Just a quick question here, am I the only person who has thought that the brown tide may have been the actual turning of water into fertile dirt?
No, that was my interpretion as well.
No, that was my interpretion as well.
Really? thats very surprising to me. I have to admit that this is a recent thought for me, but one that I think I really like.
Perhaps they used the magic of the pristine tower to try and reverse this tide only to find that the use of the tower made the planet hotter increasing the rate of dessication.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=440166
It seems, to me, to clearly be a lifeshaping of the ocean itself...just like the Tower was used to lifeshape the sun into a different color, then the Tower was used to lifeshape the ocean into a more productive format.
I assume that the water turning to dirt would have resulted in an event clearly remembered as such, or The Day Earth Won Over Water, or some such.
It seems, to me, to clearly be a lifeshaping of the ocean itself...just like the Tower was used to lifeshape the sun into a different color, then the Tower was used to lifeshape the ocean into a more productive format.
It's all part of what's called the rebirth. The world was reborn, as land emerged from water, and then most of the people were reborn.
It's all part of what's called the rebirth. The world was reborn, as land emerged from water, and then most of the people were reborn.
There is a distinction between the two events. The brown tide precipitated the event known as the rebirth: the halfings destroyed the ocean's life giving properties and were forced to lifeshape the sun to kill the tide. Then, they judged themselves guilty of a crime against the world and decided to reinvent everything in the world, and themselves start anew in new forms, hence the rebirth.
There is a distinction between the two events. The brown tide precipitated the event known as the rebirth: the halfings destroyed the ocean's life giving properties and were forced to lifeshape the sun to kill the tide. Then, they judged themselves guilty of a crime against the world and decided to reinvent everything in the world, and themselves start anew in new forms, hence the rebirth.
The question isn't whether you can draw a valid distinction, but whether the halflings drew enough of a distinction to give the events separate names. To my knowledge, they did not. Rajaat seemed to have both in mind when he argued that "the rebirth was a mistake" (WC). To Rjaat, restoring the Blue Age and destroying the Rebirth Races were inseparable. Why? Beats me. But that's how he seems to frame it.
You said:
I assume that the water turning to dirt would have resulted in an event clearly remembered as such, or The Day Earth Won Over Water, or some such.
In the record we have, that's not how they clearly remember it. So maybe your assumption is mistaken, or maybe the record is incomplete.
Could be, as Abbey suggested, that the halflings were divided. Maybe the lifeshapers who were for the change, became the Pyreen, while there were other life-shapers who opposed the change.
In the record we have, that's not how they clearly remember it. So maybe your assumption is mistaken, or maybe the record is incomplete.
Brown tide's description doesn't sound like dirt is all I'm saying.
There's also evidence that one might read as suggest a *third* branch of thought among the life-shapers. The ones that *left*, and perhaps put others that could not leave in stasis (e.g. in Cleft Rock), until they came back for them.
What are the other two groups?
The nature masters beat the nature benders. Then we are left just with nature masters. They screw up the ocean. Some of them flee in various ways, the rest stay behind to induce the rebirth.
I'm only seeing two groups here, not three: Those who left before the rebirth (and may in some cases be unaware that event happened), and those who induced the rebirth.
Brown tide's description doesn't sound like dirt is all I'm saying.
? Then I guess I lost the thread. Doesn't sounds like dirt to me either.
What are the other two groups?
The nature masters beat the nature benders. Then we are left just with nature masters.
Oh? I wasn't aware that the sources said that it was a war of extermination. It said they lost, not that they vanished.
They screw up the ocean. Some of them flee in various ways, the rest stay behind to induce the rebirth.
I'm only seeing two groups here, not three: Those who left before the rebirth (and may in some cases be unaware that event happened), and those who induced the rebirth.
And yet Rajaat somehow hooks up with a bunch of knowledgeable halflings that want to reverse the rebirth. In RaFoaDK, Hamanu seems convinced that the halflings were divided into those that wanted the Rebirth and those that did not, and that for some reason, Rajaat's reason for not acting directly against the world, the reason that he acted through proxies, had do do with those halflings that disagreed with him.
Consider how the original sources describe how Pyreen act -- usually through proxies, by promoting the work of adventurers, occasionally helping them in subtle ways.
? Then I guess I lost the thread. Doesn't sounds like dirt to me either.
Check the title of the thread again, and the content of the first post ;)
Hamanu seems convinced that the halflings were divided into those that wanted the Rebirth and those that did not
In that case yeah, you find yourself with the halflings that left, those that stayed and wanted the rebirth, and those that stayed but did not desire the rebirth. Three.
Halflings that did not accept racial culpability for screwing up the world (those that said No to the rebirth) might have maintained as much of their civlization and knowledge as they could, and thus be even more advanced than today's rhul-thaun. The halflings that allied themselves with Rajaat might have been envoys of that group(s)...group(s) which may still exist to this today.
