Or maybe the pristine tower.
Or maybe the black.
Or maybe leaching it from the SKs.
Or maybe .... maybe .... pzzzzft !
:P
The powers exhibited by Rajaat could well have been from a combination or sources.
f.
I tend to think that while he was imprisoned, he had his servants work on making a pact with the Paraelemental plane of Rain -- after all, Rain is the one Paraelement that is, well, not doing so well. And Rajaat is a being of considerable power -- so it could have effectively "joined" with him, granting him significant power to draw upon. The Cerulean Storm could be the results of that "alliance".
That's my take, at least as far as any (para)elemental connection goes. Otherwise I think it was a combination of psionics and especially his connection to the Black.
On the other hand, I don't recall him really *doing* anything that was outright magical/psionic in nature, at least in a "manifesting powers/casting spells" sorta way. The separation of body and soul appears to have been done prior to his release, and banishing Andropinis to the Black was likely similar to how Shadow Giants can pull someone into the Black. Sure, he was creating his body and flooding the whole place with water, but all of that - IMO - was an aspect of the newfound power(s) and, as Xlorep states, some sort of elemental connection. He's basically a god at this point in time, so I'm more inclined to believe that the storm, transmutation of structures, etc. "just happens" because of his presence.
The Obsidian Plains were an experiment-gone-wrong with tapping power from the elemental planes. Although Rajaat didn't work on that project, he knew what was going on and I'm sure was quite interested in the results. Since then he's had several thousand years to contemplate the "bad" parts of that experiment as well as the "good" parts. So, perhaps the flooding, cloud-body, and storm are all, in essence, the result of Rajaat having bound himself to the paraelemental plane of Rain (or possibly just Water, since IIRC the paraelements weren't something that Denning had in mind when he wrote the PP) - using a "refined" and obviously modified version of the spell(s) that originally flooded Athas with magma.
Now, to posit a far-fetched yet intriguing, related idea:
Could the "Age" of Athas (Blue Age, Green Age, etc.) be, in some strange metaphysical way, a direct result of the balance between the elemental planes as they "connect" to Athas? In other words, the Blue Age was the Blue Age not simply because "that's the way it was," but because Athas' connection to the plane of Water was extremely strong, while the rest of the elemental planes had little connection. With this theory, things such as the Brown Tide, although a "physical" thing, caused a metaphysical change on Athas - they shifted the plane of Water "away" enough that there was then a good balance between the four planes - the Green Age.
And, how this connects to the current discussion 'bout Rajaat: If physical changes on the planet, be they "man-made" or otherwise, can cause a metaphysical change in the balance of the (para)elemental planes, then perhaps the reverse could work as well - enough metaphysical change could cause a physical change that has the appearance of magic. With Rajaat as a focal point of (para)elemental energy, the area around him physically changed to resemble Athas' as it was in the Blue Age because the metaphysical area around him "looked" the same as it did in the Blue Age - high Water connection, low on earth, etc. To phrase it a different way, on Athas there's a direct relationship between physical conditions and the balance of elemental forces, and unlike common thought this is a relationship that works equally both ways - change the elemental balance enough and you change the physical conditions (to the point of "recreating" things), change the physical conditions and the elemental balance (even if it's just in a localized area) changes.
Further in-game evidence for this would be the Deadlands - the paraelemental planes are tied to negative energy/the undead, so by physically changing Athas (the Obsidian Plains), you've also changed the metaphysics of the area (higher Magma connection), which in turn has a direct effect on the physical properties of the area (tons of undead are formed). A causal loop, if you will.
Does that mean that you believe it's possible to escape Athas by travel through the Inner Planes? ( I know I just opened up one of the most dreaded components of DS cosmology by even asking that):D
Assuming the elemental planes are connected to the rest of the multiverse, sure why not? That doesn't many that there is anything out there and it's possible that Athas has it's own inner planes seperate from the others as well. It all depends on how you want to run things.
Does that mean that you believe it's possible to escape Athas by travel through the Inner Planes? ( I know I just opened up one of the most dreaded components of DS cosmology by even asking that):D
I work with the idea that the inner planes have no connection directly to the rest of the multiverse (hence the term "inner" planes). They are unique to each world that they are connected with.
To connect to the outer planes, one needs transitive planes, however Athas' transitive planes are, well, screwed up, cutting it off from everything else.
(...okay, so I do. But not to other prime materials. That'd be silly.)
On the other topic of conversation.
