I was hoping to have a thread (without Necroposting) for talking about the progression of the Green Age.
In my last post about Green Age psionics I got to thinking, The Rhulisti were all technological and presumably civilized. But that society completely crumbled. The Rebirth races basically had a Medieval Fantasy society by the time the Cleansing Wars came about. So I have some questions that I was hoping would prompt some discussion. There is about 9000 to 12000 years of history to think about!
Did the Brown Tide kill Rhulisti?
We know that to stop the Brown Tide, the halflings needed to change the Sun yellow, and then the oceans receded. Was there some sort of mass extinction of the Rhulisti? Or did the population mostly survive the transition?
Did the Rebirth Races start from the Stone Age?
How much of the Rhulisti culture did the rebirth races inherit? In most fantasy campaigns, the Elves are usually a progenitor race in the Tolkien tradition. On Athas, did the elves pick up where the Rhulisti left off, culture wise? Did the Orcs or Trolls start off outside the influence of Rhulisti culture and were seen as savage for a typical fantasy depiction of them? We know lifeshaping was mostly forgotten, was it because psionics was easier? Or was it because the fading Rhulisti weren't educating lifeshaping?
Where did the Rebirth Races originate from?
Were they transformed Rhulisti from the Pristine Tower? Were they created by Rhulisti to survive on the new Green Athas? Did they spontaneously appear out of the forests and hills?
How advanced did Green Age Society get before the Cleansing Wars?
Did they stick to a Feudal society, or did they advance to governments like Democracies and Government States before Rajaat killed everybody? Were institutions like Universities in existence? Were Green Age scholars more aware of their Blue Age history then Modern Athasians are aware of their Green Age history?
By the time the Cleansing Wars started, did inter-race relations totally break down?
We know Rajaat and his Champions were murderous racists, did whole swaths of humanity buy into the racist hype? Or were the Armies of the Champions conscripted? Did Elves and Dwarves fight each other during the Cleansing Wars, or did they have a unified front? We know there HAD to be war during the Green Age before the Cleansing Wars, how did the animosities run? Along typical fantasy lines? Dwarf vs. Elf? Human vs. Orc?
Anyway... just throwing these thoughts out there. Has anyone come up with answers for their own campaign? Does athas.org have any official answers to any of these questions?
Did the Brown Tide kill Rhulisti?
Since the Rebirth was an aspect of the Pristine Tower, and there's only so many halflings you can fit into that place and the area around it (where the New Races are spawned), I'm inclined to believe that the BT killed off most of 'em. There would be pockets here and there, including those that eventually turn into the modern-day halflings, but on a world-wide scale I think that the loss of the oceans and accompanying loss of the Rhulisti's food chain would have killed a vast majority of the race.
Did the Rebirth Races start from the Stone Age?
Those Rhulisti that changed into intelligent species would probably have kept their memories, so although they couldn't lifeshape anymore (nor would they want to, as, IIRC, they realized that it was their control of nature that resulted in the Blue Age dying) they'd at least have enough knowledge to rebuild societies fairly quickly. It would have been like going back to square one, since their technological base was completely changed, but the fact that they had some idea of what *could* be done probably meant that they would have rebuilt civilizations fairly quickly. So although the new humanoid races probably were stuck in the equivalent to a Stone Age for a little while, I think it would have been more like a case of "making do with what you have" rather than actually thinking in a Stone Age fashion - they'd have lived off the land while trying to figure out new ways of doing stuff, which would have been influenced by their new racial characteristics, and so would have resulted in each race "doing things their own way" as they developed non-life-shaping technology.
Where did the Rebirth Races originate from?
They came from the Pristine Tower - every piece of Athasian history I'm aware of says that.
How advanced did Green Age Society get before the Cleansing Wars?
"High fantasy" civilizations, possibly even more advanced than that. The Last Sea is a "living fossil" of Green Age life in many ways, so that's the best example of what a "generic Green Age society" would be like (...if you take away the crazy rulers, at least). Since each city-state is based on a different culture, we can also assume that these cultures existed prior to the Cleansing Wars (it's doubtful that a Champion would have completely re-created a society from scratch; much easier to take an existing one and just manipulate it over the centuries to their liking). Given the wide variety of cultures we see in the city-states, I don't see any reason to not believe that the Green Age had an equally, if not greater, selection of cultures and societies, kingdoms and democracies, etc.
By the time the Cleansing Wars started, did inter-race relations totally break down?
One thing I noted 'bout the Cleansing War timeline was that the first races to be wiped out were almost all goblinoids, which leads me to believe that the war was a carefully perpetrated "escalation of racial tensions" as it were. In my mind, the CW likely started with the Champions rallying humans and possibly even the other non-goblinoid races against the most monstrous of the rebirth races, and as that war progressed they'd slowly begin involving other races as well on both sides of the fray, until centuries later it's a full-scale world war with most of the combatants not really sure why it is they're fighting other than "it's always been that way." Lynn Abbey does a great job of describing the situation in this fashion in RaFoaDK.
Probably the biggest factor in how the CW happened is the fact that the Champions were immortal, while the majority of the individuals fighting in the war were not. Once a "world war" was begun, it would have been a fairly simple matter to manipulate things so that, in the end, it was humanity against every other race, and every other race segregated from each other, not trusting anyone and trying to fight the humans on their own.
How advanced did Green Age Society get before the Cleansing Wars?
That period breaks down in several parts: The height of the psionic era before magic came along, and the subsequent height of the magic & psionic era before the Preserver Jihad came along.
I would say it got quite far (not Faerunian- or Eberroni-far, though) in both cases; between Middle Ages/Renaissance onward towards the limit of pre-industrial.
Plus, the novel The Darkness Before the Dawn paints a picture of the height of the Green Age psionic era (pre-magic) as boasting high-rises, roman-like central heating, hand-powered water pumps and pressure-powered pumps, scopes, and solar collectors to heat up food.
That period breaks down in several parts: The height of the psionic era before magic came along, and the subsequent height of the magic & psionic era before the Preserver Jihad came along.
I would say it got quite far (not Faerunian- or Eberroni-far, though) in both cases; between Middle Ages/Renaissance onward towards the limit of pre-industrial.
Plus, the novel The Darkness Before the Dawn paints a picture of the height of the Green Age psionic era (pre-magic) as boasting high-rises, roman-like central heating, hand-powered water pumps and pressure-powered pumps, scopes, and solar collectors to heat up food.
I'd also add my strong suspicion that not all areas were equally developed. Halflings isolated their tech from others, and I'll bet that not all Green Age societies were equal. Not all had meorties; not all had psionic obsidian ball thingies. The very fact that the Mind Lords were able to so isolate their little pocket of the world, and the fact that you had so many different races all grouped close together and yet culturally separate within the Saragar region, makes me think that there was considerable isolation even back then. I think that's why it's the warlords like Irikos that attack the mixed-race cities like Bodach, in the shadow of the Preserver Jihad, as a warm-up for the Cleansing wars. Complete the isolation, and *then* it's easier to set off on the extermination warpath.
Some societies were richer than others. Some had better, more open education sytems. Others offered strong, uniting religions.
Others stayed conservative in the face of overwhelming change, others were prone to draining wars, etc.
Modern Earth civilizations are becoming ever more homogenous, uniting under the free-access media and far-reaching communications techonologies umbrella. What uniting factors were there in Athas' Green Age?
Not many I would surmise. Goblins warred with themselves and their neighbors. Some races lived in alien mediums like air or water (aarakocras and lizardfolk).
There were dozens of races and languages, thousands of dialects, maybe a hundred strong city-states each with its own age-old laws and ways of doing things.
Outside of the Great Pantheon, the religion which at one time swept over the Tablelands area, uniting many of the city-states under one polytheistic religion - which didn't stop them from warring against each other - I don't see a uniting factor.
Isolation indeed seems to be an important factor to help explain the dichotomies of Green Age civilization.
Some societies were richer than others. Some had better, more open education sytems. Others offered strong, uniting religions.
Others stayed conservative in the face of overwhelming change, others were prone to draining wars, etc.
Modern Earth civilizations are becoming ever more homogenous, uniting under the free-access media and far-reaching communications techonologies umbrella.
Yep! And yet the first major war of the 21st century took place between the country with the most powerful military in the world's history, and a tribe of cave-dwellers living on the opposite side of the world.
Most of the conflicts of our time have to do with globalization or resistance to globalization. As you close a powerful electric circuit, sparks fly between the contacts. Some say that's a sign to not close the circuit, while others say that once you close the circuit, that current flows freely with no sparks.What uniting factors were there in Athas' Green Age?
The only two uniting factors I can think of would be the pyreen and the few mixed-race cities.
The Pyreen, the so-called peace bringers that had the faces of different races, and, I'd infer, generally brought peace by helping different peoples come to an understanding.
The mixed-race cities, such as Giustenal and Bodach. The timeline eroneously implies that Giustenal was founded to house the rebirth races but we know in fact that Giustenal was originally a halfling city. Given the proximity to the Pristine Tower, I'd bet that the mixed-race city was literally descended from the halfling one. I would surmise that some people remembered who they had been, while others ... went out and lived in caves, fought people who looked different from them, and rewrote their histories to make themselves the victims of others. Initially there's so much land that you can just move away from conflict, but then people start fighting for the best land.
