**Spoilers**
I’m running EtCR pretty soon and wanted to know if any of you have any tips to make it run smoothly. There were a few things that presented themselves as problems to me on my first glances through the book.
Firstly if you go around the town in the order suggested: Tavern-> Church-> Bergermeister's house then you actually find out about Ireena being 'adopted' before you meet her. This seems like the wrong way round to do things, and actually makes light of her watching so diligently over her 'father'.
Surely it would be better if you could go to the house first, then later on find out she was 'adopted'. Having already met the character it might actually mean something then. Or I could drop the fact that she was 'adopted' completely, unless its important later on.
The second issue concerns Madam Eva. I have no problem with how the Vistani are depicted and the fact she is a Hag. But im writing a little bonus ending for the campaign. Essentially destroying Strahd will transfer the town of Barovia in to the Demiplane of Dead, creating Ravenloft.
Therein Strahd is recreated in his Ravenloft form at the beginning of the Ravenloft timeline. Time passes as my PCs exist outside of Ravenloft, but later will be drawn in. Time has passed much more quickly in Ravenloft and the Core is now fully formed.
My problem is that the adventure calls for Madam Eva to be killed, but this creates problems for continuity with future Ravenloft events. Is there any way to resolve the adventure without Madam Eva being killed? Is it enough to destroy only the other two fanes?
I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on these issues, many thanks in advance.
Naturally, if the real Eva comes back, the annis in question will find herself cursed six ways from Sunday! But then, perhaps that's why your EtCR PCs find themselves in Castle Ravenloft's vicinity, in the first place: Eva (the real one) arranged for them to stumble into Barovia and smack down this upstart imposter.
The Vistani, to me and as originally written, occupy much the same space that fey creatures occupy in the more traditional campaign worlds; i.e., they are whimsical and barely comprehensible, they seem to not flow through existence the same way mortals do, they know things they can't know, they are sources of vast but odd knowledge, and they are ultimately, completely neutral - mostly chaotic neutral - in alignment. The Madame Evas of the world play the line between good and evil more conscientiously - they are the adults in a society of mercurial children - but ultimately, they do what is best for their people.
I don't know that all that rambling really does anything for making EtCR run any smoother, but... meh. Good luck to you!
On the subject of Vistani in general, I've never considered them to exist outside of time as you mention. Certainly the Zarovan half-vistani have the ability to 'drift' in time a little, but the rest seem to be completly mortal. But those are only half-bloods, so its beside the point. It has been a while since I read Van Richten's guide to the Vistani, so there may be something in there i'm forgetting.
Gonzoron and Mr Piskie, you seem to disagree on the issue of Madam Eva's mortality. One of explains her ability to live after her death by saying that in the future she will go back in time to die and the other says she just isn't affected by it.
If the former is the case then that causes a problem, she can't travel back in time to die, twice! I guess I will either have a new third Hag impersonating her or just put the third hag somewhere else.
Rotipher: I'm actually setting the game before the creation of Ravenloft, so this tribe of vistani are actually pro-genitors for the Vistani and Half-Vistani of Ravenloft.
Another point I'm considering regards the creation of ravenloft in canon. IIRC it's Strahd's murder of his half-brother and his wedding guests (and the death of Tatyana) which causes the mists to seize Barovia and creat Ravenloft.
But this is mentioned in EtCR as having happened generations before. My idea is to have this Ravenloft hovering between worlds, half-way between the material and demi-planes. As such its possible to physically reach Barovia from the corpreal realm, but at the same time Strahd has the power to use the mists to shut this plane off from his lands if he so wishes.
His death in the corpreal realm (at the end of EtCR) pushes Barovia fully over to the demi-plane and so continues the formation of Ravenloft. I need to dig up a Ravenloft timeline and look at how long there was between the death of Tatyana and the next domain joining Ravenloft, as obviosly my version requires there to be several hundred years.
