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Psionics Suck:)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Zardnaar
Nov 20, 2006 22:09:07 Before you start jumping up and down I've heard the above comment alot and not just online. Down at the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shop) I talk with other RPG players as I only DM. Turns out I was just about the only one to allow Psionics into the game (and the Book of Exalted Deeds). One of the local geeks just about fainted as he was a major Psion fan and usually couldn't play one. Just thought I would start a general Psion thread here for discussion.

To be fair 3.5 is the only version of Psionics so far in D&D I like. The XPH was reasonably impressive and while I think Psionics are a bit "broken" to be honest so is magic and in terms of power I would rate a Psion somewhere around a Cleric/Druid/Wizard in power and ahead of the Sorceror.

The Complete Psion is the worst complete book IMHO due to its content although at least it managed to errata Energy Missile. With a few houserules and leniency I find I can incorporate Psions easily into most of my non DS games and I let most arcane type PrCs be applied to Psionics usually by adjusting the requirements. Spellcraft becomes Psi craft, metamagic/item creation feat becomes a Psionic one and +1 level of spellcasting becomes +1 manifester level.

I actually bought the XPH and Complete Psion because of Athas.org and wanting to run a 3rd ed DS game. Maybe it helps if the DM owns the XPH or the Psion player leaves his copy at the DMs place. I also don't use the Psionics are different rules (even in Dark Sun) due to game balence issues- theres alot of monsters with spell resistence which Psionics can ignore and very few monsters with power resistence for example.

I don't love or hate Psionics and if you reign in some of the dumber powers you should be fine. In general I allow any splat book in my games but have a list of individual things in each book such as Damp Power, Divine Metamagic, Frenzied Berzerkers etc that I don't allow.
#2
cnahumck
Nov 21, 2006 7:20:20 This subject has been argued to death on the Psionic boards. Psionics is not overpowered. Please check out those boards to see why. People with a lot more knowledge on the subject have talked about it here, here, and here.

I like the Darksun forums the way they are, so can we avoid this discussion, since, as you can see, it generally does not turn out well.
#3
Sysane
Nov 21, 2006 8:13:37 Psionics aren't broken, there are just broken things about psionics. However, there are also broken things about divine magic, arcane magic, fighters, etc...

My point being is that its up to DMs and players alike to fix what they find broken in their games.
#4
kalthandrix
Nov 21, 2006 8:30:42 I have to also chime in here and say that topics like this will garner little or no discussion as you would like - psionics have always been a central and key element to Dark Sun - to have a DS world without psionics would be like playing FR with no arcane magic!

If you think it is broken, don't use it.
If you do not like something presented in one of the books, don't use it.
It is easy as that.
#5
thebrax
Nov 21, 2006 12:56:24
Before you start jumping up and down I've heard the above comment alot and not just online. Down at the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shop) I talk with other RPG players as I only DM. Turns out I was just about the only one to allow Psionics into the game (and the Book of Exalted Deeds). One of the local geeks just about fainted as he was a major Psion fan and usually couldn't play one. Just thought I would start a general Psion thread here for discussion.

To be fair 3.5 is the only version of Psionics so far in D&D I like. The XPH was reasonably impressive and while I think Psionics are a bit "broken" to be honest so is magic and in terms of power I would rate a Psion somewhere around a Cleric/Druid/Wizard in power and ahead of the Sorceror.

The Complete Psion is the worst complete book IMHO due to its content although at least it managed to errata Energy Missile. With a few houserules and leniency I find I can incorporate Psions easily into most of my non DS games and I let most arcane type PrCs be applied to Psionics usually by adjusting the requirements. Spellcraft becomes Psi craft, metamagic/item creation feat becomes a Psionic one and +1 level of spellcasting becomes +1 manifester level.

I actually bought the XPH and Complete Psion because of Athas.org and wanting to run a 3rd ed DS game. Maybe it helps if the DM owns the XPH or the Psion player leaves his copy at the DMs place. I also don't use the Psionics are different rules (even in Dark Sun) due to game balence issues- theres alot of monsters with spell resistence which Psionics can ignore and very few monsters with power resistence for example.

I don't love or hate Psionics and if you reign in some of the dumber powers you should be fine. In general I allow any splat book in my games but have a list of individual things in each book such as Damp Power, Divine Metamagic, Frenzied Berzerkers etc that I don't allow.

