Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 greyorm Nov 26, 2006 20:52:33	I know I'm not posting much anymore, however, I was recently pointed to this thread over on Story Games and thought I should share the awesomeness. The thread is about the DarkSun setting and making variations upon it. It's a long thread, but there are so many cool ideas therein it is worth a full read.
#2 ruhl-than_sage Nov 26, 2006 21:49:17	I know I'm not posting much anymore, however, I was recently pointed to this thread over on Story Games and thought I should share the awesomeness. The thread is about the DarkSun setting and making variations upon it. It's a long thread, but there are so many cool ideas therein it is worth a full read. Very interesting, though I will have to finish reading it later. I have to agree that the system is the biggest thing holding the setting back. I find that D&D games start to fall apart in the higher levels due to lack of elegance (overcomplex rule sets and calculations). Even more so then that issue which is a problem for any D&D game, is the lack of realism in the system, which is epitomized by a completely abstract combat system that doesn't even include an injury system. IMO if you really want to see a system that provides a sense of desperate struggle for survival (which is supposed to be a big part of DS) then you need to check out Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (not the miniatures game, but the role playing game). I'm seriously considering adapting the system to run DS.
#3 greyorm Nov 28, 2006 19:57:29	Very interesting, though I will have to finish reading it later. I have to agree that the system is the biggest thing holding the setting back. I find that D&D games start to fall apart in the higher levels due to lack of elegance (overcomplex rule sets and calculations). Even more so then that issue which is a problem for any D&D game, is the lack of realism in the system, which is epitomized by a completely abstract combat system that doesn't even include an injury system. I agree with you about the problem with the current D&D system when it hits higher levels. Really, the fun factor decreases past 9th-12th level, right around when you start getting to some really cool abilities and spells and such, too. But I'm having trouble parsing that last sentence. Do you mean the lack of realism is bad for any D&D game (which I would disagree with), or stating that the high-level problem is a problem for any D&D game, and realism is a problem for DS specifically (due to the stated nature of DS as deadly)? I'm with you up to that point, but there's a sticky point here we can talk about: "realism" is a term that everyone uses, but which doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Do we mean "realism" in terms of results, or in terms of expressing mechanical functions? See, normally when we think about realism, we think of complex rule-sets that mechanically describe the momentary physics of the world, but that's not necessary: there are any number of wargame scenario systems developed by the armed forces that rely on highly abstracted mechanics but which produce very accurate/realistic results. For me, the speed of play is important, which is why I dislike mechanically complex, chart-based rule sets. IMO if you really want to see a system that provides a sense of desperate struggle for survival (which is supposed to be a big part of DS) then you need to check out Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (not the miniatures game, but the role playing game). Very true. D&D, given the nature of its rules, is epic/adventurous fantasy structured specifically for the dungeon crawl scenario -- which it does very well, and which DS is not really made for -- but I have heard that WHFRPG is much more dark-and-gritty of a system. I've never had the chance to play it, however. The Riddle of Steel would also be a good fit, though: very realistic combat system, also very deadly. Unfortunately, I'm not sure about the current owners; things have really gone downhill since Jake sold the property. Sorcerer might be a fun mechanic set to use. It would certainly make conflict dangerous enough, though I'd have to think of some way to rewrite the Humanity mechanic, since DS isn't about power and its consequences, but what you would do to survive. Hrm...
#4 thebrax Nov 30, 2006 21:43:41	I'd take such talk seriously from an eccentric billionaire, but otherwise it's not going to happen.
#5 greyorm Dec 01, 2006 20:23:27	I'd take such talk seriously from an eccentric billionaire, but otherwise it's not going to happen. Er...what? What isn't going to happen? The bake sale? MY GODS, NO! I NEED MY LEMON-FILLED BISMARKS!!!! *sob* But seriously, I cannot parse your comment because I don't think we're talking about anything that requires either money or eccentricity. Please explain or Vogons will destroy your planet and steal all its baked goods (not necessarily in that order, though possibly).