Xlore once had a theory that the 1st generation races of the Rebirth started out remembering that they were once rhusliti, but as time passed (may be a span of several years) they began to slowly forget who and what they were as well as their true origins.
I imagine that this played out differently among different races and cultures. Since Bodach and Giustenal, the mixed-raced cities, were settled right at the rebirth, and since they'd been rhulisti cities before, I'd bet that it's kind of hard to forget when the evidence is all around you, in your face. Even if you mentally forgot, if you're in a big city, chances are that someone's written it down. And if some people start to forget, you can bet that others will write it down.
One thing that I am fairly certain of, though, is that no actual life-shapers came across into the Rebirth Races and retained their memory. History would have played out differently had the Rebirth races been using life-shaping. OTOH the ZC may be nature-benders, if they were a rebirth race ... :D
I imagine that this played out differently among different races and cultures. Since Bodach and Giustenal, the mixed-raced cities, were settled right at the rebirth, and since they'd been rhulisti cities before, I'd bet that it's kind of hard to forget when the evidence is all around you, in your face. Even if you mentally forgot, if you're in a big city, chances are that someone's written it down. And if some people start to forget, you can bet that others will write it down.
How do we know that Giustenal and Bodach were the first Green Age cities?
One thing that I am fairly certain of, though, is that no actual life-shapers came across into the Rebirth Races and retained their memory. History would have played out differently had the Rebirth races been using life-shaping. OTOH the ZC may be nature-benders, if they were a rebirth race ... :D
I think that lifeshaping is the exclusive provence of the Rhulisti. Like the Tul'ks who were once Dune Stalkers, if large swaths of Rhulisti were changed into a particular race, their minds would be shattered in the process and they would have to start learning how to live again from scratch.
Now did certain races remember more then others? One common fan-based theme is Green Age elves were sea-farers. Did the elves have a strong Rhulisti memory? The Dwarves have a strong sense of history. Did Green Age dwarves loose their memory but were in possession of a Rhulisti library? Did Green Age Orc just get screwed all over and were basically the Green Age Tul'k?
Because we know that some cities were mixed race and some were not, it would be a mistake to talk strictly about which races remembered what. Race does not correspond to culture, and not even culture directly corresponds to nation or allegiance. Look at the Carthaginians in our world, for example.
Some Elves may have been seafaring, and yet the only city that the WJ or WC identify specifically as an "elven" city is Kurn, which is clearly landlocked. And yet another group of elves may have been integrated with the mixed cities of Bodach and Giustenal. Perhaps Tyr as well, since that too was a previously blue age city.
The timeline cites Bodach and Giustenal as being founded to house the rebirth races but this is technically innacurate since previous sources show that these cities existed first as Rhulisti cities.
Giustenal I understand, but where are you getting that Bodach was?
The timeline cites Bodach and Giustenal as being founded to house the rebirth races but this is technically innacurate since previous sources show that these cities existed first as Rhulisti cities.
So do you think that the Pristine Tower just created a sort of Awakening where >POP< people just became a new race? (Kind of like you wake up one day to find you are a Dwarf, and your next door neighbors are Gnomes.)
Or the Pristine Tower changed people who happen to be in the area, like what happened to Windsinger or the Tul'ks?
Maybe the Pristine Tower sent out transformative storms and changed who swaths of people all over the Tablelands...
I bring it up because unless the Rebirth Races all were created in the same moment, then some races were created from the Rhulisti before others. The cool thing about that is it would justify a few things that would make the Green Age similar enough to a typical fantasy world where things would be recognizable. Like if elves, dwarves and pixies were first. Then humans and gnomes and . So on and so on and Orcs could be last. That way the races with the 'head start' would basically have 'dibs' on the Rhulisti cities and the later races would be at a disadvantage and be stuck living in badlands.
If you have to be in the proximity of the Pristine Tower to transform, then that would make the Tablelands the most diverse racial area on the whole planet, and cities like Giustenal and Bodach would be likely. As you get farther and farther away, like on neighboring continents your humanoid populations would have to have immigrated, and there would be less diversity in Rebirth Races. (That is until that world-wide psionic orb subway system was in place.)
Do you think what would be the traditional 'Elder' races would have had an earlier start? Or did the Rebirth happen in one fell swoop?
I imagine that this played out differently among different races and cultures. Since Bodach and Giustenal, the mixed-raced cities, were settled right at the rebirth, and since they'd been rhulisti cities before, I'd bet that it's kind of hard to forget when the evidence is all around you, in your face. Even if you mentally forgot, if you're in a big city, chances are that someone's written it down. And if some people start to forget, you can bet that others will write it down.
And CbtSS mentions that in those first few generations, Guistenal had halfings among its population...hence civilized halfings, since savage Ringing Mountains halfings only came about thousands of years later.
So, the Guistenal first few generations had access to the lore of a slowly dissapearing civilization, i.e. a rhulisti people that had left their lifeshaping lore behind and instead imparted what they knew of civilized living before they chose to retire from the world.
So do you think that the Pristine Tower just created a sort of Awakening where >POP< people just became a new race? (Kind of like you wake up one day to find you are a Dwarf, and your next door neighbors are Gnomes.)
No.
I imagine that this played out differently among different races and cultures. Since Bodach and Giustenal, the mixed-raced cities, were settled right at the rebirth, and since they'd been rhulisti cities before, I'd bet that it's kind of hard to forget when the evidence is all around you, in your face. Even if you mentally forgot, if you're in a big city, chances are that someone's written it down. And if some people start to forget, you can bet that others will write it down.
And CbtSS mentions that in those first few generations, Guistenal had halfings among its population...hence civilized halfings, since savage Ringing Mountains halfings only came about thousands of years later.
That's even better.
So, the Guistenal first few generations had access to the lore of a slowly dissapearing civilization, i.e. a rhulisti people that had left their lifeshaping lore behind and instead imparted what they knew of civilized living before they chose to retire from the world
Interesting. I wonder why the halfling ones died out within generations like that. Will have to unpack CBTSS.
I personally felt that the rhulisti would have gone to the Pristine Tower and had the process done to them individually (or some other limited number).
That's how I see it, too. I think the memory thing varied. Nothing on Athas is equal or fair.
Which leads me to think they retired from civilization, letting the Rebirth races take over the land as per the new world order, of their very own design I might had.
Those halflings are probably now the savage ones. The rhul-taun apparently never took part in the Rebirth....for whatever weird reason.
AFAIK they did not die out, but the orb mentions that - over time- it registered less and less halfings, until they no longer could be found within Guistenal.
Which leads me to think they retired from civilization, letting the Rebirth races take over the land as per the new world order, of their very own design I might had.
Those halflings are probably now the savage ones. The rhul-taun apparently never took part in the Rebirth....for whatever weird reason.
I go with Abbey ... that the halfling masters were split on the whole rebirth thing. I think there's more to the story about the brown tide being to increase ocean productivity etc. There had just been that big war with the nature-benders. It's reasonable to infer that when you have a protracted war between two groups that are into genetic manipulation that you might end up with some sort of ecological devastation. Maybe the brown tide was supposed to repair some of this. I think Abbey's right that the rhulisti masters were divided on some issue and that Rajaat's on one side. When Rajaat talks about "restoring" the blue age that's like the wahabbist talk of "restoring" Islam. It's one version of the blue age he wants to "restore," filtered through one of the factions.
AFAIK they did not die out, but the orb mentions that - over time- it registered less and less halfings, until they no longer could be found within Guistenal.
Which leads me to think they retired from civilization, letting the Rebirth races take over the land as per the new world order, of their very own design I might had.
Those halflings are probably now the savage ones. The rhul-taun apparently never took part in the Rebirth....for whatever weird reason.
My guess would be this: that other races simply outbred the halflings and that the halflings living with humans in Bodach and Giustenal were the first ones killed by Rajaat's warlords. The savage halflings were IMO tossed out of rhul-thaun society when their ancestors first began manifesting psionics. "This is different. Different is bad," say the rhul-thaun leaders, especially since the psionic event was just 1-2 generations after the rebirth.
There are several mentions, in the supplements, of rhulisti groups going into far away lands, underground, or into stasis when the menace of the Brown Tide looked hopeless and before the Rebirth was thought of. The Cleft Rock halflings in stasis are one such group.
This tells me that the majority of the halfings left active near the end of the Brown Tide period decided to go with the Rebirth scheme...but that others before chose other means, mostly schemes of riding out the Tide until they could emerge again into the world.
I guess the rhul-taun are one such group, who either "emerged" from their hideout during the Green Age, or either had chosen to go "far away". Their story is probably the latter. Either way, and IIRC, their civilization never really went through a transitional period between rhulisti mastery and rhul-taun decadence. Dunno what really happened to those guys. Bruno recently read Windriders, so he might be able to answer that one.
My guess would be this: that other races simply outbred the halflings and that the halflings living with humans in Bodach and Giustenal were the first ones killed by Rajaat's warlords.
They vacated the cities before the Time of Magic came along, so its their own doing.
There are several mentions, in the supplements, of rhulisti groups going into far away lands, underground, or into stasis when the menace of the Brown Tide looked hopeless and before the Rebirth was thought of. The Cleft Rock halflings in stasis are one such group.
This tells me that the majority of the halfings left active near the end of the Brown Tide period decided to go with the Rebirth scheme...but that others before chose other means, mostly schemes of riding out the Tide until they could emerge again into the world.
