Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 joboo Dec 11, 2006 11:25:55	As we all know athas.org is doing a great job converting old darksun material into 3.5 edition rules. As the sole *Official* Darksun team I think that it is important for them to post things like canon material, and sift through the absurd and really sharpen up the this Campaign World. I think it is an honor that wizards of the coast granted this world a chance to revive itself, with some of the greatest fans directing the outcome of the world. A really great posting of a revised Athasian time line with details and noting what is coomon knowledge and speculation is needed. I think newbies and vetrans alike are tired of asking and awsering questions about these things. Also I think its unfair to those who are new to this great campaign world to have to find and research a bunch of second edition material when I think all of the relevent information could be posted on athas.org. I would love to see that website eventually become an interactive source book.
#2 thebrax Dec 11, 2006 11:49:07	As we all know athas.org is doing a great job converting old darksun material into 3.5 edition rules. As the sole *Official* Darksun team I think that it is important for them to post things like canon material, and sift through the absurd and really sharpen up the this Campaign World. I think it is an honor that wizards of the coast granted this world a chance to revive itself, with some of the greatest fans directing the outcome of the world. A really great posting of a revised Athasian time line with details and noting what is coomon knowledge and speculation is needed. I think newbies and vetrans alike are tired of asking and awsering questions about these things. Also I think its unfair to those who are new to this great campaign world to have to find and research a bunch of second edition material when I think all of the relevent information could be posted on athas.org. I would love to see that website eventually become an interactive source book. I like the idea of an interactive source book, and we've actually been talking about something like that. But reproducing old 2e sources that are available on PDF would violate our agreement with WotC. I do not find it unfair to expect new DMs to purchase the $4 PDF of the original box set in order to get the wonderful "Wanderer's Journal," or a couple other old sups to get the more detailed campaign information. But it might be a good idea to have a simple timeline, with links to the sources where you can get more info. And when that source is a PDF, linking to WotC's PDF site. The only place where the agreement gets a little clunky and difficult to work with is with respect to old Dungeon and Polyhedron articles which one *can't* access easily on PDF. On the bright side, the rules material there mostly either has been or is in the process of being converted to 3.5, some in our core rules, some in Terrors of the Dead Lands, etc. Not much we can do about the old Dungeon magazine adventures, though. LC made a few references to them, but they are hard to get ahold of, and our agreement does not allow us to convert or reproduce them. But then, converting the old adventures would take time away from other cool projects, such as new adventures.
#3 Pennarin Dec 11, 2006 12:17:19	You musn't have been on the boards when some newbie called Pennarin asked this very question. I'll let the others answer this one ;)
#4 joboo Dec 11, 2006 15:28:39	Perhaps the relevent material can just be rewritten instead of copying or using the second edition material. Maybe they can write about what they already know and put into their own words so that it is fresh. This would allow them to fix any inconsistacies between all of the source material. athas.org is a 3.5 edition Darksun so it would only be right if the source material was clear and streamlined. I just think athas.org should revise all of the 2nd edition material and clarify the crap that everyone argues whether or not the material is "canon". Make material canon by creating your own Darksun source material instead of linking it to the out dated books.
#5 thebrax Dec 11, 2006 15:43:41	Perhaps the relevent material can just be rewritten instead of copying or using the second edition material. Maybe they can write about what they already know and put into their own words so that it is fresh. That would violate the agreement. It also seems like a bad use of our time. I would rather develop new projects, adventures, setting material, etc. The materials are out there for anyone to buy. We are writers, not pirates.
#6 kalthandrix Dec 11, 2006 15:51:48	Arrrrrr [inside joke]
#7 thebrax Dec 11, 2006 15:55:41	:D OK, I'll rephrase. Our organization exists to write, not to pirate.
#8 jon_oracle_of_athas Dec 11, 2006 16:35:27	Did someone say pirate... err... Abalach-Re?
