Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2006 12:42:34	Okay, I am not intimately familiar with Dragonlance, but I do know a good little bit, I guess. For the RPG-aspect, I have decided that the Dragon Rider is my favorite PrC, and I want to try and play one sometime, but I have a few questions in regards to it. Please assume I am thinking of a Fighter 10/Dragon Rider 1, with a Charisma of 18 as my base example. He wants a silver dragon as his cohort. I am using predominantly 3.0 and the main, purple Dragonlance corebook, during the Age of Mortals, after the events of most books, so Takhesis is dead, Paladine is an elf, and Mina is maybe a god. 1. According to the table (2-15), the first available silver dragon is ECL 15 (young AgeCat). That means I have to be at least 15th-level, regardless of the Leadership score I can muster, before I can have said cohort, I believe. Does that mean that they expect me to have several other dragon cohorts, perhaps a young brass dragon, to fill in the gap of time, while I level up to 15th-level, or am I going to be traveling with a silver dragon for 4 levels worth of adventuring without getting several of the benefits of the prestige class? If I'm playing a LG character, nothing less than that is acceptable. I suppose riding a gold very young for a time could be fun, but it goes against my character's flavor, and even then, he would need to be 13th-level, not 11th. Am I just misinterpreting the table, or do you have to be a good deal higher level than the base requirements for applying to the PrC to get decent dragons for LG? 2. I'm a LG character, and assuming I get my silver dragon along the way, he should be a LG dragon. Why, when I and he are both acting as defenders of Good in the world, do I have to pay him a sizable chunk of change? Supplying him with a lair and respect is fine; he's a powerful and majestic beast, and a valued friend, and if he should get a portion of any loot we accumulate while smiting evil, that's fine, but to walk up to him and say "I wish for you to help me fight evil. Here is 13,000 gp worth of treasure from my home, which is being invaded by minotaurs, to help sweeten the deal for you", just seems wrong, with a LG dragon. Where do they assume an acting character gets that kind of free-standing wealth to just give to a dragon that will say "thanks, yes, and mine now!" I won't be keeping him with me constantly, so it's not like he can't take wing from my home, go do what dragons do, and then come back later, with his accumulated loot, to help me when I need him, and still have enough additional loot to fuel his next growth cycle. 3. Other than the class features, does the rider's AC get any benefit from actually riding on a dragon? He's a good deal bigger than me, and things like his head, neck, wings, and tail could obstruct the ability of attackers, especially ranged ones, to aim for me. Obviously, the dragon should be an easier target to hit, logisticswise, even if his actual AC might be substantial. Would a rider get a cover bonus, at least against low-ground foes? 4. Do you need a weapon with Reach to actually melee fight from dragonback? I can't imagine that a sword is a good weapon to use from there, except in one or two stunts I can imagine. Lances are good (dragonlances better, as I don't think they shatter at DC 8 with the Tremendous Charge feat), but that leaves only lances and spears, as they can extend beyond the dragon's wingspan and nec/tail range. These, however, aren't necessarily as good in melee without the dragon, should he not be around, or injured. 5. In Krynn, do Dragon Riders ever choose to purchase barding for their dragon mounts? Dragons are pretty durable to begin with, but a layer of fine metal plate on certain areas might not hurt, especially enchanted against projectiles, like arrows. Still, dragons are intelligent and prideful. They might not like the idea that their own scales aren't enough, and they polymorph often, so I don't know how well it would work. 6. In the world of Krynn, where does one find a silver dragon, to beseech of them to become mounts/cohorts in the first place?