Pretty much how I see it.
They vacated the cities before the Time of Magic came along, so its their own doing.
CBTSS says that specifically?
No, I'm referring to her speculations through Hamanu in RaFoaDK.
Do you recall what they are, or when they occur in the book?
CBTSS says that specifically?
Its not precise.
Kataal the orb says:
"The city was full of people, though not one of them was a halfling"
Kataal himself, though, was a Green Age halfling...
And the supplement itself says:
"As the new races like humans, dwarves, and elves took their place in the world, the halflings became less and less civilized."
So, I'm unsure now. One thing that's possible is that I'm mixing up references, CbtSS and something else.
Oh, and btw, CbtSS says Rajaat was born at the Rebirth...probably a contradiction.
I have never fully understood why the War-Bringer needed champions. His power was so much greater than ours. He could have cleansed Athas of every race in a single afternoon. For thirteen ages, I've examined this question. I have no good answer. The answer must lie with the halflings themselves. Halflings destroyed their blue world, which Rajaat wished to recreate, and when it was gone—before they retreated into their tribal, forest lives—halflings created humanity. But which halflings?
Surely there was some dissent, some rebellion driven underground. Perhaps rebel halflings created Rajaat; perhaps he found them on his own. Whichever, Rajaat had halfling allies before he created the first champion, and he and his allies nurtured one another's hatred of the green world Athas had become. Hatred made them all mad; madness made them devious, and because Rajaat was both mad and devious, he created champions to do the bloody work of cleansing Athas of the races he hated, while his own hands remained unsullied.
"As the new races like humans, dwarves, and elves took their place in the world, the halflings became less and less civilized."
That's talking about the race in general, not about individual city-dwelling halflings.
Kataal the orb says:
"The city was full of people, though not one of them was a halfling"
Kataal himself, though, was a Green Age halfling...
Exactly. Look at the speaker. Could be that by his definition, a halfling dwelling in the human cities was not a halfling. Surely you've seen cultural equivalents to that sort of talk.
That's talking about the race in general, not about individual city-dwelling halflings.
I wasn't positing individual halflings becoming uncivilized, but rather a racial effort, a laisser faire, steming from a profound tiredness about the world - knowing they had destroyed it once - and from the weight of the responsibilites of shepherding the Rebirth races.
Perhaps rebel halflings created Rajaat; perhaps he found them on his own.
I don't see the halflings doing that. What I do see is some of them turning bitter over time, over the new creation they barely agreed with in the first place, and Rajaat finding those particular halflings...or calling them to him, and using them to his advantage.
I wasn't positing individual halflings becoming uncivilized, but rather a racial effort, a laisser faire, steming from a profound tiredness about the world - knowing they had destroyed it once - and from the weight of the responsibilites of shepherding the Rebirth races.
I don't think it was a malaise, I think the Rhulisti were fish out of water. (Pun intended.)
The Rhulisti were a people that lived for millennia off of lifeshaped devices. The Rhulisti had an extremely comfortable standard of living, they lived under a blue sun, they were not familiar with Psionics, and they were used to most of the planet covered in ocean. They were used to being the only intelligent race.
Athas being changed into a green world with a yellow sun, psionics and covered in strange races with strange shapes. The change was too much for them for them to prosper as Rhulisti. The Green Age was not conducive for lifeshaping, the pith that was the basis of lifeshaping technology mostly died off under the yellow sun.
Without Lifeshaping, without their culture, without their oceans, there was nothing left for the Rhulisti to do. As a people their world was gone. The ones that clung to life became Halflings or Cliff dwellers. They just faded away.
I wasn't positing individual halflings becoming uncivilized, but rather a racial effort, a laisser faire, steming from a profound tiredness about the world - knowing they had destroyed it once - and from the weight of the responsibilites of shepherding the Rebirth races.
Sounds like the Pyreen role.
Besides, if they could read and write, then the fact that some didn't remember would make little difference in the long term, at least in Giustenal (and possibly Bodach, if that had halflings as well).
I'd hardly say it would steal from the role of the pyreen, especially since the halfings would have still numbered in the thousands at the time and not so the pyreen, who, anyway, would have needed to grow as a people in the first place so as to help the other races...a thing the halfings already had achieved. After a few generations, let's say maybe five, the halfings were all gone to places unknown, and the pyreen starting to rise as a protecting people.
NytCrawlr postulated that the first individuals of the Rebirth races remembered very little of the lore of their past lives, forgetting nearly everything within a few years, while pyreen remembered more and in any case lived far longer lives, so they managed to remember parts of that hard-earned halfling wisdom, which they thaught their descendants.
No idea where your interbreeding idea comes from.
"retire from the world" isn't very specific. Generally peoples that dissapear, either get killed, or they die of disease, or they interbreed with others. There are a couple groups that go off by mass suicide, like the Jonesies or Heaven's Gate, but that didn't seem appropriate here for the wise halfling folks that you posited. It's very nice and Tolkienesque to have a world-weary people retire gracefully from the world and sail into the undying west, but to my knowledge there's no literal "stop the world, I want to get off" mechanic on Athas, any more than there is in our world.
And then, if you posit that halflings could breed with any of the Rebirth Races, there's always the possiblity that as the numbers of other races expanded, that they interbred.
And the Simon Hawke crapfest of novels is a precedent for that as well with the main character being an Elfling and all.
Halflings are the source of everyone, maybe they COULD breed with everyone. What would a Halfling-Wemic be? A Wemling?
It's very nice and Tolkienesque to have a world-weary people retire gracefully from the world and sail into the undying west, but to my knowledge there's no literal "stop the world, I want to get off" mechanic on Athas, any more than there is in our world.
Having never read Tolkien, any apparent epic, dramatic vistas invoked by what I wrote are purely coincidental (/lawyer talk).
I imagine some halflings helping the Rebirth races, in the cities, for a while, until they left the cities for the wild, and next the Rebirth races encountered them they'd become...the wild savages that we know, only too happy now a days to dine on stray travellers.
Tauric breeding is weird, and we'd have to pick a model for how it worked. If halflings and wemics could breed, you could say that a pureblood halfling would produce a hybrid that was a halfling for almost all intents and purposes, but that could be parent to a wemic in future generations.
Given the art I've seen on wemics, halflings seem the better description of the top half than any other race I can think of. But that doesn't matter since wemics are gone.
Having never read Tolkien, any apparent epic, dramatic vistas invoked by what I wrote are purely coincidental (/lawyer talk).
Again, the source doesn't matter. The fact that Tolkein did something does not mean per se that it's inapplicable to Dark Sun. Not everything that Tolkien did was graceful, sweet, and sublimated. Some of the conversation between Bilbo and Smaug gets down into the nitty-gritty of low fantasy, for example. But the whole graceful and sweet "retire from the world" trope is high fantasy painted in pastel colors. That's not an attack; there's a time and place for that kind of style, but Athas is not the place.
In a world where genocide is a major theme, you don't have a whole race disappear from civilization just because they decided to retire from the world.
My guess would be this: that other races simply outbred the halflings and that the halflings living with humans in Bodach and Giustenal were the first ones killed by Rajaat's warlords. The savage halflings were IMO tossed out of rhul-thaun society when their ancestors first began manifesting psionics. "This is different. Different is bad," say the rhul-thaun leaders, especially since the psionic event was just 1-2 generations after the rebirth.
Any response to this, Penn? In case you are remotely tempted to respond "I don't know where that came from," see the Jagged Cliffs bit about halflings that have psionics keeping a low profile and general rhul-thaun cultural discomfort with psionics. Please also see the following line of reasoning as the source for "where that came from:"
Q1: Do halflings sometimes manifest psionics? A: Yes.
Q2: What's the most likely thing that rhul-thaun would do with halflings that manifest psionics? A: Kick them out.
Q3: What would psionic rhul-thaun do when expelled? A: Either die, or survive.
Q4: What would the survivors do: A: Probably become feral forest dwellers.
So please feel free to disagree but please don't say you don't know where it came from :P
I love Lynne Abbey, but I'm not giving Urik a silt dock.
Wow. Where is that from? I'm not an omnipotent observer of Abbey's work, but I failed to notice this if she indeed wrote about it. Pages would help.
As for the "where its from" comments, if you mention it comes from X or Y, I won't have to ask. :D
Any response to this, Penn?
Its a good idea, savage halflings as throwouts from rhul-taun and other civilized halfling societies. Go for it if you can.
I still have no opinion as to what exactly would have happened to the still-civilized halflings for them to "dissapear" from the early Green Age cities.
Tauric breeding is weird, and we'd have to pick a model for how it worked. If halflings and wemics could breed, you could say that a pureblood halfling would produce a hybrid that was a halfling for almost all intents and purposes, but that could be parent to a wemic in future generations.
I think the best way to go about that problem is keep it in the narrative and not go into gene mapping. As a general rule from previous games that were not Dark Sun, but have Centaur player characters in them, I've said that if you have two humans that have a centaur mother or father breed, their children have a 25% chance being a centaur. I would apply the same thing to any Tauric race, like Wemics or the Yuan-Ti proto-race.
