Some ideas I would like to get input from the community on:
Level 5/10/15/20: Armor Optimization: Change to: At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, choose one of the following benefits which applies whenever you are wearing armor you are proficient in, but not shields: +1 AC bonus; -1 armor check penalty; +1 maximum dexterity bonus; armor is treated as one category lighter (e.g. medium armor is treated as light armor). Each time this feature is gained, the gladiator must choose a different benefit.
Level 3: Improved Feint - replace with Combat Style. Either "Defensive path" (Combat Expertise) or "Offensive path" (Power Attack)
Level 7: Insightful Feint +2 - replace with Improved Combat Style. (Improved Feint) or (Cleave)
Level 11: Insightful Feint +3 - replace with Master Combat Style (Improved Disarm) or (Great Cleave)
Level 14: Parry - move to level 15 and replace mechanic with following: "Once per round the gladiator can forfeit an attack to attempt to parry an incoming melee attack. The forfeited attack has to be the one with the gladiator´s highest base attack bonus. If wielding two weapons, the parry must be made using the gladiator´s primary weapon. The gladiator makes an opposed attack roll with a -5 penalty against his attacker´s roll. If the gladiator succeeds, the attack is parried and the gladiator suffers no damage or ill effects related to the attack, including touch attacks used to deliver spells.
Level 15; Superior Feint - remove.
Level 19: Improved Parry - replace mechanic with following: As Parry, except the gladiator no longer suffers a -5 penalty to his opposed attack roll.
Thoughts?
If wielding two weapons, the parry must be made using the gladiator´s primary weapon.
Can that primary weapon be an unarmed attack?
Only other thing - isn't there an "armor optimization" feat in the PHB2 book, or some other book? I don't think that's OGL, though. That aside, I think Jon's suggestion is good although I think it should be a set progression rather than choice: armor check, then max dex, then AC, then armor category...at least if you go with this ruling. To me each of those "bonuses" aren't equal to the others - having every armor be one category lighter at 5th level, for instance, seems overpowered to me, but it's a nice "20th-level perk".
And Dirk - I kind of agree - with my option, 1/day does seem a bit under powered, but what if it were to be an ability that was gained at like 4th or 5th level and manages upwards to 4 or 5 times per day at 20th level (with even 4-5 level progression steps).
Starting at level 4 and every 4th after that would be perfect - keeps it on off-levels from the other class abilities (...at least the ones stated here).
When limited to that many times per day, I'd almost like to make it something much more potent; after all, the Ride skill, which is similar to this, can be used once/round to boost AC...but again, translating that right over to the gladiator's own AC is overpowered. So anyhoo...what if it was a flat bonus to AC, something extreme like, say add the gladiators BAB to their AC for the one attack, or maybe - rather than opting to use the ability prior to the attack - they have the option of making the roll (as you described) after the fact, maybe as an immediate action?
Level 3: Improved Feint - replace with Combat Style. Either "Defensive path" (Combat Expertise) or "Offensive path" (Power Attack)
Level 7: Insightful Feint +2 - replace with Improved Combat Style. (Improved Feint) or (Cleave)
Level 11: Insightful Feint +3 - replace with Master Combat Style (Improved Disarm) or (Great Cleave)
I like this very much.
Level 14: Parry - move to level 15 and replace mechanic with following: "Once per round the gladiator can forfeit an attack to attempt to parry an incoming melee attack. The forfeited attack has to be the one with the gladiator´s highest base attack bonus. If wielding two weapons, the parry must be made using the gladiator´s primary weapon. The gladiator makes an opposed attack roll with a -5 penalty against his attacker´s roll. If the gladiator succeeds, the attack is parried and the gladiator suffers no damage or ill effects related to the attack, including touch attacks used to deliver spells.
I'm digging this too. One thing though. There should be a line in there about not being able to parry when caught flat-footed. Don't ask me why, but it seems appropriate.
I'm digging this too. One thing though. There should be a line in there about not being able to parry when caught flat-footed. Don't ask me why, but it seems appropriate.
Agreed.
I like the suggested changes, although I'm torn between Kal and your/Jon's version of Parry - 1/day seems a little weak, but 1/round almost sounds overpowered to me.
Most campaigns I´ve DMed and played in didn´t incur more than one or two combat encounters per day, so this restriction isn´t all that effective. The parry manuever is powerful as written, but it is also a 15th level ability. One possible restriction is to only apply it against a given opponent once per encounter. Also, in a situation where you aren´t fighting one-on-one, the benefit decreases, so I am not sure it is necessary with a restriction beyond 1/round. Don´t forget you sacrifice an attack to gain the benefit of the parry - without knowing whether or not you will actually be attacked.
Armor Optimization: At 5th level, when wearing armor that you are proficient in your armor check penalty is reduced by one and maximum Dexterity bonus increases by one. Every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, 20th) your armor check penalty further decreases by one and maximum Dexterity bonus further increases by one.
This could be better worded but you get the gist.
(see above)Level 5/10/15/20: Armor Optimization: Change to: At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, choose one of the following benefits which applies whenever you are wearing armor you are proficient in, but not shields: +1 AC bonus; -1 armor check penalty; +1 maximum dexterity bonus; armor is treated as one category lighter (e.g. medium armor is treated as light armor). Each time this feature is gained, the gladiator must choose a different benefit.
There was an interesting discussion about armor optimization in the thread "For a Reforged Gladiator": [url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=612461]In that opportunity I've suggested and our community had agreed that armor optimization should work as following:
Armor Optimization: Starting at 5th level, the gladiator learns to move and position his armor to absorb blows better than it normally would. During his action, the gladiator must designate an opponent as the target of this ability. The gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC against that foe, as he moves and position his armor to turn a telling blow into a near miss. In order to receive this bonus the gladiator must be wearing armor or using a shield. The armor optimization bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level. If his armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 the gladiator may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. The gladiator can select new opponent(s) on any action. The gladiator loses this bonus whenever he loses his dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
Also, the preview of the Player's handbook II brings a new class the Knight which has an ability very similar to the concept of armor optimization showed above.
Level 3: Improved Feint - replace with Combat Style. Either "Defensive path" (Combat Expertise) or "Offensive path" (Power Attack)
Level 7: Insightful Feint +2 - replace with Improved Combat Style. (Improved Feint) or (Cleave)
Level 11: Insightful Feint +3 - replace with Master Combat Style (Improved Disarm) or (Great Cleave).
The idea is well though. In the other hand... I insist with my old suggestion about giving an ability called "wounding" to the gladiator.
Wounding: Whenever the gladiator deals damage with a bludgeoning, piercing or slashing weapon with wich he is proficient, the wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter until a Heal Check is made (DC 15), any cure spell is applied, or 5 rounds elapse. Multiple wounds are cumulative, but creatures imunes to critical hits are imune to this effect.
Make it an unique ability for the gladiator, much as fighter has "weapon specialization", brute has "rage" and ranger has favored enemies. It would be logical for gladiator to specialize, but that's the fighter's prerogative...
Also as an "artist of the arena" the gladiator must be able to wield any kind of weapon the spectacle requires him and not only the weapon in wich he is specialized.
Another reason for you not opt to specialize in Athas is that metal and magic weapons are VERY rare. So, you must be ready to use at your best skill any magic-metal weapon you eventually find in your adventurer carreer rather than expect to find the right metal/magic weapon you are specialized in.
Level 14: Parry - move to level 15 and replace mechanic with following: "Once per round the gladiator can forfeit an attack to attempt to parry an incoming melee attack. The forfeited attack has to be the one with the gladiator´s highest base attack bonus. If wielding two weapons, the parry must be made using the gladiator´s primary weapon. The gladiator makes an opposed attack roll with a -5 penalty against his attacker´s roll. If the gladiator succeeds, the attack is parried and the gladiator suffers no damage or ill effects related to the attack, including touch attacks used to deliver spells.
Level 19: Improved Parry - replace mechanic with following: As Parry, except the gladiator no longer suffers a -5 penalty to his opposed attack roll.
Thoughts?
Looks pretty balanced for me. Just please... don´t forget to give some credit to me since, the root of the idea, I guess, is based in my previous post at the thread: "Design Questions re: Gladiator's "Parry" ability". In this thread, as you remenber, I suggested a similar mechanic for the parry ability that I´m already using in my game.
Thanks in advance.
Another reason for you not opt to specialize in Athas is that metal and magic weapons are VERY rare. So, you must be ready to use at your best skill any magic-metal weapon you eventually find in your adventurer carreer rather than expect to find the right metal/magic weapon you are specialized in.
Even if this is true for adventurers, I'm not sure it holds true in the arena. There's a lot of money riding on those spectacles, so I think the better gladiators would often go out with some pretty good gear. Additionally, the crowd likes to see their favorite gladiator wielding his signature weapon for key matches, IIRC.
Maybe someone might be able to weave a rule or game benefit out of the fact that gladiators historically wore mismatched armor sets, an arm from one type of armor, a breastplate from another, a leg from another, etc.
All piecemeal armor rules I've seen have been nightmares of complexity, which leads me to think something easier is in order, like a feat or a special use of a skill.
Maybe optimizing armor could tie to keeping the full AC bonus of a higher type of armor while leaving parts out, and therefore not facing all the normal penalties for wearing the armor.
This is great!
A skill use, or feat, which one class might get as a class ability, that allows you to reduce your armor check penalties (represented - on the fluff level - as making full use of the armor while managing to rip parts of it out).
All piecemeal armor rules I've seen have been nightmares of complexity, which leads me to think something easier is in order, like a feat or a special use of a skill.
This is great!
A skill use, or feat, which one class might get as a class ability, that allows you to reduce your armor check penalties (represented - on the fluff level - as making full use of the armor while managing to rip parts of it out).
Cool! You know the gear rules, so if you like the idea, maybe I'm onto something here.
I agree with your reasoning above. In addition to the monstrous complexity of peicemeal armor rules, historically it was gladiators, not warriors, who wore that kind of stuff.
If we weren't revising the gladiator now, I'd suggest making specific "exotic" armor types that mixed specific elements of different suits, actually based on the historical Roman ones. Make them as good or almost as good as the heaviest piece involved, but with lower or no penalties to move, etc. -- but then actually require a specific feat to use that kind of armor. Having heavy armor proficiency wouldn't cover it.
But since we have a separate gladiator class, it makes sense to have this a native class ability.
Other classes could take a feat to do this as well, and a few PrCs might give it as a class ability as well.
How about...Piecemeal Armor [the class ability] could be offered several times as an option in the 20 level gladiator progression, each time its taken treating the gladiator's armor as having the Maximum Dex Bonus, Armor Check Penalty, Arcane Spell Failure Chance, as well as Speed and Weight of the next weakest armor. (Ex. Breastplate would become the equivalent of Hide in all ways except that it keeps its Breastplate AC. If in this way the armor passes from Medium to Light, then the armor is treated as light for all game mechanics dealing with light armor).
As a balancing factor, maybe this ability can only be taken once per type of armor, just like Weapon Focus.
- By removing non-essential pieces of their armor, a gladiator's movement rate is determined as if the armor was one weight category lighter than it is; an unencoumbered human gladiator in medium armor would still have a movement rate of 30 ft., for instance.
- The gladiator can increase the defensive value of his bracers and other arm protection, allowing him to use his forearms as shields. He gains a +1 shield bonus to AC as long as he is wearing armor, both arms are free to move about (they may be holding weapons), and the gladiator is not flat-footed or otherwise has lost his Dex bonus to AC. This ability may be taken multiple times and the bonuses are cumulative.
- The gladiator can reduce the weight of their armor, reducing it's weight by 25% and increasing the maximum dexterity bonus by 1.
- Removing joint armor reduces the armor check penalty by 2 and increases the max dexterity by 2, but at the cost of reducing the armor's AC bonus by 1
- The gladiator is skilled at the use of shields in combat, allowing them to treat shields as if they are one category lighter than normal for the purposes of what they can use their shield-arm for, what penalties it imposes, etc. For instance a light shield would count as a buckler, allowing the gladiator to use that hand freely (or whatever the rule is for it)
- When fighting defensively the gladiator gains an additional +1 bonus to AC and reduces their attack penalty by 1. This may be taken multiple times and the bonuses are cumulative.
I like this piecemeal armor idea, although I think it'd be better to combine it with the other Armor Optimization rules ideas already mentioned instead of writing up special rules or an additional class feat explaining how the gladiator does it. I'm not in the correct frame of mind to write up rules at the moment, but I'm thinking something along the lines of the "Bard Tricks" (or whatever the class feature is called) or special rogue abilities, where you've got a list of similar-yet-different abilities that you get to choose one of every X number of levels. Here are some ideas:
- By removing non-essential pieces of their armor, a gladiator's movement rate is determined as if the armor was one weight category lighter than it is; an unencoumbered human gladiator in medium armor would still have a movement rate of 30 ft., for instance.
- The gladiator can increase the defensive value of his bracers and other arm protection, allowing him to use his forearms as shields. He gains a +1 shield bonus to AC as long as he is wearing armor, both arms are free to move about (they may be holding weapons), and the gladiator is not flat-footed or otherwise has lost his Dex bonus to AC. This ability may be taken multiple times and the bonuses are cumulative.