(emphasis added)

I understand why someone would buy the XPH because of Athas.org -- we've said right out that you need that. I have no idea at all why someone would blame us for buying the Complete Psion. I don't recall anyone at athas.org recommending the book. I personally think it would be a complete mistake to consider using this book for DS campaigns, since the Complete Psion pushes psionics towards a flavor that's IMO very contrary to DS. The Complete Psion wasn't written for Dark Sun, so saying that it's useless to Dark Sun isn't an attack on the book or on the writers. No doubt it's useful to Ebberon DMs. But since I'm exclusively DS, I see no use for it.
#6
cnahumck
Nov 21, 2006 13:06:04 The only things in CP that work for DS are a few powers and the base classes. The Lurk makes for an interesting psionic assassin type, and the ardent and the divine mind put a psionic flavor to possible green age worshipers of divine beings. it has been talked about on the boards, and I think it makes sense, that elemental clerics fit the bill here as worshipers of gods, because the type of god could be associated with an element.

Back on track. I like some things in the CP, but not much. Save your money if you don't have it.
#7
thebrax
Nov 21, 2006 16:49:26
The only things in CP that work for DS are a few powers and the base classes. The Lurk makes for an interesting psionic assassin type, and the ardent and the divine mind put a psionic flavor to possible green age worshipers of divine beings. it has been talked about on the boards, and I think it makes sense, that elemental clerics fit the bill here as worshipers of gods, because the type of god could be associated with an element.

Ah. Good point. Would be useful to populate undead from Green Age ruins. Too bad you and I can't use it for that since it's not OGC ...
#8
cnahumck
Nov 21, 2006 19:29:17 Yeah, that would make things a lot better, besides the fact that I don't really like the Divine Mind mechanics. There are a few things that I wish we would work up Darksun versions of. The practiced caster/manifester are number one. Still find it difficult to keep the SK's on par with where I think they should be. Course, I have someone else in mind for that, too, Brax.
#9
kalthandrix
Nov 21, 2006 21:21:48
Course, I have someone else in mind for that, too, Brax.

Is it the dragon-puppies!!!
#10
Zardnaar
Nov 21, 2006 21:45:15 I actually started this thread as a discussion on Psionics in Darksun. I wasn't being to serious when I blamed Athas.org for buying the Complete Psion. I do blame Athas.org for getting me to play 3.5 DS again though:P

My belief is that Psionics is broken but so is magic and lets leave that arguement for the Psionics board. Do others here all use the Psionics is different rule for example, or since DS in 2nd ed was a more powerful setting would gestalt rules be applicable to DS. A Gestalt Psion/Wizard makes becoming an Avangion/Dragon for example alot easier and retains the 2nd ed flavour of 2 classes better than the 3.5 multiclass rules.

Also another point I may have indirectly raised was how do other DMs/players percieve psionics in their games for example. DS was designed with Psionics in mind even though 2nd ed Psioics rules were reasonably awful IMHO.
#11
cnahumck
Nov 21, 2006 22:52:00
Is it the dragon-puppies!!!

Borys has a familiar. It is here.

back on track:

Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it.

Also, I would avoid gestalt, because it makes it way insane for caster types. One thing to note though, your gestalt mage/psion still has to wait until 21st level to qualify for the dragon PrC and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to cast the metamorphisis.

I like psionics, and use it a lot in my campaigns.
#12
kalthandrix
Nov 21, 2006 22:58:26
Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it.

I like psionics, and use it a lot in my campaigns.

That was a comment mentioned on another thread - about why psionics in Dark Sun should be this way because why else would people take up arcane magic if it was not slightly more powerful then psionics.
#13
Zardnaar
Nov 21, 2006 23:07:03 We're currently running a Gestalt campaign and its alot of fun but were not taking things to seriously. Very 2nd ed in feel in terms of multiclassing and the DM gets to reduce the CR by 1 and also gets to gestalt NPCs.
#14
dracochapel
Nov 22, 2006 3:46:52 Back in the 2nd edition days i found Psionics nearly impossible to use in an AD&D game unless it was Dark Sun and/or the DM was also a fan of psionics. It was a very broken system; most DM's had little idea of how it worked and so i hardly ever got to play one (and consider it very broken).
The 3/3.5 version is much better - the psion is pretty similar to a sorceror and the DM doesnt have to worry about a 1st level character with disintegrate; or a character with powers like kinetic control.
For Dark Sun i dont think third edition is a good fit. Its great to see new products and i loved seeing Dregoth ascending finally. but it isnt the same. I think its unique enough that it needs its own rules. I prefer 3rd edition D&D when i am actually playing D&D. Athas just isnt the same for me in 3rd edition.
I understand some of the design decisions (for example about defilers advancing faster than preservers) and understand the road taken (defiler feats) - but its not the same!
Flame on!
#15
Zardnaar
Nov 22, 2006 3:57:16 Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror).