I think the best way to go about that problem is keep it in the narrative
It's not a problem because I've kept it in the narrative.
and not go into gene mapping. As a general rule from previous games that were not Dark Sun, but have Centaur player characters in them, I've said that if you have two humans that have a centaur mother or father breed, their children have a 25% chance being a centaur. I would apply the same thing to any Tauric race, like Wemics or the Yuan-Ti proto-race
Unrealistic "25%" gene-mapping is still gene-mapping. If it were that fragging predictable, the champions would have caught on. I've kept it in narrative in a way that no one predicts or understands. The fact that it's more true to earth science is not the selling point -- the selling point is that we keep it out of the hands of rulemakers and in the hands of storytellers. No percentage. Recombination is rare, unpredictable, and about as disputed as virgin births.
Did the Brown Tide kill Rhulisti?
So far the answer is: not at all. The Brown Tide destroyed the world and made Athas a planet of mud. As forests started to grow and new races and animals appeared, the Rhulisti faded out of Athasian history in a manner still under discussion.
Did the Rebirth Races start from the Stone Age?
The running answer is: kinda. There were Rhulisti cities that had large scale Rebirth Race immigration. Anyone not in a city was eking out a living on vast mud plains and islands turned mountains.
Where did the Rebirth Races originate from?
Answer: From being in the proximity of the pristine tower. To try to justify how an entire race could have came about from mutations from the Pristine Tower, we have surmised that Halflings can breed with any Rebirth Race and the offspring is likely to be the Rebirth Race.
How advanced did Green Age Society get before the Cleansing Wars?
Answer: Pretty darn advanced. From pre-Medieval origins to a near-industrial age before the Birth of Magic. Psionics covered the whole planet in orb technology that made the life very comfortable and leisurely. Psionic Masters were more powerful then anything Athas has seen before or since.
By the time the Cleansing Wars started, did inter-race relations totally break down?
The answer: unresolved. Obviously race relations weren't all happy happy joy joy, but maybe not on a cleansing war level. Thoughts?
Unrealistic "25%" gene-mapping is still gene-mapping. If it were that fragging predictable, the champions would have caught on. I've kept it in narrative in a way that no one predicts or understands. The fact that it's more true to earth science is not the selling point -- the selling point is that we keep it out of the hands of rulemakers and in the hands of storytellers. No percentage. Recombination is rare, unpredictable, and about as disputed as virgin births.
Well yeah... I was only providing an example that I've done in the past as a guideline.
And of course it's unrealistic. A Tauric race being able to mate with humans and an animal and give birth to either or or a mix of both and have all the children be able to give birth to taurics is completely impossible. Cool for the Yuan-Ti and I hope we all run with it, but still...
By the time the Cleansing Wars started, did inter-race relations totally break down?
The answer: unresolved. Obviously race relations weren't all happy happy joy joy, but maybe not on a cleansing war level. Thoughts?
Why yes Exiled, I do have some thoughts on the matter, thank you for asking.
I think Rajaat and the Champions over the course of a thousand years used spys and agents to keep the Rebirth Races at each other's throats. By the time of the dawn of the Cleansing Wars I'm sure there were individuals as powerful as the Champions. People like Rakard and the elven chiefs come to mind. I don't think that the humans were numerous or powerful enough to overwhelm all the rebirth races, I prefer to think that the Rebirth Races could have joined against Rajaat, Rajaat would have lost the war if they did.
In order to defeat the Rebirth Races and their own Champions, (I think Champion is a Green Age title that Rajaat took over, rather then invented for his own minions.) he needed to have the Rebirth Races turn on each other before and during the Wars to give him strategic superiority.
Now here's another question: Were the Rebirth Races aware that all these human Champions servants of the same man? (The Champions didn't even know about the halfling end game until the very last days of the Wars, it does follow that noone was aware of his true motives.) Because if the people of Athas knew Rajaat was amassing armies to kill everyone but humans, why didn't that join forces?
I conjecture that they didn't join forces because of the non-extant race relations that exist in modern Athas. If the rebirth races joined up and were defeated you would think there would be more memory of camaraderie and more of a general animosity against humans. The aftermath we are presented with blames the Sorcerer-monarchs and not humans.
Another question: Presumably, The Preserver Jihad killed off the powerful Preservers, leaving only defilers as the master of magics on Athas. Did the Rebirth Races have powerful defilers of their own to help defend against Rajaat's Champions? He know that humans had the best aptitude for defiling, but the other races should be able to present themselves with some magical talent. Or on the other hand, did powerful Preservers survive the Preserver Jihad to be around to defend the Rebirth Races? OR on the other, other hand, was the prejudice against magic using already in place by the end of the Preserver Jihad and the only powerful mages left were the ones in Rajaat's employ?
As for how inter-racial relations before the Cleansing wars, I imagine things varied. People warred for greed, land, resources, revenge, preemptive paranoia, to gain wealth and slaves, or for rulers to distract their subjects from domestic problems. But the fact that they call it "the cleansing wars" suggests that this was the first known large scale war that had racial extermination as a special purpose. The goblins of Nidukhazi drove the trolls out of Hen Gizaz in the first generation of the Green Age, but didn't try to pursue and exterminate them. When Keltis offered a "solution" to the lizardman raiding, the coastal Kel Tas assumed he meant simply exterminating them from the Starlight sea. No one conceived how far this was going to go in the beginning.
Some of the champions were former warlords (e.g. Borys), some warlords never became champions, like Irikos. You never hear of a champion becoming a warlord. Since Irikos was the left hand of Rajaat, the idea of Champion being a promotion from warlord is questionable. Chris and I have infered that the warlords were more a feature of the preserver Jihad. I don't think that the preserver Jihad ended when the Clansing Wars began, mind you; we know it didn't since Hamanu was still around writing letters to the warlord Merek during the Road of Fire campaign. Hamanu's letters to Merek in Dragon's Crown date a preserver resistance to at most a couple King's Ages before the Rebellion against Rajaat.
But much earlier in the Preserver Jihad, Rajaat used the Irikos the warlord to destroy Bodach, which we know was a mixed-race city. Rajaat broke the states like Bodach that could have united the races.
That doesn't mean that other races never united against the "human threat." If you read TotDL, there's considerable suggestion there that some humans were united with non-human races against the champions. Elves hired their centaur mercs, whatever "centaurs" were. I doubt that Rajaat went to great lengths try to stop such relatively small-scale unions. Remember, he wanted to exterminate the *human* race as well. He wanted the other side to put up a fight. If the humans exterminated the other races too easily, they'd be harder to finish off.
One thing though: Taking the decision that Irikos is not a Champion solves a million problems, but do remember that the Book of Artifacts - a non-DS publication - said he is a Champion, and successfuly cleansed the orcs. So in that context the attack on Bodach was racially motivated.
Now that book, not being a DS-publication, can be ignored where it causes problems for Athas.org, causing us to use the only remaining references to Irikos (i.e. Psionic Artifacts of Athas), which happen to slickly not mention wheter he's a Champion or not, IIRC.
Could someone take a look at Psionic Artifacts of Athas, the entry on the swords and the first chapter (which mentions the Silencer), and tell us wheter Irikos is refered to as a Champion or not?
- Jihad begins, defiler warlords rise
- Some are called Left and Right Hands (Myron and Irikos)
- Wars begin, Champions rise
- Among them Myron
So, at least one warlord became a Champion later on - Myron.
Since Irikos was the left hand of Rajaat, the idea of Champion being a promotion from warlord is questionable.
Yes, albeit their was a promotion at the power level - gaining the Champion of Rajaat template.
Wow, either you read my frequently repeated ramblings on the boards about the Jihad, defiler warlords, and Champions, or we did read all the same references and connected them up the same way!
GMTA. Wish I had read your discussion, since it took me considerable time to string it together. Chris seems to have come to the same conclusions independently as well.
One thing though: Taking the decision that Irikos is not a Champion solves a million problems, but do remember that the Book of Artifacts - a non-DS publication - said he is a Champion, and successfuly cleansed the orcs. So in that context the attack on Bodach was racially motivated.
I'd tend to read the word "champion" in the generic non-DS sense when reading a generic non-DS source. And if Irikos "cleansed" the orcs from Bodach, that would not literally contradict the text.
Now that book, not being a DS-publication, can be ignored where it causes problems for Athas.org, causing us to use the only remaining references to Irikos (i.e. Psionic Artifacts of Athas), which happen to slickly not mention wheter he's a Champion or not, IIRC.
Well, you know my approach to canon. As I see it, we can't afford to ignore any of TSR's stuff on Dark Sun; we simply look at all of the sources together and form the most consistent, functional, and believable picture. Where sources disagree, we can read one narrowly or broadly to avoid a conflict (like I just did with "champion" and "cleansed") or we can say that one represents a point of view or a false belief connected with a specific agenda. For example, the sources that say that "halflings can't be wizards," I'd ascribe to the purist halfling supremacy of Rajaat and his halfling cronies. Halflings "can't" use wizardry because doing so would violate their holy idea of what a halfling is. When faced with plain examples like Nok in the Verdant Passage or that halfling Chieftain in Dragon's Crown, the totalitarian reaction would be to waffle, obfuscate, and eventually to blurt out something to the effect of "don't confuse me with the facts." :D
When we run into something truly ludicrous, for example, the WC saying that the "age of magic" started three thousand years before Rajaat displayed or taught arcane magic to anyone ---
[INDENT]--(when you think about it, that's like saying that the sexual revolution started in the 1940s, in Hugh Hefner's clost, when he was 11)--[/INDENT]
--- I'd take the subjective approach, saying, sure, if you read the histories of Rajaat's little flunkies, they'll tell you that the age of magic started with Rajaat in the Pristine Tower, since it's all about Rajaat. Other historians would use the age of magic to describe the times when there were actual wizards going around the world, affecting the course of history.