- The gladiator can reduce the weight of their armor, reducing it's weight by 25% and increasing the maximum dexterity bonus by 1.
- Removing joint armor reduces the armor check penalty by 2 and increases the max dexterity by 2, but at the cost of reducing the armor's AC bonus by 1
- The gladiator is skilled at the use of shields in combat, allowing them to treat shields as if they are one category lighter than normal for the purposes of what they can use their shield-arm for, what penalties it imposes, etc. For instance a light shield would count as a buckler, allowing the gladiator to use that hand freely (or whatever the rule is for it)
- When fighting defensively the gladiator gains an additional +1 bonus to AC and reduces their attack penalty by 1. This may be taken multiple times and the bonuses are cumulative.
I really like this idea!
I suggest make it a feat or an ability wich is related to a single type of armor. Thus, the feat or ability "Armor optimization" would grant +1 max dex, reduce by 1 armor check penalty and -25% weight of a single suit of armor.
Thereafter, "improved armor optimization" could grant another +1 max dex bonus (total +2), reduces armor check penalty by 1 (total 2) and armor weigth by another 25% (total -50%), plus the armor is considered one weight category lighter.
Following this order of ideas, we could asusme that when a gladiator optimizes his armor he does it not only by removing parts of his armor, but also substituiting parts of his suit by others from lighter armors.
I don't know what it's called. The caption says "The equipment of the shown gladiators are not according to actual scientific knowledge" but that's immaterial. We aren't reproducing history; who cares if it's accurate. I've seen it in lots of art, and I believe I've heard a name for this set of armor that uses a full helm, and metal plates protecting the right arm and lower legs, a leather girdle covering the belly, and nothing else. If someone wanted to go diffing through the wikipedia and other history sites, it would be a simple matter to just identify a few sets of these exotic armor sets.
To avoid tweaking too much with the setup, and to keep things simple, I'd just call each of these custom sets "exotic armor" that requires its own feat proficiency. And then change "exotic weapon proficiency" to "exotic weapon or armor proficiency."
Let's say that we called this set "duelist's armor." Breastplate armor normally gives +5 AC.
Table 7–6: Armor and Shields
Light Armor
Padded
Leather
Studded Leather
Chitin Armor
Medium Armor
Hide
Scale Maile
Shell
Breastplate +5 AC +3 max dex bonus 20ft/15 ft speed, 30 lb.
Heavy Armor
Splint mail
Banded Main
Half-plate +7 AC 0 max dex bonus 20ft/15 ft speed (run max 3x), 50 lb.
Full-plate +8 AC +1 max dex bonus 20ft/15 ft speed (run max 3x), 50 lb.
Exotic Armor
Duelist set +5 AC +10 max dex bonus 30ft/20 ft speed
ARMOR DESCRIPTIONS
Duelist Armor: This set of armor includes uses a full shell helm. Solid shell plates protecting the right arm and lower legs, and a leather girdle covers the belly. The rest of the character's skin is unprotected. Like other forms of exotic armor, Duelist armor requires a specific exotic armor feat to obtain the benefit.
(duelist armor is just filler -- we need a better name for it)
new sets of armor that are clearly unbalanced - sorry Brax, but IMO it was
Of course it's "unbalanced" -- just look at it. It's lopsided. That's why you need a specific feat to obtain the full benefit, as with an exotic weapon. :D
Now if you meant unbalanced in the rules sense, well that's like saying that the bastard sword is "clearly unbalanced" against all other swords. Well yeah, obviously. It's meant to be. Needing an exotic weapon feat restores the balance. Why should the same principle not apply to armors?
This would be the most powerful armor out there then
No; it would be one of two or three exotic armors that would be better than the ones currently out there. The rules meisters can work out the exact numbers; I just threw those out to illustrate what Penn and I have been talking about -- a proposed gladiator ability to use a partial suit of armor as if it were complete.
Instead, why not just make a chart derived from the partial armor material that was done HERE
That's like asking why I don't take the wheels off my car to make it a better paperweight. I don't understand what your link has to do with replacing the gladiator's optimize armor ability. The point here isn't to just add complexity for complexity's sake. I have absolutely no interest in trying to reintroduce ridiculously messy piecemeal armor rules that just give min-maxers something else to tweak with and make character sheets more complicated. If you see some connection between your proposal and the gladiator revision, please clarify.
The Dragon Companion has four sets of gladiator armor; retarius, samnite, secutor and thracian. If you have access to this source they may prove useful.
Yes! Yes those were the names. I don't have the supplement, but hopefully I can find pictures online just using those names.
Looks like the type I linked to above was called the Murmillo
Of course it's "unbalanced" -- just look at it. It's lopsided. That's why you need a specific feat to obtain the full benefit, as with an exotic weapon. :D Do you balance exotic weapons against martial and simple weapons?
Even with a feat it's still overpowered IMHO.
No; it would be one of two or three exotic armors that would be better than the ones currently out there. The rules meisters can work out the exact numbers; I just threw those out to illustrate what Penn and I have been talking about -- a proposed gladiator ability to use a partial suit of armor as if it were complete.
Although the idea sounds intresting, I don't think introducing a new feat would do any good. The problem with feats is that any class could take. This feat in particular should even be a combat feat, which should be one of the feats a fighter could take as a bonus feat. I don't see how this would help to revise the gladiator.
I don't understand what your link has to do with replacing the gladiator's optimize armor ability. The point here isn't to just add complexity for complexity's sake. I have absolutely no interest in trying to reintroduce ridiculously messy piecemeal armor rules that just give min-maxers something else to tweak with and make character sheets more complicated. If you see some connection between your proposal and the gladiator revision, please clarify.
Well, I am the designer of these "ridiculously messy piecemeal armor rules". I agree that they seem very complicated and I still try to make them work better (especially masterwork armor parts). However, with these rules I had the opportunity to change the gladiator's armor optimization rules for my game, that did make some good improvements. Instead of providing bonuses to specific armor types, the gladiator chooses a zone which he likes to improve, providing him an AC bonus, increasing the MAX-Dex bonus, and decreasing the check penalty. This has worked just fine for me, but I agree that these rules are too complicated for core rules.
But this should be the only comment from my side to these rules.
Coming back to the actuall topic, as pointed out above, I don't think that armor optimization as a feat is a good idea. Introducing new amror which can be taken with a feat doesn't do any good as well IMO, as any class could take such a feat and thus the gladiator would loose some of his uniqness and could pretty well replaced by the fighter class.
So far I like Kelsen's proposal most, as it gives a good bonus, is very easy to handle, and it's a class feature, which it should be IMHO. The only thing that I could argue is the name of the bonus. ;)
Even with a feat it's still overpowered IMHO.
Remember, I said:
The rules meisters can work out the exact numbers; I just threw those out to illustrate what Penn and I have been talking about -- a proposed gladiator ability to use a partial suit of armor as if it were complete.
Although the idea sounds intresting, I don't think introducing a new feat would do any good. The problem with feats is that any class could take.
Same as exotic weapons, which a gladiator gets 1 every 4 levels. I think they should get more, since access to all weapons was the main distinguishing feature of the gladiator in 2e. Someone should set the numbers so that like with an exotic weapon, you're probably better off to use the feat on something else, but if you get it for free, it's still very neat.
This feat in particular should even be a combat feat, which should be one of the feats a fighter could take as a bonus feat.
Then don't make it a combat feat. Problem solved.
I don't see how this would help to revise the gladiator.
I'd suggest reading the thread, and the context in which I first proposed the idea to Pennarin above.
Well, I am the designer of these "ridiculously messy piecemeal armor rules".
That's a misquote. I said:
have absolutely no interest in trying to reintroduce ridiculously messy piecemeal armor rules that just give min-maxers something else to tweak with and make character sheets more complicated.
Reintroduce refers to the original set and the whole basic idea, which belongs as much in 3e as THAC0
Same as exotic weapons, which a gladiator gets 1 every 4 levels. I think they should get more, since access to all weapons was the main distinguishing feature of the gladiator in 2e. Someone should set the numbers so that like with an exotic weapon, you're probably better off to use the feat on something else, but if you get it for free, it's still very neat.
I don't like this "1 exotic weapon every 4 levels" neither. I prefer "reduce penalty for no proficiency with a certain weapon at given levels". So your argument doesn't work for me (but could for others).
Then don't make it a combat feat. Problem solved.
It is a combat feat (see RoS, p.139). Not allowing a fighter to take it as one of his bonus feats doesn't make any sense to me.
I'd suggest reading the thread, and the context in which I first proposed the idea to Pennarin above.
I did. Comment stays. :P
Reintroduce refers to the original set and the whole basic idea, which belongs as much in 3e as THAC0
But this should be the only comment from my side to these rules.
;)
My only point was that the number you put out were totally out of whack
I believe I've replied to that twice already above. Again, the numbers were never supposed to be "in whack." I was just trying to convey the general idea of a a mismatched set of armor that conveyed a lower penalty per AC than you'd get from any existing armor. In exactly the same way that exotic weapons are generally superior to martial weapons.
I fail to see how my proposal of using the chart does not apply - the type of armor you described that the Romans used is just that - partial armor. It is not a full, uniform suit of mail, but a hog-pog collection of specific parts from other suits of armor.
Which has what to do with gladiator? Telling us you fail to see how it doesn't apply doesn't help us see how it does apply.
As for armor optimization rules - once again I would like to point out a Dragon magazine (issue #310, pg.38) that has some great material in armor utilization.
Thanks! Penn, you want to take it from there? You're the gear man.
Instead, why not just make a chart derived from the partial armor material that was done HERE
Because its a program and too complex. It needs to be simple, fit in a simple table (i.e. not a giant chart) or better yet stem from a simple idea like "treat armor as one category lighter".
Why do you want to go with special, unique types of armor instead? Aren't those actualy not piecemeal armors but rather...simply additional new types of armor....like breastplate, hide, leather, retarius, samnite, secutor and thracian?
Maybe I'm missing something here...its 4AM after all. Gonna read all that back tomorrow, so be nice until then ;)
The piecemeal system in the 2ndE box was a simplified system where even if someone wore armour on a single limb, they would get SOME AC bonus from it.
I think that's the reasoning that needs to be stuck with. What if someone puts on a breast plate of Braxat hide? They get an ac bonus. Then if they add sleeves of hardened leather? They get a little more bonus.
What about Zebulon(sp?) the Black Sand Raider who wears a metal helmet and metal gloves, but still cavorts around bare chested? What bonus does he get? What if he takes off his helmet?
To try to make the system realistic would have to account for fighting styles, weapon construction, what the armour is intending to compensate for, lapses of the fighter wearing the armour, and overall fighting strategy of the wearer. Rather then trying to make a new suit for every combination you can wear, it is much easier to use the "percentage of the body covered equivalent to the percentage of the over all protection from a full suit" method. Easy chart, simple, single digit AC at the end of the player construction.
Aren't those actualy not piecemeal armors but rather...simply additional new types of armor....like breastplate, hide, leather, retarius, samnite, secutor and thracian?
You're exactly right.
Why do you want to go with special, unique types of armor instead?
To avoid falling into the complex trap that you spoke of. And because historically people didn't just slap on partial armor -- they designed and practiced with specific mismatched armor sets. A gladiator doesn't say, hmm, I think I'll wear this piece and that one. My right arm needs a tan so I'll put the arm covering on the left one today.
Brax, wasn't the 2E idea to allow for people to have partial armor? As in normal armor worn partially?
Yes. I thought that's what you wanted to get away from.
Armor Optimization (Ex): When wearing medium or light armor, the gladiator adds his Wisdom modifier (if any) to his AC. In addition, a gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five gladiator levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). He loses these bonuses when he is flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, wears heavy armor or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
I understand the need for wanting something radically unique, but sometimes the simplest solution is the best.
Once again it looks like people are not reading the whole post or all current posts before they begin to respond because here is part of a later post that you chose not to reference -
That's odd that you should say that, since you still haven't answered my question of how your propsal addresses gladiator armor optimization.
Sorry - I know it was four in the morning when you wrote you post, but I think the solution I present makes it very easy to simplify this process
To simply *what* process? You seem to be trying to provide an answer by switching the question.
- the bulk of the work has been done already, it would just need some tweaking to the rules is all.
What's the relation to Gladiator armor optimization?
And Brax - if you are going to quote a portion of my post - would you do me the courtesy of addressing the whole thing
I did address the whole thing. I said that I don't see how it relates to Gladiator armor optimization, and I asked you to make that connection clear. Do you mean you want me to quote your whole post in my reply? Penn's asked me *not* to do that, and to specifically break parts down. It's hard to keep track of everyone's personal preferences but I'll try to remember that about responding to you if you like.
- because I do say that I know you have covered your answer before in other posts, I was just making a further example is all – just trying to explain why I had said it was so far off base by using an example of the longsword and the bastard sword..
Still don't see the connection.
What part do you not see where I reference how it applies
You said "it applies" and then didn't even say what it applied to, let alone how it applied to gladiator armor optimization specifically.