I think Rajaat bound himself with the Water Elemental Plane. Since the Champions defeated and imprisoned him, Rajaat was diminished and so is water on Athas. Following that line of thought, since Rajaat is still imprisioned and still bound to water, Athas will be a desert planet until finally destroyed and his connection is released. And now that the gateway to Rajaat (the dark lens) is sitting at Athas' core, who knows when that will be.
Mine's cut off too. With no transitives, one cannot get to the Outer Planes, or to other prime materials. Without access to other prime materials, you can't get to their respective inner planes.
Im my games I worked into the history that although cut off now (and has been for a very long time) it wasn't always so.
Therefore the odd relic or item from other worlds would crop up occassionally.
A +2 longsword could be much more of a curse than a boon to a low level party on a world with very scant quality metals
The Black can be considered a transitive plane, in fact, an ultimate one. It is said that the Black separated everything that does exist from everything that does not, hinting that if you knew how you could step through the Black into an alternate plane of existence, or a different multiverse altogether. The Black and the Plane of Shadow are essentially the same thing, IIRC, and it's stated in many sources that the Plane of Shadow is a very useful transitive plane, and properly exploited, can be used in almost any capacity the Astral or Ethereal can be.
I see both the Grey and the Black as transitive planes. However, I see that the Grey has cut off the Black as well -- the Black being the part of the Plane of Shadows that was trapped "behind" the Grey. The Grey is a bizarre merger of the Ethereal and Astral planes, which prevents travel in or out of it.
There is one other transitive plane I allow in my campaigns, one which isn't actually cut off. However what little was once known about it, is now completely lost. The only person alive who might even remotely know something about it any more, is completely flipping insane (Daskinor). The plane is the Plane of Mirrors -- and a decided lack of mirrors (and metal) significantly reduces the likelihood that people would stumble upon it. The ban on arcane magic also drastically reduces the odds of people finding it. This is a plane that even Rajaat had not been able to figure out.
I'm my games I worked into the history that although cut off now (and has been for a very long time) it wasn't always so.
Therefore the odd relic or item from other worlds would crop up occasionally.
A +2 longsword could be much more of a curse than a boon to a low level party on a world with very scant quality metals
I have it that it didn't always be this way either. However, I have it in my campaigns that the Grey became the Grey (and cut everything off) so far in the past, that it predated the earliest part of the timeline (I tend to think that the "Blue Age" as we know it, was actually more of the "Golden Age" of Rhulisti civilization (which I see as an advanced civilization based on biotechnology, more advanced than where Earth civilizations currently are, and Athas' timeline extends way further back than what the timeline currently starts at).
Since I play with the examples in Black Flames, the Ravenloft Kalidnay supplement, the Baatezu from Dragon's Crown and City by the Silt Sea, I have to allow some planular travel in my DS games. I have a sort of metaphysical rending or barrier that prevents higher spiritual planes from reaching Athas. You can carve a way though, but you need to build a gigantic gate artifact.
That's actually how I run it in my game, I just didn't feel like describing it. ;) In my campaign Tyr is currently under control by an army of Baatzu who used a relic similar to the Planar Gate (but connected directly to Baator) to get to Athas. My cosmology is more of a "one-way ticket" situation than true "no planar travel" - things can get to Athas a lot easier than they can get out.
I have it that it didn't always be this way either. However, I have it in my campaigns that the Grey became the Grey (and cut everything off) so far in the past, that it predated the earliest part of the timeline (I tend to think that the "Blue Age" as we know it, was actually more of the "Golden Age" of Rhulisti civilization (which I see as an advanced civilization based on biotechnology, more advanced than where Earth civilizations currently are, and Athas' timeline extends way further back than what the timeline currently starts at).
The trouble with making it so long ago is that the chances of anything surviving for that longer time period is very very slim. The only exception is maybe some artifacts or relics whose magic would sustain them over such a long period.
If however you assume the demise of planar travel was linked to the interface between blue and green ages, you lessen the time scale and increase the chance of things surviving.
Also, I felt that the abuses of the rhulisti / brown tide episode was the perfect link to tie in the isolation of athas on a planar scale.
f.
I see both the Grey and the Black as transitive planes. However, I see that the Grey has cut off the Black as well -- the Black being the part of the Plane of Shadows that was trapped "behind" the Grey. The Grey is a bizarre merger of the Ethereal and Astral planes, which prevents travel in or out of it.
I was at a Dark Sun seminar WAY back in '96 at Gen Con where Troy Denning said that the Grey was the Astral without any Outer Planes to go to.
His idea was the Astral is grey, but the Outer Planes bordering it is where you get the swirls of color and activity. If there is nowhere for the spirits to go, they will either, a) stick around (hence the greater emphasis on the undead) or b) diffuse into nothing.