We can't afford to ignore sources, but if we pretend to be Dark Sun fundamentalists and say that we take every word literally, we'll go nuts; there are too many contradictions.
Could someone take a look at Psionic Artifacts of Athas, the entry on the swords and the first chapter (which mentions the Silencer), and tell us wheter Irikos is refered to as a Champion or not?
In the history of the scorcher, it mentions Rajaat's left hand, a warlord named Irikos. No mention of him being a champion.
I'd tend to read the word "champion" in the generic non-DS sense when reading a generic non-DS source. And if Irikos "cleansed" the orcs from Bodach, that would not literally contradict the text.
Well, you know my approach to canon. As I see it, we can't afford to ignore any of TSR's stuff on Dark Sun; we simply look at all of the sources together and form the most consistent, functional, and believable picture. Where sources disagree, we can read one narrowly or broadly to avoid a conflict (like I just did with "champion" and "cleansed") or we can say that one represents a point of view or a false belief connected with a specific agenda. For example, the sources that say that "halflings can't be wizards," I'd ascribe to the purist halfling supremacy of Rajaat and his halfling cronies. Halflings "can't" use wizardry because doing so would violate their holy idea of what a halfling is. When faced with plain examples like Nok in the Verdant Passage or that halfling Chieftain in Dragon's Crown, the totalitarian reaction would be to waffle, obfuscate, and eventually to blurt out something to the effect of "don't confuse me with the facts." :D
When we run into something truly ludicrous, for example, the WC saying that the "age of magic" started three thousand years before Rajaat displayed or taught arcane magic to anyone ---
[INDENT]--(when you think about it, that's like saying that the sexual revolution started in the 1940s, in Hugh Hefner's clost, when he was 11)--[/INDENT]
--- I'd take the subjective approach, saying, sure, if you read the histories of Rajaat's little flunkies, they'll tell you that the age of magic started with Rajaat in the Pristine Tower, since it's all about Rajaat. Other historians would use the age of magic to describe the times when there were actual wizards going around the world, affecting the course of history.
We can't afford to ignore sources, but if we pretend to be Dark Sun fundamentalists and say that we take every word literally, we'll go nuts; there are too many contradictions.
You're preaching to the wrong guy
I totally agree with all of this.I was playing the part of devil's advocate when I pointed out what the Book of Artifacts said about Irikos. To clarify my (well, devil's advocate's) comment, I totally fail to see how someone can interpret that book's mentions that Irikos is a Champion and that "he attacked Bodach after successfuly cleansing the race of the orcs" (note: not actual quote) in any other way. It would be like saying a non-DS source's mention of a "sorcerer-king" in the world of Athas refers not to an actual SK but rather to a "king who is a sorcerer"...thus maybe some bandit king or somesuch. I think such a mention of a "sorcerer-king" is pretty clear.
/end of devil's advocate ;)
Penn raised that fact above, and clarified that he wasn't referring to the DS book of psionic artifacts, but a non-DS publication by TSR known as the book of artifacts that included, among other things, some artifacts for DS. See 5 posts up. I'd forgotten about that one too.
Balican Gigolo's comment is right on cue...and shows he read the above posts...already.Here's how to sort out the warlords from the Champions:
- Jihad begins, defiler warlords rise
- Some are called Left and Right Hands (Myron and Irikos)
- Wars begin, Champions rise
- Among them Myron
So, at least one warlord became a Champion later on - Myron.
Yes, albeit their was a promotion at the power level - gaining the Champion of Rajaat PrC.
I'm of the opinion the Champion was a Green Age title given to any individually powerful warrior. And that Rajaat adopted a title that already existed.
I'm of the opinion the Champion was a Green Age title given to any individually powerful warrior. And that Rajaat adopted a title that already existed.
There's no evidence for or against, and it brings nothing relevant either way. Champions are not less or more, or differently, than what they actually are if their name is a port from an already existing type of warrior, so besides making it pretty or useful as part of a larger story of your own design, there's no point.
In the ancient wars that ravaged Athas, the city of Bodach was a great neutral power. It's armies and magicians jealously guarded the lands of the city-state while the rulers refused all offers of alliance with the warring defilers and preservers. Eventually, the great defiler warlords decided to eliminate Bodach, and a great host gathered to destroy the entire city.
The leader of this host was a human defiler and warlord named Irikos, "the left hand of Rajaat." It was Irikos's ancient duty to destroy the race of orcs, and when the last orc was no more, he turned to the conquest of all who did not stand with Rajaat's captains.
Irikos possessed a powerful weapon named the Silencer. Using the weapon, he and his host systematically destroyed the armies of Bodach and sacked the city. Still, the last and most powerful sorcerers of Bodach managed to cast a mighty spell of destruction against the defiler warlord, which blasted Irikos to ashes even as his hordes threw down Bodach with fire and sword. Only the Silencer survived.
So! With the mention of the wars between the preservers and defilers, Bodach was neutral during the Preserver Jihad. When it says that Irikos was tasked with the killing of orcs. He may be "the left hand of Rajaat", but working under Uyness of Waverly the Orc Plague. Or maybe Uyness was such a nut job, Irikos wasn't a champion but was there to keep Uyness under control and focused on the task.
[...] and when the last orc was no more, he turned to [...]".
Mmm, so unless you posit that Irikos, left hand of Rajaat and given the Silencer, worked for Uyness (Abalach-Re), one of the weakest Champions by reckoning, although, arguably, she's a Champion and he ain't, then this makes no sense.
Uyness finished off the orcs 300 years before Irikos died at Bodach, so if one goes with the theory above, then it could work.
One idea that could help with this theory would be as follow: Me and Methvezem have posited that since the defiler warlords bearing Rajaat's banner during the Jihad continued fighting that conflict well past the beggining of the Cleansing Wars, conflict during which the Champions were created, then that it's possible some of them survived the end of the Jihad and were reassigned to help the Champions. Merek the Wrong seems like such a defiler warlord - Dragon's Crown mention he's fighting the Wind Mages (a Jihad task) while taking his orders from far away Hamanu.
Irikos, such a powerful and trusty guy that Rajaat made him his left hand, might not have been Champion material after all - for whatever reason, or he refused the honor - and when he finished off some of his Jihad tasks was reassigned to helping Uyness finish off the orcs...which he did, and then was tasked to tackle Bodach.
This could work.
It also opens the door to other defiler warlords having existed. Currently there's Merek, Myron and Borys (who both became Champions several years apart), but there could have been more. Some of them might still be alive today, others magically imprisonned. To fight in the Jihad Rajaat probably confered a (relatively simple) form of immortality on those warlords that did well their job...which allowed Myron to live through the Jihad to get transformed into a Champion at the start of the Wars.
- Merovech the Magehound: immortal who survived the Jihad, reassigned under the Slayer of Elves, is thought to have died in the siege of a sorcerous elven fortress.
- Amen Thal the Devourer: also immortal and a survivor, later became general to the armies of the Orc Plague, ultimate fate unknown.
The Champion under which Amen Thal worked may eventually be changed to something else, especially if its officialy stated somewhere that Irikos fulfilled that role. Each of these guys has a minor artifact Rajaat gifted them, described in An Athasian Emporium.
Uyness finished off the orcs 300 years before Irikos died at Bodach, so if one goes with the theory above, then it could work.
Didn't double check the timeline... Oops.
The defiler warlords we imagined were...
- Merovech the Magehound: immortal who survived the Jihad, reassigned under the Slayer of Elves, is thought to have died in the siege of a sorcerous elven fortress.
- Amen Thal the Devourer: also immortal and a survivor, later became general to the armies of the Orc Plague, ultimate fate unknown.
The Champion under which Amen Thal worked may eventually be changed to something else, especially if its officialy stated somewhere that Irikos fulfilled that role. Each of these guys has a minor artifact Rajaat gifted them, described in An Athasian Emporium.
An Athasian Emporium? What's that?
The Cleansing Wars were world wide, their had to be several Warlords all over the place doing Rajaat's bidding. Not all of them were immortal. Maybe some of Borys' Kaisharga were old Cleansing Wars Warlords.
An Athasian Emporium is the project for which Jon sent out a call for proofreaders a couple of days ago. It describes hundreds of new psionic and magic items.
Albeit the kaisharga process (which the SKs developped, btw, as a replacement for the morg process...so kaishargas have not always existed and may not have been present during the Wars) renders you very powerful, psionically potent, and grants immortality of a sort....Rajaat has never been described as using this or a similar undead transformational process to ensure the long life of his servants.
He developped the Champion process, and may have created a simple immortality process, since in CBtSS Dregoth is said to have confered immortality on one of his servants during the Wars, so a good explanation for that is that Rajaat gave Dregoth the process so he could in turn give long life to his own underlings (albeith Dregoth may have developped that immortality process on his own from before, since he is said to have already been immortal and fighting the giants before Rajaat made him a Champion).