- here I will quote myself to show you where I state how a chart would apply in using partial armor rules for gladiators -
If you mean under your scheme that only gladiators would be able to use this chart to create piecemeal armor, then that would relate to the discussion. Is that what you mean?
I've given this some thought and have to ask. Whats wrong with keeping AO a simple mechanic? Is there any particular reason that it can't provide an AC bonus similar to a monks?
I understand the need for wanting something radically unique, but sometimes the simplest solution is the best.
I thought the simplest suggestion was toss the class and use fighters
I agree that the simplest solution may often be the best, but in this case we seem to have chosen preserving the old feel over simplicity.
Jon and I talked about this earlier today while we were checking out caves and trying to avoid rattlesnakes, looking for a dry and stony place for tomorrow's game. Jon's more of a purist than I am with regard to the gladiator. Since gladiator was a key class in DS2, Jon thinks that it's an essential core class in DS3. Since the main argument for keeping the gladiator seems to be trying to stay true to the original, I think that we're going to want some regime of armor optimization that actually optimizes armor rather that just adding a monklike bonus to armor class.
The main theme of this thread is the review gladiator class and specially the review of armor optimization rules mechanic.
JON started the thread proposing the following mechanic for armor optimization:
Level 5/10/15/20: Armor Optimization: Change to: At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, choose one of the following benefits which applies whenever you are wearing armor you are proficient in, but not shields: +1 AC bonus; -1 armor check penalty; +1 maximum dexterity bonus; armor is treated as one category lighter (e.g. medium armor is treated as light armor). Each time this feature is gained, the gladiator must choose a different benefit.
Then KELSEN, based on the discussion of another thread ("For a reforged Gladiator"), suggested the following mechanic:
Armor Optimization:Starting at 5th level, the gladiator learns to move and position his armor to absorb blows better than it normally would. During his action, the gladiator must designate an opponent as the target of this ability. The gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC against that foe, as he moves and position his armor to turn a telling blow into a near miss. In order to receive this bonus the gladiator must be wearing armor or using a shield. The armor optimization bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level. If his armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 the gladiator may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. The gladiator can select new opponent(s) on any action. The gladiator loses this bonus whenever he loses his dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
Then BRAX proposed the creation of specific exotic armor types, based on historical gladiator piecemeal armor
If we weren't revising the gladiator now, I'd suggest making specific "exotic" armor types that mixed specific elements of different suits, actually based on the historical Roman ones. Make them as good or almost as good as the heaviest piece involved, but with lower or no penalties to move, etc. -- but then actually require a specific feat to use that kind of armor.
(...)
To avoid tweaking too much with the setup, and to keep things simple, I'd just call each of these custom sets "exotic armor" that requires its own feat proficiency. And then change "exotic weapon proficiency" to "exotic weapon or armor proficiency."
(...)
Exotic Armor
Duelist set +5 AC +10 max dex bonus 30ft/20 ft speed
(This suggestion presented by BRAX incited people to revisit the discussion about piecemeal rules, however, this matter will be left aside for the moment, since this brief summary is about armor optimization discussion exclusivelly.)
Finally, SYSANE a "forth" proposal for rebuilding armor optimization rules:
Armor Optimization (Ex): When wearing medium or light armor, the gladiator adds his Wisdom modifier (if any) to his AC. In addition, a gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five gladiator levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). He loses these bonuses when he is flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, wears heavy armor or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
So as far as it goes we have three main proposals for a reviewing armor optimization rules. We may denny all four, try to improve then, or present new ones... what we cannot do is loss the track of this thread... otherwise the voice of the community won´t be heard in the next gladiator class revision.
I thought the simplest suggestion was toss the class and use fighters
True enough. I used to think this way and felt that gladiator would be better served being a PrC. I've since been swayed to feeling they should be a base class mostly from the influx of base classes appearing in every other WotC book released in the past 2 years.
Since the main argument for keeping the gladiator seems to be trying to stay true to the original, I think that we're going to want some regime of armor optimization that actually optimizes armor rather that just adding a monklike bonus to armor class.
Well lets turn to the original gladiator OA write-up from the first box set:
He (the gladiator) conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. Provided the gladiator is wearing armor, his armor class is reduced by one for every five levels (-1 at 5th-9th level, -2 at 10th-14th level, -3 at 15th-19th level, -4 at 20th level). Thsi benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
If what I proposed isn't as true or direct of a 3.5 interpretation to the original 2e mechanic I don't know what is.
To help us to keep track of this discussion without getting lost... I will post a little review:
The main theme of this thread is the review gladiator class and specially the review of armor optimization rules mechanic.
I agree with you, that we should focus on the class review, that's why I'll add my thoughts about the suggested options.
JON started the thread proposing the following mechanic for armor optimization:Level 5/10/15/20: Armor Optimization: Change to: At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, choose one of the following benefits which applies whenever you are wearing armor you are proficient in, but not shields: +1 AC bonus; -1 armor check penalty; +1 maximum dexterity bonus; armor is treated as one category lighter (e.g. medium armor is treated as light armor). Each time this feature is gained, the gladiator must choose a different benefit.
This is a slightly modified version of ds3_r6's armor optimization. Although it represents that gladiator's can addapt almost any armor it has IMO one big flaw: Although you can get this ability more than once, it only applies once.
Then KELSEN, based on the discussion of another thread ("For a reforged Gladiator"), suggested the following mechanic:Armor Optimization:Starting at 5th level, the gladiator learns to move and position his armor to absorb blows better than it normally would. During his action, the gladiator must designate an opponent as the target of this ability. The gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC against that foe, as he moves and position his armor to turn a telling blow into a near miss. In order to receive this bonus the gladiator must be wearing armor or using a shield. The armor optimization bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level. If his armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 the gladiator may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. The gladiator can select new opponent(s) on any action. The gladiator loses this bonus whenever he loses his dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
I remember we had some big discussion especially about the name of the bonus ;), and this is IMO a very good ability, although I remembered it only applying while wearing light or medium armor, because of balancing issues.
Then BRAX proposed the creation of specific exotic armor types, based on historical gladiator piecemeal armorIf we weren't revising the gladiator now, I'd suggest making specific "exotic" armor types that mixed specific elements of different suits, actually based on the historical Roman ones. Make them as good or almost as good as the heaviest piece involved, but with lower or no penalties to move, etc. -- but then actually require a specific feat to use that kind of armor. Having heavy armor proficiency wouldn't cover it.To avoid tweaking too much with the setup, and to keep things simple, I'd just call each of these custom sets "exotic armor" that requires its own feat proficiency. And then change "exotic weapon proficiency" to "exotic weapon or armor proficiency."
(...)
Exotic Armor
Duelist set +5 AC +10 max dex bonus 30ft/20 ft speed
(This suggestion presented by BRAX incited people to revisit the discussion about piecemeal rules, however, this matter will be left aside for the moment, since this brief summary is about armor optimization discussion exclusivelly.)
The basic idea is to create new types of armor that could only be used by taking a feat (exotic armor proficiency), and that a gladiator would be able to take this feat as some sort of bonus feat. My problem with this idea is, that it would push the gladiator to the fighter class, which I don't want to happen. This alone doesn't help IMO to revise the gladiator class, however it could help to add some flavour to the setting. My point is, that this alone doesn't improve the class, but combined with class features (and I don't mean bonus feats) the setting could benift from it.
Just as a side note:I suugest to read my post again, and how my point of view about piecemeal armor is. It was never my intention to introduce as a core element for DS.
Finally, SYSANE a "forth" proposal for rebuilding armor optimization rules:Armor Optimization (Ex): When wearing medium or light armor, the gladiator adds his Wisdom modifier (if any) to his AC. In addition, a gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five gladiator levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). He loses these bonuses when he is flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, wears heavy armor or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
At first, this lookes similar to Kelsen's proposal, but yet it uses differnt mechanics. My problem with this ability is, that it is wisdom based. IMO a gladiator allready has too many attributes he has to focus on. There is also another thing I don't like about the bonus being wisdom based, but I'm too tired to find the right words to express them.
The basic idea is to create new types of armor that could only be used by taking a feat (exotic armor proficiency), and that a gladiator would be able to take this feat as some sort of bonus feat. My problem with this idea is, that it would push the gladiator to the fighter class, which I don't want to happen.
It would not push the gladiator to the fighter class. Access to exotic weapons has always been a big part of the gladiator, and we represented this with bonus exotic weapon feats. The fact that fighters can also take some exotic weapon feats does not push the gladiator over to the fighter class. In that light, it seems unlikely that giving the gladiator bonus exotic armor feats would push it over to the fighter class.
Well lets turn to the original gladiator OA write-up from the first box set:
Quote:
He (the gladiator) conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. Provided the gladiator is wearing armor, his armor class is reduced by one for every five levels (-1 at 5th-9th level, -2 at 10th-14th level, -3 at 15th-19th level, -4 at 20th level). Thsi benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
If what I proposed isn't as true or direct of a 3.5 interpretation to the original 2e mechanic I don't know what is.
When you said like the monk, I didn't understand that you meant to include the "wearing armor" requirement. If that's what you meant, then I agree that your proposal passes the simplicity and fidelity tests; we'd have to ask the relevant templars whether it passes the balance and 3.5 standard tests.
When you said like the monk, I didn't understand that you meant to include the "wearing armor" requirement. If that's what you meant, then I agree that your proposal passes the simplicity and fidelity tests; we'd have to ask the relevant templars whether it passes the balance and 3.5 standard tests.
Well, I did say "similar" to the monk's AC ability in my original post. Which implies that it would be somewhat different hence the 3.5 gladiator ability I proposed. No worries ;)
I remember we had some big discussion especially about the name of the bonus ;), and this is IMO a very good ability, although I remembered it only applying while wearing light or medium armor, because of balancing issues.
I forgot to include the limitation that this ability only applies while wearing light or medium armor, but I agree with you that this restriction is essencial for balance issues. Besides that, the ability pass in the simplicity, fidelity and specially in the balance test since there are other core classes in D&D 3.5E that adopt similar mechanics (see PHB II - Knight Class).
About Sysanne proposal's:
At first, this lookes similar to Kelsen's proposal, but yet it uses differnt mechanics. My problem with this ability is, that it is wisdom based. IMO a gladiator allready has too many attributes he has to focus on. There is also another thing I don't like about the bonus being wisdom based, but I'm too tired to find the right words to express them.
If think the problem with this proposal is balance. There is no precedent in D&D 3.5E of an ability that allows cumulative Wisdom bonus to AC and Medium/Heavy armor use. Even abilities such as bladesong and canny defense wich allows the aplication of INT bonus on AC can only be combined with light armor. Other issue is that when you conect this bonus to Wis the Gladiator may gain all the benefits in a single level, that is, you cannot scale the progression of this ability along class levels.
[b]About Sysanne proposal's:
If think the problem with this proposal is balance. There is no precedent in D&D 3.5E of an ability that allows cumulative Wisdom bonus to AC and Medium/Heavy armor use. Even abilities such as bladesong and canny defense wich allows the aplication of INT bonus on AC can only be combined with light armor. Other issue is that when you conect this bonus to Wis the Gladiator may gain all the benefits in a single level, that is, you cannot scale the progression of this ability along class levels.
Every ability doesn't need to be tied an already exisiting mechanic. However, this version of AO is based off the monks AC bonus ability but has some slight differences. Notibly, it requires the character to wear light or medium armor (monks can't wear armor at all), you lose the AC if caught flat-footed (monks retain it), and is a competence (monk's is unnamed) and therefore doesn't stack with similar effects that offer the same kind of bonus.
As far as it being Wis based, its very unlikely that a gladiator character will even have more than a +1 Wis (if any at all) mod due to the classes dependancy on having high stats in other attributes. If people find that the Wis bounus to AC is still to much, then there's the option of just making the ability grant +1 competence bonus starting at 5th level and then have it scale from there.
Every ability doesn't need to be tied an already exisiting mechanic. However, this version of AO is based off the monks AC bonus ability but has some slight differences. Notibly, it requires the character to wear light or medium armor (monks can't wear armor at all), you lose the AC if caught flat-footed (monks retain it), and is a competence (monk's is unnamed) and therefore doesn't stack with similar effects that offer the same kind of bonus.
That's the biggest problem in my view: while monks gain this bonus to compensate the absence of armor, gladiators would cumulate this bonus with light or medium armor AC bonus.
Also, we should note that according to the mechanic you are proposing the gladiator gain an AC bonus that apply to ALL foes attacking him, and not to only ONE designed foe as I proposed before.
That's the biggest problem in my view: while monks gain this bonus to compensate the absence of armor, gladiators would cumulate this bonus with light or medium armor AC bonus.
Understandable, but hardly broken compared to other things out there. As I stated before, if people feel the Wis mod to AC is to much then it could easily be dropped and made to a 5th level ability.
Also, we should note that according to the mechanic you are proposing the gladiator gain an AC bonus that apply to ALL foes attacking him, and not to only ONE designed foe as I proposed before.
I don't see the issue with it applying to more than one attacker.