IMHO the Spell Compendium has alot of spells easily converted to Psionics unless its to obvious magic (necromancy and conjuration type spells foe instance). Most divinination,enchantment, invocation and a few alteration powers are easy enough to convert over.
#16
dracochapel
Nov 22, 2006 4:11:15
Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror).

IMHO the Spell Compendium has alot of spells easily converted to Psionics unless its to obvious magic (necromancy and conjuration type spells foe instance). Most divinination,enchantment, invocation and a few alteration powers are easy enough to convert over.

I think it would need to be similar to magic just to avoid scaring off DMs who might be wary of this different system.
And it would work better as DS d20. Well maybe not better - but more faithful to 2nd edition without all the changes for balance etc.
Hmm, completely different system. Are we ready for GURPS Athas? Though i would totally play a game called Preserver the Ascension.
#17
flip
Nov 22, 2006 8:01:26
Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror).

Well, as far as Athas.org goes, it's pretty much gotta be D&D, per the conditions of our agreement with Wizards. No raw d20 reimagining.

Personally, back in the late 90's I'd worked up Dark Sun in a system called Fudge -- a fairly generic and free-form roleplaying system, skill based, with very coarse grained ability levels. It worked out fairly well, but I never got the feeling that I'd managed to get psionics, or arcane magic, "right" ...
#18
ruhl-than_sage
Nov 22, 2006 20:44:58
Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it.