I tend to stick with that, but I define it further with a Great Metaphysical Barrier slashing right through the Astral, with the Grey and elemental planes on one side, and the Astral we all know and love on the other. I leave the Ethereal out of the equation altogether. That way the Black Flames adventure makes sense, and being able to summon Baatezu and Taanari (2ndE rules mind you) make sense.
Also, an arbitrary Great Metaphyisical Barrier can also account for the reason why Gods have no presence on Athas, but through a convoluted path, you CAN get to the outer planes. But the Champions can grant spells through those elemental vortexes.
So, to pick a god at random, can Thor grant spells to his clerics after they walk through Dregoth's Gate into Athas? Can Thor grant spells to an Athasian once they pass from Athas to elsewhere through Dregoth's gate? Can Dregoth worship Thor and get spells? Can Dregoth kick Thor's a$$? Can Thor beat Hamanu in an arm wrestling competition?
THESE are the questions I ask!
That's actually how I run it in my game, I just didn't feel like describing it. ;) In my campaign Tyr is currently under control by an army of Baatzu who used a relic similar to the Planar Gate (but connected directly to Baator) to get to Athas. My cosmology is more of a "one-way ticket" situation than true "no planar travel" - things can get to Athas a lot easier than they can get out.
I can see the Elemental Powers getting really annoyed at an invasion of Baatezu.
'Hey, this is OUR turf! We don't want the Outsiders here!'
Now I'm imagining fighting in the streets with Elementals, Elementalists and Genies on one side, and the Hordes of Baator on the other.
I can see the Elemental Powers getting really annoyed at an invasion of Baatezu.
'Hey, this is OUR turf! We don't want the Outsiders here!'
Now I'm imagining fighting in the streets with Elementals, Elementalists and Genies on one side, and the Hordes of Baator on the other.
To make a long, complicated story short, the gate was created back during the Cleansing Wars and then "lost" for millenia, and due to the actions of the PCs in a previous campaign, rather than being destroyed they instead made a deal with the devils which, of course, led to bad stuff happening.
How I run Outer Plane outsiders, especially in this case, is this - in order to exist on Athas they need some sort of "spiritual energy" as they otherwise have no connection to their original plane (and to me, the alignment-based outsiders are basically an "embodiment" of that plane...so they need some sort of connection back to it), and since there are no gods/god-clerics to provide that they instead need cultists in order to be able to stay on Athas. Prior to the invasion there weren't many of them, as there were almost no individuals who "believed" in devils...but after the PCs failed to destroy them they built up some cults, which allowed more to step through this Gate of theirs, which in turn gave them the ability to start even more cults, etc. Since Kalak was preparing for his transformation at the time it was really easy to get people to join the cults (not too difficult to look good and make grand promises when you've got a power-mad Kalak to compare to....even if you *are* a fiend). Eventually they got enough of 'em "across" to Athas that, as Kalak was performing his transformation, they stormed into Tyr, slew him and took control. Once that happened they pretty much had an entire city believing in them, which let even more Baatzu through, and the next thing you know they're running the entire place like communists.
So far the elementals haven't taken much notice of them, as they've only been in power for a few months and haven't started "spreading their religion" very much....yet. As time goes by it'll be war though, since eventually the devils will start dragging elemental worshippers "over to their side" in order to increase their spiritual (and thus, physical) presence on Athas... pretty much how you imagined it.
I haven't figured out if I like Athas in a completely unique cosmology or if I like Athas as part of the greater D&D multiverse. There are tidbits of NPCs and monsters from other worlds on Athas, so a mutliverse makes sense, but the elemental planes in a chaotic disarray make sense for Athas to be totally separate.
Once that happened they pretty much had an entire city believing in them, which let even more Baatzu through, and the next thing you know they're running the entire place like communists.
You mean they are equalizing wealth among the people and eliminating the ruling class?
So far the elementals haven't taken much notice of them, as they've only been in power for a few months and haven't started "spreading their religion" very much....yet. As time goes by it'll be war though, since eventually the devils will start dragging elemental worshippers "over to their side" in order to increase their spiritual (and thus, physical) presence on Athas... pretty much how you imagined it.
What I find interesting about what you are doing is that you are giving faith and ritual a sort of eldrich power that serves as an energy to keep the Baatezu around. Now Athas has no Gods, (none that can grant spells and miracles at any rate) so no matter how much you pray to Badna, Badna will never grant you a spell. But if you pray and ritualize the Pit Fiends, then they draw enough power from you to be able to hang out and make you stand in line for toilet paper.
