Does anyone know if Kevin Melka (I talked to him when I was on AOL about 9-10 years ago when I was on AOL's TSR forum) has an e-mail address and if I could contact him. I'm also going to see if AOL has some records going that far back of thier message boards.
The reason I ask is I want to write a section on Dark Sun contradictions for wikipedia, and one section will be on the ones surrounding Rise and Fall of a Dragon King by Lynn Abbey, there was one note in which he said most of it has no real bearing, as much of it contradicts other sources.
By the way, is it possible for me to get some copies of DS novels and books in PDF format? I just want the exact quotes for the contradictions. I have it in text format right now. Here's what I have sofar the ones I know of. it's in word format:
==Rise and Fall of Dragon King by Lynn Abbey contradictions==
1. Was Kalak a Champion?
• No- Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
• Yes- City State of Tyr Book, Revised Dark Sun Boxed Set
2. Who is the Champion Pennarin?
• According to Lynn Abbey, he is a another Champion of Rajaat, Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
• No Champion named Pennarin is mentioned in any game product of Dark Sun
3. Who made the Dark Lens
• Possibly Rajaat- Psionic artifacts of Athas
• Rajaat didn’t make the Lens according to Hamanu- Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
4. How does Hamanu know that Dregoth survived the attack on him?
• He Knows in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
• It is not mentioned anywhere how Hamanu found out about Dregoth in his undead state. Everything else indicates the last time he saw him was when he killed him in Giunstenal, prior to him becoming a Keirsharga.
5.
. Was Dregoth already at War with The Giants prior to becoming a champion?
• Yes- Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
2. Did the Champions get their living vortices from becoming Dragons or From the Dark Lens
• Dragons- Dragon Kings book
• Dark Lens- Timeline of Athas
3. Has Athas ever had any Gods?
• No- Original Dark Sun Boxed Set, City by the Silt Sea Book
• Yes- The Verdant Passage Novel by Troy Denning, Earth, Air, Water and Fire accessory
4. The nature of Grak’s pool
• It is run and managed by Grak, who charges fees for the collection of water from it. Original Dark Sun Boxed Set
• It is named Grak’s pool because Grak was killed by a water priest using the Curse of the Choking Sands spell, after he spilled the water from a barrel because there was no treasure there, creating an oasis from the water. Earth, Air Water and Fire
6. Kalid-Ma
• Was Killed by the combined efforts of Borys, Kalak and Hamanu and his consciousness can be restored and is stored within his orbs Psionic Artifacts of Athas.
• Was Transported to Ravenloft and is hidden in a Coma and his high templar Thankok An can still get spells from him and serves as Darklord Domains of Dread
7. How did the Giants come about on Athas
• They came about from the rebirth, like the other rebirth races City by the Silt Sea
• Two Dwarves named Saram or Jo’orsh stole the dark lens from Borys from the Pristine Tower, and became the First Giants of the Saram (beasthead) and Jo’orsh (regular giants) races The Obsidian Oracle a Novel by Troy Denning
That one is probably the most illogical, even for a fantasy game, how do two dwarves (undead mind you) propegate a race? Even if they were alive, and male and female, one male and one female wouldn't be enough.
7. How did Elves come about on Athas.
• They migrated here from high elves from another world The complete Elves Handbook
• They came about during the rebirth, Many sources, The Cerulean Storm by Troy Denning, City by the Silt Sea, Revised Dark Sun Boxed set
Nonetheless, good luck on your endeavor!
That all I got!
AFAIK, Kevin Melka is part of Digital Adventures these days. Their email is [email]contact@digitaladventures.net[/email]. You might be able to reach him through them. Or you can try reaching him through the Fantasy Grounds forum: http://forums.fantasygrounds.com/forums/member.php?u=4374
Oh, another contradiction:
Which merchant house runs, and has a monopoly on, the village of Walis?
House Tomblador: Wanderer's Journal, Wanderer's Chronicle.
