I was hoping that some of you could enlighten me a bit on a few things that I am having trouble with. First, it is my understanding that arcane magic in Athas is held with suspicion at best, and at worst could have you landing in prison. How is Divine (element worship) magic received? Could the layman recognize any difference between the two? Secondly, are there any plot/story differences between the original boxed set and the revised edition? I have the Wanderer's Journal and it seems that the information in it about Draj conflicts with information found in the revised boxed set and in 3E Dark Sun products.
Hello,
I was hoping that some of you could enlighten me a bit on a few things that I am having trouble with. First, it is my understanding that arcane magic in Athas is held with suspicion at best, and at worst could have you landing in prison. How is Divine (element worship) magic received? Could the layman recognize any difference between the two? Secondly, are there any plot/story differences between the original boxed set and the revised edition? I have the Wanderer's Journal and it seems that the information in it about Draj conflicts with information found in the revised boxed set and in 3E Dark Sun products.
Elemental clerics are usually easily identifiable and popular espicially water Clerics although Templars are suspicious of them. A Smart preserver could pose as an elemental Cleric as long as he didn't cast an obvious arcane spell like fireball (at least to someone who knows the difference).
Elemental clerics are usually easily identifiable and popular espicially water Clerics although Templars are suspicious of them. A Smart preserver could pose as an elemental Cleric as long as he didn't cast an obvious arcane spell like fireball (at least to someone who knows the difference).
...well, at least until someone asks for some healing. ;)
Elemental clerics are usually easily identifiable and popular espicially water Clerics although Templars are suspicious of them. A Smart preserver could pose as an elemental Cleric as long as he didn't cast an obvious arcane spell like fireball (at least to someone who knows the difference).
Well, in my campaigns, some fire clerics actually *have* fireball.
- The difference between divine and arcane magic is something people who understand what they are would recognize, but the common every-day, unlearned and unwashed Athasian doesn't distinguish between them. If the person knows how to tell the difference, then that individual could watch for the tell-tale signs. However the people are equally scared and in awe of magic, and what it does. Use of magic without extreme care in a populated area could cause a panic.
- Templars are known to use magic. Templars are feared, in part by the population because they use magic.
- Clerics and Druids generally are not overly common in populated areas -- druids less than clerics. Both are relatively rare, and tend to be shunned by the templars of a city-state. While yes, a water cleric would be very popular at times, people still could lash out as a knee-jerk reaction against the unknown, and kill the poor cleric who was just trying to help.
- In a world where the subtleties (and not so subtleties) between divine and arcane magic are largely ignored by the population, the difference between a defiler and a preserver is almost undoubtedly overlooked.
- I also have sorcerers in my campaign, and the differences between a wizard and a sorcerer are almost exclusively known to but a select handful of people, almost all of which are wizards or sorcerers themselves.
- Templars are known to use magic. Templars are feared, in part by the population because they use magic.
- Psionics are much more common, known, and understood. However most Athasians tend to react before thinking, and could potentially lash out and attack someone using psionics as well, especially in a mob/crowd scenario. Psionics can be used a bit more freely, but should still be used with caution in populated areas.
- Psychic Warriors are seen frequently as equals to Fighters in many ways within civilization.
- Psions and Erudites (which I allow in my campaigns) are commonly at odds with each other; Erudites see themselves as the true students of the Way, and see Psions as upstarts, while the Psions tend to find the Erudites a bit stuffy and stuck up (possibly because a great number of the Erudites are nobility).
- Wilders are pretty common, and the most likely direction people who discover a wild talent within themselves for psionics will take. They are most common among the lower-class citizens who can't affort academy training.
- Psychic Warriors are seen frequently as equals to Fighters in many ways within civilization.
Now, that is just the baseline which I draw the reaction of your average Athasian. Legally: Arcane magic is outlawed (preserving or defiling); Templar magic is legal (but "buerocracized" -- use of spells must be filed and recorded by the templarate, and stored in archives to keep track of the magic use of templarate members -- sometimes this is enforced by the SK, other times it is a structure developed and maintained by the templarate itself); Clerics and Druids are legal but find the cold shoulder that the Templars give them as a deterrent plus Druids tend to avoid the city-states completely. Psionics are legal, however your social status determines just how powerful you are allowed to get. Nobility is given more options in this than commoners or especially slaves.
And yes, I have had mob/crowd dynamics come into play before in a campaign, and had a party get trampled on, beaten, and even lynched by the people of a city-state just for using their magic (or psionics if the tension is high enough in the area with regards to magic) in public carelessly.
Hello,
I was hoping that some of you could enlighten me a bit on a few things that I am having trouble with. First, it is my understanding that arcane magic in Athas is held with suspicion at best, and at worst could have you landing in prison. How is Divine (element worship) magic received? Could the layman recognize any difference between the two? Secondly, are there any plot/story differences between the original boxed set and the revised edition? I have the Wanderer's Journal and it seems that the information in it about Draj conflicts with information found in the revised boxed set and in 3E Dark Sun products.