Now this is a sort of a chicken and the egg question, and different in every campaign, but what is the difference between the belief in Baatezu that allows them to exist and the belief in a God? Can a Baatezu get enough worshipers to generate enough energy to reach a demigodhood?
You mean they are equalizing wealth among the people and eliminating the ruling class?
Actually...yes - except that there is no wealth for the Common Man ("your needs will be provided for"). :P They've renamed Tyr the Free Socialist City-State of Tyr, the templars have been renamed Commissars, and you either tow the party line (i.e. do what the devils tell you, smile while you do it, and by all means KEEP TELLING EVERYONE HOW GREAT A PLACE TYR IS OR ELSE) or you are labelled a "criminal" and put to work to "pay off your debt to society." They've made slavery illegal...but they also made just about everything else illegal as well, and more to the point don't have the laws written down anywhere ("ignorance is no excuse, mortal!") so whenever they need workers for XYZ job, and don't happen to have enough "willing subjects" to do it, they simply find some reason to arrest a bunch of people and put them to work. They've got skeletons and zombies doing most of the work for them (the iron mines have never been more productive!), but since these *are* devils, they feel it necessary to beat the idea of law into their subjects in the most abusive way possible.
From the "financial" perspective, "trading teams" of commissars and devils are sent out to the other city states, where they establish an embassy and work out trade deals, preferrably bartering (but they'll take money if they have to, since although they don't use it in Tyr anymore they realize that everyone else does), and then devils teleport back and forth with the goods (...up to 50 lbs. per teleportation, of course ;)) or, if the trade goods are too heavy, teleport back with the "order" and have a caravan sent.
Devils are really efficient at doing...well...whatever it is they do. ;)
What I find interesting about what you are doing is that you are giving faith and ritual a sort of eldrich power that serves as an energy to keep the Baatezu around. Now Athas has no Gods, (none that can grant spells and miracles at any rate) so no matter how much you pray to Badna, Badna will never grant you a spell. But if you pray and ritualize the Pit Fiends, then they draw enough power from you to be able to hang out and make you stand in line for toilet paper.
Now this is a sort of a chicken and the egg question, and different in every campaign, but what is the difference between the belief in Baatezu that allows them to exist and the belief in a God? Can a Baatezu get enough worshipers to generate enough energy to reach a demigodhood?
I'm probably going to ramble here, but hopefully it'll make sense overall:
Since the connection between the outer planes and Athas is, at best, tenuous, it requires some sort of energy - normally magical in nature - to allow OP creatures to exist on Athas. This is justified by simple Summon or Planar Binding spells (assuming that you allow non-elementals to be summoned/called using those spells - it is, as you mention, a very campaign-specific choice). At the same time, devils and other "aligned" outsiders are the embodiment of a particular concept (in this case, "what an alignment really means"), so in essence they're ideas-made-real Since Athasian magic is "the magic of life", literally, harnessed to create something unnatural, I took that extra step and decided that devils and other outsiders are "the magic of ideals" - something unnatural created because people think they *should* exist. In other words, there are lawful evil outsiders because some people think lawful evil thoughts.
So, in my game, belief in the baatzu is, in essence, a non-magical Planar Binding spell; it has nothing to do with gods or even "divine energy", it's simply the "energy" that the baatzu require in order to keep from returning to their home plane, just like a spell can keep them on the PMP for a given duration. Another way of looking at it is if you take the idea that every Athasian has some minute amount of psionic potential, add a bunch of these people together and get them all thinking "well sure, devils are real" and voila, that potential in the form of a collective belief results in a supernatural force that allows yet another devil to remain on the PMP. None of the devils actually gain power out of this - what they gain is the ability to remain on Athas for extended periods of time, which means that they can corrupt the souls of more mortals, which in turn results in a greater "lawful evil-ness" which, as mentioned above, means (in my cosmology) that there's "More Baator" than there was awhile ago. None can become a god due to this belief, nor is that their intent; they simply want more "lawful evil-ness" as they realize they are the embodiment of that concept, are powered by it, and in the end benefit from it. Those devils that corrupt the most people get elevated to a higher position (and devil type) within the baatzu heirarchy, while those mortals that truly become corrupt are able to "bridge the gap" that normally prevents travel to the outer planes and, in their unfortunate cases, become devils (dretches...?)