Gladiator (Netherek's Version)
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills (and the Key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2+Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+ Int modifier
Code:
The Gladiator
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Unarmed Strike
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Grace +1, Arena Guile +1
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Improve Feint
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Uncanny Dodge, Exotic Weapon
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Elaborate Denfense +1
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Insightful Feint +2, Arena Guile +2
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Improve Uncanny Dodge, Exotic Weapon,
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Special Ability, Elaborate Defense +2
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Insightful Feint +4, Grace +2
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Exotic Weapon, Arena Guile +3
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Special Ability
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Elaborate Defense +3
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Special Ability, Exotic Weapon
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Arena Guile +4
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Special Ability
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Grace +3, Exotic Weapon, Elaborate Defense +4Class Features
All the following are class features of the gladiator.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Gladiators are proficient with all simple weapons, marital weapons, and three exotic weapons of their choice. They are proficient with light and medium armor, and all shields except for tower shields.
Unarmed Strike: Gladiators are highly trained at fighting unarmed, giving them condsiderable advantages when doing so. At 1st level Gladiators gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A gladiator's attack may be with either fist interchangabley or even from elbows, knees, and feet. Their is no such thing as an offhand attack for a gladiator attacking unarmed. A gladiator may thus apply her full strength bonus on damage rolls for all unarmed attacks.
Usually a gladiators unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal non-leathal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal leathal or non-leathal damage while grappling.
A gladiator's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for the purposes of spells and effects that enhace or improve either (such as the Magic Fang and Magic Weapon spells).
Arena Guile:Starting at 2nd level a gladiator recieves a +1 bonus on all combat related Bluff and Sense Motive checks. This bonus improves by an additional +1 every five levels thereafter (7th, 12th, and 17th).
Grace: A gladiator recieves a +1 competance bonus on reflex saves at 2nd level. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 20th level. A gladiator loses this bonus when wearing heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Improved Feint: Gladiators are adept at decieving their opponents. At 3rd level they gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat. A gladiator can choose to add her base attack bonus and cha modifier, instead of her Bluff to feint checks.
Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 4th level a gladiator can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to. She retains her dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However she still loses her dexterity bonus to AC if she is immobilized.
If a gladiator already has uncanny dodge from another class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels of the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Exotic Weapon: A gladiator recieves a free exotic weapon proficiency at 4th level and every four levels thereafter.
Elaborate Defense: Gladiators are highly trained in defensive combat maneuvers and special combat techniques. At 5th level a gladiator gains a +1 bonus to their AC when using the Defensive Fighting or Total Defense actions, and a +1 bonus on opposed rolls for trips, grapples, and overruns attempts when in Medium armor or less. This bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th.
Insightful Feint: At 7th level a gladiator's penalties for feinting against non-humaniods and intelligent creatures are reduced by 2. At eleventh the penalties are reduced by an additional 2.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: A gladiator of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked; she can react to opponents on opposite sides of her as well as she can react to a single attacker. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has four more rogue levels then the character has gladiator levels.
Special Ability: On attaining 10th level and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a gladiator gains a special ability of her choice from the following options.
Arena Acting: At the start of combat a gladiator may make a bluff check to create a false weakness in his/her fighting technique, those who fail to see through the trick will believe there is an opening that provides a +2 hit/dam. Those who attack this "opening" will be caught flat-footed and provoke an attack of opportunity. If this attack succeeds, the opponent will be staggered from the blow for one round. A gladiator who loses the bluff by 10 or more will expose his true flaw and the opening will be real to that opponent. This ability will only work once per battle. Those with Find Weakness who attempt it on a gladiator who is acting and fails to win, will see the "flaw" as real and fall victim to it.
Defensive Roll: The gladiator can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it then she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the gladiator can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the gladiator must make a Reflex saving throw (DC= damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attacker and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll--if she is denied her dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a reflex save for half, the evasion ability does not apply to a defensive roll.
Evasion: A gladiator with this ability can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a breath weapon or a Fireball spell), she instead stakes no damage. Evasion can only be used if the gladiator is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless gladiator (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefits of evasion.
Find Weakness: Experienced gladiators are adept at finding holes in an opponents combat techniques. During combat a gladiator may spend a move action to detect flaws in the opponent's fighting ability.This is performed by making an opposed roll, the attacker uses BAB + Int modifier, and the defender uses BAB +Wis modifier. If the gladiator wins, he may at anytime later in that encounter make a called shot to hit at a -2, if the hit is successful the blow counts as an automatic threat, (check for critical as normal with the -2). This technique may only be performed once successfully per opponent, per encounter as the opponent will correct his flaw after being taken advantage of.
Opportunist: Once per round, the gladiator can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as one of the gladiator's attacks of opportunity for the round. Even a gladiator with the combat reflexes feat cannot use this ability more than once per round.
Weapon Specialization: A gladiator may choose to specailize in a weapon, even if he does not met the regular prerequisite of being a 4th level fighter. He must still have the weapon focus feat for that weapon. This special ability may be taken multiple times, each time it applies to a different weapon.
Bonus Feat: A gladiator may select a bonus feat in place of a special ability. This feat must be choosen from the list of fighter bonus feats, Elusive Target or Armor Optimization, but she cannot select any formation feats or new athas.org feats.
Armor Optimization (revision)
You are adept at the use of a certain type of armor.
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: Choose a type of armor you are proficient in (light, medium, or heavy). When wearing that type of armor your armor check penalty is reduced by one, and you max dex is increased by one.
Grummore told me you guys were bringing back the issue of gladiators.
Did anybody took a look at the thread "For a reforged gladiator".
We came up with a pretty descent reforged gladiator version, IMHO...but I never got any feedback on it and it never got around to be play tested.
Do I need to repost it here? (I have it somewhere in my files...)
1. Disparate suits used by various gladiators or armies
2. The option to use a complex or simple form of piecemeal armor rules
Vis-a-vis piecemeal armor:
The prior edition rules for piecemeal armor could be simple because you only really had to deal with two things - AC bonus and weight. (If you used the optional durability rules from the Complete Fighter's Handbook, you were on your own there.) In the 3.5e, you also have to compute max dex and armor check penalty. This means that tables and computations for partial armor become much more complicated because now you have two more numbers to track.
One of the other problems is that the current athas.org release doesn't even bother restricting heavy armor access. It simply states that armorsmiths on Athas use chitin, shell, bone, etc. to make the equivalents of heavy armor. If that's the case, then there's no reason not to wear full plate (made of chitin) and buy it cheap. Part of the impetus for the partial armor rules is flavor - the ability to run around with a single scale arm guard, for instance - and part of it is economic/pragmatic: You can get away with wearing one full plate arm piece without necessarily totally destroying your ability to handle the heat or killing your pocketbook.
So, two things are actually needed:
* A simple system for making piecemeal armor available - even in the form of "I scrounged up a metal scale arm piece in a ruin and I wear it 'cause it's better than studded leather," not just for complete sets of specially-designed partial armor (Thracian gladiator armor, etc.)
* A recognition that even on Athas, most heavy armor will need to be made of iron, and therefore won't be readily available - thereby making characters willing to use even a single piece of metal armor if they can get it (assuming they have some heat protection)
Here are my recommendations in that regard.
PIECEMEAL ARMOR
Due to circumstances or economics, characters in DARK SUN may find themselves donning mismatched pieces of armor, as they scrounge bits of various suits in order to garner whatever protection they may. A warrior may loot a single legging from a downed opponent on the field of battle and wear an arm-piece recovered from an ancient tomb, while his torso protection comes from a leatherworker in town. A seedy trader may only have a single piece of iron armor available, but note that it provides better protection than simple leather. The following rules provide a solution for the use of piecemeal armor.
COMPONENTS: Piecemeal armor comes in five essential components -- two legs, two arms, and the torso. Other bits and pieces (gloves, boots, helmets) may have an impact on certain specific situations (such as a bootless character running across a hot obsidian flat) but do not impact the overall protection, weight, or modifiers of the armor.
Each arm and each leg counts as one-eighth of a total suit of armor. The torso counts as half of a suit.
ARMOR BONUS: The armor bonus for a piece of armor is based on its coverage compared to the normal full armor's value. A torso piece, therefore, is worth half the armor bonus of a full suit of the given type. A single arm is worth one-eighth of a suit, while a pair of legs is worth a quarter. The armor bonus from a given piece equals this fraction times the armor's normal value. Because fractional coverage may be significant, be sure to keep any fractions from pieces of armor, then add them together and round the resulting total number down. For instance, a character wearing two leather leggings (1/4 of +2) and two scale arms (1/4 of +4) with a studded leather torso (1/2 of +3) would gain +1/2 for the leggings, +1 for the arms, and +1 1/2 for the torso, for a total armor bonus of +3.
[DEV. NOTE: I can make a table for these values pretty easily later today.]
MAX DEX, ARMOR CHECK PENALTY, ARCANE SPELL FAILURE, and SPEED: When a character wears piecemeal armor, use the max dex, armor check penalty, arcane spell failure, and speed from the *worst* piece in the entire set.
If a character has lighter armor (or no armor) on the arms or legs than he has on the torso, improve the max dex by one and reduce the armor check by one. If the character has lighter armor (or no armor) on *both* the arms and legs, then improve the max dex by two and reduce the armor check by two. (Wearing lighter armor on the torso than on the limbs does not gain a bonus; the loss of mobility to the limbs is more hindering than the loss of bending in the torso.)
WEIGHT: Base the weight on the fractions of the full suit. For instance, a suit of studded leather normally weighs 20 lb. A single arm therefore weighs one-eighth of this amount, or 2.5 lb. Remember to keep fractions - encumbrance of some items goes as low as tenths of a pound.
HEAT: Group together armor by the category that it falls under. A character is subject to heat effects based on the armor type and category for any armor worn on two limbs or on the torso. For instance, a character with a studded leather sleeve and a padded legging, but nothing else, is considered to be wearing light nonmetal armor. A character with an iron breastplate on the torso but no other coverage is considered to be wearing medium metal armor.
MASTERWORK PIECES: Treat masterwork piecemeal armor as usual. The increase in cost applies as a fraction based on the size of the piece. A single arm, therefore, costs an extra (1/8)*(150) = 18.75 cp. The improvement in armor check penalty will automatically be counted in the rules for armor check, above.
ENHANCEMENT BONUSES: The character gains enhancement bonuses to AC from magical or metaphysical armor only if the armor covers the torso or at least two limbs. Only apply the best bonus from the whole set. Thus, a single +3 leather sleeve gives no bonus, but a +1 scale torso gives its +1 enhancement bonus. If a character wore both of these and then donned a pair of +2 banded leggings, he would gain the bonus from the banded armor instead of the scale armor (enhancement bonuses to AC from armor don't stack, so only use the best one).
FEATS and CLASS ABILITIES: If a character has a feat or class ability that applies only to specific types or categories of armor, the character only gains the bonus for wearing a suit composed solely of that type or category. For instance, a character wearing a banded sleeve and a banded legging but no other armor, in conjunction with the feat Heavy Armor Optimization, gains the bonuses of the feat. If the character adds a leather torso, he no longer gains the benefits of the feat.
METAL ARMOR
There is little substitute for using metal in heavy armor. Any armor below scale mail on the armor and shields table of the PHB must be made using metal. A chain shirt must also be made using metal.
Metal has an increased cost, and this affects the value of the armor, whether it is bought piecemeal or in a whole suit.
In addition to iron armor, characters may be able to find bronze. Bronze armor is described in the DMG, under the variant technology/cultural weapons and armor section.
Metal armor is especially dangerous in the heat of the Dark Sun. Characters wearing metal armor in very hot weather may suffer damage due to contact with the metal, as described in Sandstorm.
Note that while metal armor is potentially life-threatening in extreme heat, it has much better durability (reflected in the hit point and hardness) than armor made of leather, bone, chitin, shell, or scales.
One of the other problems is that the current athas.org release doesn't even bother restricting heavy armor access. It simply states that armorsmiths on Athas use chitin, shell, bone, etc. to make the equivalents of heavy armor. If that's the case, then there's no reason not to wear full plate (made of chitin) and buy it cheap.
There are game balancing reasons behind the decision to allow all armor types made of alternate materials. However, please also note that heavy armors do have an unfortunate side effect. See the following quote from DS Core Rules.
Heat and Armor
Heat has a disastrous effect on those wearing armor or heavy clothing. Apply the armor check penalty of a given suit of armor (and shield) as a penalty to Fortitude saves vs. heat. For example, hide armor incurs a -3 penalty. A masterwork hide armor would incur a -2 penalty. This rule replaces the DMG’s simplified -4 save penalty for wearing heavy clothing and any form of armor. Clothing no longer incurs a save penalty. Athasians use clothing to effectively shield themselves from the sun.
My current Dark Sun game group considers heavy armor to be made of metal and thus expensive, and it has not caused any balance problems.
I have had to improvise on heat damage rules, because there's some disconnect between the athas.org system and the rules presented in Sandstorm.
There are game balancing reasons behind the decision to allow all armor types made of alternate materials. However, please also note that heavy armors do have an unfortunate side effect. See the following quote from DS Core Rules.