Good questions. 2e handled this by having overt signs of wizardly magic. Strange supernatural sounds and lights, mental responses, even sometimes glossy substances appearing on skin, etc.
3e psionics undermined our efforts to reproduce this. 3e and 3.5 psionic powers are each associated with different physical signs, just like arcane magic was in DS 2e. We chose to not adapt these rules in DS core, and thereby failed to preserve an important story aspect of Arcane magic on Dark Sun. I hope that we'll gradually realize that things really are more flexible than we thought. We'll fix those rules, replace the psionic vi, au, ma, me traces with something else, and make arcane magic as distinctive as its supposed to be.
Elemental clerics are usually easily identifiable and popular espicially water Clerics although Templars are suspicious of them. A Smart preserver could pose as an elemental Cleric as long as he didn't cast an obvious arcane spell like fireball (at least to someone who knows the difference).
Yeap - I am with Xlore on the fireball thing - I use the elemental spells lists put together by Sage, I think you could find them (the lists) in the Archive - they are great for the different elemental clerics to make them different.
But as has been stated, a clever Preserver with the right dress and a little knowledge of religion could pose as a cleric successfully. But only if they cast spells that would seem appropriate for the type of cleric they are posing as and properly hide their arcane gestures.
Beyond that you can easily hide under the cover of being a Cleric or Psion if you actually are one. I find that it makes sense for most preservers to be multi-classed so they have a solid cover story and the skills necessary to back it up. If not another spell casting class (or psionic power using), then Rouge or Bard work well as well since they give you a considerable number of extra skill points to spend on important skills for hiding your wizardry (such as Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Disguise, Hide, and Move Silently) or to convince people that you are a either a good spellcaster or a dangerous one that they should not tell on (Diplomacy and Intimidate).
Yeap - I am with Xlore on the fireball thing - I use the elemental spells lists put together by Sage, I think you could find them (the lists) in the Archive - they are great for the different elemental clerics to make them different.
I use the fire domain form the PHB. I'm a big believer in never giving Cleircs access to Fireball in any shape or form except maybe as a PrC ability and even than if it wasn't a full caster level Prc. Clerics should never have the ability to have efficent mass area offensive spells like wizards except perhaps vs undead or alignment type spells.
I use the fire domain form the PHB. I'm a big believer in never giving Cleircs access to Fireball in any shape or form except maybe as a PrC ability and even than if it wasn't a full caster level Prc. Clerics should never have the ability to have efficent mass area offensive spells like wizards except perhaps vs undead or alignment type spells.
If I recall correctly they get it as a 4th level spell on my spell list. They are ficken fire clerics! Shouldn't they be able to burn things?!?
If I recall correctly they get it as a 4th level spell on my spell list. They are ficken fire clerics! Shouldn't they be able to burn things?!?
Yes but not that fire spell. Cleric domains are bleeding a few to many spells off the wizards list while its virtually impossable for a wizard to cast Cure spells for example. The Fire cleric with Fireball as a 4th level spell can use metamagiced versions in higher level domain slots. Hell in DS I would play a Psion over an arcane caster or this Fireball throwing cleric. Fireball as a fire cleric spell overpowers Clerics even more IMHO and makes them overpowered vs Earth/Air/Water clerics.
I use the fire domain form the PHB. I'm a big believer in never giving Cleircs access to Fireball in any shape or form except maybe as a PrC ability and even than if it wasn't a full caster level Prc. Clerics should never have the ability to have efficent mass area offensive spells like wizards except perhaps vs undead or alignment type spells.
What about flamestrike, sound burst, all mass inflict spells, fire storm, and strom of vengeance - all spells that are listed in the PHB as cleric spells that contridict your mass area effect offensive spell thing - and that is ony from the regular cleric spell list - I did not even look at the domain spell lists.:D
Iuse sage's spell lists because I like to have my elemental clerics be different from 'core' clerics - and it is in keeping with the spirit of the 2e flavor too.
What about flamestrike, sound burst, all mass inflict spells, fire storm, and strom of vengeance - all spells that are listed in the PHB as cleric spells that contridict your mass area effect offensive spell thing - and that is ony from the regular cleric spell list - I did not even look at the domain spell lists.:D
Iuse sage's spell lists because I like to have my elemental clerics be different from 'core' clerics - and it is in keeping with the spirit of the 2e flavor too.
All inefficient when compared to wizard spells of their equivilent level. No problem with mass area Cleric spells just really efficient ones.
Damage cap for wizard spells is 1d6/level, for clerics it is 1d8/two levels (see fireball and flame strike). Also, cleric spells of the heavy artillery variety have smaller radius of effect most of the time. This is spelled out in many D&D book as guidelines for designing new spells.
On the other hand, flavour beats rules in my book, so I *also* have the fireball at fourth level for my fire clerics.
PS: Sorcerers can actually learn cure spells. They may learn spells not on their spell list, provided they can understand them. An arcane scroll of cure light wounds (scribed by a bard), and voila!, the sorcerer can cure spells. Rarely comes up, tough. And definitely not in Dark Sun.