As to the chicken/egg aspect, all it took was for that one wizard back during the Cleansing Wars to think "Hmm...maybe I can create a spell that'll summon up some new kind of creature, something that's really, really mean and that will do my bidding for it." Planar Binding is invented, the first devil makes a deal with an Athasian, and unfortunately when the deal is over with they're sent back to the Nine Hells. But that devil was smart; next time he's summoned, the deal changes a little - "all I want in return for my services is that you listen to what I have to say," and since devils are great power-players, that poor mage listens...and listens...then gets others involved....and next thing you know there's a devil-cult going on. Once there are a dozen people that expect this devil to be there, the spell is no longer necessary - their belief takes it's place. Over the years situations like this occur here and there, to the point where there are *some* but not a lot of devils (and other outsiders) around. The big diff with the devils is that (in my game) someone was foolish enough to make an artifact that linked right to their plane, so they don't require that initial summoning spell anymore - they just need enough "belief energy" to exist and, when it's there, they simply step through. If one steps through beyond this belief-threshhold he simply disappears back to Baator, just like he would if a summoning spell ended - there just isn't enough energy to keep him "manifested" as it were.
Hypothetically and only to illustrate my question within your model, follow this story.
Dregoth bumps into Thor during his extra-planular travels. After a fantastic booze-up Dregoth decides to bring Thor home to check out his pad. Once on Athas, Thor says; "Odin's beard, it's hotter than Surtur's dick down here! I need to bring some rain to this- HEY THAT'S THE BIGGEST STORM I EVER DID SEE!! HOW COOL IS THAT????" Then, when Dregoth is sleeping it off, Thor heads out and tells the stories about himself kicking the tar out of the World Serpent and his other adventures. Then Thor heads back to Dregoth's pad just before Dregoth wakes up, and says goodbye and goes back to Asgard through Dregoth's gate.
Now there's a few Athasians walking around telling the story with the punchline, "Then he said, 'I'm Thor!'. And she replied, 'Your thor? I'm so thor I can hardly pith!". And some people start walking around believing Thor actually exists.
How soon before Thor can just pop on in?
How soon before Thor can start having Athasian Clerics casting spells in his name?
Given that there connection between the Outer Planes and Athas is pretty much non-existant, you could have the entire planet believing in Thor and he still wouldn't be able to grant them any powers. I guess if he stayed on Athas he could...maybe he could, at least...but from the OP's there simply is no way for him to get divine energy to Athas. Remember that back in the Green Age people believed in gods, and yet elemental clerics and druids were still the only ones wielding elemental power.
(As a side note, I'm one of those people that think that, back in the Green Age, belief in the gods was enough to allow for the Divine Mind class from Complete Psionic, albeit this "divine" power was coming from within and was in no way connected to an actual god - it was just the person's belief that enabled them to do things that, to them, appeared somewhat divine in nature. But I digress.)
Now, as to your actual question:
The belief "energy" is the same - the big difference is that if a god were to physically manifest on Athas, they'd "lose connection" to their home plane and thus every one of their believers, scattered throughout the multiverse, wouldn't be able to get power from them...nor would they be able to gain any of this energy from their followers. Since there'd obviously be far fewer believers on Athas than there are everywhere *but* Athas, this'd be a bad business move for a god...and thus they'd never do it.
With the devils the situation is different - they don't provide spiritual energy to anyone (well, not in the same way a god does at least), they're in a different category than even a demigod (much less powerful), there are multiple devils as opposed to a single god, and in the end they're really only after one thing - the souls of mortals, more fodder to fuel the Blood Wars. Whereas a single god has multiple worlds to concern him/her/itself with, fiends and other races of "aligned" outsiders have entire armies at their disposal whose sole job is to acquire more souls (if you've ever read any Planescape materials, souls are the "currency" of the Outer Planes), and Athas is just as good of a target as any.
Maybe that's the part that I haven't really explained - the fact that the devils are "taking" this belief but they're really not giving anything back, as they can't do so like a god can. Sure, they can start up a cult and provide meager amounts of power to their followers (see the Fiend of Blasphemy PrC from the Fiend Folio), and they can pretend to be gods all they want (which the higher-ups in control of Tyr are obviously doing), but in the end it's all about corrupting Athasian mortals into becoming the epitomy of Lawful Evil so that when they die the devils can "take them back" to Baator through their artifact-portal, as that individual's soul is, for all intents and purposes, that of a devil before their physical death. If it wasn't for this artifact gate they wouldn't be able to do this (since, like the Planar Gate, it's serving as an artifical connection to the OP's - without it the devils couldn't stay even if the entire populace of Athas "believed" in them, nor would they have any way of "collecting souls" as again there would otherwise be no direct connection to the OP of Baator)
As a side note, I do allow templars who take the FoB PrC blood bond to actually receive spells from the devils; in essence, they've traded their S-K's elemental vortex connection for a baatzu's Baatorian connection (again, via the gate). I just saw such a similarity between how the Fiend of Blasphemy PrC worked and how the S-K/Templar relationship was that it made sense to me to connect those two. After all, a templar is already trained to, basically, beg their evil master for divine energy so they can do their job...doesn't sound any different than what a devil would expect, does it? In this case they *are* channeling divine energy from an Outer Plane, although it's coming from Baator itself (as opposed to a specific god, etc.), similar to how the elemental vortices "steal" elemental energy from the Inner Planes. Similar concept, just replacing the elemental vortice with an artifact-gate and the sorcerer-monarch with a devil whose purpose in their existence is to spread their lawful evil-ness and harness more souls for their armies.