#6 ruhl-than_sage Dec 01, 2006 20:45:57	But I'm having trouble parsing that last sentence. Do you mean the lack of realism is bad for any D&D game (which I would disagree with), or stating that the high-level problem is a problem for any D&D game, and realism is a problem for DS specifically (due to the stated nature of DS as deadly)? The later: the high level problem is a problem for any D&D game, but the realism issue is specifically for DS. I'm with you up to that point, but there's a sticky point here we can talk about: "realism" is a term that everyone uses, but which doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. Do we mean "realism" in terms of results, or in terms of expressing mechanical functions? I'm talking about realism in terms of results, not really in how those results are determined. I don't really see how any RPG could capture that sort of realism. See, normally when we think about realism, we think of complex rule-sets that mechanically describe the momentary physics of the world, but that's not necessary: there are any number of wargame scenario systems developed by the armed forces that rely on highly abstracted mechanics but which produce very accurate/realistic results. I don't really agree with your opening assertion here.... I normally think of what I percieve directly in the world around me rather then advanced scientific principles and esoteric ways of rigidly defining the world. For me, the speed of play is important, which is why I dislike mechanically complex, chart-based rule sets. I generally agree; the WHFRP rules are much more streamlined then the D&D ones and much more realistic on several different levels. There are charts for a few select things, but they are well worth their inclusion for the level interest and dynamism that they bring to the game.
#7 greyorm Dec 02, 2006 17:32:32	I'm talking about realism in terms of results, not really in how those results are determined. I don't really see how any RPG could capture that sort of realism. Let me see if I can explain my meaning better: many RPG designers (or tweakers) try to treat the mechanics of the system as the mechanics of the world, instead of as a means to an end. They try to use the mechanics to model "what is happening, realistically" and even "in detail" and call that "realism" instead of modelling just the results more realistically. Take a look at any number of D&D tweaks that attempt to accomplish this: armor and weapon damage, bonuses or penalties to movement/combat based on every minor circumstance, AC differences against different weapon types, removing classes to model skills and learning, hits on body locations and specifically crippling wounds, etc. This is what is meant by designers trying to express realism through the the game's mechanical functions, layering on more complexity in an attempt to define what is happening more accurately at each moment, usually out of the belief that this is the only or best way to produce more "realistic" results. I don't really agree with your opening assertion here.... I normally think of what I percieve directly in the world around me rather then advanced scientific principles and esoteric ways of rigidly defining the world. Actually, I meant "...when many game designers/players think of using 'realism' in an RPG..." and in reference to points about how and why rules end up being designed (as above), not in general terms. That was sloppy writing on my part. I generally agree; the WHFRP rules are much more streamlined then the D&D ones and much more realistic on several different levels. There are charts for a few select things, but they are well worth their inclusion for the level interest and dynamism that they bring to the game. I've never had a chance to look at it in any depth. I wonder if I should pick the book up...though given the amount of gaming I'm doing these days, it would probably be a needless expense. What are the high points of the system, in your opinion?
#8 thebrax Dec 02, 2006 20:49:25	Er...what? What isn't going to happen? The bake sale? MY GODS, NO! I NEED MY LEMON-FILLED BISMARKS!!!! *sob* But seriously, I cannot parse your comment because I don't think we're talking about anything that requires either money or eccentricity. Please explain or Vogons will destroy your planet and steal all its baked goods (not necessarily in that order, though possibly). I'm saying that having been through the process of writing a rules adaptation for Dark Sun, and having seen other DS adaptations get loudly proclaimed and then fall by the wayside, I'm fairly confident that the only way that we're going to see anything other than one DM's home-brew version of DS-Gurps or DS-White Wolf or DS-[insert whatever] is if some rich guy buys the license and hires a crew to do it. There's a lot more work involved than most people realize.
#9 ruhl-than_sage Dec 02, 2006 21:35:42	I'm saying that having been through the process of writing a rules adaptation for Dark Sun, and having seen other DS adaptations get loudly proclaimed and then fall by the wayside, I'm fairly confident that the only way that we're going to see anything other than one DM's home-brew version of DS-Gurps or DS-White Wolf or DS-[insert whatever] is if some rich guy buys the license and hires a crew to do it. There's a lot more work involved than most people realize. It is a lot of work.
#10 ruhl-than_sage Dec 02, 2006 21:46:19	Ok, I get what you are saying, Raven. I've never had a chance to look at it in any depth. I wonder if I should pick the book up...though given the amount of gaming I'm doing these days, it would probably be a needless expense. What are the high points of the system, in your opinion? You only need two dice to play because the system is based around percentile checks and d10 damage rolls. Injury and healing is very gritty and realistic, but not overly burdensome. It is a combination of incremental expirience purchases (like white-wolf) and class/level based (like D&D). The Career system (kind of like classes) is setup in such a way as to instantly grant greater three-dimensionality to characters. Morality is what you make of it and not defined clearly by the system. Magic is dangerous to the user. All systems are results orienteed and there is very little complexity to worry about when running a game.