EDIT: Just looked at the timeline. It looks like Barovia enters the demi-plane in 351 (BC) and Forfar (Forlorn) is the next to enter at 547 BC. That gives me 196 years to play with, which is pretty good. EtCR claims that 'hundreds of yeas ago' Strahd conquered Barovia, which presumably occurs at 321 BC. Overall things would need to happen a little quicker than the adventure suggest, but it fits none-the-less. The calendar might look a little like this:
321: "Strahd von Zarovich leads the armies of Barovia in battle against the Tergs in an attempt to reclaim his ancestral lands"
347: "General Strahd von Zarovich is waging war with the last of the Terg warlords, Dorian, also known as “the Goblyn King.” General von Zarovich makes a pact with the fiend Inajira for victory the night before the battle. Strahd conquers Barovia, but he cheats the fiend. The defeated Tergs are driven from Barovia. Strahd claims the throne as his reward."
351: Sergei and Tatyana’s wedding. Strahd makes pact with Death, becoming a vampire. Between Strahd and assassins sent by Leo Dilisnya, all the guests are killed. The Demiplane of Dread forms as Barovia becomes an island domain.
This 'island' domain is in-fact the version of Barovia, still clinging to the Corpreal world that exists as the setting for EtCR. This cold be fitted in to a remote part of just about any campaign setting.
Then, the adventure occurs approx. 200+ years after 321-347 BC, but before 547 BC. The timeline also says:
528: Powerful heroes assault Castle Ravenloft, confront Strahd, and are killed. (The “lower-level” Castle Ravenloft/House of Strahd.)
But that could be any set of heroes, and beside presumably the heroes of EtCR will not die (if my PCs are lucky). There are several other events which involve Barovia but can occur with it in/out side of Ravenloft. Here are two key events which I would like to pay heed to:
470: The Vistani appear at the exact stroke of midnight separating 469 from 470; Madame Eva & Strahd forge an alliance. Madame Eva also prophecies the coming of Azalin.
495: Jacqueline Montarri murders Madame Eva and is horrifically cursed. Madame Maruschka becomes the new raunie of the tribe.
It seems to make sense to avoid issues with Madam Eva and set EtCR between those dates. Taking the arbitray date of 490 BC this would put the adventure 169 years after Strahd's first battle with the Turgs, which as I mentioned before condenses the description in EtcR, but its still OK.
One issue is Madam Eva's pact with Strahd, but she has forseen Azalin's coming and presumably his meeting with Strahd. As such she may believe it is Strahd's fate to 'die' an hence be shifted in to Ravenloft, where he will meet Azalin. As such she helps the heroes kill him by aiding their search for the Legacy items.
On the subject of Vistani in general, I've never considered them to exist outside of time as you mention. Certainly the Zarovan half-vistani have the ability to 'drift' in time a little, but the rest seem to be completly mortal. But those are only half-bloods, so its beside the point. It has been a while since I read Van Richten's guide to the Vistani, so there may be something in there i'm forgetting.
Well, according to the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, the Vistani are divided into tasques, which are further subdivided into tribes. Madame Eva is a powerful and ancient member of the Zarovan tribe, which is a part of the Manusa tasque. The book says of the Manusa (on p 242): "They can see through time as others might through a window, walk through it as others might through a door. They can even take others with them if they choose. Time is so malleable to them as to be almost meaningless." (The Zarovan half-Vistani you mention are the offspring of a full-blooded Zarovan Vistana and a normal human, and as such have a mere fraction of this power.)
Whether this ability would also exempt one from having a single beginning and a single end (as I suggested) or whether Madame Eva's one and only death is at the hands of Jacqueline Montarri (as gonzoron contends) is one for the philosphers. Indeed, gonzoron's suggestion makes more intuitive sense... but it doesn't allow you to use Madame Eva later in your campaign. ;)
To that, though, I add this: Ravenloft is one wild and freaky place, and in that wild and freaky place, the people that manage to break EVEN THOSE wild and freaky rules are the Vistani. The complexity and involvement of all the various tasques and tribes is interesting, but to me, useless. My PCs will never be exposed to the Vistani for long enough to learn enough to be able to interpret (or refute) their weirdness.