That was me and it was only Arcane Magic that was better than psionics. I allow detect psionics to detect magic. It is only when things are in contest that Arcane magic automatically wins out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Nov 20, 2006 22:09:07	Before you start jumping up and down I've heard the above comment alot and not just online. Down at the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shop) I talk with other RPG players as I only DM. Turns out I was just about the only one to allow Psionics into the game (and the Book of Exalted Deeds). One of the local geeks just about fainted as he was a major Psion fan and usually couldn't play one. Just thought I would start a general Psion thread here for discussion. To be fair 3.5 is the only version of Psionics so far in D&D I like. The XPH was reasonably impressive and while I think Psionics are a bit "broken" to be honest so is magic and in terms of power I would rate a Psion somewhere around a Cleric/Druid/Wizard in power and ahead of the Sorceror. The Complete Psion is the worst complete book IMHO due to its content although at least it managed to errata Energy Missile. With a few houserules and leniency I find I can incorporate Psions easily into most of my non DS games and I let most arcane type PrCs be applied to Psionics usually by adjusting the requirements. Spellcraft becomes Psi craft, metamagic/item creation feat becomes a Psionic one and +1 level of spellcasting becomes +1 manifester level. I actually bought the XPH and Complete Psion because of Athas.org and wanting to run a 3rd ed DS game. Maybe it helps if the DM owns the XPH or the Psion player leaves his copy at the DMs place. I also don't use the Psionics are different rules (even in Dark Sun) due to game balence issues- theres alot of monsters with spell resistence which Psionics can ignore and very few monsters with power resistence for example. I don't love or hate Psionics and if you reign in some of the dumber powers you should be fine. In general I allow any splat book in my games but have a list of individual things in each book such as Damp Power, Divine Metamagic, Frenzied Berzerkers etc that I don't allow.
#2 cnahumck Nov 21, 2006 7:20:20	This subject has been argued to death on the Psionic boards. Psionics is not overpowered. Please check out those boards to see why. People with a lot more knowledge on the subject have talked about it here, here, and here. I like the Darksun forums the way they are, so can we avoid this discussion, since, as you can see, it generally does not turn out well.
#3 Sysane Nov 21, 2006 8:13:37	Psionics aren't broken, there are just broken things about psionics. However, there are also broken things about divine magic, arcane magic, fighters, etc... My point being is that its up to DMs and players alike to fix what they find broken in their games.
#4 kalthandrix Nov 21, 2006 8:30:42	I have to also chime in here and say that topics like this will garner little or no discussion as you would like - psionics have always been a central and key element to Dark Sun - to have a DS world without psionics would be like playing FR with no arcane magic! If you think it is broken, don't use it. If you do not like something presented in one of the books, don't use it. It is easy as that.
#5 thebrax Nov 21, 2006 12:56:24	Before you start jumping up and down I've heard the above comment alot and not just online. Down at the FLGS (Friendly Local Game Shop) I talk with other RPG players as I only DM. Turns out I was just about the only one to allow Psionics into the game (and the Book of Exalted Deeds). One of the local geeks just about fainted as he was a major Psion fan and usually couldn't play one. Just thought I would start a general Psion thread here for discussion. To be fair 3.5 is the only version of Psionics so far in D&D I like. The XPH was reasonably impressive and while I think Psionics are a bit "broken" to be honest so is magic and in terms of power I would rate a Psion somewhere around a Cleric/Druid/Wizard in power and ahead of the Sorceror. The Complete Psion is the worst complete book IMHO due to its content although at least it managed to errata Energy Missile. With a few houserules and leniency I find I can incorporate Psions easily into most of my non DS games and I let most arcane type PrCs be applied to Psionics usually by adjusting the requirements. Spellcraft becomes Psi craft, metamagic/item creation feat becomes a Psionic one and +1 level of spellcasting becomes +1 manifester level. I actually bought the XPH and Complete Psion because of Athas.org and wanting to run a 3rd ed DS game. Maybe it helps if the DM owns the XPH or the Psion player leaves his copy at the DMs place. I also don't use the Psionics are different rules (even in Dark Sun) due to game balence issues- theres alot of monsters with spell resistence which Psionics can ignore and very few monsters with power resistence for example. I don't love or hate Psionics and if you reign in some of the dumber powers you should be fine. In general I allow any splat book in my games but have a list of individual things in each book such as Damp Power, Divine Metamagic, Frenzied Berzerkers etc that I don't allow. (emphasis added) I understand why someone would buy the XPH because of Athas.org -- we've said right out that you need that. I have no idea at all why someone would blame us for buying the Complete Psion. I don't recall anyone at athas.org recommending the book. I personally think it would be a complete mistake to consider using this book for DS campaigns, since the Complete Psion pushes psionics towards a flavor that's IMO very contrary to DS. The Complete Psion wasn't written for Dark Sun, so saying that it's useless to Dark Sun isn't an attack on the book or on the writers. No doubt it's useful to Ebberon DMs. But since I'm exclusively DS, I see no use for it.
#6 cnahumck Nov 21, 2006 13:06:04	The only things in CP that work for DS are a few powers and the base classes. The Lurk makes for an interesting psionic assassin type, and the ardent and the divine mind put a psionic flavor to possible green age worshipers of divine beings. it has been talked about on the boards, and I think it makes sense, that elemental clerics fit the bill here as worshipers of gods, because the type of god could be associated with an element. Back on track. I like some things in the CP, but not much. Save your money if you don't have it.
