To start the conversation, here's a thought:
Could Lubar of Family Lubar (in the Pentad) have been a yuan-ti, one of those that look humanoid?
The head of a noble family (not necessarily containing children sired by that guy/lady) might be such a yuan-ti, who won the title the way any other human would get such a title. He got the position from being better than others.
It'd be great if Lubar had been such a guy, either made into a yuan-ti as part of a Family Lubar deal made to ensure their success, or already one from the start (maybe the Lubars have a yuan-ti streak in their family, or are all yuan-ti). Perhaps his family's longtime riches and importance in Urik were due to that.
In the main rule books of the 2ndE D&D version state that there is more then the usual variety to the human stock for Athasian humans. And since Pureblood Yuan-Ti, according to the the 2ndE D&D rules, can pass for human 80% of the time. I made it that Pureblood Yuan-Ti can walk among human populations and not draw much attention to themselves.
Most of my Dark Sun Campaign took place almost completely in Tyr. There were a series of abductions that the town watch were unable to figure out, so they hired the PCs to investigate. They ended up locating Purebloods that worked for the Town Guard and were in the lowest levels of the Templarate. The Investigation ended up with a confrontation in a temple underneath a building in the merchants district.
I always treated the Yuan-Ti in a drow-like manner in my games.
Anyone treated yuan-ti as anything else than what the common vision (read cliché) for them is, i.e. bible-tumping kidnaper cultists? :P
I never went beyond the cliché myself, but that Lubar idea is quite the mind-opener...
The Yuan Ti are a new race mutated in the final days of the rebirth (or Sarruhk were one of the last new races and they created the Yuan-Ti). Theres few places left on Athas where Yuan-Ti form any signifigant numbers skulking in the shadows in under Tyr. I would add a few scatter settlements in the far south of the Forest Ridge, at the bottm of Troll Grave chasm and in the forests west of New Kurn. They could also be hidden in the swamp as the base of the Jagged Cliffs. I imagnined them to be powerful Psionists and preservers despite their evil alignment- they prefer jungle type terrain for example.
Back in the Green Age, there was a medusa-like race of half snakes. They were able to breed with either snakes or human, and after the race was destroyed, only the half-breeds that were basically human or snake were left. The race was killed into extinction and the Yuan-ti are the half-breeds that are trying to breed themselves back into their original form.
Which is why the Yuan-Ti behaves like a cult and abduct people who are part of the lineage descending from the original green age survivors. Maybe there is some sort of Bene Geseret-like breeding program going on as well.
Anyone treated yuan-ti as anything else than what the common vision (read cliché) for them is, i.e. bible-tumping kidnaper cultists? :P
My (Athasian) version of Yuan-ti have them as a nation of interconnected city-states across the Silt Sea from the tablelands. Most of the "population" consists of human(oid) slaves under the control of the yuan-ti, who are primarily psions, psychic warriors and defilers (those are the favored classes, depending on their "type"). In most ways their society mimicks that of the Tyr Valley city-states, except that it's taken to the (chaotic) extreme. There's obviously more to it than that, but you can fill in the blanks in regards to how the whole thing works.
I don't see why the same would not apply to other rebirth races, even extinct races, that had the ability to breed with humans.
The term "trueblood" does fit nicely with the idea of someone who had human parents but somehow recombined some ancestral genes to "breed true" to her non-human ancestors.
We know of one tauric race on Athas, the wemics. Some sources speak of another one, "centaurs." With no source that speaks of horses, one wonders what an Athasian "centaur" looked like. Could the tauric races breed with humans? Well, the Yuan-Ti are arguably at least sometimes tauric, and they interbreed with humans, right? Maybe the Yuan-Ti are the recombined form of something that looked like the serpentine form of Lamia or something like that. Troy Denning himself said that there were probably other champions and races not mentioned in any of the sources so far.
With the Eloy, I started playing with the idea of the descendants of half-elves. Since humans and elves interbreed, the first generation is a half-elf, but if you have the descendants interbreeding for generations, it's possible that two people that looked human but had some elven ancestry on both sides, could end up producing something that looked half-elven.
I don't see why the same would not apply to other rebirth races, even extinct races, that had the ability to breed with humans.
The term "trueblood" does fit nicely with the idea of someone who had human parents but somehow recombined some ancestral genes to "breed true" to her non-human ancestors.
We know of one tauric race on Athas, the wemics. Some sources speak of another one, "centaurs." With no source that speaks of horses, one wonders what an Athasian "centaur" looked like. Could the tauric races breed with humans? Well, the Yuan-Ti are arguably at least sometimes tauric, and they interbreed with humans, right? Maybe the Yuan-Ti are the recombined form of something that looked like the serpentine form of Lamia or something like that. Troy Denning himself said that there were probably other champions and races not mentioned in any of the sources so far.