House Ardian: Dune Trader.
Kevin Melka, I believe, participated in a Dark Sun designer Q&A on this forum. Someone on this forum, or maybe it was an Athas.org member, coordinated with Melka to answer some fan questions so maybe that person could get in touch again.
http://athas.org/articles/kevinmelka.php
Yeah, so, it's not linked from anywhere but the news archives ... One of those little things that falls through the cracks when you fail to be DRY. :self-flagilates:
Which merchant house runs, and has a monopoly on, the village of Walis?
House Tomblador: Wanderer's Journal, Wanderer's Chronicle.
House Ardian: Dune Trader.
I figured that Tomblador own or have control of Ardian, and their access to Walis' gold is Tomblador's secret wealth that is referred to in Dune Traders.
According to Lynn Abbey, he is a another Champion of Rajaat, Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
• No Champion named Pennarin is mentioned in any game product of Dark Sun
How is that a "contradiction?" Pavek wasn't in the pentad either. Nor was Rajaat's daddy. Does that mean Rajaat was a virgin birth? ;)
3. Has Athas ever had any Gods?
• No- Original Dark Sun Boxed Set, City by the Silt Sea Book
• Yes- The Verdant Passage Novel by Troy Denning, Earth, Air, Water and Fire accessory
What's a "God?" If Athas never had gods in the sense that some folks understand them, that doesn't mean they never had anything that someone could call a god.
5.
. Was Dregoth already at War with The Giants prior to becoming a champion?
• Yes- Rise and Fall of a Dragon King
Where's the contradiction?
If you want ridiulous contradictions, try the quasi-official online timeline. The "Time of Magic" started 3193 years before anyone outside the Pristine Tower had even heard of wizards.
84th King's Age -King's Defiance; Free Year -8143 (from Official Timeline)
After nearly two centuries of experiments Rajaat discovers the basics of magic, but is nearly killed in the process. After recovering he leaves the Jagged Cliffs and travels to the Pristine Tower to refine the magic process, creating defiling and preserving magic. The Time of Magic begins.
125th King's Age - Guthay's Reverence; Free Year -4950 (from "Official" Timeline)
After three eons of study, Rajaat emerges from the Pristine Tower to teach magic to the Rebirth races. He teaches preserving magic openly, and defiling magic in secret to those of "questionable" character. For the next 1,500 years Rajaat studies how magic interacts with the Rebirth races, and decides that humans have the most potential of all to suit his needs.
So ... for the first 3193 years of the so-called "time of magic," nothing outside the Pristine Tower was palpably different from the Green Age, and yet it was a totally new historical period?
That's like saying that the "Iron Age" started back at the time that ug the caveman first threw a piece of an iron meteorite at a sabre tooth tiger.
That's like saying that the "Iron Age" started back at the time that ug the caveman first threw a piece of an iron meteorite at a sabre tooth tiger.
How do we know that it was a meteorite! Where are your sources man! You just can't go making up this stuff all willy-nilly.
How do we know that it was a meteorite! Where are your sources man! You just can't go making up this stuff all willy-nilly.
yeah man. pick: willy or nilly.:D
How is that a "contradiction?" Pavek wasn't in the pentad either. Nor was Rajaat's daddy. Does that mean Rajaat was a virgin birth? ;)
The Revised Dark Sun boxed set mentions all the Champions, why doesn't it mention Pennarin? And what race was he to exterminate? And there is evidence for sexual reproduction in Dark SunMuls for example
What's a "God?" If Athas never had gods in the sense that some folks understand them, that doesn't mean they never had anything that someone could call a god.
It's simple, one says it might have gods, (EAF and water) one says it never has and never can. I'm going to debate the definition of a god, just whether it says they've had them or not
And Rise and Fall is chock full of incosistencies.
Color me surprised. A novel got something wrong.