It leads me to think that many of the defiler warlords of the Jihad were rather unimaginative and poorlt capable - albeit powerful - and thus Rajaat did not allow them to live longer than normal lifespans. Those that were especially capable - Myron, Merek, Irikos - he made immortal so they could live and fight another day...all until the end of the Jihad and beyond, at least for those that survived. Merovech and Amen Thal are supposed to be long dead, Merovech having died in the assault of an elven fortress, ... but maybe he's a prisonner of a magical trap, or his essence was imprisonned in an object, now buried under mud, waiting for the unwary to free its prisonner....
(A Champion Lindsay Lohan with her Warlord Stewart Black Adder)
Uyness' crazy Badna 'spin the wheel of fate' religion and inability to manage Raam would indicate a need for an administrator in her day to day affairs.
You don't need to be a genius, or a great tactician, to be made a Champion and lead an army to victory. You need only surround yourself with capable tacticians. Irikos could have been one such person for Uyness. I imagine that intelligence, albeit a prerequisite for being a psion and wizard, is not what Rajaat sought, but rather motive that would carry the would-be Champion all through the wars. Rajaat chose Manu to become the next Troll Scorcher when he saw that Myron and his army had turned the young man into a killer who would never stop until the last troll would be dead. He could have picked a replacement for Myron from among other people, but he chose the one guy with a powerful reason to want troll dead.
Uyness must have had, besides her shortcomings, such a powerful reason.
So Uyness could have been just a weak tactician, but I think that it is much more fun (and also fitting with a non-omnipotent Rajaat) to have Rajaat sort of stuck with her. He was looking for a Champion to replace her, but couldn't find someone with that mystical predisposition AND an unwavering and eternal hatred of Orcs. So Rajaat assigned his left hand to guide and direct her so she would be more effective. Once Uyness completed her task, Rajaat allowed her to be in semi-retirement keeping her as a resource he could tap on occasion. Where Irikos was still on the job and moved onto other things, like the sacking of Bodach!
1) Rajaat started formulating the Cleansing Wars prior to the Jihad - that was simply the 'first step' towards the CW.
2) When Rajaat started the Jihad, he wasn't yet sure about the whole Champion thing - he was still working on the spells, deciding what to do with them in the long run, etc.
3) Irikos and Borys were two of his generals during the Jihad...but Irikos wasn't a psionicist/defiler as, at that time, Rajaat hadn't come to the conclusion that what he really needed for the CW's were individuals such as that.
4) Rajaat finalizes his Champion spell, as well as the "full game plan" for the CW, and realizes that he *has* to go with psionicist/defilers.
5) Since Irikos doesn't meet the qualities for Champion status, he is relegated to being the "mastermind" behind Uyness' war against the orcs; Rajaat realizes that she meets the requirements, is powerful enough to at least play the part of a Champion, and with Irikos working directly for her will serve as a good pawn.
6) Irikos is eventually killed, and as of his death Rajaat still hadn't come up with a good solution to his "Champion problem."
7) IIRC Hamanu was created after Irikos died - if that's true, then it's because Rajaat finally creates his "Champion Mk. II" spell, which doesn't require a psionicist/defiler to begin with, and so he uses this spell to create Hamanu. This is also his "solution" for what to do with his Champions once their job is finished - Hamanu will kill them off, as per his "design," leaving him as the only Champion Rajaat will have to deal with personally.
But a thing one needs to remember is that Hamanu was not just a replacement for Myron but a total newcomer, i.e. he had no levels in wizard or psion, yet in a single day Rajaat made him a Champion and he learned all that he ought to know by the time about 10 minutes had passed after he was made, more after he absorbed the essence of Myron, learning all that that Champion knew.
...meaning, if Rajaat really wants to, he can make you into whatever he wants, giving you class levels where you had none.
He was looking for a Champion to replace her, but couldn't find someone with that mystical predisposition AND an unwavering and eternal hatred of Orcs.
This how I view Rajaat would have selected his Champions. Being adept at magic and psionics wasn't enough for Rajaat to transform a person into one of his Chosen. The being in question would need a deep hatred towards his assigned race. I'm sure each of the would-be Champions had personal reasons to motivate them to commit genocide other than the promise of ultimate power. I’m certain that a unquenchable thrist for vengeance a factor in Rajaat’s selection process.
Mmm, so unless you posit that Irikos, left hand of Rajaat and given the Silencer, worked for Uyness (Abalach-Re), one of the weakest Champions by reckoning, although, arguably, she's a Champion and he ain't, then this makes no sense.
Uyness finished off the orcs 300 years before Irikos died at Bodach, so if one goes with the theory above, then it could work.
One idea that could help with this theory would be as follow: Me and Methvezem have posited that since the defiler warlords bearing Rajaat's banner during the Jihad continued fighting that conflict well past the beggining of the Cleansing Wars, conflict during which the Champions were created, then that it's possible some of them survived the end of the Jihad and were reassigned to help the Champions. Merek the Wrong seems like such a defiler warlord - Dragon's Crown mention he's fighting the Wind Mages (a Jihad task) while taking his orders from far away Hamanu.
Agreed that Merek the Wrong is a warlord, and that fighting the wind mages is a jihad task, and yet Hamanu wasn't born until the last couple King's Ages of the Cleansing Wars ... The LC history puts that event at the very last year of the Cleansing Wars, the only time window after Hamanu had destroyed the trolls but before the rebellion.
Its possible Irikos had none or not enough of the requirements necessary to be made a Champion. (Fluff-wise, that is, since mechanically the template has no requirements.)
But a thing one needs to remember is that Hamanu was not just a replacement for Myron but a total newcomer, i.e. he had no levels in wizard or psion, yet in a single day Rajaat made him a Champion and he learned all that he ought to know by the time about 10 minutes had passed after he was made, more after he absorbed the essence of Myron, learning all that that Champion knew.
...meaning, if Rajaat really wants to, he can make you into whatever he wants, giving you class levels where you had none.
The less extravagant explanation, and I think more consistent with the text, is that Rajaat used some sort of psychic fusion, like you said, making Hamanu absorb "the essence of Myron, learning all that that Champion knew." That's not just "giving you class levels." That's fusing you with another character. Powerful yes, but not omnipotent.
This how I view Rajaat would have selected his Champions. Being adept at magic and psionics wasn't enough for Rajaat to transform a person into one of his Chosen. The being in question would need a deep hatred towards his assigned race. I'm sure each of the would-be Champions had personal reasons to motivate them to commit genocide other than the promise of ultimate power. I’m certain that a unquenchable thrist for vengeance a factor in Rajaat’s selection process.
Myron didn't seem to have a deep and abiding hatred for Trolls, just a general sadism towards everything. As Andropinis, Albeorn lets elves hold positions of nobility in Balic. (see Veiled Alliance). I don't think hatred was a prerequisite.
A thread from months past got into this Irikos debate, so let me rehash my "sorting it out" response from that thread. Basically, my theory goes like this:
1) Rajaat started formulating the Cleansing Wars prior to the Jihad - that was simply the 'first step' towards the CW..
At first glance, I thought that was obvious, but now I'm not so sure. Certainly he planned a great war, to exterminate all the races. Did he specifically plan to have humans cleanse all the others? I don't know. He had a war along ideological lines, and then another along racial lines. I suspect he was just looking for new sets of fault lines to appear that he could use.
2) When Rajaat started the Jihad, he wasn't yet sure about the whole Champion thing - he was still working on the spells, deciding what to do with them in the long run, etc.
He might not have settled on humans yet. There may have been non-human warlords.
3) Irikos and Borys were two of his generals during the Jihad...but Irikos wasn't a psionicist/defiler as, at that time, Rajaat hadn't come to the conclusion that what he really needed for the CW's were individuals such as that.
Do we even know that Irikos was human? :D
4) Rajaat finalizes his Champion spell, as well as the "full game plan" for the CW, and realizes that he *has* to go with psionicist/defilers.
Why did he *have* to?
5) Since Irikos doesn't meet the qualities for Champion status, he is relegated to being the "mastermind" behind Uyness' war against the orcs; Rajaat realizes that she meets the requirements, is powerful enough to at least play the part of a Champion, and with Irikos working directly for her will serve as a good pawn.
Alternately, maybe he wasn't human, and if he hadn't died, he'd have been disposed of. If you think it's odd that Rajaat might have had non-human warlords before announcing his war against non-humans, then consider Hitler's shift in what historians call "the night of the long knives," murdering his own "left hand," Roehm and a number of other loyal nazi officers, and then issuing the the extermination order known as "paragraph 175."
Or it is the fact that the hatred was put aside after the rebellion. After that, what's the point?
What's the point to hatred? :D
If hatred was a prerequisite in order to *become* a champion, then I'd think it would generally continue after the rebellion. If hatred was something that just came out of the job, the dedication to exterminate, then it would make sense that the rebellion would vitiate the hatred.
It just seems bizarre that Andropinis' Balic would be the Tablelands city *most* tolerant of elves, the only place you see an elf in a position of nobility.
The less extravagant explanation, and I think more consistent with the text, is that Rajaat used some sort of psychic fusion, like you said, making Hamanu absorb "the essence of Myron, learning all that that Champion knew." That's not just "giving you class levels." That's fusing you with another character. Powerful yes, but not omnipotent.