I was toying with the idea that centaurs on athas would be half insect, like a kank or a spider. although I wanted to stay away from any drider conotations. Half snake centaurs might be better. Of course, I have always loved the idea of Half Rhinos. Or Half Kobald half dingo: Kodingobald!!!
Could the tauric races breed with humans? Well, the Yuan-Ti are arguably at least sometimes tauric, and they interbreed with humans, right? Maybe the Yuan-Ti are the recombined form of something that looked like the serpentine form of Lamia or something like that. Troy Denning himself said that there were probably other champions and races not mentioned in any of the sources so far.
I like that idea. But since Yuan-Ti can have all kinds of snake characteristics on their humanoid forms, maybe the Yuan-Ti are straying from the course and have bred things into their line that have NOTHING to do with their progenitor rebirth race.
I wonder what the Original race was like? Hmmmm....
For stats and stuff - check the link in my sig!
Someone a while back (can't recall who exactly or the thread it came out of) had a theory that people became Yuan-ti due to a disease like aliment shortly after the Rebirth (maybe caused by a flaw in the Rhulisti Rebirthing process) . I was always kind of fond of that idea. Sort of like Athas' version of lycanthropy. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here.
Almost like the Pukebrazi (sp) eh?
Almost like the Pukebrazi (sp) eh?
More-or-less, but instead of becoming insectile (is that a word?) they became serpentine
See - I was never a fan of introducing the orginal yuan-ti into a DS campaign
Albeit I do not like your version, I too find the MM yuan-ti to be innapropriate as is for Athas.
D&D's elves and dwarves too are innapropriate, and look what a good job they did with them! Maybe one day some talented person will come along and sell us all to the athasian yuan-ti...
/dreaming
Athasian elves are still elvish, and .... you get the point. Yuan-ti as tauric with something else than snakes...is it still yuan-ti?
Athasian elves aren't recombined. The Eloy are an example of recombined elves, although really they run the gamut from mostly human to mostly elven.
My Yuan-Ti are reinterpreted, kind of like Denning's halflings. I've put a new spin on the whole Yuan-Ti breeding and cult thing. I guess you could call them genetic fundamentalists. :D I'll be suprised if that phrased doesn't appeal to you at some level, Penn.
Athasian elves have no wings, for example, or a tail. In that regard they aren't that much different from D&D elves. Yuan-ti who aren't somehow half-snake people don't seem yuan-ti to me.
I'm not much arguing here; fans will decide what they like.
Athasian elves have no wings, for example, or a tail. In that regard they aren't that much different from D&D elves. Yuan-ti who aren't somehow half-snake people don't seem yuan-ti to me.
Oh, they are half-snake people. Or, I should say, some variation between 1/8 to 7/8 snake people. Just as described in the XPH. All that I've changed is the story behind them, and there I've only added a few key details that fit them into Athas' history. They are actually more like the XPH guys mechanically than DS elves are like regular D&D elves.
Then can you elaborate a bit more on your version?
Sure. I toss the alternate form ability, but otherwise keep the mechanics recommended in the XPH.
Purebloods appear human at first glance, with subtle snakelike features, as described in the MM. The difference is that many purebloods aren't even aware that they are Yuan-Ti, and that several others, while aware, want nothing to do with the horrid cults; they'd prefer to think of themselves as human.
(For a good story base involving cult inbreeding to create a psionic race, see the short story "eye for eye" by Orson Scott Card, who you've probably heard of as a sci-fi fan, Penn. Following OSC, you might posit a smaller, opposed YT cult).
Halfbloods and abominations on the other hand are always descended from YT on both sides, and therefore almost always part of the YT cult.
Oh, they are half-snake people. Or, I should say, some variation between 1/8 to 7/8 snake people. Just as described in the XPH. All that I've changed is the story behind them, and there I've only added a few key details that fit them into Athas' history. They are actually more like the XPH guys mechanically than DS elves are like regular D&D elves.
Then why call then Centaurs?
There's one guy that's got the lower body of an Inix and the upper body of a human who believes himself to be the last of the "centaurs." Then there are some Yuan Ti who believe that they are the descendants of the "centaurs." Problem is that centaurs died early in the Cleansing Wars and no one seems to know what they [the centaurs] looked like.
Alexis, is there the possibility that you imagine Brax' Yuan-ti with four legs because of the term "tauric"? I do not seem to get your problem that his version is something non-snake like.
He mentionned tauric with inix...
Maybe he meant to use inix as a example of, say, skin texture, but that's not what I read at the time. I haven't reread since though.
EDIT: I've reread. Extinct tauric race with inix characteristics, race from whihc yuan-ti are descneded. Still, this is weird.
Ahh, the good ol' days. Now I'd need to inject maybe a k in good books to start reading again. I got myself my first credit card a few weeks ago, so that's a start in the right direction!