Madame Eva is killed? BEFORE their very EYES? You can rest ASSURED that she'll be reading their cards for them again in 5 or 6 sessions, if it fits the storyline. Maybe even during her own WAKE. It's always been a big joke in my family that it would be interesting to be able to attend your own funeral and hear what everyone has to say... well, Madame Eva COULD if'n she wanted to.
This doesn't threaten the suspension of disbelief for my players, because:
(A) I am CONCRETE on continuity otherwise;
(B) The Vistani are not overused enough to be familiar;
(C) My campaigns are well-organized.
If my players were accustomed to seeing dead people again, the Vistani wouldn't impress them. If there were Vistani in every bar and inn in Ravenloft, my players would think they were members of a secret society or gang. If I forgot that Madame Eva was dead and re-inserted her out of personal ignorance, and did that with other people as well, then my players would not recognize Madame Eva's uniqueness, but the DM's idiocy instead.
Well, according to the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, the Vistani are divided into tasques, which are further subdivided into tribes. Madame Eva is a powerful and ancient member of the Zarovan tribe, which is a part of the Manusa tasque. The book says of the Manusa (on p 242): "They can see through time as others might through a window, walk through it as others might through a door. They can even take others with them if they choose. Time is so malleable to them as to be almost meaningless." (The Zarovan half-Vistani you mention are the offspring of a full-blooded Zarovan Vistana and a normal human, and as such have a mere fraction of this power.)
I stopped buying source-books for Ravenloft around the time 3.5 hit. Wizards books have just gotten so good lately, its a shock to look at books from another (relatively large) RPG company and see such a difference in quality.
Most of my time with Ravenloft was spent with the Red Box (and Black, but mostly Red) and then Domains of Dread. In the DoD the tasques are detailed in the player's section for Half-Vistani. The mechanism involved a bonus or penalty to things like intiative to represent how the Zarovan 'drifted' slightly in time.
Now that's just the Half-Vistani (Giomorgo IIRC) and as I said it's been a while since I read my copy of Van Richten's guide to the Vistani so there may be some stuff in there about the Zarovan.
I certainly can get on board with them being able to see in to the future (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual), but as far as time-travel goes, that would need to be a really rare gift. I can't see the entire tasque being able to freely step through time, it would just have far too extreme implications.
Thig is right, its just really good to have this kind of debate about Ravenloft, even if the campaign is now dead. I guess its true, in Ravenloft death is far from the end.
It would be great to hear some thoughts on my attempts to reoncile EtcR with JWM's timeline. What do you think of my idea about the PCs killing Strahd being the event to trigger the creation of Ravenloft.
I really want to employ, it will really mean a lot to my players who have all played multiple characters in Ravenloft. To know that their actions some how caused the Demi-plane to be created.
I stopped buying source-books for Ravenloft around the time 3.5 hit. Wizards books have just gotten so good lately, its a shock to look at books from another (relatively large) RPG company and see such a difference in quality.
It's interesting you should say that. The "general rule additions" for Ravenloft by White Wolf (by this I mean PHB, DMG, MM equivalents and also the Heroes and Champions books) range from very good, like the DMG, to pretty awful.
BUT, the Gazetteers are worth their weight in gold. Really good writing, combined with clever ideas and very detailed descriptions of the domains means that there's something useful in those for everyone.
...BUT, the Gazetteers are worth their weight in gold. Really good writing, combined with clever ideas and very detailed descriptions of the domains means that there's something useful in those for everyone.
Agreed wholeheartedly. With the Gazetteers in place, Ravenloft can go from being one of the least detailed (on purpose) campaign settings out there, to one of the MOST detailed. The Gazetteers are, in my opinion, among the BEST supplement books out there, not just for RL, but AT ALL. Of course, I put some of the Scarred Lands city books (Hollowfaust in particular) in that same category, so you know my prejudices.