Maybe the Brown Tide is a metaphor for a huge increase of Earth Clerics in the halfling ranks - who I would assume would have worshipped the Water Element if any. The Earth Clerics conducted a huge ceremony that opened a gate into "somewhere" and drained a majority of the water away - in a last ditch effort, the other halflings used the PT to make a focused strike at the gate and in doing so, changed the color of the sun and blasted the gate - and a majority of the earth worshipping halflings - out of existence.
Now, following my twisted trip, following the Rebirth, a gifted but physically twisted pyreen was born that had a huge affinity for nature, beyond the norm for his kind. Through this heightened connection, the really peeved Lords of Water manipulated Rajaat into returning Athas to the Blue Age, where they had been the supreme power of all the other elements.
Why do you have to ruin my fun! :PThe only problem with that theory Kal is that canon specifically states the BT came about due to the rhulisti trying to increase the ocean's life force (or something to that effect).
, that's what they thought they were doing but they were actually being tricked by THECA (the Tricky Halfling Earth Cleric Alliance) into creating more land.Check the title of the thread again, and the content of the first post ;)
In that case yeah, you find yourself with the halflings that left, those that stayed and wanted the rebirth, and those that stayed but did not desire the rebirth. Three.
Halflings that did not accept racial culpability for screwing up the world (those that said No to the rebirth) might have maintained as much of their civlization and knowledge as they could, and thus be even more advanced than today's rhul-thaun. The halflings that allied themselves with Rajaat might have been envoys of that group(s)...group(s) which may still exist to this today.
I always reckoned that those halflings are the ones that became the Shadow Giants.
Could be that the ones that left were allied to the ones that rejected the rebirth, in which case it would be two groups. But I'm thinking that the ones that left (although the group probably included those that went into stasis) were taking responsibility for what they did to the world, and saying the best they could do for the world at this point would be to leave it. They might find the position of both other groups equally repugnant ...
My guess is that the ones that left are pretty darn advanced.
The only problem with that theory Kal is that canon specifically states the BT came about due to the rhulisti trying to increase the ocean's life force (or something to that effect).
Not quite. When you look at what the sources say specifically, and think through the implications of why they'd want to be increasing the ocean productivity (oceans, unless tampered with, are generally very productive!) right after a world war, some interesting ideas emerge.
Could be that the ones that left were allied to the ones that rejected the rebirth, in which case it would be two groups. But I'm thinking that the ones that left (although the group probably included those that went into stasis) were taking responsibility for what they did to the world, and saying the best they could do for the world at this point would be to leave it. They might find the position of both other groups equally repugnant ...
What you're describing might be possible but it's not what I meant.
Those that left for secluded spots, or went into hibernation, or the likes, did so before the rebirth was something on the agenda, and they did so because it looked like the brown tide was unstoppable and would destroy halfling civilization altogether...but the ecosystem and the world were saved through the rebirth. The hibernating halflings under Cleft Rock, for example, are probably unaware the rebirth occured and are still to this day awaiting some preset paramater, or an internal clock, to revive them long after the effects of the catastrophe would have (hopeful) dissipated.
So those that secluded themselves or hibernated did not do so out of guilt but survival, hoping to ride out the eco-catastrophe and come out alive in the end.
Some other group stayed behind - did not flee - and thus were around when the rebirth was proposed and implemented, and they might have refused to participate, but just stayed there, watching, and might have plotted the rebirth's undoing since then. At least that's what the RaFoaDK halflings seem to have done...waiting all that time, unsure what to do or think about this 'rebirth', until Rajaat found them and together they came up with the 'undoing the world back to the Blue Age' scheme.
I disagree with the ones that left not knowing about the Rebirth. It might not have happened before they left, but the dissapearance of the Messenger seems to conveniently timed to have nothing to do with the events leading to Rajaat reemerging. I'm inferring that the ones that left have some sort of contact with at least one of the groups on Athas.
The hibernating halflings under Cleft Rock, for example, are probably unaware the rebirth occured and are still to this day awaiting some preset paramater, or an internal clock, to revive them long after the effects of the catastrophe would have (hopeful) dissipated.
There I agree. Awaiting the "Return" described in those old halfling docs.
Some other group stayed behind - did not flee - and thus were around when the rebirth was proposed and implemented, and they might have refused to participate, but just stayed there, watching, and might have plotted the rebirth's undoing since then. At least that's what the RaFoaDK halflings seem to have done...waiting all that time, unsure what to do or think about this 'rebirth', until Rajaat found them and together they came up with the 'undoing the world back to the Blue Age' scheme.