Two things to consider:
- In Abbey's universe all of the Champions are like Hamanu, i.e. they were dragons from the get go, and proceed along the metamorphosis without use of spells. That can be interpreted as meaning he's unique, if you want to marry RaFoaDK with the rest of the setting, but within RaFoaDK itself that is not the case. Hamanu has one uber power unique to him, but otherwise is pretty much the same as the other Champions.
- Hamanu clealry says he knew nothing of magic by the time the Lens spit him out at the top of the Tower, and was a master of magic by the time his feet had carried him down that very Tower, one can imagine about 10 minutes later. Only about half an hour after that did Hamanu kill Myron.
Outside of what I just said, your fusion idea is quite good and matches what Hamanu did to Myron, within the universe of RaFoaDK. Further, if one tries to marry that book with the canon of the rest of the setting - forced to make concessions - it may be the perfect explanation to explain away how Manu - something like a 5th level Warrior - managed to accomplish his Champion tasks. (5th level Warrior + CR of the Champion of Rajaat template won't protect you from being cleaved in two by Windreaver.) So if the 5th level Warrior Champion suddenly acquired all the levels of Myron...
Powerful yes, but not omnipotent.
I never considered it omnipotence, only a very high DC epic spell, mitigated by the Tower and Lens, used to transfer XP from one character to another. This way Rajaat sacrificed, say...30 levels of his 200+ wizard and psion levels, and gave them to Hamanu.
Myron didn't seem to have a deep and abiding hatred for Trolls, just a general sadism towards everything. As Andropinis, Albeorn lets elves hold positions of nobility in Balic. (see Veiled Alliance). I don't think hatred was a prerequisite.
Not hatred, but motive. A reason for killing them. That reason may be hate for one, and necessity for another. As long as the reason isn't hate, one can still hold members of the enemy race in honor, like Andropinis does with elves. I imagine many of the Champions respected truces and parleys, and declarations of single combat, that the enemy proposed. Borys was nearly killed by Rkard in single combat while both armies watched.
What's the point to hatred? :D
If hatred was a prerequisite in order to *become* a champion, then I'd think it would generally continue after the rebellion. If hatred was something that just came out of the job, the dedication to exterminate, then it would make sense that the rebellion would vitiate the hatred.
It just seems bizarre that Andropinis' Balic would be the Tablelands city *most* tolerant of elves, the only place you see an elf in a position of nobility.
My point was: after the rebellion, when you realize that you would have ended up in the same position as those you were cleansing, I think that the paradigm shift would be enough to make the Champions give up their hatred. Plus, with the new Dragon running around, it makes it rather difficult to continue the Wars. That took a century to calm down, and after that... What's the point of continuing the hatred?
He might not have settled on humans yet. There may have been non-human warlords.
His studies showed or hinted that humans made the best wizards (as the lore goes), so even then he may have used human servants. But indeed nothing's to stop him from having used other races, or even a few undead during that period.
A really weird setup would be for a non-human warlord, made immortal, and become totally loyal to Rajaat and any task his master might wish to be done...forced by his loyalty to help Rajaat's Champions to exterminate all non-human races, his own included.
After all, Sacha and Wyan were made aware of Rajaat's true plans for humanity and the Champions, yet they betrayed their fellow and attempted to assist their master achieving his goals. That's dedication. Of course those two probably were a bit crazy to start with, but no matter...
My point was: after the rebellion, when you realize that you would have ended up in the same position as those you were cleansing, I think that the paradigm shift would be enough to make the Champions give up their hatred. Plus, with the new Dragon running around, it makes it rather difficult to continue the Wars. That took a century to calm down, and after that... What's the point of continuing the hatred?
My view as well. Once they realized what Rajaat's true plans were the Champions put aside that hatred in order to deal with their master. The Champions may still harbor their hatred against their chosen race, but choose not to act on it out of defiance.
His studies showed or hinted that humans made the best wizards (as the lore goes), so even then he may have used human servants.
Yes they did. I'm saying that when he finished those studies, that he began the Cleansing Wars.
But indeed nothing's to stop him from having used other races, or even a few undead during that period.
A really weird setup would be for a non-human warlord, made immortal, and become totally loyal to Rajaat and any task his master might wish to be done...forced by his loyalty to help Rajaat's Champions to exterminate all non-human races, his own included.
Doesn't even have to be loyalty. See Tythian, Rajaat's latest lackey. He knows what Rajaat's about, and still scurries to him.
After all, Sacha and Wyan were made aware of Rajaat's true plans for humanity and the Champions, yet they betrayed their fellow and attempted to assist their master achieving his goals. That's dedication. Of course those two probably were a bit crazy to start with, but no matter..
Nobody's perfect ;)
My point was: after the rebellion, when you realize that you would have ended up in the same position as those you were cleansing, I think that the paradigm shift would be enough to make the Champions give up their hatred.
Not all of them. Hatred isn't that flexible, isn't that amenable to paradigm shifts. I'm partial to Vonnegut's description in Mother Night of the cuckoo clock in hell.
Hatred doesn't motivate Hamanu to offer Windreaver the option of living out his life without breeding. Hatred doesn't begin to describe Yoram's bizarre behavior either. Borys seems to have been a true hater, but his little Dragon catharsis could explain his shift.
Not all of them. Hatred isn't that flexible, isn't that amenable to paradigm shifts. I'm partial to Vonnegut's description in Mother Night of the cuckoo clock in hell.
Hatred doesn't motivate Hamanu to offer Windreaver the option of living out his life without breeding. Hatred doesn't begin to describe Yoram's bizarre behavior either. Borys seems to have been a true hater, but his little Dragon catharsis could explain his shift.
Just to clarify, I am not saying that they all lost their hatred and became nice, what I am saying is that after they realized why that hatred was used by Rajaat, and after holding the cities from the Dragon, they would have had a century to put an end to thinking of the Cleansing Wars. Someone here on the boards wrote something that was a journal entry right after the Rebellion, talking about the emergence of the Dragon and the wish they had that the Champions would put the thing down. After all that, and with the continued threat of Rajaat escaping his prison, I don't think they could afford to hold on to their hatred. They may not be the sanest, most rational individuals on athas, but they are intelligent enough to realize that they need to put that aside for the sake of survival. Now that they could do it, only Dregoth seems willing to go that route (with his dray and all).
Not hatred, but motive. A reason for killing them. That reason may be hate for one, and necessity for another. As long as the reason isn't hate, one can still hold members of the enemy race in honor, like Andropinis does with elves. I imagine many of the Champions respected truces and parleys, and declarations of single combat, that the enemy proposed. Borys was nearly killed by Rkard in single combat while both armies watched.
Exactly. That's why it doesn't need to be a prerequisite. If it's simply motive, well, Rajaat seemed perfectly capable of providing the motive. Yoram seemed to do it out of fear, which is why he was stretching it out. Greed, power, fear, or in Hamau's case, a need to put an end to the fighting the only way he knew how.
Its possible Irikos had none or not enough of the requirements necessary to be made a Champion. (Fluff-wise, that is, since mechanically the template has no requirements.)
But a thing one needs to remember is that Hamanu was not just a replacement for Myron but a total newcomer, i.e. he had no levels in wizard or psion, yet in a single day Rajaat made him a Champion and he learned all that he ought to know by the time about 10 minutes had passed after he was made, more after he absorbed the essence of Myron, learning all that that Champion knew.
...meaning, if Rajaat really wants to, he can make you into whatever he wants, giving you class levels where you had none.
Weeeeelllll....that's not necessarily true; Hamanu was created what, 1000 or 1500 years after the original Champions? That's a lot of time for Rajaat to have created a new, much more powerful Champion spell than the original one used. Just because he did it to Hamanu doesn't necessarily mean that he was capable of doing it to the original Champions. Something that needs to be considered here is the fact that Rajaat took millenia to develop magic, improve on it, etc. Given that he "remade" himself while trapped away in the Hollow, Rajaat appears to be an individual who isn't at all omnipotent nor even extremely powerful due to some intrinsic aspect of his nature, but is instead so powerful because of his neverending thirst for knowledge.
At first glance, I thought that was obvious, but now I'm not so sure. Certainly he planned a great war, to exterminate all the races. Did he specifically plan to have humans cleanse all the others? I don't know. He had a war along ideological lines, and then another along racial lines. I suspect he was just looking for new sets of fault lines to appear that he could use.
...
He might not have settled on humans yet. There may have been non-human warlords.
...
Do we even know that Irikos was human? :D
...
Alternately, maybe he wasn't human, and if he hadn't died, he'd have been disposed of. If you think it's odd that Rajaat might have had non-human warlords before announcing his war against non-humans, then consider Hitler's shift in what historians call "the night of the long knives," murdering his own "left hand," Roehm and a number of other loyal nazi officers, and then issuing the the extermination order known as "paragraph 175."
I'm pretty sure there are several statements, scattered amongst the various books, that explains that Rajaat did indeed decide that humans were the ones to do the cleansing, that he hated the Rebirth races in general, including humanity (...but they were the best choice for his war, so he went with them), etc.
I'm not sure if there is anything that specifically says he used nothing but human troops, although I think it's a lot more likely based on what we know. Now, that's in reference to the leaders - as far as the rank-and-file troops are concerned that would have been up to the Champions to decide. But for Rajaat, I think I'd rather make the assumption that Irikos and the rest of his "top dogs" were human than to leave it open that they could have been from any race.