#2 iltharanos Nov 06, 2006 13:19:44	1. According to the table (2-15), the first available silver dragon is ECL 15 (young AgeCat). That means I have to be at least 15th-level, regardless of the Leadership score I can muster, before I can have said cohort, I believe. Does that mean that they expect me to have several other dragon cohorts, perhaps a young brass dragon, to fill in the gap of time, while I level up to 15th-level, or am I going to be traveling with a silver dragon for 4 levels worth of adventuring without getting several of the benefits of the prestige class? If I'm playing a LG character, nothing less than that is acceptable. I suppose riding a gold very young for a time could be fun, but it goes against my character's flavor, and even then, he would need to be 13th-level, not 11th. Am I just misinterpreting the table, or do you have to be a good deal higher level than the base requirements for applying to the PrC to get decent dragons for LG? You can indeed enter into the Dragon Rider PrC at 11th level, but as you've noted you may want to wait until you're a higher level if you have designs on a particular dragon mount. Another issue is your PC's size. If he's medium size he cannot ride the ECL 15 medium size young silver dragon, though he could ride the ECL 13 very young gold dragon. 2. I'm a LG character, and assuming I get my silver dragon along the way, he should be a LG dragon. Why, when I and he are both acting as defenders of Good in the world, do I have to pay him a sizable chunk of change? Supplying him with a lair and respect is fine; he's a powerful and majestic beast, and a valued friend, and if he should get a portion of any loot we accumulate while smiting evil, that's fine, but to walk up to him and say "I wish for you to help me fight evil. Here is 13,000 gp worth of treasure from my home, which is being invaded by minotaurs, to help sweeten the deal for you", just seems wrong, with a LG dragon. Don't look at it as you bribing the dragon to help you in the fight against evil. Another way to look at it is you're contributing money to the silver dragon who will then turn around and spend that money in ways a LG character would, including but not limited to: helping out destitute refugees from wars by paying for food and housing, paying for improved fortifications in threatened cities, paying for more soldiers to be hired/trained, etc. Where do they assume an acting character gets that kind of free-standing wealth to just give to a dragon that will say "thanks, yes, and mine now!" I won't be keeping him with me constantly, so it's not like he can't take wing from my home, go do what dragons do, and then come back later, with his accumulated loot, to help me when I need him, and still have enough additional loot to fuel his next growth cycle. It needn't be wealth as in coins, per se. It could be magical items, art objects, etc. 3. Other than the class features, does the rider's AC get any benefit from actually riding on a dragon? He's a good deal bigger than me, and things like his head, neck, wings, and tail could obstruct the ability of attackers, especially ranged ones, to aim for me. Obviously, the dragon should be an easier target to hit, logisticswise, even if his actual AC might be substantial. Would a rider get a cover bonus, at least against low-ground foes? I've had a few PCs with flying mounts in my campaigns, and granting them a cover bonus from ground-based foes (especially while you are in the air) is reasonable. 4. Do you need a weapon with Reach to actually melee fight from dragonback? I can't imagine that a sword is a good weapon to use from there, except in one or two stunts I can imagine. Lances are good (dragonlances better, as I don't think they shatter at DC 8 with the Tremendous Charge feat), but that leaves only lances and spears, as they can extend beyond the dragon's wingspan and nec/tail range. These, however, aren't necessarily as good in melee without the dragon, should he not be around, or injured. If you're riding the ECL 13 Large-size very young gold dragon (or something similarly sized), swords and other non-reach weapons are fine. Large-size dragons occupy a 10 foot space and have only a 5 foot reach, except their bite which has a 10 foot reach. 5. In Krynn, do Dragon Riders ever choose to purchase barding for their dragon mounts? Dragons are pretty durable to begin with, but a layer of fine metal plate on certain areas might not hurt, especially enchanted against projectiles, like arrows. Still, dragons are intelligent and prideful. They might not like the idea that their own scales aren't enough, and they polymorph often, so I don't know how well it would work. Dragons are, like you said, intelligent creatures. If barding would help it I can't see why any dragon, Krynn or otherwise, would be opposed to the idea. As for dragon riders choosing to purchase barding for their mounts, I don't recall any off-hand, but it seems likely some rider somewhere would have. I don't recall how it went in 3.0, but in 3.5 when a creature polymorphs all the gear on that creature melds into the new form and becomes non-functional, so even if a dragon did have barding it wouldn't be much of an issue as far as polymorph is concerned. 6. In the world of Krynn, where does one find a silver dragon, to beseech of them to become mounts/cohorts in the first place? In the Age of Mortals there are a large number of silver dragons that lair on the Isle of Sancrist and the nearby isle of Crystine. Aside from that your next best bet would be the Dragon Isles archipelago north of Ansalon, homeland to all the metallic dragons.
#3 cam_banks Nov 06, 2006 14:17:40	Don't forget that bronze dragons are LG, also, and a good deal easier to get hold of at a useful ECL. Cheers, Cam
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 06, 2006 15:49:45	Valid points all, and thank you very much. I just didn't see dragons, Krynn or or otherwise, spending from their hoard. It's money that just sits there, because that's what dragons do. If my inexperience with Krynn has shown through, well then I'm wrong, and that's fine. The crux of my story was supposed to be that my character, King Elric Brokenblade, a true Paladin of Paladine (until recently), was to ride Snowfire, a now young adult silver dragon born on the same day as he was. I suppose I can follow one of three options. Option 1: I ride a Snowfire until at some point, the levels work, and while he was a juvenile dragon, he became my cohort. Until then, I am riding a dragon who, while being present, won't be receiving all the benefits of the prestige class until later. Option 2: I reduce Snowfire to a juvenile dragon, and make both slightly younger. Option 3: I go through several other dragons, on the way up to Snowfire, so that the usefulness of the character class persuades the continued progression in it. Either way, it now seems that the character as written (http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/King_Brokenblade.html) will need some slight rewriting. Even Paladin 10/Dragon Rider 10 doesn't seem to be enough to have the young adult silver dragon cohort.