/brainwashed by credit card companies
He mentionned tauric with inix...
Maybe he meant to use inix as a example of, say, skin texture, but that's not what I read at the time. I haven't reread since though.
EDIT: I've reread. Extinct tauric race with inix characteristics, race from whihc yuan-ti are descneded. Still, this is weird.
Where did I say that the Inix guy was related to the yuan-ti?
I said that there are multiple creatures that believe themselves descended from the centaur. It's obviously unlikely that all of them are correct.
Honestly, I thought that you and Penn would be among the first to grok the idea that Athasian history is a fuzzy thing. That different people have different spins and interpretations. That two massive multigenerational wars, followed by a dragon's frenzy, followed by millenia of authoritarian rule, have made the hard task of history even more sketchy and impossible.
One of the big themes of Lost Cities is the cost of the Cleansing Wars: lost Cities, lost ideas, lost languages, lost peoples, lost stories. In Kurn, the Great Library is trying to piece together some of the fragments. There's no end to the mysteries and contradictions.
For the third time, I have not called Centaurs anything, except for an unknown word, a race whose identity is in question.
Then add a third completely contradictory Centaur reference to the mix that doesn't involve Lizards and I think the idea that people remember a race named Centaurs but truly have no idea what they were should be more clear.
What about having a Yuan-Ti temple in the mountains underneath a large carving of a the front half of a humanoid standing in silhouette holding a snake in his hands. Inside the temple the Yuan-Ti have artifacts that were recovered in the valley below indicating that most of this statue is now rubble. The true name of the statue has been lost to time, but the common name for the carving is Centaur's Triumph.
Or something along those lines....
Then add a third completely contradictory Centaur reference to the mix that doesn't involve Lizards and I think the idea that people remember a race named Centaurs but truly have no idea what they were should be more clear.
What about having a Yuan-Ti temple in the mountains underneath a large carving of a the front half of a humanoid standing in silhouette holding a snake in his hands. Inside the temple the Yuan-Ti have artifacts that were recovered in the valley below indicating that most of this statue is now rubble. The true name of the statue has been lost to time, but the common name for the carving is Centaur's Triumph.
Or something along those lines....
That's not contradictory. That's ambiguous. Would love to see it. Put it in your supp, if you're serious about doing this Green Age history thing.
Readers know what kobolds are too.
Let me rephrase that: Centaurs are half-horses, and there are no horses on Athas, so the very choice of the word centaur is suspect.
Wemics were an early TSR attempt at creating a tauric race unrelated to horses, so its just sad that Abbey did not go with wemics....
Unless...you imagine that the Centaur Crusher was an alternate name (she had several of them, like Sprite Claw instead of Pixie Blight) meant to describe the Wemic Annihilator.
Mmmm....I like this last proposal. Thoughts?
Let me rephrase that: Centaurs are half-horses, and there are no horses on Athas, so the very choice of the word centaur is suspect.
Wemics were an early TSR attempt at creating a tauric race unrelated to horses, so its just sad that Abbey did not go with wemics....
Unless...you imagine that the Centaur Crusher was an alternate name (she had several of them, like Sprite Claw instead of Pixie Blight) meant to describe the Wemic Annihilator.
Mmmm....I like this last proposal. Thoughts?
I've thought of that possibility. Last time that I was in Kurn, I dropped by the Great Library and asked Lapis of the Scholar's clave what he thought of that. He thinks it's more likely that the word "centaur" may have included wemics and other creatures as well, that it might have been synonymous with the later word "tauric." Lapis argues that there are many wemic spirits in the areas north of the Trembling Plains, and that Kurnan history shows that the elves in Kurn made heavy use of "centaur" mercenaries. Lapis claims that early in the Cleansing Wars, Albeorn destroyed most of Kurn but was torn to pieces by a group of centaur mercenaries that arrived late in the battle. (Unfortunately it is not so easy to kill a champion). There are other references to the elves calling on these "centaurs" and they always take a few days to arrive.
Let's see ... going through Lapis' notes .... As well as their great feats in battle, "Centaurs" were famous also for their promiscuity and their weakness for strong drink.
I thought that Abbey had a Sprite Claw *and* a Pixie Blight.
Let's see: chapter 3:
Deche owed its existence to the wars. My ancestors had followed Myron Troll-Scorcher's first sweep through the northeastern heartland when the Rebirth races— humankind's younger cousins: elves, dwarves, trolls, gnomes, pixies, and all the others except halflings—were cast out. ... When I was born, the pixies were gone, the ogres and the centaurs, too. The center of the heartland—what was left of the once-green heartland after the Pixie-Blight, the Ogre-Naught, and the Centaur-Crusher had purged those races from it—belonged to humankind.
Chapter Twelve
Hamanu stared at the Pixie-Blight. Stripped of illusion— as they all were—Bodach was a small-statured creature. He'd destroyed the smaller, defenseless race of shy, tree-worshipers not by slaying them but by turning their god-trees to sorcerous ash.