How do you separate the belief energy that allows the presence of devils from the belief energy that allows for the existence of Gods?
Hypothetically and only to illustrate my question within your model, follow this story.
Dregoth bumps into Thor during his extra-planular travels. After a fantastic booze-up Dregoth decides to bring Thor home to check out his pad. Once on Athas, Thor says; "Odin's beard, it's hotter than Surtur's dick down here! I need to bring some rain to this- HEY THAT'S THE BIGGEST STORM I EVER DID SEE!! HOW COOL IS THAT????" Then, when Dregoth is sleeping it off, Thor heads out and tells the stories about himself kicking the tar out of the World Serpent and his other adventures. Then Thor heads back to Dregoth's pad just before Dregoth wakes up, and says goodbye and goes back to Asgard through Dregoth's gate.
Now there's a few Athasians walking around telling the story with the punchline, "Then he said, 'I'm Thor!'. And she replied, 'Your thor? I'm so thor I can hardly pith!". And some people start walking around believing Thor actually exists.
How soon before Thor can just pop on in?
How soon before Thor can start having Athasian Clerics casting spells in his name?
You'd have to resurrect Ablach-re to make this happen. If she heard about everyone believing in this new god "thor," she'd probably turn him into her next Badna.
As a side note, I do allow templars who take the FoB PrC blood bond to actually receive spells from the devils; in essence, they've traded their S-K's elemental vortex connection for a baatzu's Baatorian connection (again, via the gate). I just saw such a similarity between how the Fiend of Blasphemy PrC worked and how the S-K/Templar relationship was that it made sense to me to connect those two. After all, a templar is already trained to, basically, beg their evil master for divine energy so they can do their job...doesn't sound any different than what a devil would expect, does it? In this case they *are* channeling divine energy from an Outer Plane, although it's coming from Baator itself (as opposed to a specific god, etc.), similar to how the elemental vortices "steal" elemental energy from the Inner Planes. Similar concept, just replacing the elemental vortice with an artifact-gate and the sorcerer-monarch with a devil whose purpose in their existence is to spread their lawful evil-ness and harness more souls for their armies.
So you allow a plane to be the source of divine magic, and not a god? The Planes of Hell through the Baator can grant spells along the same lines as the elemental planes can grant spells through the elementals. (of course as long as that gate is open.)
Say someone builds a gate to Asgard, (which would be the personification of Chaotic Good just like Baator is for Lawful Evil) and through that Gate, Thor comes to Athas and starts educating the people on the awesomeness of Mjnolir 'if you rub it, it gets bigger, I swear!'. After beating Hamanu at arm wrestling, a Templar of Hamanu says 'this Thor guy is OK by me' and starts asking Thor for spells instead of Hamanu. Thor can't grant the spells himself, but can Asgard grant Chaotic Good energy through him?
-J, who thinks Thor is ok by him.
BTW, Divine Mind... duly noted.
So you allow a plane to be the source of divine magic, and not a god? The Planes of Hell through the Baator can grant spells along the same lines as the elemental planes can grant spells through the elementals. (of course as long as that gate is open.)
Very, *very* loosely...but yes. And only because that's how, when it really comes down to it, S-K's grant their spell-power to their followers - they "channel" the energies of the inner planes (all of 'em, mind you) and somehow "convert" this energy into a form useable by their templars. And yes, the devils (...as long as the gate is open, yes), in a sense, are doing the same job that the elemental lords, or S-K's, are doing - they're the conduit through which this energy is "channeled" to their followers.