#5 cam_banks Nov 06, 2006 20:49:48	You can see some of the shortfalls of the class just by looking over the various combinations! The main problem, obviously, is that it's just not very easy to play a character with a powerful and (mostly) obedient and loyal mount like a silver dragon, no matter what level you are. There are major balance issues with such a character, especially compared to his unmounted companions. The truth is, for the most part the classic image of the dragon-riding knight of Krynn is something best left for special occasions and major conflicts, not a day-to-day relationship. Such was most certainly the case in the latter stages of the War of the Lance. Cheers, Cam
#6 zombiegleemax Nov 08, 2006 2:32:57	Well, sadly, I like them better than the Wizards of High Sorcery. Maybe later books restructured it significantly, but whether they now have to be specialists or not, the PrC gives little bonus, especially with the Towers being MIA. I can't believe a few WoHS haven't banded togeher, combined resources, forged a makeshift "tower", and allowed others to receive something akin to the Tower Resources and such bits of the PrC. If members didn't skulk around, forcing any 4+level wizard/sorcerer to join, only the first level of it would seem worth it. Why take a PrC I won't benefit from? Dragon Riders, on the other hand, I liked, but I never really felt of Dragonlance as epic-level oriented. I suppose Raistlin and Fistandantalus are two fine examples of epic pillars of power (mostly), but not too many others scream to me "I'm 20th lvl+", and accomplished Dragon Riders almost seem to have to be epic, with any young adult dragon seemingly ECL 20+, and any Rider having to be higher level than that ECL. I grant that dragons are powerful, but still, I wish it was SLIGHTLY easier. I guess it could just be another PrC aimed at NPC characters, like many FRCS ones I won't take the time to name here. At least Legendary Tactician is cool, and it might even help get the Leadership score for that dragon cohort.
#7 iltharanos Nov 08, 2006 17:00:03	Since you're playing the Age of Mortals, you should know that there are now two Towers of High Sorcery open, with one of them being the Tower of Wayreth. I don't want to spoil it too much for you though, so I won't tell you the identity of the 2nd tower (it's not what you'd think).
#8 zombiegleemax Nov 08, 2006 23:55:56	Ah, well I stand corrected again. As for spoilers, well I won't mind, but other readers might, so thanks. So, are the WoHS still specialist-required? I read that Jamie Chambers said that wasn't necessary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20031228a), but I haven't gotten to see the rest of the Dragonlance RPG books, and I wanted to know if they rewrote that bit. As for Dragon Riders (the thread focus) might both use the same AC? Could you really hit a poor AC human on the back of a dragon you can't? I suppose natural armor, often the bulk of the dragon's AC might be what makes it so hard to hit, but I thought I'd ask, nonetheless. To that end, do they both make Reflex saves for damage from area spells?
#9 iltharanos Nov 09, 2006 10:58:35	Ah, well I stand corrected again. As for spoilers, well I won't mind, but other readers might, so thanks. So, are the WoHS still specialist-required? I read that Jamie Chambers said that wasn't necessary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20031228a), but I haven't gotten to see the rest of the Dragonlance RPG books, and I wanted to know if they rewrote that bit. There's a supplement called Towers of High Sorcery which focuses on the Wizards of High Sorcery. In addition to High Sorcery-related prestige classes, they did some slight revision to the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class. Essentially you need not be a specialist to join. In fact, you can even be a generalist and then upon acquiring the prestige class can become a specialist if you wanted, though it's not required. As for Dragon Riders (the thread focus) might both use the same AC? Could you really hit a poor AC human on the back of a dragon you can't? I suppose natural armor, often the bulk of the dragon's AC might be what makes it so hard to hit, but I thought I'd ask, nonetheless. Since they are still two seperate creatures, their own seperate ACs make sense. A dragon rider already has a big advantage riding upon a dragon, acquiring the dragon's AC on top of those advantages would be a bit much. To that end, do they both make Reflex saves for damage from area spells? Yep. EDIT: I forgot about the Mighty Steed feat from the Bestiary of Krynn, it allows a dragon rider to consider his dragon mount to be one size category larger for purposes of riding. So a medium dragon rider could ride a medium dragon mount.