So Abbey keeps Wyan [of Bodach] as the pixie blight. Nice detail there too about the trees.
IIRC Abbey posits Sielba as the "Sprite Claw." The WC said that Sielba went after the Pterrans.
Mistakes from the get go. Some idiot gave her bad info. She really believed that Sielba battled sprites because someone at TSR said so and failed to inform her she battled pterrans. Same with half of the Champions.
That's not contradictory. That's ambiguous. Would love to see it. Put it in your supp, if you're serious about doing this Green Age history thing.
My Green Age stuff is going to be a while. I'm basically auditing EVERYTHING for Green Age information. In the meantime I'm going to write a few adventures that tap into Green Age history, or at least take place in old Green Age locations.
For instance, one of the things I've helped with in Lost Cities is a decription that talks about the Preserver Jihad. It speaks a little about how it started and how it got things rolling. It's a tidbit of information that adds depth to the section, and it helps explain how Rajaat could turn on people like that, after teaching everyone for so long.
Also, history is told better through the voices of the people who lived it. Athasian History should always be subjective (and therefore suspect). One of the things I wanted to do for a Cleansing Wars supplement was to detail how the armies fought, and how the races were. I planned to put things in there about how pixies would steal babies and feed them to their tree demon gods. And then talk about how most pixies were druids and lived at peace with the forest. Basically giving both sides, and painting a bigger picture.
It's better to paint with a bigger brush, and let the DM's and the PC's read between the lines.
Yeah, I'd totally dig centaur as a synonym for wemic.
I have the opposite opinion. In fact, I feel so strongly about it, I've practically gotten Brax to reach through the computer screen to try to strangle me.
I have always played Dark Sun with Centaurs still walking around. Even in the few convention games I've played at Gen Con, there was a Centaur PC. The reason why I have always included Centaurs is in Dragon #185 (Sept 1992) in an article by Timothy Brown called Mastered, Yet Untamed, where he has a list of creatures that he considered appropriate. One of them is the Desert Centaur from the Al-Qadim setting.
Then again in my personal campaign I also have Alaghi as a PC race for the same reasons. You are not going to see me argue for that one outside of a personal campaign.
I think that Centaurs existed and I also think horses existed. (I swear I remember a reference to horses in one of the books.) RaFoaDK does mention centaurs as well. And Troy Denning said that Champions and races may have existed that have not been mentioned yet. (Gnoll Basher, Ettin Chomper) So I just added it all up and threw Centaurs in the hinterlands. For official releases though, I think it is best for them to be extinct.
For instance, one of the things I've helped with in Lost Cities is a decription that talks about the Preserver Jihad. It speaks a little about how it started and how it got things rolling. It's a tidbit of information that adds depth to the section, and it helps explain how Rajaat could turn on people like that, after teaching everyone for so long.
Also, history is told better through the voices of the people who lived it. Athasian History should always be subjective (and therefore suspect). One of the things I wanted to do for a Cleansing Wars supplement was to detail how the armies fought, and how the races were.
After Lost Cities is in final release we should start comparing notes.
In this version most are still born as "purebloods" which are almost identical to halflings... though some grow larger up to human size (which is controlled by a feat). There are sets of feats and PrC's that evolve the yuan-ti into the more advanced states.
Just something that I was working on to make them have a more Athasian feel.
I think that Centaurs existed and I also think horses existed. (I swear I remember a reference to horses in one of the books.) RaFoaDK does mention centaurs as well.
Actually, RaFoaDK is the only source of the word centaur, and by extension - in our minds - horses.
Its a safe assumption in D&D if a creature type exists on earth its in a D&D world unless its specifically says it doesn't exist. Horses
unless the niche for the creature is filled. RaFoaDK mentioned people riding Kanks during the Cleansing Wars. For me that pretty much killed the idea of horses. Others may see it differently.
Bruno, I think it's a fair bet that we should only make heritage feats about tried and true DS races, not speculative ones.
Bruno, I think it's a fair bet that we should only make heritage feats about tried and true DS races, not speculative ones.
Yuan-ti seem quite real to me...
Yuan-ti seem quite real to me...
Real? Don't make me worry about you, man. :D
I'm not trying to argue you out of your campaign. No idea how you got that idea from such a small and non-involving comment.
Didn't think you were... I think I'm turning into some sort of Centaur crusader over here...
unless the niche for the creature is filled. RaFoaDK mentioned people riding Kanks during the Cleansing Wars. For me that pretty much killed the idea of horses. Others may see it differently.
Bruno, I think it's a fair bet that we should only make heritage feats about tried and true DS races, not speculative ones.
Don't forget the Crodlus.
The "why not" crusades.
OOOooo SNAP!
:P