Say someone builds a gate to Asgard, (which would be the personification of Chaotic Good just like Baator is for Lawful Evil) and through that Gate, Thor comes to Athas and starts educating the people on the awesomeness of Mjnolir 'if you rub it, it gets bigger, I swear!'. After beating Hamanu at arm wrestling, a Templar of Hamanu says 'this Thor guy is OK by me' and starts asking Thor for spells instead of Hamanu. Thor can't grant the spells himself, but can Asgard grant Chaotic Good energy through him?
Hehe well...I can give you an answer based on my cosmology, although this is going to have *major* issues, I think, if you try and combine it with a more standardized D&D cosmology. ...and this may get twisted enough to become nonsense anyway, but lemme give it a shot:
First off, there's a major difference between Thor, and what he represents, and Asgard, the plane he lives in. Thor is neither the god nor the personification of the Chaotic Good alignment; he's the god of thunder and lightning and drinking with valkyries and smackin' people upside the head with his righteous hammer and did I mention drinking already? Also, as a god, Thor's very existence depends on the belief of his followers, and his "godly power" (Divine Rank if you want to look at it from a rules perspective) is based upon how many, and thus how much, belief individuals have in him.
On the other hand, Asgard *does* embody the Chaotic Good alignment - it exists as a representation of the ideals of that alignment, and even if Thor weren't there it'd still be the personification (Geolification? Planarification?) of Chaotic Good, just like Thor always represents thunder and lightning even when he's taking a relaxing vacation on layer 333 of the Abyss (that's the R&R layer - it's filled with pools, scenic overlooks, posh decor and an infinite number of massage parlors...but the service is absolutely horrendeous and they're always out of towels).
Now, let us turn to the devils. Although not native to the Nine Hells (as is mentioned somewhere - they killed off the original denizens and took control of the place sometime in the past), the Baatzu are the personification of Lawful Evil, just like the plane itself is the planarification (I'm trademarking that word as of...NOW) if Lawful Evil. So, unlike Thor, the "you can take the Baatzu out of the Nine Hells but you can't take the Nine Hells out of a Baatzu" - they each represent the same thing, the same ideal, and for all intents and purposes are composed of the same "stuff" (devils have no soul separate from their body, it all being "one unit," so their Lawful Evil-ness is just as much a physical part of them as it is a spiritual one. The Nine Hells is the same - you can't separate the Lawful Evil-ness of the plane from the plane itself. Thus, when you mush up the body of a devil and set it next to a mushed-up pile of Nine Hells dirt, at it's most rudimentary level they're both the same "stuff." How's that logic for ya?). Since they have this direct connection, which directly parallels both that of the Elemental Plane/Elemental Lord and Inner Planes/Sorcerer-King relationship, they can perform the same "channeling" duties as those two groups do - they "give" the power of their home plane to their worshippers.
With Thor, he provides divine power to individuals that believe in him from his own reserve of "spiritual energy," which in turn comes from the belief that's given to him by those self-same worshippers. If someone worships Asgard, he gains nothing by it - if someone worships Thor, Asgard gains nothing.
So if Thor shows up and people Athasians start believing in him, he gains some power from those individuals and can bestow powers upon them as well. But he can only do so while he's physically on Athas - the artifact-gate connects Asgard to Athas, *not* Thor to Athas - Thor is "his own thing" that just happened to step through said gate. This gate (if it's the same kind as the one the Baatzu in my campaign are using) is literally only connecting those two planes - the PMP (Athas) and that specific Outer Plane - but otherwise has no direct connection to anything else; true, you could go to Baator (or in this example, Asgard), and from there step through to Athas, but if your existence depended on their being a "path" from you to, say, the Abyss, you'd die the moment you stepped through - you can get to the Abyss from Baator, but it's an *indirect* connection, one which the artifact-gate can't handle. With Thor, if he didn't have any believers on Athas prior to stepping through that gate, I imagine he'd go POP in a poof of smoke as all that believing-in-Thor from various parts of the multiverse can't get to him - the energy could "follow his trail" to Asgard, but since the artifact-gate can't "channel" indirect energy it couldn't funnel that belief through the gate and into Thor. If he had at least 1 worshipper on Athas he could do it (say, the slave staring at him through the gate as Thor's stepping through), but the moment he arrived he'd lose nearly all of his power...he wouldn't be a god anymore, and would just barely even exist (if that poor slave died, so would he). Even if he got through, beat Hamanu and took control of Urik, those 35,000 (or whatever) followers pales in comparison to the millions (or more) spread throughout the multiverse - a total waste of time for good ol' Thor.