Which given the info we have, was never much of a scheme. If you have power to physically restore the sun and oceans, then that's all you'd need to restore the Blue Age. Everyone else would just drown. Why go through the bother of getting everyone to kill each other, unless, as Abbey suggested, that it's some sort of political move. The same reason that some governments in our world fight through proxies rather than using their own big nukes.
they changed the water itself into rich, fertile earth that spread throughout the water much like a tide or perhaps like the wave of obsidian that formed the dead lands. They paniced and ended up moving athas away from both the planes of water and earth and towards those of air and fire when they used the pristine tower to stop the brown tide.
I imagine that it was rajaats discovery of this that lead him to the idea of fooling around with power of the elemental planes, and the eventual disaster that would lead to the dead lands.
That was pretty insightful and well thought out Oninotaki.
Why thank you
The effects of dumping huge amounts of fertile soil into the ocean would be diasterous causing emense algae blooms and virtually stripping the ocean of it's oxygen, thusly killing most of the fish and marine mammals.
Thats actually really cool to know. I dont imagine that the nature masters wanted to add fertile dirt to the water, just tap into the fertility of the plane of earth. However since they didnt really know what they were doing they ended up turing large amounts of the water into fertile dirt that could have had the effect of what you described! Thanks for that sweet bit of info!
Thats actually really cool to know. I dont imagine that the nature masters wanted to add fertile dirt to the water, just tap into the fertility of the plane of earth. However since they didnt really know what they were doing they ended up turing large amounts of the water into fertile dirt that could have had the effect of what you described! Thanks for that sweet bit of info!
That's why I never had trouble imagining that the brown tide was really just something that simple. Hell maybe it was spreading uncontrolably and had to be stopped, but that doesn't mean that it was anything more then dirt being created.
Brown tide's description doesn't sound like dirt is all I'm saying.
What are the other two groups?
The nature masters beat the nature benders. Then we are left just with nature masters. They screw up the ocean. Some of them flee in various ways, the rest stay behind to induce the rebirth.
I'm only seeing two groups here, not three: Those who left before the rebirth (and may in some cases be unaware that event happened), and those who induced the rebirth.
Well, my theory concerning this "3rd group" maybe the halflings of Birthright. IIRC, they came from Aebrynis' Plane of Shadow. There maybe no connection, but I saw a possible connection at the time I heard about BR's halfling origin. The Cold Rider of that campaign world and it's involvement may have just been the latest in LONG, shadowy, interplanar journey.
If it was referring to the spread of land, it does not explain why the halfings chose to change the sun in order to stop it. the description of their action is they used the new, more hostile yellow sun to erradicate the force they had created.
The prism pentad series had sadira create a patch of something akin to the brown tide, when she used defiler magic in the presence of the pristine tower.
Lastly...there were no groups of halflings that told rajaat of the blue age. he found the degenerates of the forest ridge and the primitive rhul thraun in the jagged cliffs, and through years of study and searching the world came to his own conclusion. the halflings seemed largely indifferent to his promise of returning the world to them, save the few that ended up in the black after his war.
the nature of the description in the TSR timeline evokes a life stealing wave, a corrupt life essence akin to defiling. Also, the halflings of the blue age already lived on land, just what composed small islands (akin to the ancient swamp on which tyragi was founded).
If it was referring to the spread of land, it does not explain why the halfings chose to change the sun in order to stop it. the description of their action is they used the new, more hostile yellow sun to erradicate the force they had created.
The prism pentad series had sadira create a patch of something akin to the brown tide, when she used defiler magic in the presence of the pristine tower.
Lastly...there were no groups of halflings that told rajaat of the blue age. he found the degenerates of the forest ridge and the primitive rhul thraun in the jagged cliffs, and through years of study and searching the world came to his own conclusion. the halflings seemed largely indifferent to his promise of returning the world to them, save the few that ended up in the black after his war.
I don't see the two concepts as being mutually exclusive.
It could have been a wave of mutated life essense that was changing water into fertile soil as the name and results suggest.
I've allready described the effects of dumping large quantities of soil into the ocean and it fits the life stealing description quite well. The algae blooms and bacteria literally out compete everything else in the water and pollute it with their waste so that no animals or other plants can survive.
It follows then that the halflings would be desperate to stop this from spreading any further, since the expiriement had gone wildly out of control and threatened the consume all the of the worlds oceans killing countless species and threatening the entire planets ecosystem.
To this end they harnessed the power of the sun to kill the algae blooms and stop the brown tide: A soil creating lifeshaped creation.
I'm not claiming that this is the correct interpretation, just that it is how I see the events. I think it fits the facts well enough.
correct is a funny term to use in a game of dice and make-believe anyways...
during the cleansing wars, defilers through their use of the world caused the seas to recede, turning into dust. the brown tide might have been a similar effect, a parallel between nature mastery, and nature bending. maybe only Brown will ever truly know.