#9 elonarc Dec 11, 2006 17:04:52	*teleports assassins*
#10 Pennarin Dec 11, 2006 17:36:37	Rewriting the Timeline, for example, would solve many problems bult also create new ones, and fans would still be as unsatisfied as before...except that by now we're quite good at working around the existing problems since we've discussed most of the points of the Timeline on these boards and on the list, or on the bureaus. For example, the demons, devils, gythyanki, and the astral plane are minimaly mentionned/used in new products. Those elements of the setting can't be fixed/erased without causing trouble or displeasing fans, but its possible to work around those elements, never actually mentionning them in the texts. That way DMs can choose to have or not those elements in their personal campaigns.
#11 joboo Dec 11, 2006 17:59:46	Interesting, I guess if paraphrasing, reworking and reclarifying material is plagerism or pirating than perhaps it is a waste of time. It seems to me it is what writers do. Don't you think that Darksun needs a fresh view at what has occured in the past? It seems a little ridiculous that this has not been considered already. There are not many people that know and have read all of the novels, all of the Darksun Setting books, and suppliment guides. I am not saying that athas.org should copy all of them down or rewrite each one. I am just saying that they need to be drawn from and written by some one that can make it easy for those new to Darksun to understand what is truly official material and what to expect from this campaign world. A nice thorough general overview that is all. Could some one write flavor text and a general history of each region? A world history and a world view? A time line? Just take a look at what wizards of the coast has done with their campaign settings. We have only half of the material that they do if that. It just seems like it could be done with the talented team that they have. But it must be too easy to refer prospective players some where else to get their information. What is important to Darksun? What kind of things do most people argue about on this forum? These things could be resolved and this forum would be talking about other things instead of the same old thing. I bet some of the people that work for athas.org has written enough awnsers to the common questions on this forum so many times that they would already have 50 general guides for new gamers. I know their knowledgable and I know they are very active on this forum. I just would like to see it all in one coherent form.
#12 cnahumck Dec 11, 2006 18:33:19	There are a few problems with what you want. First, there is a large lack of consistency in the existing stuff. But as I will explain later, this is a good thing. Second, all you need to understand the setting, and to explain things are three products. The Wanderer's Journal, The Wanderer's Chronicle, and the Official Timeline of Athas. These tell you a lot of history, and get the ball rolling. Third, in order to allow players to enjoy DS3.5, athas.org needs to have rules that work. I think most people are happy that they have put out dragon rules, rather than working to describe areas. Fourth, that said there are two products that are in the works that I know of that advance the timeline and help direct things. The first is Lost Cities (which I am helping with) and the other is Secrets of the Dead Lands (which is actually something that TSR started before the fall and is something that needs to be updated to 3.5 as per the agreement with Wizards, and you can't do that if you don't have 3.5 rules that work.) Also, if you want more stuff look at Mind Lords of the Last Sea, Kreen of Athas, and Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs. Which brings me to my fifth point. Each book that comes out puts a new idea out there as far as the past goes. Each book does revise it, but only from one persons point of view. The end of the PP series allowed for the campaign to go in many different directions. Things are wide open. And Finally, it is good to have inconsistencies. When we answer questions in a good story, it should only serve to give us more questions. A good book will tie these together in a way that is satisfying at the end (or give you the tools to do it yourself). We can't do that with a gaming setting because this then makes us just put down the book. This thing called Dark Sun is a living breathing thing. It needs to adapt and change, and it will do things that seem to contradict itself. It's history will change over time, and will be revised. But it will do this revision through the inclusion of new voices telling that story: all of them subjective. If all the questions are answered, then what's the point? Plus, multiple ideas allows for individual DM's to come to there own conclusions, and present their games like they want them to be. Ambiguity makes for a better setting. (Plus there is a lot of history that ain't detailed at all).
