Alphatia gone:
Many were sad to see Alphatia gone, but it leaves an interesting situation. What will fill the power vacuum it left? Heldann is one obvious answer, though there could be more. Also, there is always the chance that Alphatia will be brought back to the surface. I expect this will happen IMC some day.
Alfheim gone:
I think this created even more dislike by fans for WotI than Alphatia's fate did. However, I see loads of adventure potential here. Not only does it bring the Shadowelves more into the open, but the process of bringing Alfheim back would make a great campaign.
Glantri with Clerics:
This I didn't like at all. It doesn't create anything interesting, it simply waters out an interesting feature of the setting.
Day of Dread/Weakening of magic:
Again, I don't see anything interesting about this. In fact the whole powering down of Mystara was a mistake IMO. Sure there were traces of that from the Glantri Gaz on, but Mystara being high magic is something essential to the setting. Changing the magic might work, but taking it away isn't doing anything.
Thyatis Broken:
This is something else that I didn't like. I dont find a Ruined Empire very interesting. Maybe there is something I'm not seeing here? Perhaps if they were to take the path of Interwar Germany eventually becoming an evil superpower under Hattian domination, that would be interesting.
Heldann emerging:
This was from the Voyage of the Princess Ark, but really a cool feature in the Post WotI Mystara. I like the Heldannic Knights and their moral ambigiousity.
Etienne d'Ambreville:
I wonder what they were planning with this guy. If they wanted to bring him back as a mortal, it might all be part of the "powering down" of Mystara which I mentioned before. No, we cant have a God walking around in the setting. Lets make him lose his immortality. The Etienne situation has a lot of potential though, but IMO he needs to end up as an Immortal at the end. If not after Mark of Amber, then at a later stage.
Darokin, Rockhome etc:
These nations are weakened by WotI. Again, I don't like weak. It doesnt make for interesting gaming. Darokin could also venture onto some dark path, but it means scrapping everything Darokin ever stood for. For Rockhome, I don't like what the Alamancs have been doing either.
Karameikos:
As with Glantri, the fundamental concepts of Karameikos are being watered out. The School of Magecraft would eliminate the "weak on magic" feature. The weakening of Thyatis means they no longer have anything to fear from that direction. And finally with K:KoA Bargle and Von Hendriks are gone. The only potential conflict we are getting in return is Desmond Kelvin being bitter.
What are other peoples thoughts on the post WotI situation?
Havard
Alphatia gone:
Alfheim gone:
Glantri with Clerics:
Heldann emerging:
I definitely agree with your assessment of these.
Day of Dread/Weakening of magic:
The Week with No Magic is integral to many aspects of the post-Wrath setting, including e.g. the Red Curse as a widespread effect on the Savage Coast.
The Day of Dread simply amplifies the existing effect (which was random rather than constant) and is clearly explained by the huge amount of Radiance used by Etienne during WotI (to destroy Alphatia).
Thyatis Broken:
This is something else that I didn't like. I dont find a Ruined Empire very interesting. Maybe there is something I'm not seeing here? Perhaps if they were to take the path of Interwar Germany eventually becoming an evil superpower under Hattian domination, that would be interesting.
I also agree here -- Thyatis didn't fall after the Spike Assault, why should it be significantly weakened after WotI, when the conditions are much better (no Alphatia around, western countries forced to guard against Hule)?
OTOH, I don't think another Hattian evil power is needed -- there's already the Heldannic Order in that role.
Etienne d'Ambreville:
I wonder what they were planning with this guy. If they wanted to bring him back as a mortal, it might all be part of the "powering down" of Mystara which I mentioned before. No, we cant have a God walking around in the setting. Lets make him lose his immortality. The Etienne situation has a lot of potential though, but IMO he needs to end up as an Immortal at the end. If not after Mark of Amber, then at a later stage.
Well, he's definitely not the only God walking around -- Vanya has a very similar role in Thyatis, for example.
I do agree that Etienne should come back as an Immortal. There are also several ways to obtain this effect, and it can be used in the campaign (Mark of Amber, or having him work back up to Immortality by using the Radiance -- perhaps with some help from Rafiel, perhaps alone).
Etienne is definitely an interesting character -- full of that moral ambiguity that seems to be the setting's trademark.