Heat and Armor
Heat has a disastrous effect on those wearing armor or heavy clothing. Apply the armor check penalty of a given suit of armor (and shield) as a penalty to Fortitude saves vs. heat. For example, hide armor incurs a -3 penalty. A masterwork hide armor would incur a -2 penalty. This rule replaces the DMG’s simplified -4 save penalty for wearing heavy clothing and any form of armor. Clothing no longer incurs a save penalty. Athasians use clothing to effectively shield themselves from the sun.
I have had to improvise on heat damage rules, because there's some disconnect between the athas.org system and the rules presented in Sandstorm.
Sandstorm's a fantastic book, but unless you can convince the powers that be to SRD it, we can't reproduce any of its rules. If you want to submit articles that suggest how to interface our core rules with Sandstorm, I'll bet that we'd review and put them up on Athas.org. But I'd strongly oppose using our own personnel to write such connection rules. As it is we've spent too many resources developing rules materials and not enough on city, regional, and adventure modules.
Level 14: Parry - move to level 15 and replace mechanic with following: "Once per round the gladiator can forfeit an attack to attempt to parry an incoming melee attack. The forfeited attack has to be the one with the gladiator´s highest base attack bonus. If wielding two weapons, the parry must be made using the gladiator´s primary weapon. The gladiator makes an opposed attack roll with a -5 penalty against his attacker´s roll. If the gladiator succeeds, the attack is parried and the gladiator suffers no damage or ill effects related to the attack, including touch attacks used to deliver spells.
Level 15; Superior Feint - remove.
Level 19: Improved Parry - replace mechanic with following: As Parry, except the gladiator no longer suffers a -5 penalty to his opposed attack roll.
Thoughts?
I like the Armor optimization stuff here and that presented below, but the Parry rules get to me.
It seems like a little too random for me. Why not make it something like deflect arrows. Only, not as often. Granted, once per round being able to deflect a melee attack if you know it is coming and are not flat footed would be darn nice, but making it once per round would be too powerful I think, since melee attacks generally dish out more than ranged attacks.. I am willing to suggest something like once per day per level, and make it a 1st level ability (or at 6th level you can do it 3x per day, and 1x per 2 levels thereafter.. whatever). You can wait till after you know if an attack is hitting you before you declare a deflect, but you must declare before damage is rolled (or announced in any case). This way, you can deflect the first strike in a round, or wait to see if a "bigger" opponent is going to strike at you. And should you wait, and it comes to be that that one attack was all you took, well you just missed a chance to deflect a shot.
Anyway, that is what I suggest, and probably how I would handle it in my game.
Game balancing factors such as . . . ?
My current Dark Sun game group considers heavy armor to be made of metal and thus expensive, and it has not caused any balance problems.
I have had to improvise on heat damage rules, because there's some disconnect between the athas.org system and the rules presented in Sandstorm.
Athas.org solution ensures balances but loses flavor. Ok even if athas.org insist that prohibiting heavy armor would break game balance we cannot simple say thta just because you are in athas you can easily substitute metal for other non-metal material to produce non-metal heavy armor as good as the ones we have in the PHB.
There are two clever options here to be taken:
Or athas.org try to design specific heavy armor for dark sun, with a flavourful description, much like Bengeldorn suggestions in the other topic called piecemeal armor suits (see tyrian war suit and medium-tyr-armor). Even so, the dark sun non-metal heavy armors should be less effective than metal armor.
Or athas.org may assume that heavy armor (AC bonus +5 or higher) can only be made with metal. I don't think that reintroducing heavy armor restriction in DS would absolutely break game balance. I remember in the Forgotten Realms campaing setting there was a place near Anauroch were the rules stated that in such a place any character wearing armor with armor check penalty -5 or higher, for more than 1 hour become fatigued (-2 str, -2 dex, cannot charge or run). Other desert camping accessories used to restrict the use of heavy armor too without a great break in game balance.
We have replaced some PHB armors already, in case you have forgotten about chitin armor and shell armor.
Yes Jon. You have replaced the names of armors without creating anything new. I think we cannot just relabel the armor and say right in athas it works just like the chain mail. Ok thta it was in the begging of the conversion but I think now is time to review and improve it.
People here suggested creating new types of heavy armor, flavourly converted to dark sun, not only mechanical.
I'm my game I try to be most purist as I can... so I restrict the use of heavy armor. I assume that chain mail or better can only be made with metal. It may sound very strict for some DMs here but it works and keeps the flavour of the setting.
Good heat rules also serve to ensure the restriction of heavy armor. The heat rules from sandstorm are quite good but unfortunatelly cannot be used by athas.org.
P.S.: To be fair: When I said athas.org doens't created anything new, I'm refering only to armor, because in all other aspects athas.org has created a lot of good stuff.
We have a huge equipment project going on, and I wouldn´t be surprised if some new armors were in the making. Penn/Meth?
The equipment guide only contains information on Athasian foodstuffs, household goods, and I think there's a couple weapons in there. But that's it. It's only a "huge project" in the sense that it'll be released in 36-point, bolded text.
Yes Jon. You have replaced the names of armors without creating anything new. I think we cannot just relabel the armor and say right in athas it works just like the chain mail. Ok thta it was in the begging of the conversion but I think now is time to review and improve it.
People here suggested creating new types of heavy armor, flavourly converted to dark sun, not only mechanical.
Well I think Shell Armor is a valid idea. That fact that it has been just sloted be identical to an exsisting armor is a little annoying, but if you think about some of the creatures running around Athas, you could make so pretty heavy armor out of their shells.
As to the issue of Heat, if your character is ever able to acquire Fire Resistance, then it becomes a non issue. In my game I have allowed heavier armors made from Bronze to be somewhat available, but not as effect an just as prone to heat issues.
Dirk has unmasked me. But its not 36, it's 40-point!! Its 80 pages of dry boring items, so in columns it might be 70, with text perhaps 80 again.
Seriously, there are mundane weapons - Kal mad one or two of those - but no mundane armor types. We're perfectly in sync with athas.org's idea to simply rename the armors so they are now defined to be made of this or that other material instead of metal.
Outside of that, nothing's to stop there being actual gladiatorial armors. Its a bit of a specialization, while armors are meant to be general, but nothing's to stop us to say that these armors, long ago invented to benefit gladiators, have since made their way to individuals such as mercenaries, army units, bodyguards...i.e. are more common now.
Kamelion made some new armors once. Mark? You out there?
They weren't really new armours. I used the expanded list of armours in the Arms & Equipment Guide and gave them a DS-twist. Combined with the armour in the DS3e Core Rules, it makes for a full, flavourful list of different armours. If you have the A&EG, you can see the expanded list in there, and Dave Noonan did something similar in the Paizo DS conversion. I can't be bothered to type it out, but if anyone wants a pdf, just drop me an email
.Hehehe :D
I really like this idea!
Gladiators don't need armour.
Gladiators don't need armour.
Sure now they dont, but a year and and 14 days ago they needed not only armor but, they also needed to be the super masters of armor customization and improvisation. On top of that a year and 14 days from now they will need full size invisible mech suits to protect them while they fight the dragon with singing sticks lol:D
The bad news is, I’m no where near finished with it and it will need (lots of) play testing for balance issues.
I also use alot of non core material mostly the Complete Series and PHB 2 and Eberron/FR material as well.
A) de-nerfing the fighter skill points and skill selection
B) providing more build options that allow the feasible realisation of alternate fighter types
Lets be honest here, the original 2ed gladiator was broken as heck. Once this guy showed up, there was nothing for the poor vanilla fighter to do but construct siege works (ooh what fun) and wait until he gets an army to do his bidding. Oh look, here comes Rikus with the Crimson Legion to steal the one thing the vanilla fighter did better than the glad: organized warfare.
If ever there was a job you might be forgiven for assuming rightfully belonged to someone with ACTUAL MILITARY TRAINING, it would be the commander in chief of an invading army.
I have seen a lot of talk about what a gladiator is and is not, but none of it can shift me from my firm conviction that, at its core, the gladiator is yet another type of fighter. With cool, spiky bits and oodles of flavor granted, but a fighter nonetheless. Mechanics wise, its hardly consistent to devise yet another base class when you have so many different possible gladiator types. Perused complete glad lately? A montare and Jazst have exactly one thing in common: they both fight in a ring for other peoples amusement.
IMHO, there is really no need to pigeonhole the vast gamut of different approaches to combat in Athasian stadia to a single template predicated on exotic weapon usage and armor optimisation. Should it be an option: definitely. Should it be the only one? No.
I think the Arena champion PrC as well as the other CGlad conversions are the way to go. That and perhaps a gladiator starting feat which allows one to treat some exotics as martials, gain morale bonuses when performing etc.
Chahir
Since I have participated in the original debate, my conversion evoluted to this current state with 4 "warrior" classes:
d12 Hit Dice - a redesigned Barbarian Class (wich was renamed "Savage", and redesigned solely based in Rage and Roar abilities) and a Gladiator Class.
d10 Hit Dice - a Soldier Class (inspired on the figther class, but redesigned with "mass combat feats") and a Nomad Class (inspired in the ranger class, but also redesigned without spellcasting abilities).
If you wish I can post here a brief summary of the rules mechanics of each class.
Att.,
Kelsen.
I would love to see your mechanics for the different classes :D
Im always on the lookout for that elusive class that will fit the flavour of athas.
I await eagerly!
Chahir
WARNING: Before reading, take notice that, at first look, these classes I will show you may look a little bit overpowered while compared to the PHB ones. However, I beg you for patience. These classes are balanced according to the other classes I have redesigned for my own rules system, where basically all warrior classes were made *more strong* (and more interesting too) than in the PHB, while the wizard class remained the same. (Also, I have made some tweaks in the rogue class and redesigned the bard class without spellcasting abilities, but these classes are not being discussed here).
SOLDIER
======
Justification: I designed the soldier class based on the fighter from the PHB, but trying to retrieve the original flavour from the orginal DS Campaing setting, where the *fighter* plays a specif role as a soldier or military commander (as you, Chair, have perfectly apointed above).
STATS: BAB +20, Skill Points 2 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Fort.
01 Bonus Feat, Mass Combat Feat
02 Bonus Feat
03 Mass Combat Feat
04 Bonus Feat
05 Bonus Feat
06 Mass Combat Feat
07 Bonus Feat
08 Bonus Feat
09 Mass Combat Feat
10 Bonus Feat
11 Bonus Feat
12 Mass Combat Feat
13 Bonus Feat
14 Bonus Feat
15 Mass Combat Feat
16 Bonus Feat
17 Bonus Feat
18 Mass Combat Feat
19 Bonus Feat
20 Bonus Feat
Too many feats? - Don´t get scared for the aparently excess of feats in this build. Basically I have added bonus feats in the odd levels, leaving gaps only at the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level, wich are levels where the character receives normal bonus feats. In addition, to *force* the soldier to learn some "mass combat" feats, wich are not very useful in single-combat, I have added Mass Combat Bonus Feats at the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th levels. This excess of feats was also needed to balance the soldiers with my other warrior classes.
About Mass Combat Feats: Also, the mass combat feats I have designed (and some I have borrowed from athas.org or other sources...) are intended to function with a very simple mass combat systen of rules, where each miniature in the square grid represent an unid of ten 1st level soldiers, all of the same class, same level and same equipment. Also, I have added morale rules for morale checks, but most of the mass combat is handled using the standart d20 rules in a scaled miniature system (1:10). So you will have to consider that while judging the mass combat feats presented here.
MASS COMBAT FEATS LIST:
-Shield Wall- If using a large shield and forming a row facing the same direction, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus from each adjacent ally in the row also possessing large shields and this feat, up to two (+2 AC bonus).
-Tortoise- If you and one or more adjacent allies possessing large shields and this feat engage in a tortoise formation (move action),
you gain cover (+4 AC, +2 reflex saves), but suffers -4 penalty on attack rolls and cannot run or charge.
-Phalanx- If attacking with a long spear from behind an adjacentt ally posseing a spear and this feat, you suffer -2 penalty on your attack rolls instead of -4.
-Spear Wall- If you and an adjacent ally possessing this feat are readying spears or other weapon that would inflict double damage against a charging opponent, you instead inflict triple damage on a hit.
-Cavalary Charge- If you and an adjacent mounted ally possessing a lance and this feat are charging at the same time, you inflict triple damage on a hit (instead of double damage).
-Wedge- If you and one or more adjacent allies possessing this feat and engaged in a wedge formation hit a charge attack, you can immediately initiate a bullrush to breach the enemy lines as a free action. Also, you get
a +2 bonus on the bullrush attempt for each line the wedge formation has in deep beyond the first. (Notice that the bullrush attempt here is not to push a enemy unit backward, but to open a space between two enemy units so that the wedge formation can penetrate. Also, the greater your margin of sucess in your "bullrush attempt", the more ranks the wedge formation penetrates in the defender lines. For every 5 points you beat the defender's roll, the wedge formation penetrates an additional rank in the defender's lines).
-Arrow volley- If you and one or more adjacent allies ready an action to shot the same target at the same time, you gain +2 attack bonus on the attack roll.