Me, I'm not one to say that the boxed sets had the comprehensive list of all Champions. Some Champions were removed and new ones put in place. Troy Denning said it was plausible that Rajaat has set up Champions who never set foot in the Tablelands region... and thus IMO it can be argued they who not be recorded in the histories of the region.
As far as gods, one must also look what sort of voice is claiming the fact. Is it a narrative expressing the belief of the NPC person voicing it? Or is it the voice of the dispassionate designer. I seem to believe that every source that can be used to back up the claim on gods can be pointed as not being definitive, as being a biased observer. The contradictions are simple different opinions of NPCs.
It's simple, one says it might have gods, (EAF and water) one says it never has and never can. I'm going to debate the definition of a god, just whether it says they've had them or not
If you crunch the numbers, one plus one is two. "It" is singular. Multiple sources should be plural. I believe the operating word is "they." Let's not take bunch of different books and call them "it"; that's the fundamental error of fundamentalism. Two different sources, two different contexts, and possibly two absolutely different usages of the word.The Revised Dark Sun boxed set mentions all the Champions,
Who says that it mentions *all* the champions?why doesn't it mention Pennarin?
That's not a contradiction.And what race was he to exterminate?
That's not a contradiction, either.And there is evidence for sexual reproduction in Dark Sun
There's also evidence that none of the sources intended to tell the whole story.
I've listed inconsistencies in the sources above; I'm not arguing that the material's all consistent. But a great deal of what you've listed isn't inconsistency.
Color me surprised. A novel got something wrong.
Me, I'm not one to say that the boxed sets had the comprehensive list of all Champions. Some Champions were removed and new ones put in place. Troy Denning said it was plausible that Rajaat has set up Champions who never set foot in the Tablelands region... and thus IMO it can be argued they who not be recorded in the histories of the region.
And what about all the races that are not on the Champion list?
The Pyreen Chucker?
The Grimlock Extractor?
The Slig Sucker?
The Ettin Thumper?
The Meazel Masher?
The Kenku Kicker?
The Pyreen Punter?
The Nikaal Noogier?
These are all races that came about after the rebirth. Why didn't Rajaat want to kill those guys?
I think the best course is to assume that none of the lists of champions are definitive.
As far as gods, one must also look what sort of voice is claiming the fact. Is it a narrative expressing the belief of the NPC person voicing it? Or is it the voice of the dispassionate designer. I seem to believe that every source that can be used to back up the claim on gods can be pointed as not being definitive, as being a biased observer. The contradictions are simple different opinions of NPCs.
This is an arguement that has been going on since October of 1990. I am forced to say this: there are no gods in Athas. If there were gods, you would have to ask the Athasians.
I personally like the idea that if you were to travel back in time to the Green Age, they would be telling storied about how the Gods abandoned Athas in the Blue Age. And if you traveled back to the Blue Age the Rhulisti would be telling stories about how the Gods abandoned them and left for the stars.
There's also evidence that none of the sources intended to tell the whole story.
Indeed. And this applies to a lot of other things as well. For example, if one looks at Defiler & Preservers, the Revised Boxed Set, and the Timeline, you find out the story they tell about the Time of Magic, Preserver Jihad, Cleansing Wars, Rebirth, and the like, are only fragments. Each source holds a piece. If you look at the detail of the changing color of the sun, for example, one source mentions the sun turns dark at the start of the Wars, while another mentions that each Champion made by Rajaat turned the sun a little darker each time, and through another source we find out that some Champions were made later during the Wars, meaning that the sun did not just turn dark at the beggining of the Wars but throughout it.
Etc.
The same sources point to what are refered to as "defiler warlords": a term meant to describe Champions, and other times to described beings that were around before the Champions were even made. Interconnecting the ideas lead to Rajaat having defiler lieutenants during the Jihad, some he later turned into Champions. Myron was a defiler warlord made Champion.
Etc.
Not all elements of DS mythology are split such in those sources, but one other element I do remember is the Rebirth: leading to it and immediately after.