#7 thebrax Nov 21, 2006 16:49:26	The only things in CP that work for DS are a few powers and the base classes. The Lurk makes for an interesting psionic assassin type, and the ardent and the divine mind put a psionic flavor to possible green age worshipers of divine beings. it has been talked about on the boards, and I think it makes sense, that elemental clerics fit the bill here as worshipers of gods, because the type of god could be associated with an element. Ah. Good point. Would be useful to populate undead from Green Age ruins. Too bad you and I can't use it for that since it's not OGC ...
#8 cnahumck Nov 21, 2006 19:29:17	Yeah, that would make things a lot better, besides the fact that I don't really like the Divine Mind mechanics. There are a few things that I wish we would work up Darksun versions of. The practiced caster/manifester are number one. Still find it difficult to keep the SK's on par with where I think they should be. Course, I have someone else in mind for that, too, Brax.
#9 kalthandrix Nov 21, 2006 21:21:48	Course, I have someone else in mind for that, too, Brax. Is it the dragon-puppies!!!
#10 Zardnaar Nov 21, 2006 21:45:15	I actually started this thread as a discussion on Psionics in Darksun. I wasn't being to serious when I blamed Athas.org for buying the Complete Psion. I do blame Athas.org for getting me to play 3.5 DS again though:P My belief is that Psionics is broken but so is magic and lets leave that arguement for the Psionics board. Do others here all use the Psionics is different rule for example, or since DS in 2nd ed was a more powerful setting would gestalt rules be applicable to DS. A Gestalt Psion/Wizard makes becoming an Avangion/Dragon for example alot easier and retains the 2nd ed flavour of 2 classes better than the 3.5 multiclass rules. Also another point I may have indirectly raised was how do other DMs/players percieve psionics in their games for example. DS was designed with Psionics in mind even though 2nd ed Psioics rules were reasonably awful IMHO.
#11 cnahumck Nov 21, 2006 22:52:00	Is it the dragon-puppies!!! Borys has a familiar. It is here. back on track: Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it. Also, I would avoid gestalt, because it makes it way insane for caster types. One thing to note though, your gestalt mage/psion still has to wait until 21st level to qualify for the dragon PrC and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to cast the metamorphisis. I like psionics, and use it a lot in my campaigns.
#12 kalthandrix Nov 21, 2006 22:58:26	Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it. I like psionics, and use it a lot in my campaigns. That was a comment mentioned on another thread - about why psionics in Dark Sun should be this way because why else would people take up arcane magic if it was not slightly more powerful then psionics.
#13 Zardnaar Nov 21, 2006 23:07:03	We're currently running a Gestalt campaign and its alot of fun but were not taking things to seriously. Very 2nd ed in feel in terms of multiclassing and the DM gets to reduce the CR by 1 and also gets to gestalt NPCs.
#14 dracochapel Nov 22, 2006 3:46:52	Back in the 2nd edition days i found Psionics nearly impossible to use in an AD&D game unless it was Dark Sun and/or the DM was also a fan of psionics. It was a very broken system; most DM's had little idea of how it worked and so i hardly ever got to play one (and consider it very broken). The 3/3.5 version is much better - the psion is pretty similar to a sorceror and the DM doesnt have to worry about a 1st level character with disintegrate; or a character with powers like kinetic control. For Dark Sun i dont think third edition is a good fit. Its great to see new products and i loved seeing Dregoth ascending finally. but it isnt the same. I think its unique enough that it needs its own rules. I prefer 3rd edition D&D when i am actually playing D&D. Athas just isnt the same for me in 3rd edition. I understand some of the design decisions (for example about defilers advancing faster than preservers) and understand the road taken (defiler feats) - but its not the same! Flame on!
#15 Zardnaar Nov 22, 2006 3:57:16	Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror). IMHO the Spell Compendium has alot of spells easily converted to Psionics unless its to obvious magic (necromancy and conjuration type spells foe instance). Most divinination,enchantment, invocation and a few alteration powers are easy enough to convert over.
#16 dracochapel Nov 22, 2006 4:11:15	Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror). IMHO the Spell Compendium has alot of spells easily converted to Psionics unless its to obvious magic (necromancy and conjuration type spells foe instance). Most divinination,enchantment, invocation and a few alteration powers are easy enough to convert over. I think it would need to be similar to magic just to avoid scaring off DMs who might be wary of this different system. And it would work better as DS d20. Well maybe not better - but more faithful to 2nd edition without all the changes for balance etc. Hmm, completely different system. Are we ready for GURPS Athas? Though i would totally play a game called Preserver the Ascension.
#17 flip Nov 22, 2006 8:01:26	Would DS be better as DS d20 as opposed to D&D or even a non d20 system (duck). The 3.5 Psionics system is the most playable yet (1st ed anyone?) but feels like a magic varient which it essentially is (Psion=better sorceror). Well, as far as Athas.org goes, it's pretty much gotta be D&D, per the conditions of our agreement with Wizards. No raw d20 reimagining. Personally, back in the late 90's I'd worked up Dark Sun in a system called Fudge -- a fairly generic and free-form roleplaying system, skill based, with very coarse grained ability levels. It worked out fairly well, but I never got the feeling that I'd managed to get psionics, or arcane magic, "right" ...
#18 ruhl-than_sage Nov 22, 2006 20:44:58	Darksun assumes the use of the psionics is different rule. One good idea I heard here (don't remember who said it) was that magic can effect psionics, but not the other way around. So detect magic reveals psionics, but detect psionics doesn't detect magic. While I think it is an interesting idea, I don't use it. That was me and it was only Arcane Magic that was better than psionics. I allow detect psionics to detect magic. It is only when things are in contest that Arcane magic automatically wins out.