-Rotate lines- You and an adjacent ally posseing this feat can swap positions within 5 ft. This is a move action that does not generate an attack of opportunity against you or your ally. You may not take a 5 ft. step in addition when rotating lines.
-Supervise Construction of defenses- Double the construction speed of ditches, pits, fiels of stakes, barricades and sand, wood or stone fortifications.
-Supervise Construction of Heavy War machines- Double the construction speed of bombardment engines (ballista, catapult, trebuchet) crushing engines (rams and bores) and siege towers.
-Great General- While commanding troops on the battle field, you grant then +1 bonus on attack rolls and morale checks. Requirement: 9th level or higher.
-Strategy- When commanding troops on the battle field, you get +4 bonus on initiative checks (d10 + Int mod) to determine which army acts first (much like improved initiative feat works in ordinary combat).
SKILLS:
- Knowledge (Warcraft) - You are knowledgeable in organized warfare. Each rank in this skill enables you to command up to 20 soldiers in the battle field, by organizing and teaching the use of a comunication system based on signals (drums, banners, etc.) and messengers (including the relevant terminology). Beyond that number of troops you must assign auxiliary commadants.
MORALE CHECKS IN MASS COMBAT:
Roll 1d20 + Unit´s soldier level + General's Cha mod versus: DC 05, when the unit suffers -20% hit point loss; DC 10, when the unit suffers -50% hit point loss; and DC 15, when the unit suffers suffers -80% hit point loss.
Circunstancial Modifiers:
+2 fighting for your homeland or other strong cause
-2 fighting for a cause opposed to your beliefs or as a mercenary
+2 leader has great reputation and renown (reputation +10 or more)
-1 leader has recruited a wizard
-2 the opposite side has a powerful wizard (do not stack with the modifier above)
+1 leader used to kill or impose harsh punishment on the troops that flee from the battle field
-1 Opposite side has shown extreme acts of violence and cruelty commited against defeated foes
+1 leader has won the last battle while outnumbered or against equalsized army without losing more than 20% of his troops
-1 leader has failed in the last battle causing the death of many troops (50% or more of his army)
UPDATED FEATS: Instead of using the fighter combat feats from the Player´s Handbook II (such as weapon mastery, slashing fury and others that I consider too strong or simply unnecessary...), I redesigned the Soldier´s basic mellee combat bonus feats tree as following:
Weapon Focus. Benefit: +1 Attack bonus.
Improved Weapon Focus. Req.: 8th level. Benefit: +2 Attack bonus.
Greater Weapon Focus. Req.: 16th level. Benefit: +3 Attack bonus.
Weapon Specialization. Req.: 4th. Benefit: +2 damage bonus. (Obs.: Specialization damage bonus only applies to primary weapon)
Improved Weapon Specialization. Req.: 12th. Benefit: +4 damage bonus. (Obs.: Specialization damage bonus only applies to primary weapon)
Greater Weapon Specialization. Req.: 20th. Benefit: +6 damage bonus. (Obs.: Specialization damage bonus only applies to primary weapon)
Shield Specialization. Req.: 6th level. Benefit: +1 Shield Bonus against a single opponent.
Improved Shield Specialization. Req.: 11th level. Benefit: +2 Shield Bonus against a single opponent.
Greater Shield Specialization. Req.: 16th. Benefit: +3 Shield Bonus against a single opponent.
Ok, That's the Soldier Class. I hope you have apreciated. Later I will post the others if you still interested.
This is goooood stuff. It is sleek, has the flavour and really (IMNSHO) conveys the gist of a whole multitude of soldierly types, be it a hardened mercenary captain, crodlu cavalry irregular or Raamin slave soldier. Makes the professional fighting man/woman archetype its own thing as opposed to the vanilla alternative to the big bad glad as well as providing an in game rationale for why the SKs trained legions will take any horde of uncoordinated gladiatorial slaves to school when it comes to regimental combat. Since I dont know about your feat rules, I cannot comment, but I am seriously considering intorducing this stuff in my sunday games, with your kind permission of course.
my hat is off to you sir
Chahir
Since sunder became a viable tactic, and my players were frequently poor or low on resources those who played the class found the ability pretty useful.
I had written up several uniforms for each city state, and 1 or 2 for each trade house/villiage of importance/tribe. A player could either pick one, or we could make one up if he was working for a homebrew organization.
Anyway yours looks pretty good to me, and if I still used a class based system I would seriously consider yours over vanilla fighter.
As they say in my country: ca, je kif a mort!
Mais tu déconne! :P
Now, I would like to submit to your scrutiny the rules mechanics of the Nomad Class. As I told before, I have designed 4 warrior classes (soldier, nomad, gladiator and savage), wich were made *more strong* (and more interesting too) than in the PHB, while the wizard class remained the same.
NOMAD
=====
Justification: I designed the nomad class based on the ranger class from the PHB, but dropped spellcasting abilities and retrieved the d10 HD. The name "nomad" is inspired in the "hunting and gathering clans" described on the original DS Campaing Setting, so the nomad plays a specific role as the one who have learned to survive outside the villages and city-states, roaming the wilderness in search of food, water and prey.
STATS: Hit Dice d10, BAB +20, Skill Points 4 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Fort. None spellcasting abilties.
01 1st Favored Enemy and Terrain, Track, Endurance
02 Combat Style
03 Fast Movement
04 Animal Companion
05 2nd Favored Enemy and Terrain
06 Combat Style
07 Grace +1
08 Master Tracker
09 Damage reduction 1/-
10 3rd Favored Enemy and Terrain
11 Combat Style
12 Grace +2
13 Master Scout
14 Greater Animal Companion
15 4th Favored Enemy and Terrain
16 Combat Style
17 Grace +3
18 Master Stalker
19 Damage reduction 2/-
20 5th Favored Enemy and Terrain
FAVORED ENEMY: +1 bonus on weapon damage rolls against selected favored Enemy (damage bonus applies only to primary weapon). At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th and 20th) the nomad may select an additional favored enemy, and the bonus associated with every previously selected favored enemy increases by +1.
For example, at 20th level the nomad has +5, +4, +3, +2 and +1 bonus against his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th favored enemies.
In addiction, according to the bonus associated with each favored enemy, the nomad may gain special abilities (also associated with each favored enemy), as following:
Seriously, the two class concepts you have brought have filled two desperately needed holes in the DS mythos, for me, at least.
I used your soldier in the beginning campaign for my flipbook adventure conversion (with minor tweaking) and it worked out just beautiful. Though the PCs found them quite a handful
Plus, the nomad kind of reduces the extent to which the scout beats up the ranger and takes its stuff.
But I wish to solicit the opinions of the wider community on these classes for the sake of balanced criticism.
Well done.
Chahir
P.S
It is Chahir, not Chair. I dont like people sitting down on me :D
SAVAGE
======
Justification: The savage class is designed based on the barbarian class from the PHB, to play the role of former slaves who escaped from their masters, lost contact with civilization and live in the wilderness like near-animals, relying on their inner strength and brutality to survive. (For example, the "wild mul" from 2e acessory Terrors of the desert). I have dropped "trap sense", "uncanny dodge" and "fast movement" abilities from the barbarian of the PHB. Trap sense was an absolute nonsense for the barbarian as it is too for the savage. "Uncanny dodge" I have opted to make it rogue´s privative ability. And "fast movement", as I have shown above, moved to the nomad class.
STATS: HD 1d12, BAB +20, Skill Points 4 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Fort.
01 Rage 1/day, Power Attack
02 Unconsciousless Rage
03 Roar 1/day
04 Rage 2/day
05 Greater Roar
06 Roar 2/day
07 Damage Reduction 1/-
08 Rage 3/day
09 Roar 3/day
10 Damage Reduction 2/-
11 Greater Rage
12 Rage 4/day, Roar 4/day
13 Damage Reduction 3/-
14 Mighty Roar
15 Roar 5/day
16 Damage Reduction 4/-, Rage 5/day
17 Deathless Rage
18 Roar 6/day
19 Damage Reduction 5/-
20 Mighty Rage, Rage 6/day
Rage: +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will save, -2 AC.
Rage ability works exactly as described in the PHB, however, to add some flavour, I have included the possibility of involuntary rage. If the Savage takes damage from an attack or spell, he may involuntary enter in rage at the start of his next action, as long as he still has at least one daily usage of this ability left. To avoid entering in rage in response to a damaging attack or spell, the Savage must make a Will Save (DC 10 + points of damage taken).
Greater Rage: +6 Str, +6 Con, +4 Will save, -2 AC.
Mighty Rage: +8 Str, +8 Con, +6 Will save, -2 AC.
Unconsciousless Rage: The Savage can scorn unconsciusness while in rage. Even if reduced to 0 hit points, he is not treated as disabled, nor he is treated as dying at -1 to -9 hit points, until his rage ends. At that point, the effects of his wounds apply normally if they have not been healed.
Deathless Rage: The Savage can scorn death while in rage. Even if reduced to -10 hit points or less, he continues to fight normally until his rage ends. At that point, the effects of his wounds apply normally if they have not been healed. This ability does not prevent death from massive damage or from spell effects such as disintegrate.
Roar: Roar: As a free action, the savage can emit a powerful roar to demoralize his opponents. All opponents within 30 ft. radius of the savage must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod) or become shaken for 1 rd./Savage level. A target who succeeds the save becomes shaken for 1 round and remains immune to the intimidating effect of the roar for one day. The roar affects only opponents with equal or fewer HDs or levels than the savage. [UPDATED]
Greater Roar: Opponents with 4 Hit Dices less than the Savage that fail the Will save become Frightened instead of Shaken.
Mighty Roar: Opponents with 8 Hit Dices less than the Savage that fail the Will become Panicked instead of Frigthened or Shaken. The range increase to 40 ft. radius.
P.S.: Sorry for the mistyping ChaHir. There were also some mistakes in the nomad post that I have corrected. In the terrain abilities I intentioned to mean "while moving twice your normal speed" instead of "while running".
The best part of them is that they will become similar to what standard classes will look like in 4e.
GLADIATOR
========
Justification: It´s dificult, but I tryed to create a forth warrior class, diferent from the soldier, nomad and savage roles, inspired on the gladiator described in the original 2e Campaing Setting, but without making it "big bad glad" from 2e, as somebody else has already said above (quoting Chahir).
STATS: HD d12, BAB +20, Skill Points 4 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Fortitude.
01 Unarmed Combat, Exotic Weapon
02 Improved Grab
03 Bonus Feat
04 Wounding, Reputation +1
05 Armor Optimization +1
06 Exotic Weapon
07 Finishing Move
08 Bonus Feat
09 Reputation +2
10 Armor Optimization +2
11 Exotic Weapon
12 Improved Wounding
13 Bonus Feat
14 Reputation +3
15 Armor Optimization +3
16 Exotic Weapon
17 Improved Finishing Move
18 Bonus Feat
19 Reputation +4
20 Greater Wounding, Armor Optimization +4
UNARMED COMBAT: You are skilled in fighting even while unarmed. Armed opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when you attack them while unarmed, and your unarmed damage increases by one die type, as if you were one size category larger than you are (1d2 becomes 1d3, 1d3 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d6, etc.).
You also gain the benefits of this ability while wielding "gladiator weapons" (punching dagger, spiked gauntlet, singing sticks, wristrazor, puchik, tortoise blade or forearm axe). The damage dealt by these weapons is increased by one step (1d4 becomes 1d6) (see "gladiator weapons" description at the botton of this post).
Special: The benefits of this ability only apply when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this ability when wearing heavy armor.
EXOTIC WEAPON: You can replace Exotic weapon feats for Weapon Group Feats, if Arcana Unearthed optional rule is being used (I strongly recomend).
IMPROVED GRAB: If you hit an opponent with a melee unarmed strike or a light melee weapon, you deal normal damage and may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity (no initial touch attack is required). If you started the grapple with a light weapon, you can use it in each round to make an attack against the creature you are grappling.
Special: The benefits of this ability only apply when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this ability when wearing heavy armor.
BONUS FEAT: The gladiator may select a feat from the following list, even if he does not meet the normal prerequisites for then: Improved Bullrush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder and Improved Trip. Alternatively, the gladiator may select any Arena Feat (see bellow), provided he meet the normal prerequisites for then. The benefits of any of these feats only apply when the gladiator wears medium, light or no armor. He loses all benefits of these feats when wearing heavy armor.
FINISHING MOVE: Whenever you reduces an opponent to negative hit points, you can deliver a showy Coup
of Grace as a standart action (instead of a full-round action), and may attempt to demoralize a single opponent
within 30 ft. If you suceed in a Intimidation Check opposed by the target's modified level Check (1d20 +
target's Hit Dice + Wis Mod + bonus on saves against fear), the target becomes shaken for 1d6 rounds, + 1 per
Gladiator level. [UPDATED]
IMPROVED FINISHING MOVE: Whenever you reduces an opponent to negative hit points, you can deliver a showy Coup of Grace and attempt to demoralize an opponent as a move equivalent action, instead of a standart action.