Indeed. And this applies to a lot of other things as well. For example, if one looks at Defiler & Preservers, the Revised Boxed Set, and the Timeline, you find out the story they tell about the Time of Magic, Preserver Jihad, Cleansing Wars, Rebirth, and the like, are only fragments. Each source holds a piece. If you look at the detail of the changing color of the sun, for example, one source mentions the sun turns dark at the start of the Wars, while another mentions that each Champion made by Rajaat turned the sun a little darker each time, and through another source we find out that some Champions were made later during the Wars, meaning that the sun did not just turn dark at the beggining of the Wars but throughout it.
Etc.
The same sources point to what are refered to as "defiler warlords": a term meant to describe Champions, and other times to described beings that were around before the Champions were even made. Interconnecting the ideas lead to Rajaat having defiler lieutenants during the Jihad, some he later turned into Champions. Myron was a defiler warlord made Champion.
Etc.
Not all elements of DS mythology are split such in those sources, but one other element I do remember is the Rebirth: leading to it and immediately after.
That's some very keen analysis, Pennarin. I'd missed the bit of Myron being a defiler warlord before being made Champion.
That's some very keen analysis, Pennarin. I'd missed the bit of Myron being a defiler warlord before being made Champion.
I barely remember the details though. The analysis was a year ago. I handtyped all the references from those sources in one big post which showed how each source tells less of a precise story than all sources looked at simultaneously. The conclusions were interesting, albeit the thread is now lost to time.
Mmm, I even recall that one source mentions that the Rebirth signified the end of hafling civilization, while another mentions civilized halflings continuing to live among the Rebirth races for a while, and another mentions some halflings going far away to survive the Brown Tide, and others secreting themselves beneath the earth to survive that time of change. The latter is supported by Denning's Cleft Rock, so its possible the Blue Age halfling civilization may yet rise again one day.
I barely remember the details though. The analysis was a year ago. I handtyped all the references from those sources in one big post which showed how each source tells less of a precise story than all sources looked at simultaneously. The conclusions were interesting, albeit the thread is now lost to time.
Wish you had saved it on your drive! Sounds great! Compiling info is difficult but very illuminating. I actually did that with all the novels and books when we first drafted the planar descriptions in TotDL
Mmm, I even recall that one source mentions that the Rebirth signified the end of hafling civilization, while another mentions civilized halflings continuing to live among the Rebirth races for a while, and another mentions some halflings going far away to survive the Brown Tide, and others secreting themselves beneath the earth to survive that time of change. The latter is supported by Denning's Cleft Rock, so its possible the Blue Age halfling civilization may yet rise again one day.
Hehe. Which one? NM or NB?
They will have come too late - the laser wielding, evil dolphins will have conqured the whole of the planet by then and the runts will DIE DIE DIE!!!! :evillaugh
I'm imagining this conversation in Saragar:
[INDENT]Kosveret: You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have squarks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads! Now evidently my bureaucratic colleague informs me that that cannot be done. Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?
Lawkeeper Efkenu: Athasian dolphins.
Kosveret: [pause] Right.
Lawkeeper Efkenu: They're mutated Athasian dolphins.
Kosveret: Are they ill tempered?
Lawkeeper Efkenu: Absolutely.
Kosveret: Oh well, that's a start. [/INDENT]
I'm imagining this conversation in Saragar:
[INDENT]Kosveret: You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have squarks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads! Now evidently my bureaucratic colleague informs me that that cannot be done. Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?
Lawkeeper Efkenu: Athasian dolphins.
Kosveret: [pause] Right.
Lawkeeper Efkenu: They're mutated Athasian dolphins.
Kosveret: Are they ill tempered?
Lawkeeper Efkenu: Absolutely.
Kosveret: Oh well, that's a start. [/INDENT]
lol. i can so picture doctor evil saying those first couple of lines.