#13 thebrax Dec 11, 2006 19:13:00	Interesting, I guess if paraphrasing, reworking and reclarifying material is plagerism or pirating than perhaps it is a waste of time. It seems to me it is what writers do. Really? Which writers do that? Don't you think that Darksun needs a fresh view at what has occured in the past? It seems a little ridiculous that this has not been considered already. Who says that it hasn't been considered already? There are not many people that know and have read all of the novels, all of the Darksun Setting books, and suppliment guides. I am not saying that athas.org should copy all of them down or rewrite each one. I am just saying that they need to be drawn from and written by some one that can make it easy for those new to Darksun to understand what is truly official material and what to expect from this campaign world. A nice thorough general overview that is all. Ah, now there I agree with you. And we've discussed the need for that as well. Could some one write flavor text and a general history of each region? We're working that up for a very large area that takes in Kurn and Eldaarich, in an area called the Trembling Plains. Another team is doing that for an area called the Dead Lands. A world history and a world view? NO. We're developing that area by area, keeping a careful eye to avoid inconsistency. A time line? Lost Cities of the Trembling Plains has a timeline of events that affect that region. Just take a look at what wizards of the coast has done with their campaign settings. We have only half of the material that they do if that. We have considerably less than half the material as the current WotC campaign settings. Obviously, when you can pay people to work full time, you get more material. I bet some of the people that work for athas.org has written enough awnsers to the common questions on this forum so many times that they would already have 50 general guides for new gamers. True, but if we took the time to organize it, that's time that we would not be spending developing and organizing other projects. I just would like to see it all in one coherent form. If someone else wants to go through and organize stuff, from different conversations here, and submit it as an article, we'd be glad to look it over. In the past, other cool projects have come out of fan conversations like Teos' ecology project.
#14 joboo Dec 11, 2006 21:28:21	Really? Which writers do that? Well I am thinking specifically I apologize. The Forgotten Realms is an old campaign setting that has been around for a while. When making the new edition writers had to obtain their information from other sources. This can be done with out quoting directly. If you consider repeating any ideas for Darksun in your own words an act of piracy; then, is using any ideas from the campaign setting the same thing? I am sorry if I offended you but I just think that having a resource that reveals hints and flavor of the Darksun Campaign Setting to the gaming community is a good thing. I also believe that athas.org has some talented writers and could develop a resource much better that any that was offered in the past. They seem to know more about the campaign setting and the flavor of the setting than even the old writers of Tsr. Those writers were working for money hence quanity, but athas.org has genuine fans and players who do this for FUN. It is hard work, don't get me wrong, but there is more enthuisim in the work that has been created recently. The team bends over backwards for the Darksun community and fans. For me to have this conversation with some of those members proves it. They keep interested and involved and I am glad they have lasted as long as they have. I have been following their development from the begining. Keeping the fan base has obviously been important to athas.org so I understand why they avoid the controversial topics, these could even be mentioned in the material in an ambigous way hinting to one thought and then another, but providing the commoners point of view which may not be insightful at all. This could just add mystery to the Darksun world. Players need to be mystified as well as learn the various points of view. Some wizards believe that other worlds exist beyond the Grey, most dismiss this notion however, as the mad teachings of a Defiler who has been deceased ages ago. Give the new comers something to ponder. Forgive me I am not a writer just a painter and a fan.
#15 thebrax Dec 11, 2006 21:46:21	Well I am thinking specifically I apologize. The Forgotten Realms is an old campaign setting that has been around for a while. When making the new edition writers had to obtain their information from other sources. Forgotten Realms can make its old books obselete because they are working directly for WotC, under WotC's instructions, and making money for WotC. For us to do what the FR guys do, would be piracy, since unlike the FR guys we don't have permission. This can be done with out quoting directly. If you consider repeating any ideas for Darksun in your own words an act of piracy; then, is using any ideas from the campaign setting the same thing? We quote the sources all the time. The issue isn't whether we quote or paraphrase, but whether we're referencing the old books, or trying to replace them. If I understand you correctly, you said earlier that you don't want people to have to look up any of the old material. That would require either that WotC give us permission, or it would require us to break our agreement with WotC and become pirates. Setting out to make the old books obselete so that no one had to buy them or look them up, without permission of the copyright holders, would be piracy. And in my eyes, it would be worse than piracy, since we're operating under an agreement with WotC; it would be a breach of trust and of contract. I am sorry if I offended you You did not offend me, Joboo. I appreciate the kind things that you've said about our writers. I'm just trying to answer your question as clearly as I know how, to explain to you the legal and practical limitations that we're working with. but I just think that having a resource that reveals hints and flavor of the Darksun Campaign Setting to the gaming community is a good thing. So do I. And that's something that we can do, eventually. Having online sources that everyone could get all the stuff from the WJ and other sources would also be a nice thing, but that would require us to do a bad thing -- to break trust with WotC. So we'll have to get by without all-inclusive references until some rich billionaire fan buys the whole thing up for us. I also believe that athas.org has some talented writers and could develop a resource much better that any that was offered in the past. They seem to know more about the campaign setting and the flavor of the setting than even the old writers of Tsr. Those writers were working for money hence quanity, but athas.org has genuine fans and players who do this for FUN. It is hard work, don't get me wrong, but there is more enthuisim in the work that has been created recently. The team bends over backwards for the Darksun community and fans. For me to have this conversation with some of those members proves it. They keep interested and involved and I am glad they have lasted as long as they have. I have been following their development from the begining. I agree. The two main limitations are time, and intellectual property rights. Our whole right to have an official dark sun site depends on an agreement that we made with WotC, so it's imperative that we honor our side of the agreement. Forgive me I am not a writer just a painter and a fan I assure you that Dark Sun needs its painters as much as its writers! There's a lot of great art to do, and we're always welcoming contributions!