BUT, the Gazetteers are worth their weight in gold. Really good writing, combined with clever ideas and very detailed descriptions of the domains means that there's something useful in those for everyone.
I concur wholeheartedly. The Gazetteers are possibly the best thing to ever happen to Ravenloft.
I certainly can get on board with them being able to see in to the future (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the individual), but as far as time-travel goes, that would need to be a really rare gift. I can't see the entire tasque being able to freely step through time, it would just have far too extreme implications.
Well, according to the same section of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, the Manusa tasque is extremely small. So small, in fact, that there may only be one caravan of each tribe. This is backed up in other sources (Gaz I) that describe the caravan near Barovia village as the only known Zarovan caravan in existence. So yeah, it's pretty rare.
What do you think of my idea about the PCs killing Strahd being the event to trigger the creation of Ravenloft.
It sounds good to me.
In my way of running it, EtCR is really Juste's play, which he was hired to write by a mysterious firgure (either the GC or Inajira, haven't decided yet). Having never been to Barovia, he writes about halfling Vistani, Madame Eva as a hag, lots of demons, Strahd w/o fighter levels, etc. If the players are veterans of Ravenloft, they may break through the illusion sooner than newbies, but either way, they will eventually ruin Juste's performance, at which point "Strahd" reveals himself to be Juste, the monsters to be cardboard cutouts, and the NPCs (Ireena, Ashlyn etc) to be villains of the campaign, who failed their saves against Juste's brainwashing, and believe they are heroes now. The PC's weapons are revealed to be stage props, and they must rescue the audience before Juste brings down the curtains (literally). If they escape the PCs may have to adjust to a totally different Barovia (assuming this isn't an ongoing RL campaign.)
So is there anyone who's a serious fan who didn't find EtCR to be a total abomination?
TOTAL abomination? I'd say it's not a TOTAL abomination. Does it really fit the I6/Castle Ravenloft/Black Boxes/Red Box/Domains of Dread/White Wolf era Ravenloft canon material that we all obviously know and love? No, it does not. There are a number of complaints to be lodged, with monstrous Madame Eva being, IMO, the most egregious. However, the book is not a waste.
How many people have had the opportunity to spend a weekend or a month or a year in hell, old-school Ravenloft adventure-style, that they otherwise could not have because their DMs are new to the game and didn't play those old classics? I'm glad for anything that brings non-gamers to the game, and anything that brings non-RL gamers to the Mists.
Further, some of the elements in the adventure - the products of some of Strahd's magical experimentation - didn't fit the first time around, but I'm glad they're there now. A new dimension of play, with an expanded pantry full of enemies, is born in the new book, and while it didn't fit atmospherically before, it DOES now. It's a positive evolution, but evolution is always going to have side effects (you do have to crack an egg or four to make a good omelette, after all).
I LIKE EtCR. I really like where my players are going with it. I'm enjoying running it. So there are some sections I have to slightly downplay; isn't that what being the DM is really all about? Aren't we supposed to be taking the material as written and bending it ever-so-slightly in order to make it fit into our worlds? That's how I'm taking it, and my players and I are taking a great deal of playing pleasure from it.
hello
first off, i wish i knew about this section of the boards a while back, would have been good to join in on some of the topics i have been reading when they were fresh
second, i dont have a group going at the moment but i still buy products that are of interest to me, like EtCR
third, and this one hurts the most, almost all of my ravenloft 2nd ed. books and boxes and NPC sheets and character sheets got either fire damaged, water damaged or smoke damaged in a fire that was in my aprtment building many years ago :raincloud
now i just bought the EtCR a few weeks ago and have been really disappointed with the lack of full sized maps and/or a tileset for minis. it would help out alot if there was a tile set that went along with this, even if it had to be bought seperately. im not good at drawing my own maps and they put small maps in the book, so why not make them full sized?
i would like to get a group going and have them stay in RL for some time so it looks like i will be hitting the used RPG section of the local book store