take anything he wanted within the city, it is just that at this point he has not reason, no motivation to do so because his lackeys and "free" citizens do all the work for him, allowing him to conduct his magical experiments.
If truly benevolent and grief stricken as he makes himself out to be over the killing of the entire race of lizardmen, why has he done noting about it? Why has he not crafted a spell of Epic proportions to give his power and maybe his life in order to bring back and entire race? I can tell you why – because he is still the same cold-blooded killer he has always been, but now he realized that death can come to anyone and he secretly is terrified of the endless Gray that will come for him one day. Yes he may have had a flip of conscience, but that does not change the fact that while he has the power to right the wrong he once did, he has done nothing to do so and instead sits hold up in his mountains and secret city, a coward and a heartless killer of women and children to this day!
Please - the illusion of freedom that Oronis provides is only that, an illusion...
I hope you're kidding Kal. As interesting as this point of view is, canonical sources support Oronis being a benevolent creature and far from being the maniacal monster you're painting him out to be in this post.
Hopefelly you're just trying to make a point thru use of an extreme example.
If you want to get cynical, you could argue that some of what Kal says is true per se, because Oronis is so innately powerful, that people around him only have free will because he *allows* them to have it.
I actually do agree with the statement that Oronis probabably does not consider himself a subject of the tribunal.
As for bringing back dead races, the text neither requires that, nor does it rule it out. The WC says that wiping out the whole race, and the atrocities involved, caused him guilt, but it also suggests that the deaths of his own subjects bothered him a lot more.
The text does not say whether Oronis ever found out about the lizard men in the Lost Sea. They don't seem to be that much of a deep dark Secret; there's no indication that they are still hiding from Keltis. (Just as Elves did fine in the city of Balic, under Albeorn->Andropinis --- in VA, wasn't there actually an elf in Balic that was a Noble. The old grudges don't always stay front and center. I read somewhere that most English people today had ancestors on both sides of the battle of Hastings.) Anyway, if Oronis knows, no need to restore that race, even if race restoration was his agenda.
Anyway, some folks here have misread the WC to say that the SKs would destroy Kurn and Oronis if they knew he was an avangion. Whether or not that's true about the SKs, the WC says no such thing. It says:
The first step was to change the rules of society in Kurn. Though the city had to maintain an illusion of normalcy to keep the other sorcerer-kings from detecting treachery or weakness, Oronis secretly freed all slaves and instituted fair and just practices at all levels of society. He swore his citizens to secrecy, for if word got out he was sure his one-time peers would flock to Kurn like gith to a dying braxat.
Sounds to me like he's less afraid of their wrath than of their greed. If he shows what they consider to be weakness they will want a piece of Kurn. Which does not make very much sense given that Borys the Dragon himself didn't dare come up in these parts for fear of angering Daskinor. But then it doesn't say that the other SKs would flock to Kurn; it says that Oronis was sure that his peers would flock to Kurn.
You respond that I pulled it out of a hat, falsely insinuating that I projected it into Oronis' mind.
So this the crux of our discussion: not what Oronis thinks or should think, but what I think you said a few posts ago and vice versa.
Which is not that funny.
All I'm saying is look at the possibilities, and then, reading the WC carefully, decide which ones best fit Oronis' personality and methods. Some of them we can dismiss because they obviously conflict with Oronis' stated personality and methods, eg. forced slave-breeding, etc.
This is my state of mind as well, and I think I voiced it once. I guess it didn't get through at the time!
But now you know that on that I'm there with you 100%.The text does not say whether Oronis ever found out about the lizard men in the Lost Sea. They don't seem to be that much of a deep dark Secret; there's no indication that they are still hiding from Keltis...
Interesting stuff came out of this old thread regarding this very topic:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=307265
Its worth a look see if you're interested.
Why can't you let me have my fun and play along!!