#16 Zardnaar Dec 11, 2006 22:31:25	While not canon I'm tinkering around with an unofficial timeline that goes up to FY 1000 and are doing a campaign setting set during that period. Is that what you more or less mean by your post. You would like to see new official material that advances the timeline while not contradicting the older material?
#17 joboo Dec 12, 2006 0:26:19	The Brax, thank you for your imput I appreciate your feedback. Since the agreement with Wotc is to point a finger to the old Darksun material and not give away too many details. Could there be a way to inform basic ideas to the gaming community while directing them to the sources without breaking Wotc's agreement? Perhaps letting the old sources take care of the details, while giving enough teaser information to get a good feel for the campaign setting. This wouldn't take as much work as my original (hope) plan a full out source book. It kind of is a bad deal that Wotc is actually in a way holding athas.org back from allowing them to update the campaign setting. I am not putting down Wotc by any means. It's just that I have wanted to see this project become a full blown 3.5 refreshed campaign setting. Hey, athas.org is just doing what they can with what they got. Well to all of you on the team, good luck and keep up with the great work.
#18 thebrax Dec 12, 2006 1:39:48	The Brax, thank you for your imput I appreciate your feedback. Since the agreement with Wotc is to point a finger to the old Darksun material and not give away too many details. Could there be a way to inform basic ideas to the gaming community while directing them to the sources without breaking Wotc's agreement? Perhaps letting the old sources take care of the details, while giving enough teaser information to get a good feel for the campaign setting. This wouldn't take as much work as my original (hope) plan a full out source book. It kind of is a bad deal that Wotc is actually in a way holding athas.org back from allowing them to update the campaign setting. I am not putting down Wotc by any means. It's just that I have wanted to see this project become a full blown 3.5 refreshed campaign setting. Hey, athas.org is just doing what they can with what they got. Well to all of you on the team, good luck and keep up with the great work. We are allowed to update the campaign setting. Our agreement, as I understand it, simply prevents us from massively reproducing information from a source. The way I understand it, if we're updating a list or a chart, we should completely reproduce the chart. When I'm writing Prison-State of Eldaarich, probably every bit if information from the WC in Eldaarich's going to appear in that supplement, because I'm greatly expanding on the information. The info on Eldaarich in the WC is only a couple pages, and Prison-State of Eldaarich is well over 50 pages. But we can't go reproducing all of the info in the WC, or rewriting all of City-State of Tyr, regardless of how much we paraphrase. For that reason, we've chosen to flesh out the cities that hadn't been closely developed in the WJ and WC. Draj, Kurn, Eldaarich, Balic, Celik, Urik, Raam ... they are all getting more attention. Sure, if we were FR, we'd focus first on updating the old stuff, but that's as much for money reasons as anything -- fewer hours work, and sooner to have a publishable product. With us, it's the other way around -- we're starting by fleshing out the less familliar places. It's easier for DMs to update Tyr and such themselves, than flesh out an entirely new city from scratch.