As unlikely as it is, I have to agree with Zardnaar on a technical level.
Damage cap for wizard spells is 1d6/level, for clerics it is 1d8/two levels (see fireball and flame strike). Also, cleric spells of the heavy artillery variety have smaller radius of effect most of the time. This is spelled out in many D&D book as guidelines for designing new spells.
On the other hand, flavour beats rules in my book, so I *also* have the fireball at fourth level for my fire clerics.
PS: Sorcerers can actually learn cure spells. They may learn spells not on their spell list, provided they can understand them. An arcane scroll of cure light wounds (scribed by a bard), and voila!, the sorcerer can cure spells. Rarely comes up, tough. And definitely not in Dark Sun.
Whats wrong with agreeing with me:D There are other level 3-4 fire based spells. Even the fire domain in the PHB doesn't have Fireball as a Cleric spell- with good reason. Giving Clerics access to the best damage spell (harm), best Area offensive spell (Fireball and metamagiced Fireballs), best defensive and buff spells and healing is a bit much IMHO and mechanically makes wizards even weaker given the DS storyline mechanics to weaken the. Clerics and Druids weren't as strong in 2nd ed as they are in 3rd ed and the nerf wizards elements in Dark Sun helped offset their mechanical advantages.
If I recall correctly they get it as a 4th level spell on my spell list. They are ficken fire clerics! Shouldn't they be able to burn things?!?
Agreed. Athasian clerics, in my book, are nothing like the clerics defined in the PHB. Divine magic works... differently on Athas (well, all magic does). They have a fundamental link and connection to their elemental plane, and tend to be doing things to promote and help that element (or paraelement). Fire burns -- that's what it does. And I'm sorry, but I have a very hard time swallowing the notion that champions of the very plane of fire itself are restricted to "inefficient" means of catching things on fire. I like Ruhl-Than's lists, and use them for my clerics -- to me, they add a lot of mechanical flavor to the class -- especially as arcane magic users aren't exactly falling off trees in Athas -- they are (at least in my version of Dark Sun) the most rare of the spellcasters -- for very basic reasons (arcane magic use is well, a "lynch-able" offense).
Remember that the fire clerics are possibly the #1 most conflicted and confused of the elemental cleric types. There is so little fuel left on the world that the plane of fire (powers that be) push them to help restore Athas as best they can, if only to burn it down later. They are urged to go against their extreme pyromaniacal natures, and do very contradictory things. I expect any player in my campaigns willing to take the fire cleric mantle, to reflect that conflicted nature within themselves. Of course, one player had his fire cleric character go hunting for defilers, to pick a fight, and then burn everything around the defiler to "save the land by wiping out the defiler's fuel source before that defiler could ruin it all". A couple times, he'd not kill the defiler, but let the defiler move on, and would follow the him or her, until that defiler tried to cast spells again and then would burn down *that* fuel source too, the whole while getting such a perverse pleasure from it.
Yes but not that fire spell. Cleric domains are bleeding a few to many spells off the wizards list while its virtually impossable for a wizard to cast Cure spells for example. The Fire cleric with Fireball as a 4th level spell can use metamagiced versions in higher level domain slots. Hell in DS I would play a Psion over an arcane caster or this Fireball throwing cleric. Fireball as a fire cleric spell overpowers Clerics even more IMHO and makes them overpowered vs Earth/Air/Water clerics.
There are still a number of types of spells that Wizards have access to the Clerics do not. Addtionally, I personally restrict some of the things that Clerics could traditionally do.
1st: I don't use domains at all. The extra spell slots for domain spells are simply removed. This helps to compensate somewhat for the wider access to spells that my clerics enjoy.
2nd: Raise Dead and Resurrection are not cleric spells, but more specific spells are given to each element that are less generally potent. Only Druids can bring people back to life wholesale.
3rd: I don't automatically allow all spells cast to work. If the elemental spirits would be in opposition to the casting of a spell in a certain context they will not grant it. Thusly, a Water Cleric may not be able to heal a defiler even if he wants to. A Fire cleric may not be able to cast it's fireball spell if the spirits don't want him to burn something (because of it's future importance to having more stuff to burn), etc.
4th: Clerics are restricted in the types of weapons and armor they can use and what materials they can be made out of. This allows for an additional level of balance amoung the different types of clerics that was not present in the standard Cleric, but is built into the flavor of the DS cleric historically.
5th: Clerics can only cast spells that are within their elemental purview (or complete general in nature), a Fire cleric can never cast create water, or air walk, or any of the other spells that would otherwise be available to him that don't match his elemental alliegence.
As to the balance of the various types of clerics relative to eachother, you would have to actually take a look at my spell lists to determine that, wouldn't you? All of the elements have their strong and weak points, Fire is really good at offensive spells, Earth is good at defensive spells, Air is good at stealth and communication related magic, and water is good well keeping people alive and thriving in a harsh desert enviroment.