Anyway - Some of what I pointed out at least IMO, I think is true - I do think that Oronis uses the excuse of secruity of his people to hide from his guilt and failures of the past. I think this idea is more then well supported in that he, the possible orginator of the avangion spells, will not teach them. With enough avangions, they world could be changed dramatically and for the better. In his hidden city, he as a able bodied force that is willing and able to make the transformations IMO - but his fear and guilt have made him a coward, or if that is too strong a word for some, then at least lets say that he is somewhat paralyzed by fear of failure and that has made him ineffective at best.
Sure - I may have blown up some issues and used some things that stretch the mind and the material a bit, but is what I have said ALL untrue? I think much of hat I put down warrents thought.
Here is a little food for thought :P
Can We Trust Our Senses?
Have you ever seen something and then later ask yourself if it had truly happened or said that what you had seen was impossible. I’m pretty sure that you have. Why is it that sometimes we cannot accept or believe what it is that our senses tell us? In the following material I will discuss whether Descartes’ argument about not trusting our senses is valid or not, and why it is that we should not always trust them.
In Descartes’ Meditation One, he says that there are no definite signs that we can use to tell us if we are actually awake or just dreaming that we are. I know that from my own personal experiences that dreams, when I am having them, seem as real to me as sitting here in front of this computer does now. So in all actuality the “dreams” that we have could in fact be the reality that I think I am living now. To date there is nothing that we can present that can tell us whether or not the things around us are real. On the other hand, there is the aspect of faith. If we spent our lives in constant denial of the reality that our senses tell us is present, then what kind of life would that be. Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living, but there has to be a point where we stop analyzing what life is and live it. Descartes’ argument is valid to a point, but there must come a time when we rely on what our senses tell us.
The other point I wish to discuss is the fact that if we are going to believe our senses, is there a time when we should discount what our senses tell us and use logic to explain what it is that we are experiencing. There are times in our lives when our emotions or physical state will alter what it is that our senses tell us and how we interpret the information. During times of high physical or emotional stress, the way we perceive things will be altered to fit our personal beliefs and bias’ (e.x. after an accident or long period of sleep deprivation). It is during these times that we should discount what it is that our senses tell us and use pure logic to explain what it is that is happening around us.
So in summery Descrates’ argument to not believe our senses is valid in the context that we do not know if this is reality or not and we should question the things we experience, but there has to come a time when we stop analyzing life and live it.
People are more than their jobs, families, or possessions.
Every living thing on the planet is made up of the same basic element: carbon. So what is the defining feature that sets human beings apart from a tree or a dog? It is our minds, and the ability to move beyond our basic needs, and to decide a standard of right and moral excellence: to be virtuous.
I think that this is what I think it truely means to start down the path of the avangion. This is a transofrmation that is not really IMO about power and rule - it is a means to an end - it is the choice, the decision to save something of the world - to save men, women, elves, dwarves, runts, and plants and animals for not only the now, but for the generations to come.
IMO Oronis is falling short of all the potential he hold, and is denying other the choice to make the right decision, to be virtuous.
This is my state of mind as well, and I think I voiced it once. I guess it didn't get through at the time!
I did see that part, and really liked it, but was too busy yelling at you about other things to mention it :D
I'm not really sure what Oronis is up to. I suspect that the original design team had some arguments and ended up trying to hide them in ambiguity. (kind of how we wrote the US constitution :D ). That's my guess to why the Kurn stuff is so vague, and also why any attempt to specifically define New Kurn's utopia is doomed, if not to utter failure, then at least to eat up years of time that could be used on other projects. We all want our own little Utopia.
That's my guess to why the Kurn stuff is so vague, and also why any attempt to specifically define New Kurn's utopia is doomed, if not to utter failure, then at least to eat up years of time that could be used on other projects.
I disagree. I feel that with the right group of people an Oronis/New Kurn source reference could be competently crafted. So long as the ideas of those involved aren't super radical and are based on logical interpretation of canon while not completely stifling individual creativity.
That's my guess to why the Kurn stuff is so vague, and also why any attempt to specifically define New Kurn's utopia is doomed, if not to utter failure, then at least to eat up years of time that could be used on other projects.
I disagree. I feel that with the right group of people an Oronis/New Kurn source reference could be competently crafted. So long as the ideas of those involved aren't super radical and are based on logical interpretation of canon while not completely stifling individual creativity.