REPUTATION: Add listed bonus to Bluff, Intimidate and Perform Checks directly related to melee combat (see also Complete Warrior p. 131, rules for Gladiatorial Matches). Also, if using Unearthed Arcana optional reputation rules, add listed bonus to your reputation score (I strongly recomend).
ARMOR OPTIMIZATION: Starting at 5th level, the gladiator learns to move and position his armor to absorb blows better than it normally would. During his action, the gladiator must designate an opponent as the target of this ability. The gladiator gains a +1 competence bonus to AC against that foe, as he moves and position his armor to turn a telling blow into a near miss. In order to receive this bonus the gladiator must be wearing light or medium armor, or using a shield (cannot be used with heavy armor). The armor optimization bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level and +4 at 20th level. If his armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 the gladiator may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. The gladiator can select new opponent(s) on any action. The gladiator loses this bonus whenever he loses his dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
WOUNDING: Whenever the gladiator deals damage with a bludgeoning, piercing or slashing weapon with wich he is proficient, the wound deals 1 point of damage in the subsequent round and each round thereafter, until a Heal Check is made (DC 15), any cure spell is applied, or 10 rounds elapse. Multiple wounds are cumulative, but the gladiator cannot use this ability with his off-hand weapon attacks. Creatures imune to critical hits are imune to this effect.
Is wounding ability broken? I would say NO. I beg you to compare the wounding ability to the soldier´s weapon specialization posted above. Compare a soldier and a gladiator fighting against each other for five rounds, assuming that each combatant always hit a single blow per round, as follows:
1st round: Soldier´s weapon specialization deal 2 hp damage. Gladiator´s wounding deals nothing.
2nd round: Soldier´s weapon specialization deals 2 hp damage (total -4 hp dmg). Gladiator´s wounding deals 1 hp damage (i.e., from the hit scored in the 1st round) (total -1 hp dmg).
3rd round: Soldier´s weapon specialization deals 2 hp damage (total -6 hp dmg). Gladiator´s wounding deals 2 hp damage (i.e., from the hits scored in the 1st and 2nd rounds) (total -3 hp dmg).
4th round: Soldier´s weapon specialization deals 2 hp damage (total -8 hp dmg). Gladiator´s wounding deals 3 hp damage (i.e., from the hits scored in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds) (total -6 hp dmg).
5th round: Soldier´s weapon specialization deals 2 hp damage (total -10 hp). Gladiator´s wounding deals 4 hp damage (i.e., from the hits scored in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounds) (total -10 hp dmg).
Conclusion: The soldier has an advantage from the 1st to the 4th rounds of combat. However, in the long run, from the 6th round thereafter, the gladiator gets the advantage. The soldier kills faster, but the gladiator deals more damage in the long run. The choice is yours.
Improved wounding: wounds deals 2 points of damage (instead of 1) in the subsequent round and each round thereafter.
Greater wounding: wounds deals 3 points of damage (instead of 2) in the subsequent round and each round thereafter.
Is wounding ability progression broken? No. Since Soldiers receive a progression on weapon specialization feats (up to +6 dmg in the 20th level), it is fair (and not broken as I have shown in the example above) that gladiator´s wounding ability receives equivalent progression too.
ARENA FEATS:
Arena Performance [Arena Feat]
Prerequisite: BAB +1, 4+ ranks in Perform (blood sport).
You can make a Perform (Blood Sport) check as a move action (instead of a standart action) to use Arena Feats (see bellow) or try to impress the crowd at a gladiator match, and improve its attitude toward you (see Complete Warrior p. 131, rules for Gladiatorial Matches).
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
Eternal Glory [Arena Feat]
Prerequisites: Reputation +1 (gladiator's class feature), 8+ ranks in Perform (blood sport).
The cheers of the crowd can encourage you to push yourself beyond your limits.
Benefit: At a gladiator match, if you have less than 1/2 of your total hp, you can make a Perform (blood sport) check against DC 20. If you succeed, you gain extra temporary hit points equal to your Constitution score or one-quarter of your full hit point total (rounded down), wichever is greater. This effect lasts until the end of the combat plus a number of rounds equal to 3 + his constitution modifier. You can use this Feat only once per day and if the crowd's attitude toward you is helpfull.
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
Roar of the Crowd [Arena Feat]
Prerequisites: Reputation +2 (gladiator's class feature), 12+ ranks in Perform (blood sport).
You make the crowd to cheer more and more loudly for each successful blow you strike.
Benefit: At a gladiator match, if the crowd's attitutde toward you is already helpful and you succeed in a Perform (blood sport) check against DC 20, you can start a run of attacks that goes along with increasing support of the crowd. You gain a +1 circunstance bonus on your damage rolls, and for each successful blow you strike aggainst your opponents, this bonus increases by 1 point. If you miss, the bonus resets to +1. If the crowd's attitude toward you becomes worse than helpful, you must make a Perform Check to initiate this ability again.
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
The Favorite [Arena Feat]
Prerequisites: Reputation +3 (gladiator's class feature), 12+ ranks in Perform (blood sport).
Your reputation as a gladiator has reached the most obscur places on Athas. And even if they don’t know your name,
you look like a professionnal. Your very presence in the arena has an impact on the crowd.
Benefit: At a gladiator match, the crowd's attitude toward you always starts one step better than normal (e.g., if the crowd's attitude toward you would start as indiferent, it starts as friendly instead).
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
OTHER FEATS OF INTEREST:
Clever Wrestling.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, Improved Grapple.
Benefit: You gain a circunstance bonus to escape a grapple or pin, according to your opponent's size: Large +2, Huge +4, Gargantuan +6, colossal +8.
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
Choke Hold.
Prerequisistes: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Move (gladiator's class feature).
Benefit: When grappling, if you pin an opponent for 3 consecutive rounds, that opponent must succeed in a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + Str Mod) or fall unconscious for 1d3 rounds. Creatures two sizes larger than you or immune to critical hits are immune to the effects of this feat.
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
Breakspine Hold.
Prerequisistes: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Choke Hold, Improved Finishing Move (gladiator's class feature).
Benefit: When grappling, if you pin an opponent for 3 consecutive rounds, that opponent must succeed in a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 your level + Str Mod) or die. Creatures two sizes larger than you or immune to critical hits are immune to the effects of this feat.
Special: The benefits of this feat apply only when you wear medium, light or no armor. You cannot use this feat when wearing heavy armor.
GLADIATOR WEAPONS*
I definitely like all three of the classes you have presented here and am seriously considering using them in my campaign (I already built a slaving pary with soldiers and a nomad guide :D )!
I would just like to know how these babies work out in terms of power in comparison with vanilla classes (Ftr/Rgr) and how well they mesh in with the other support classes and casters.
Also, since you are an accomplished mechanics tinkerer, do you have something thought up for the identity conflicted Athasian bard. Im always having ideas about building a class based on the Arcana Evolved Akashic to model one of these shady jacks/jills of all trades.
P.S
I would be very much interested in the mass combat rules. Just had a player see soldier and decide to go all the way with it.
Thanks
Chahir
About bards and rogues I have the following to present you. I hope that you like.
BARD
====
Justification: The PHB bard is the jack of all trades, however, the athasian bard (as we know him from 2e) is, above all, a master of poisons. He is a mixture of rogue, assassin and entertainer. Both rogues and bards will be employed by nobles and merchant houses for a variety of missions, especially assassination. Bards will rely on poisons and social skills (their "social expertise"), while rogues willl rely on sneak attacks (or death attack special ability) and their superb trainning (special abilities such as slipery mind, improved evasion, etc.).
In this build, I have replaced bard´s spellscasting abilities (since athas is a low magic world) for a very customizable craft poison mechanics (borrowed from d20 modern). I also have replaced the bardic music abilities from the PHB (since most of then produce magic effects that doesn´t combine with DS) for non-magic ones, such as "Inspire" and "Provoke" (also based on the Perform skill) and "social expertise".
STATS: HD d6, BAB +15, Skill Points 6 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Ref and Will. No spellcasting abilities.
01 Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance, Poison making, Poison Use
02 Inspire +1
03 Poison Resistance +1
04 Special Ability
05 Luck 1/day
06 Poison Resistance +2
07 Special Ability
08 Inspire +2
09 Poison Resistance +3
10 Special Ability
11 Luck 2/day
12 Poison Resistance +4
13 Special Ability
14 Inspire +3
15 Poison Resistance +5
16 Special Ability
17 Luck 3/day
18 Poison Resistance +6
19 Special Ability
20 Inspire +4
BARDIC PERFORMANCE: The bard can use the Perform Skill to improve audience's attitude toward him.
Treat this as a Diplomacy check made to influence NPC attitudes, but you replace the Diplomacy
check for a Perform check and you can affect multiple targets with this ability. All targets must
be within 30 ft. of the bard, be able to see and hear him clearly, and willing to pay attention
to his actions. This ability requires at least 1 minute of performance to take effect, and cannot
affect hostile NPCs. [UPDATED]
INSPIRE: The bard's play can inspire confidence in his allies. All allies within 30 ft. gain +1 bonus on attack
rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks, as long as they hear the bard play and for 5 rounds thereafter. The
bonus rises to +2 at 8th level, +3 at 14th and +4 at the 20th.
POISON MAKING: A bard (and only bards) can use the Craft (poison making) Skill to create poison when the task has a DC higher than 20. To create a poison, follow the steps described here:
First, choose the poison's type (contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury) to find the Craft (poison making) check base DC:
This class IMHO seems to smooth ver a lot of the incompatibilities between the D&D bard class and its athasian equivalent. Most importantly, I think it introduces mechanics that will result in the bard being played in a more athasian (if that is the correct term) way. Nice one.
Chahir
Thanks for your always generous positive comments.
As you liked the bard, I strongly recommend you to use the rogue class presented bellow. It´s very similar to the PHB version and almost equal in power, but much more customizable (as all the classes I have showed above).
I have dropped the original trap sense progression presented in PHB, since it makes no sense that all the rogues must be "trap experts". Along their careers, some rogues may opt to specialize in traps (by taking the "trap sense" special ability, see description bellow), while others may not.
For the same reason, I have added the death attack to the rogue´s hall of special abilities. The rogues, along their careers, have the option to become assassins by taking the Death Attack special ability (and its prerequisistes), and most will, since Athas is a world of assassination and intrigue.
Finally, you will see also that the old fixed abilities, such as uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and evasion, were also transformed in special abilities, wich a rogue may select (or not) along the development of his career.
I hope that you like.
Kelsen.
P.S.: If any other people here have comments (good or bad) about the classes just showed above, please feel free to post it. Thanks in advance.
ROGUE
=====
STATS: HD d6, BAB +15, Skill Points 8 + Int Mod/level, Good Saves: Reflexes.
01 Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
02 Special Ability
03 Sneak Attack +2d6
04 Special Ability
05 Sneak Attack +3d6
06 Special Ability
07 Sneak Attack +4d6
08 Special Ability
09 Sneak Attack +5d6
10 Special Ability
11 Sneak Attack +6d6
12 Special Ability
13 Sneak Attack +7d6
14 Special Ability
15 Sneak Attack +8d6
16 Special Ability
17 Sneak Attack +9d6
18 Special Ability
19 Sneak Attack +10d6
20 Special Ability
TRAPFINDING: A rogue (and only a rogue) can make search and disable device checks to locate and disarm traps with DC 20 or higher.
SPECIAL ABILITIES: At each even level, the bard can choose one special ability from the following list:
-Bonus Feat.
-Uncanny Dodge - Benefit: As in PHB.
-Improved Uncanny Dodge - Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Evasion - Benefit: As in PHB.
-Improved Evasion - Prerequisites: Base Ref Save +6 and Evasion. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Defensive Roll - Prerequisites: Improved Uncanny Dodge. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Slippery Mind - Prerequisites: Base Will Save +3. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Opportunist - Prerequisites: BAB +7 or higher. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Skill Mastery - Prerequisites: 8+ ranks with each selected skills. Benefit: As in PHB.
-Trap Sense - Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge and 6+ ranks in the Search Skill. Benefit: While moving up to one-half
your normal speed, you can intuitively (without an active effort) detect the presence of any traps within 10 ft.,
if you succeed in a search check with a -5 penalty.
-Improved Trap Sense - Prerequisites: Trap sense. Benefit: Gain +4 Bonus on Armor Class and Reflex saving throws against traps.
-Swif and Silent - Benefit: Can use Hide and Move Silent Skills while moving at your normal speed without penalty
(normal: -5). In addiction, you can use Hide and Move Silent Skills while moving twice your normal speed with -10
penalty (normal: -20).
-Hide in plain sight - Prerequisites: Swift and Silent. Benefit: You can use the Hide Skill even while being observed,
as long as there is some sort of cover or concealment within 1 ft./per rank you have in the Hide Skill (normal: must
suceed in a Bluff check to create a diversion to hide, then make a Hide Check with -10 penalty);
-Weakening Strike - Prerequisites: Weakening Strike, Sneak Attack +1d6.
Benefit: If you damage your opponent with a sneak attack, you also deal 1 point of Strength damage upon him.
-Crippling Strike - Prerequisites: Weakening Strike, Sneak Attack +2d6.