His studies showed or hinted that humans made the best wizards (as the lore goes), so even then he may have used human servants. But indeed nothing's to stop him from having used other races, or even a few undead during that period.
A really weird setup would be for a non-human warlord, made immortal, and become totally loyal to Rajaat and any task his master might wish to be done...forced by his loyalty to help Rajaat's Champions to exterminate all non-human races, his own included.
After all, Sacha and Wyan were made aware of Rajaat's true plans for humanity and the Champions, yet they betrayed their fellow and attempted to assist their master achieving his goals. That's dedication. Of course those two probably were a bit crazy to start with, but no matter...
I agree with you - namely that it'd be "really weird" for Rajaat to have done that.
Rajaat appears to be an individual who isn't at all omnipotent nor even extremely powerful due to some intrinsic aspect of his nature, but is instead so powerful because of his neverending thirst for knowledge.
The all those undead out there that managed to beat death due to a tremendous thirst for knowledge that sustained them in death ought to be really special indeed, while they are in fact ordinary.
Rajaat is especially powerful, from the start.
The high-DC epic spell I was suggesting, able to transfer the caster's XP unto the target, might indeed have been developped by Rajaat only at around the time he made Hamanu, explaining why he had to teach the other Champions and not Hamanu. Still, no one alive on Athas besides Rajaat can cast a DC 100+ epic spell, which is what this spell would be (... since the Epic Boards are at a loss as to how to make this spell and what it would entail).
I agree with you - namely that it'd be "really weird" for Rajaat to have done that.
Not what I was suggesting.
All and any tools are good versus the preservers during the Jihad, so Rajaat might have used a non-human as an efficient tool to eradicate the wizards. Later on, as the idea of the Wars became clearer and clearer in Rajaat's mind, he knew all non-humans - if any - under his service would need to no longer be a part of his future plans....but what if one such non-human insisted on continuing helping Rajaat, renouncing race and past allegiances for servitude?
Reminds me of Darth Vador, former Jedi now serving a Sith Lord, and employed to hunt down and exterminate his former kin, which he did.
- The spell that gave class levels to Hamanu, since he gained all that knowledge before he killed Myron.
- The spell that - we can only imagine - Rajaat cast on Hamanu and that allowed him to use, like you said, a special version of fusion, which gave even further abilties and knowledge to Hamanu when he killed Myron.
The all those undead out there that managed to beat death due to a tremendous thirst for knowledge that sustained them in death ought to be really special indeed, while they are in fact ordinary.
Rajaat is especially powerful, from the start.
The high-DC epic spell I was suggesting, able to transfer the caster's XP unto the target, might indeed have been developped by Rajaat only at around the time he made Hamanu, explaining why he had to teach the other Champions and not Hamanu. Still, no one alive on Athas besides Rajaat can cast a DC 100+ epic spell, which is what this spell would be (... since the Epic Boards are at a loss as to how to make this spell and what it would entail).
On the contrary, most of the SKs could cast a 100+ Epic level spell if they thought about it.
Take a 33rd level SK ==> spellcraft of 36.
+30 spellcraft bonus from a skill-enhancing item.
+30 or so through their epic-enhanced intelligence (which IIRC you said was one of the least abusive things you could do).
+3 potentially for Skill Focus (spellcraft)
+10 potentially for Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft)
Then who knows just what bonuses you get from the Pristine Tower and/or from the dark lens.
They might even toss in a circumstance bonus for an allied bard performance. :D
Besides, there's nothing to say that Myron's levels stacked with Hamanu's. Might simply have replaced them. That would explain why the SKs would not bother to develop such a ridiculously difficult and expensive spell.
Here's my challenge.
Who can design the single most *useful* epic psionic power for a sorcerer-king, with the following parameters:
- Quickened power
- No co-casters.
- Psicraft DC 55 or lower.
- Spell that you cast on an enemy or enemies.
- Feel free to assume that the SK happens to be of the one psionic discipline that you find convenient for this power.
This contest will sit open for 5 hours after the posting timestamp of this post.
By most useful, I mean the power that an SK would be the most likely to use in response to an attack.
The reason that I chose epic power rather than spell is that powers skip the idea of having a spell memorized, so it's easier to guage usefulness.
On the contrary, most of the SKs could cast a 100+ Epic level spell if they thought about it.
........
Lol. Well, replace the 100+ number with whatever is needed for my example to be worth a damn then.
Besides, there's nothing to say that Myron's levels stacked with Hamanu's. Might simply have replaced them. That would explain why the SKs would not bother to develop such a ridiculously difficult and expensive spell.
I'll remind you you are the one who suggested this process might be what happened in the novel (i.e. Myron fused with Hamanu, merging the stats of two characters into one).
Lol. Well, replace the 100+ number with whatever is needed for my example to be worth a damn then.
I'll remind you you are the one who suggested this process might be what happened in the novel (i.e. Myron fused with Hamanu, merging the stats of two characters into one).
I suggested that Rajaat might have done that. I certainly did not suggest that it would be useful to stat such a spell, or that any SK would bother to work it up. There's an obvious reason why such a spell would be useful to Rajaat -- worth almost any expense. I can't see anyone else who had such an array of epic flunkies that he'd need to switch and replace. Not even Dregoth does that. Since when are we statting Rajaat's spells?
Is there such a thing as an epic psionic power though? Sure, there's psionic enchantments, but those are a blending of magic and the way and not purely psionic.
The Epic level handbook says there is such thing as epic psionic powers. See page 102, where it lists the seeds by discipline. For some screwy reason they put Life in there.
Doesn't have to feel like a psionic power in essence -- another way to say it is that I'm just asking for the spell that you most wish you had prepared before your enemies attacked you.
For example, say you're Dregoth. When you come back as a Kaisharga, mad as hell at all those fellow-champions that killed you, the first thing you say is, "I could have taken those louses if only I had memorized ___________ " :D
CONE OF COINS
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 55
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: Swift Action
Range: 300 ft.
Area: 80 ft cone
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 495000 cp; 19800 XP. Seed: Transform DC 21; creature to inanimate object (+10); cast as swift action (+28); change from target to area (40 foot cone) (+10); +100% area (+4); dismissible by caster (+2); Mitigating Factors: Burn 1900 XP during casting time (-24).
This spell turns all creatures in the area to thin ceramic disks, approximately the width of a coin. The face of each creature is imprinted on the face of each coin, while the caster's standard is engraved on the other side. The size of the coin (other than width) corresponds to the creature's original size.
As a standard action, the caster can touch any of the coins and transform it back into the original creature.
I suggested that Rajaat might have done that. I certainly did not suggest that it would be useful to stat such a spell, or that any SK would bother to work it up. There's an obvious reason why such a spell would be useful to Rajaat -- worth almost any expense. I can't see anyone else who had such an array of epic flunkies that he'd need to switch and replace. Not even Dregoth does that. Since when are we statting Rajaat's spells?
Where did you get the idea that I suggested that you suggested that "it would be useful to stat such a spell"? Its not because I put a vague DC on it, which was really an attempt to say "only Rajaat can cast a spell with such an insane DC", that it means I suggested that.
We're not stating Rajaat's spells, we're trying to figure out what he did and how, so that a few lines of text in LC and other products don't generate raised eyebrows from fans who are well versed in the various texts.
Explosive Rending
Psychoportation [Teleportation]
Spellcraft DC: 55
Components: Visual
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: 300 ft.
Target: Targeted living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial and Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 495000 cp, 10 days, 19800 XP; Seed: Transport (DC 27), Slay (DC 25); transport unwilling creature (+4), touch to target (+4); cast as swift action (+28), 20 ft. radius area effect on failed save (ad-hoc: +8); Mitigating Factors: Seed within primary discipline (-5), backlash 10d6 damage (-10), expend 2600 XP at time of manifestation (-26).
This epic power causes the victim’s body to be violently ripped apart, their various limbs, organs and bones each pulled in a different direction. A target of up to 80 HD must make a Fortitude saving throw or die; those saving instead take 3d6+20 points of damage (which itself may cause death). The body of any creature killed by this power is explosively scattered over a wide area, preventing raise dead from working on them (although Resurrection and other higher-level spells that do not require an entire body will work).
The explosive force and “shrapnel” caused by a creature that failed its saving throw is powerful enough to damage those nearby. Everything with a 20-foot radius of the victim takes piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage (consider 1/3 of the total damage to be of each kind for purposes of damage reduction) equal to 1d6 x the target creature’s Constitution score. Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves for half damage.
No damage done to creature near the exploding victim due to bone shrapnel an what not?
LOL darnit I was hoping no one would catch that - I just didn't want to spend the time figuring out how to do that. ;)
Let me think about it and revise.
Edit:
Okay, I added in an explosion effect. For those who care, the +8 ad-hoc bonus is based on +6 for a 20-ft. radius AoE (it's +10 to change from touch to area, but since I already added +4 to change it from touch to target I just gave that a +6 total) and the remaining +2 comes from the fact that these rules are based on the Intellect Bomb power from Complete Psionic, which by itself would be a DC 27 modifier...but since this effect is directly tied to the Slay seed (at DC 25) I just added the difference to get the final ad-hoc modifier.
Maybe I should finally write up my "Explosive Rending" epic spell/power...
Please do, we'll soon need it...
Please do, we'll soon need it...
Done, see above. :P