You say you disagree, but nothing you said remotely contradicts anything that I said.
Originally Posted by TheBrax
You say you disagree, but nothing you said remotely contradicts anything that I said.
In a round about way all you've said is that you're throwing in the towel on thinking that Oronis' connection and plans for New Kurn can't be defined when there's been bearly any discussion on it. Whats to contradict? You shared your opinion, which is "it can't be done", so I shared mine, which is that "I think it can", because of the reasons I listed above.
there's been bearly any discussion on it.
That's odd that you would make such a sweeping statement about what discussions have ever gone on regarding New Kurn, since I don't seem to remember seeing you on the Dark-Sun list-serv, where most of these discussions occured. Remind me, how many years have you been in the online DS community and what projects have you been a part of?
I did not say NK "can't be done." I said that I don't think that that the result would be worth the effort.
That's odd that you would make such a sweeping statement about what discussions have ever gone on regarding New Kurn, since I don't seem to remember seeing you on the Dark-Sun list-serv, where most of these discussions occured. Remind me, how many years have you been in the online DS community and what projects have you been a part of?
Mreeeoooww! Claws out! Braxcat is about!!
:P
you're throwing in the towel
Throwing in the towel means giving up. I never picked that towel up in the first place. I took on the Kurn and Eldaarich projects, and I'm getting them done. I never agreed to do New Kurn. Remind me, what projects have you been a part of, and who are you to judge me for not wanting to take on NK?
Mreeeoooww! Claws out! Braxcat is about!!
Pardon me for getting annoyed when a couch potato calls me a quitter over a job that I never agreed to do.
Pardon me for getting annoyed when a couch potato calls me a quitter over a job that I never agreed to do.
Heh, no pardon necessary. I'm just a popcorn muncher in this thread. Go for the body blow! I put you two points ahead already, dude...
:D
I did not say NK "can't be done." I said that I don't think that that the result would be worth the effort.
I beg to differ. A well thought out source on NK would be invaluable to the DS community. How could you think otherwise is beyond me?
That's odd that you would make such a sweeping statement about what discussions have ever gone on regarding New Kurn, since I don't seem to remember seeing you on the Dark-Sun list-serv, where most of these discussions occured. Remind me, how many years have you been in the online DS community and what projects have you been a part of?
I'm talking in the context of this thread. Please don't stoop to trying to cheap shots at discrediting me just because I don't agree with your point of view. I've been around on the DS board long enough. Maybe not as long as some others, but just because I'm not offically affliated with athas.org doesn't make my opinions less important.
I did not say NK "can't be done." I said that I don't think that that the result would be worth the effort.
I beg to differ. A well thought out source on NK would be invaluable to the DS community.
Once again, what you said does not contradict what I said. See above.
Please don't stoop to trying to cheap shots at discrediting me just because I don't agree with your point of view.
And what point of view would that be? :D If you can't represent it accurately, then how would you have the dimmest idea of whether you disagree with it?
Throwing in the towel means giving up. I never picked that towel up in the first place. I took on the Kurn and Eldaarich projects, and I'm getting them done. I never agreed to do New Kurn. Remind me, what projects have you been a part of, and who are you to judge me for not wanting to take on NK?
Did I fault you for not wanting to take on the addtionally responsibilty of NK? No, I think not. I said that you were throwing in the towel on thinking that it couldn't be done by anyone. Stop taking things out of context.
Pardon me for getting annoyed when a couch potato calls me a quitter over a job that I never agreed to do.
Nice, this doesn't even warrent further comment.
Once again, what you said does not contradict what I said. See above.
Bro, I'm not trying to contradict anything you said. All I'm saying is that a Oronis/NK source material is a reality and well worth the effort if the right people are invovled and adhere to canon.
And what point of view would that be? :D If you can't represent it accurately, then how would you have the dimmest idea of whether you disagree with it?
<> Are we reading the same thread?
As for the newsgroup, I avoid authority arguments when I can, but your plainly mistaken statement that there had not been many discussions over NK relied on your own experience and authority. It is no "cheap shot" to point out that just because you haven't been around for all the discussions about NK, does not mean that such discussions never occurred.