When it comes to channeling the energy of Asgard, Thor has no idea how to even do that - he channels his *own* energy, always has and always will. (as a god he's unchanging unless his followers change him...but if every single follower started believing that he wasn't the one that gave them their divine powers he wouldn't be a god anymore, now would he?) Asgard, by the same token, has no idea how to channel *any* energy - it's just a plane, after all. Now, Thor could probably figure out some way to do this - he *is* a god after all - but doing so would provide no benefit to him since he'd still be cut off from the rest of his followers.
On the other hand, if there were some celestials or what-not that *did* embody Chaotic Goodness, and came from Asgard, then it's possible that they could serve as a conduit for Asgard's power. But Thor and the rest of his family probably wouldn't like that, I'm guessing wouldn't tolerate it, and would likely spell a quick end for the endeavor of this bright-yet-now-dead Asgardian native.
...and I'm spent.
BTW, Divine Mind... duly noted.
About the only place it fits into the Dark Sun setting, IMO, is as a Green Age explanation for the various god-based religions that existed and yet didn't actually have gods to draw power from. But from that standpoint it seems to work quite well.
On the other hand, if there were some celestials or what-not that *did* embody Chaotic Goodness, and came from Asgard, then it's possible that they could serve as a conduit for Asgard's power. But Thor and the rest of his family probably wouldn't like that, I'm guessing wouldn't tolerate it, and would likely spell a quick end for the endeavor of this bright-yet-now-dead Asgardian native.
We call them Valkyries. Have you ever read The Primal Order?
-J
And a bad gif scan of a handout I made for a Preserver PC once. You give some esoteric guidence of the outer planes.
I've seen reference of a Plane called The Deep, where was that mentioned?
I've seen reference of a Plane called The Deep, where was that mentioned?
The Deep is the name we coined in Terrors of the Dead Lands to describe the Outer Planes and any other planes that the DM might use (like the Far Realm). "The Deep" is a catch-all reference for the Big Beyond that lies over the edge of the horizon in Athasian cosmology. So, although baatezu (for example) feature in DS material, most Athasians have never heard of Baator, or probably even the Outer Planes. They might instead describe such a creature as being from the Deep.
From a design perspective, it allows for the DM to devise a unique DS cosmology and add or develop additional planes as he sees fit. He can use the Great Wheel, for example, or just stick to the basic Athasian planes and discard any idea of Outer Planes. Using a non-specific term like "the Deep" allows for greater flexibility between individual campaigns.
From a design perspective, it allows for the DM to devise a unique DS cosmology and add or develop additional planes as he sees fit. He can use the Great Wheel, for example, or just stick to the basic Athasian planes and discard any idea of Outer Planes. Using a non-specific term like "the Deep" allows for greater flexibility between individual campaigns.
Awesome idea! That's pretty much what I have done, but I called it The Beastlands. In my campaigns, the creatures from the outer planes are not too terribly frightening compared to abominations like Nightmare Beasts and Pakubrazi. So when powerful wizards open portals to the outer planes, they don't see Devils and Demons because they don't have a frame of reference. They only see monsters that need to be put down.
Don't most of the original 2E supplements refer to the Outer Planes simply as "The Beyond" , like in the reference in Thri-Kreen of Athas to "A fiend from Beyond"(The Osyluth that slew Ka'Cha)?
Well, it's not capitalised in the references in TKoA so I'm not sure if it is a proper noun or just an adjective, but that is the same sort of idea (iirc "The Beyond" had been my initial suggestion, but we went with "The Deep" after some discussion on the topic).
If "The Beyond" is actually used in several places other than TKoA, it would be good to know. It might suggest that there is reason and precedent enough to use that instead of The Deep.
It makes perfect sense that radically different people and cultures would have different names for the same thing. The fact that some people call it the beyond doesn't mean that others don't call it the deep.
We call them Valkyries. Have you ever read The Primal Order?
...Good point; I guess they probably could do so, although they wouldn't be Thor, Thor wouldn't get any of the "power" generated by belief in the Valkyries, and he'd probably also get pissy with the fact that they were going about pretending to be gods on Athas rather than picking up barbarian souls off of battlefields scattered around the rest of the multiverse.
Of course it is never detailed what caused the split between Athas and the rest of the Multiverse. Even in the Blue Age Elemental Clerics were the priestly powers, not Divine Clerics.
I tend to think of the separation happening way back in what Blue Age Rhulisti would consider prehistory. But the Blue Age could have existed for millenia before the World's Calendar even was invented. But I do see it as a sort of tear or violent cosmological act.
AH! Indeed you are a GEE-NI-UUS!
I prefer to think of myself as "temporally-cogitatingly disadvantaged," but that's mostly just so I can get the Blue-N-White windshield sticker for my car.