Benefit: If you damage your opponent with a sneak attack, you also deal 2 points of Strength damage upon him.
-Death Strike - Prerequisites: Senak Attack +3d6, Weakening Strike.
Benefit: If the rogue studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon or ranged
weapon (within 30 ft. range) that successfully deals damage, he may choose to either kill or paralize the target
(rogue's choice). The victim must suceed in a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 rogue's level + Int Mod) or die (if the killing
effect was chosen) or become paralyzed for 1d6 rds. + 1 rd./rogue's level (if the paralizing effect was chosen). If
the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. In the 3 rounds of study preceding the
death attack, if the victim detects the rogue's presence or recognizes him as an enemy (if the rogue is disguised,
for example), the death strike automatically fails.
-Canny Merchant - Prerequisites: Social Expertise.
Gain three skill tricks, as following:
Bargain - You can use the Diplomacy skill to buy or sell goods with a discount or increase in its listed price.
Treat this as a Diplomacy check made to influence NPCs attitudes. If the NPC's reaction toward you becomes friendly
you can purchase his goods with a 10% discount, or sell your goods to him with a 10% increase in price. If NPC
attitude toward you becomes helpful, you can buy with a 20% discount or sell with 20% increase in price. Once you
use this skill trick, you cannot use this skill trick against the same target again for 24 hours.
Gold's scent - You can use your Appraise skill to instinctively identify the most valuable item in a inventary as
a move-equivalent action. The DC for this accomplishment is DC 10 + the number of items in the selection. If you can
not see the items that you are choosing from (e.g. you are trying to pickpocket someone), then a full-round action
is required, and the DC rises to 15 + the number of items.
Intuitive comunication - When you are faced with a creature whose language you do not understand, you can attempt to comunicate with it by making a successful Sense Motive check. This check requires that you spend at least 1 minute listening to the creature and watching its gestures and demeanor. The check base DC is 20. If the creature is not the same type as you, the DC is 30. With a successful check, you learn the basic gist of the creature's speech. However, this ability gives you no special talent to speak the creatures tongue.
-Patron - Prerequisites: 10th level. [NEW]
You attain a patron. A patron is a powerful individual or organization (such as an important templar, a noble family, a merchant house, or a criminal organization) who will do favors and protect you under his name. In return, you are expected to perform tasks for your patron, such as theft, spying, or even assassination. The following list provides sample of favors that may be provided by a Patron:
- Provide money or gear (with price up to 5% of the NPC wealth value listed for your charater level - see DMG p. 127-, at DM's discretion);
- Provide black market goods, such as poison or spell components. (with price up to 5% NPC wealth value listed for your charater level - see DMG p. 127-, at DM's discretion);
- Provide service of a hired mercenary (this can be a NPC of your desired race and class at DM's discretion, and
follows the rules for Cohorts given in the DMG p. 104);
- Provide service of mercenary troops (consult the Leadership feat to find the maximum number of troops that
a patron can provide, at DM's discretion. All troops are of the NPC warrior class);
- Provide acess to spellcasting services (with price up to 5% NPC wealth value listed for your charater level - see DMG p. 127-, at DM's discretion);
- Provide access to forged materials (treat as service of an NPC with a number of ranks in Forgery skill equal to your charater level, at DM's discretion);
- Provide access to decipher script (treat as service of an NPC with a number of ranks in Decipher Script skill equal to your charater level, at DM's discretion);
- Provide access to the services of other expert (treat as service of an NPC with a number of ranks in the appropriated skill equal to your charater level, at DM's discretion);
- Provide access to restricted areas (Noble House, Merchant Headquarters, Templar bureau, Sorcerer King's
Palace, Veilled Alliance undergrounds, etc; at DM's discretion);
- Provide access to secret information (treat as a bardic knowledge check made by a bard of character level equal to yours, at DM's discretion);
- Provide a meeting with an important NPC (templar, noble, gladiatorial slave, chieftain etc; at DM's discretion).
- Provide a safe place to stay hidden (DM's discretion);
- Avoid templar inspection (DM's discretion);
- Retrieve gear or goods seized by templar (DM's discretion);
- Be released from an arrest (DM's discretion);
- Be absolved from an accusation of crime (DM's discretion);
- Receive pardom from a passed judgement.
At DM's discretion, some options above may be limited while others may added according to the situation and the kind of patron you have attained. The DM has final say on the extent of favors that may be extracted from a patron at a given time. The use of your patron's favors is not restricted to a listed amount of times per day or week, but in return for one or more favors, you will have to perform a specific task for your patron (such as arson, theft, assassitation, etc.). The difficult of the assigned task varies according to the frequency and extent of the favors previously received. If you refuse to perform the assigned task, you may be harassed by your patron or be targeted for assassination, because of your disloyalty. Also, once you have a patron, the only way to leave his service is through death, since you already know too many of his secrets and will not be allowed to "resign" in any conventional way.
Havent been on the boards for a while, but just finished over your rendition of the rogue.
Sweet! I think now I have a complete set of athasian character classes/archetypes to introduce into my campaign (as I mentioned previously I used the soldier to represent caravan guards and they rocked the casbah! My PCs will NEVER underestimate the humble man-at-arms again :D ).
Now Ive built a team of halfling trackers with the nomad class (I still like to call it ranger, though. Nomad reminds me of a psion specialised in psychoportation)
and a couple of Tarek savage/gladiators as bodyguards.
It works like a dream, at least in my campaign. And best of all, it makes my players actually WANT to play pure martial classes.
This basically solves my problems with Athasian combat classes.
Still leaves the Defiling system and Psionic Combat as two things I just cannot seem to get the way I like.
But your classes have gone a looong way.
Thanks, Kelsen :D
Your gentle words makes me keep posting...
Now Ive built a team of halfling trackers with the nomad class (I still like to call it ranger, though. Nomad reminds me of a psion specialised in psychoportation)
and a couple of Tarek savage/gladiators as bodyguards.
It works like a dream, at least in my campaign. And best of all, it makes my players actually WANT to play pure martial classes.
Yeah, that´s the idea: make the combat classes more attractive, flavourful, and fun to play (even as NPCs). Thanks for your excellent feedback!
This basically solves my problems with Athasian combat classes.
Still leaves the Defiling system and Psionic Combat as two things I just cannot seem to get the way I like.
There is no easy answer for the defiler system. I have built one wich I consider is the middle term between athas.org´s conversion and David Noonan´s taint system.
I mean, by using the system I will present here, you make wizards more powerfull than in athas.org conversion, but less powerfull than in David Noonan´s taint system. It´s also a very easy system, as you will see bellow.
DEFILERS AND PRESERVERS:
Both defilers and preservers are members of the wizard class.
DEFILERS:
Defilers are wizards that always defile the land when they cast spells. Defilers cannot cast spells without defiling the land around then.
In the other hand, when casting spells, defilers receive spellcasting bonuses wich they apply
to the spell being cast, but also take penalties related to their taint, according to table bellow:
I like the defiler traits and aversions a lot, and am trying to think up more so I can make some sort of table to generate random aversions and traits.
I have the feeling that the defiling radius in barren terrain might be too big, but cant be sure.
I like the idea of the will save with growing DC, except that I wqould probably start it off at 10 (hey, Athas is a harsh place: you take your chances when you defiler).
I am also concerned about the fact that at higher levels the defiler becomes overpowered in comparison to a preserver of the same level. While I can see the rationale in this, it is hard to balance mechanics wise.
Lastly, let me say that I am amazed that you do not use psionics in your campaign. Isnt Dark Sun the quintessential psionic world?
I would be very interested in hearing how do you portray mind-benders, cornacs, sell minds and all the other Athasian archetypes that require psionic ability.
Thanks again
I like the defiler traits and aversions a lot, and I am trying to think up more so I can make some sort of table to generate random aversions and traits.
The traits and aversions are based on xlorepdarkhelm ideas. Commenting my last post about defiler mechanics, he suggested these descriptions instead of flat Charisma penalties. I borrowed his idea and designed the traits and aversions progression to add more flavour to my defiler mechanics. The Cha penalty was also based in an old mechanic presented in the revised campaing setting.
I have the feeling that the defiling radius in barren terrain might be too big, but cant be sure.
The defiler radius is ok. See it matches with the radius presented by David Noonan´s in Dragon #315. Also, I have edited the post above: just added defiler radius for abundant and lush terrain types.
I like the idea of the will save with growing DC, except that I wqould probably start it off at 10 (hey, Athas is a harsh place: you take your chances when you defiler).
When I first designed this system, I also started using a base DC 10. Recently, I have decided to try a base DC 5 to make the defiler temptation even more dangerous to preservers: a low starting DC makes preservers believe that they can use defiling magic with a low risk of crossing the road. The preserver grows more and more acostumated to defile. Suddenly, the preserver fails his saving throw and becomes a defiler. That was my purpose: to tempt preservers even more. But I will take your suggestion and reset the base DC back to 10.
I am also concerned about the fact that at higher levels the defiler becomes overpowered in comparison to a preserver of the same level. While I can see the rationale in this, it is hard to balance mechanics wise.
First, consider that the caster level bonus only increases effective caster level for purposes of level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks. This improvement in caster level does not grant a defiler any other benefits (such as higher spell level access or more spells per day). Second, consider that the Red Wizard PRC presented in the DMG has a similar ability that grants him up to +5 caster level bonus (but to a single spell school). Even so, I admit that my system makes defiler overpowered in comparison to a preserver of the same level.
Maybe I could limit the spell power bonus to +4 or drop the bonus to Spell Save DC (or even limit the first and drop the second).
Lastly, let me say that I am amazed that you do not use psionics in your campaign. Isnt Dark Sun the quintessential psionic world?
I would be very interested in hearing how do you portray mind-benders, cornacs, sell minds and all the other Athasian archetypes that require psionic ability.
I agree, DS is the quintessential psionic world (or at least it was, in my case). However, IMHO, WotC didn´t make a good job converting psionics to 3e. If you use the psion class as described in the EPHB (specially with its "energy powers"), there is no reason to *fear* a wizard. Instead of the old "way of the unseen" (as psionics were recognized in 2e), WotC gave to the 3.5 psion fireballs and lightining bolts (just exchanged the power names) wich made this class even more powerful than wizards in matter of spell artillery. So why to fear the wizards if they do not own anything special that belong to their class exclusively?
And why the SK´s would outlaw only wizards, if the psion is also very dangerous (if not more)? Even if you explain that matter (e.g. SK´s outlaw wizards because defiler spells ruin their fields and they want to prevent the surge of other advanced beings and, thus, avoid competition), remain the problem that the psion class, as it is, will always step on the wizards toes.
The most powerful and feared force in a DS campaing must be MAGIC. Psionics can exist but should be different. Considering that, I had two choices: build a new psionics system or drop the 3.5e psionics from my campaing. I have opted for the second.
SK´s and other advanced beings do not need psionics at all (just use EPIC classes with the dragon/avangion metamorphosis spells). Templars neither. Nobles families still hold their status of land owners, but will also occupy proiminent positions as military generals trainning and commanding armies on the battle field (so most of the nobles will belong to the SOLDIER class and have personal armies that support the SKs in times of war, some nobles may also belong to the templar class, and only rare nobles will become defilers or preservers).
Converting old DS adventures or athas.org´s excelent materials is not a difficult task at all. I just analyse what is the adventure´s plot and replace psionics for other spellcasting classes (normally clerics or wizards). Also, since the 3.5e psionics system is very similar to the spells system, I can easly convert most of the psionic monsters by exchanging innate powers for innate spells.
Edit: Post moved to the thread Taint & Addiction Defiling System - Improving Dragon Magazine #315 rules.
Edit: I like what I see so far on your gladiator, I intend to play test sometime in the next few months, if my next campaign ever takes off
Choke Hold, Breakspine Hold, and Clever Wrestling should be included in the list of gladiator bonus feats. However, the gladiator must meet the prerequisites to get then.
Arena Feats are a special type of feat that can only be use at a "gladiator match". I have opted to leave the concept of "gladiator match" open for the DM´s discretion (instead of setting specific requisites, such as minimum number of spectators, wich sounds very artificial to me), since situations vary. For instance, a major brawl at a wineshop with many participants and some spectators may not fit in the concept of "gladiator match". In the other hand, a pit fight at a nobleman´s house for his few selected guests could be considered a true gladiator match (despite of the few number of spectators).
Thanks for the positive comments. Keep the feedback comming.
Positive comments and constructive criticism about my other combat classes are also welcome.
Kelsen.
Nomad:
-Replaced the favored enemy-related ability "Stunning Strike" for "Weakening Strike".
-Summaryzed the favored terrain-related ability names.
-Included a new section called "updated skills", presenting advanced rules and new uses for the Survival Skill in Dark Sun.
Bard:
-Updated the Craft [poisonmaking] Skill rules. The base DC for Inhaled poison has been increased. Also, added a description of the poison delivering methods.
-Added a new special ability: "Patron".
Rogue:
-Added a new special ability: "Patron".
-Added a new special ability: "Weakening Strike". That ability works as a lesser version of crippling strike.