Likewise, I haven't posted on this list for most of the last 3 years, which is why I would never say something like "there have not been many discussions about X."
OK; if you didn't mean to call me a quitter then you're only guilty of incredibly bad word choice, and I apologize for calling you a couch potato.
I made that statement in the sense that you made it sound as if any work invested in a NK supplement was a waste of time. If thats not what you meant, fine, but your tone came across that any effort put into such a project would be better directed else where.
As for the newsgroup, I avoid authority arguments when I can, but your plainly mistaken statement that there had not been many discussions over NK relied on your own experience and authority. It is no "cheap shot" to point out that just because you haven't been around for all the discussions about NK, does not mean that such discussions never occurred.
Likewise, I haven't posted on this list for most of the last 3 years, which is why I would never say something like "there have not been many discussions about X
Yet again, I meant in the context of this specific thread.
your tone came across that any effort put into such a project would be better directed else where.
Ah, now you're getting it. But "effort put into such a project would be better directed elsewhere" is not the same thing as "any work invested in a NK supplement was a waste of time."
Yet again, I meant in the context of this specific thread.
Why in Ral's name would we limit ourselves to such a small part of the data set?
The more controversial a project is, the longer it takes to do. When you put the words "Athas" and "Utopia" together, there's more at stake for the authors and for the fans then there is for story and adventure. A competently produced and consistent version of NK would be invaluable, but so would the other cities. In the time it would take to make a NK that even a bare majority of DS fans could tolerate and use, I would estimate from my experience that a competent development team could produce City-State of Balic, City-State of Urik, City-State of Raam, and City-State of Celik. I'll add that we aren't exactly overflowing with competent writers who have the time and disposition to do such projects.
Why do people hate me!!!
Ah, now you're getting it. But "effort put into such a project would be better directed elsewhere" is not the same thing as "any work invested in a NK supplement was a waste of time."
You realize that you're splitting hairs, right?
Why in Ral's name would we limit ourselves to such a small part of the data set?
How am I suppose to know who, when, and where else people may be discussing this or any other topic? I asumed that this was the only venue that this has come up in recently. My bad for making that assuption.
The more controversial a project is, the longer it takes to do.
Here's the thing, I don't think this would be anymore controversial than any other athas.org project. With enough care and research anything can be done competently and to the majorties satisfaction.Sure, not everyone will agree with every ounce of content, but such things should be expected by any game developer.
In my case I know about the mailing list but never could make it work to my satisfaction, so never used it. I wasn't around for the glory days of mailing lists - I'm a child of nice and shinny boards - so that stuff is arcane to me. Just saying.
Indeed, Sysane. Bruno is making a very very good supplement on lifeshaping, sure to get massive approval, yet a big part of the fan base didn't even like TSR's rendition in the first place....so what the heck. Anyone that wants to do anything touchy, I say go for it.
As do I, so long as you know what you're up against. Bruno does know what he's up against, and he's taking steps to deal with it.
I also encourage Will Kendrick's extensive work on New Kurn (it's Will's project), but I do not want to run that gauntlet with him.
Life Shaping and New Kurn are quite different sorts of controversy, though. "a big part of the fan base didn't even like TSR's rendition in the first place" is exactly why it's a bad analogy. Those that don't want life shaping won't read it, won't use it. It's like Trade Lords (publishing very soon). My prediction is that many DMs don't run a Trade campaign, so they probably won't care about it except for the cool lunar lighting rules and Nelson's delightful illustrations of the phases of Ral and Guthay. Those that do use trade extensively, either for villains and politics or actualy PC traders, will love our new supplement. Two or three folks will get huffy that the team dared to put out a product that didn't contain new feats.
New Kurn's very different though because people are a lot more invested. Lots of people like what they think is the idea of New Kurn only because the WC outlined it as vaguely as a typical political campaign speech. Kind of like Rajaat telling people he wanted to make things back like they were during the Blue Age. It's all fine and dandy until you get down to specifics, and then it's every holy warrior for himself.