Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bengeldorn Nov 11, 2006 19:38:21	While I was trying to compile seperated lists for the summon monster spell, I noticed, that in the suggested list of ToA are no alignments for those creatures given. First I thought: "Hey, that's not a big deal, because these alignment-subtypes aren't that important for Dark Sun." So I tried to start my lists, and suddently I realised: "Well, if those summoned creatures do not have alignment-subtypes, then the protection spells against alignments could become very weak." The reason for my thinking is, that these spells (protection from chaos/evil/good/law, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law,...) basic use in game is to protect yourself against summoned creatures. Now with no alignment-subtypes, the spell wouldn't work any more. So I started to think about this problem and how I could solve this issue. My first idea was, just to add the missing alignments on the lists. Sounds easy, but it didn't appear that easy. Which plane stands for evil? Which one for good? Which one stands for chaos, which one for order? So I started to think about the planes and which alignment they could tend for. Air and Fire seem very chaotic. Water can be chaotic, but with no great seas and very few to no torrents on athas it properbly would be not chaotic, therefor lawful. Earth can be chaotic, but usually isn't. Besides if I assume that Air and Fire allready are chaotic, and need two other elements that keep the balance, therefor Earth is lawful. Ok, this didn't look that hard as I thought it would be going to be. With the simplification of air/earth/fire/water beeing neutral or good and magma/rain/silt/sun as beeing neutral or evil I had the other alignment totally covered. So tried to distinguish the para-elementals in chaos and order. I choosed silt and magma to be chaotic, whilst rain and sun would be lawful. This actually seems to work, but than there were still two planes left. The Gray and The Black. I couldn't figure out which one should be good or evil, or which one should be chaotic or lawful. It appeared as an dead end for me. So I rested this idea for a while, and I tried a different approach. What if there would be Black and Gray as subtypes? As almost no creature has alignment-subtypes in Dark Sun (at least none in ToA) it didn't seem too far fetched to replace them with other subtypes. But this would involve a lot of work. Many spells would have to be renamed and rewritten and the subtypes themself must be shaped.....and I realized, that introducing two new subtypes and deleting four, aren't a that good idea after all. So here I am....still no solltion found....almost there but yet far away.....poor me....hey!....maybe those insightful boardmembers could help!?:D
#2 Kamelion Nov 11, 2006 21:50:50	While I was trying to compile seperated lists for the summon monster spell, I noticed, that in the suggested list of ToA are no alignments for those creatures given. First I thought: "Hey, that's not a big deal, because these alignment-subtypes aren't that important for Dark Sun." So I tried to start my lists, and suddently I realised: "Well, if those summoned creatures do not have alignment-subtypes, then the protection spells against alignments could become very weak." The reason for my thinking is, that these spells (protection from chaos/evil/good/law, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law,...) basic use in game is to protect yourself against summoned creatures. Now with no alignment-subtypes, the spell wouldn't work any more. Well, that's not how those spells work. Protection from evil hedges out all non-good summoned creatures, not just specifically evil ones. So it is actually more powerful on Athas - due to the low instance of good summoned creatures it has a broader utility and works against pretty much all summoned creatures (the same applies for the other spells). So overall, it's not a large issue so I wouldn't see the need for major rules alterations. There are a couple of creatures in ToA with alignment subtypes, as well as some more in TotDL. It's true that these creatures are in the minority - this was intentional, as alignment conflicts aren't part of the DS setting on the whole. I'd agree, though, that there could probably be a few more in there. Most notably, some of the undead in TotDL would suit the addition of alignment subtypes.
#3 bengeldorn Nov 11, 2006 23:55:26	Well, that's not how those spells work. Protection from evil hedges out all non-good summoned creatures, not just specifically evil ones. So it is actually more powerful on Athas - due to the low instance of good summoned creatures it has a broader utility and works against pretty much all summoned creatures (the same applies for the other spells). So overall, it's not a large issue so I wouldn't see the need for major rules alterations. After checking my PHB you are indeed right. I was misguided by the first two sentences, which refer only to evil creatures (in case of the Protection from Evil spell). There are a couple of creatures in ToA with alignment subtypes, as well as some more in TotDL. It's true that these creatures are in the minority - this was intentional, as alignment conflicts aren't part of the DS setting on the whole. I'd agree, though, that there could probably be a few more in there. Most notably, some of the undead in TotDL would suit the addition of alignment subtypes. I wouldn't call 1 creature (Sand Bride) in ToA and none in ToDL as a couple of creatures, but I agree with the alignment conflicts not being part of the DS setting. I just assumed that the alignment conflict is big part when it comes to some spells, but this was proven wrong. ... Although, with another thought...do these spells with their names actually have their intended effect? I mean, there are very few creatures with alignment-subtypes, so that the only bonuses that would be mostly effectiv is the protection against summoned creatures, possesion, mental control and ongoing control of subject's body parts. Well, these are many parts of the spell, none of them have anything to do with a specific alignment except protection against summoned creatures, which doesn't apply in DS. Wouldn't it make sense to just change the spell name or make it as one spell? Another thing I just noticed, although Protection from Evil notes, that "Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect." all the other spells note that "... good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject." (this is just the example of Protection against Good). I wonder which one is right.
#4 Kamelion Nov 12, 2006 4:45:19	I wouldn't call 1 creature (Sand Bride) in ToA and none in ToDL as a couple of creatures, but I agree with the alignment conflicts not being part of the DS setting. I just assumed that the alignment conflict is big part when it comes to some spells, but this was proven wrong. Sand Bride and Sand Mother in ToA both have the Chaotic and Evil subtypes, and the Crimson in TotDL has the Evil subtype. I'd say that this is the very definition of "a couple" :D. Although, with another thought...do these spells with their names actually have their intended effect? I mean, there are very few creatures with alignment-subtypes, so that the only bonuses that would be mostly effectiv is the protection against summoned creatures, possesion, mental control and ongoing control of subject's body parts. Well, these are many parts of the spell, none of them have anything to do with a specific alignment except protection against summoned creatures, which doesn't apply in DS. Wouldn't it make sense to just change the spell name or make it as one spell? I would argue against this, as you don't know what creatures a DM is going to use in his game. The creatures in ToA and TotDL are just the DS-specific creatures, and not the sum total of all creatures that can appear on Athas. A DM may choose to use creatures from other sources that have alignment subtypes and so you need to leave the spells unaffected to preserve the DM's freedom of choice in that regard. For your home games, of course, you should change as much as you see fit, as you have a full picture of what your requirements are. Another thing I just noticed, although Protection from Evil notes, that "Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect." all the other spells note that "... good summoned creatures cannot touch the subject." (this is just the example of Protection against Good). I wonder which one is right. Yeah, that's not entirely clear. Thankfully I don't have to worry about all of this as I don't use alignment in my games (stupid, stupid rule), but use allegiance instead.