Darokin, Rockhome etc:
I have different ideas on these: while I can easily understand a weakened Darokin (indeed, considering the nature of this nation, it would be odd if it survived a decade more), I think Rockhome was given a bad coverage during WotI. Just like Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, this nation suddenly gives up any semblance of reasonable foreign politics due to its Immortal patron wish -- yet, commits itself to risky ventures (why fighting for Oenkmar?) and falls into a civil war that is entirely within the power of Kagyar to stop.
A real mess, IMO.
Karameikos:
As with Glantri, the fundamental concepts of Karameikos are being watered out. The School of Magecraft would eliminate the "weak on magic" feature. The weakening of Thyatis means they no longer have anything to fear from that direction. And finally with K:KoA Bargle and Von Hendriks are gone. The only potential conflict we are getting in return is Desmond Kelvin being bitter.
Here the core idea of WotI and post-WotI was strengthening Karameikos to make it one of the core players in the KW -- something it couldn't be in the GAZ era, since it had a modest economy, the weakest army around, and a lot of internal problems.
Post-WotI, Karameikos gets buffed up with a couple of elf clans, a large number of Alphatian exiles and army survivors, and two of its biggest problems (Bargle & Von Hendricks) are removed.
Personally, I think the basic idea might have been good -- it would have been unreasonable to have Karameikos survive at that level of strength.
Yet, the buff-up was hasty at best.
At the very least, the Alphatians in Karameikos are out of place -- there's no real reason for them to settle in Karameikos, where the upper class is composed mostly of Thyatians, nor there is a good reason for the Thyatian upper class to welcome a large influx of Alphatians.
Tylion himself has little reason to create his school in Karameikos: with the destruction of Alphatia, most of his Alphatian competitors for Immortality are gone, so it would be easier for him to start back in Denwarf-Hurgon or somewhere else in former Alphatia than in Karameikos (that is, right between Glantri and Thyatis, where most of the remaining high-level wizards would be found).
The Week with No Magic is integral to many aspects of the post-Wrath setting, including e.g. the Red Curse as a widespread effect on the Savage Coast.
The Day of Dread simply amplifies the existing effect (which was random rather than constant) and is clearly explained by the huge amount of Radiance used by Etienne during WotI (to destroy Alphatia).
I don't mind the Week with No Magic, especially with the modifications mentioned in the Blacklore Thread. Effects such as the spreading of the Red Curse are interesting so I am quite happy with them.
The Day of Dread means that no spell can last longer than a year and even things dependant on magical items or other perment magical effects will break down once a year, forcing Flying Castles to land, magical prisons to release their prisoners etc etc.
I wouldn't mind reducing the magical power in Mystara somewhat, but I keep thinking there are better ways of doing that. I'd rather cut down on the every day magic of Mystara and keep the spectacular effects.
I also agree here -- Thyatis didn't fall after the Spike Assault, why should it be significantly weakened after WotI, when the conditions are much better (no Alphatia around, western countries forced to guard against Hule)?
OTOH, I don't think another Hattian evil power is needed -- there's already the Heldannic Order in that role.
A regrowth of the Empire in one way or the other is definately needed to make Thyatis more interesting once again. If it doesn't go down the dark path, then perhaps it can rise in a redeeming way, getting rid of some of its dark sides (slavery, repression of women) and rising as a power of light?
This does not neccesarily have to make it an uninteresting and stereotypical nation.
Well, he's definitely not the only God walking around -- Vanya has a very similar role in Thyatis, for example.
I do agree that Etienne should come back as an Immortal. There are also several ways to obtain this effect, and it can be used in the campaign (Mark of Amber, or having him work back up to Immortality by using the Radiance -- perhaps with some help from Rafiel, perhaps alone).
Etienne is definitely an interesting character -- full of that moral ambiguity that seems to be the setting's trademark.
Yeah, Etienne is a favorite. I'm thinking the most interesting path for him would be what you describe: Etienne returns after Mark of Amber as a mortal, but eventually regains Immortality by the use of the Radience.
I have different ideas on these: while I can easily understand a weakened Darokin (indeed, considering the nature of this nation, it would be odd if it survived a decade more), I think Rockhome was given a bad coverage during WotI. Just like Ochalea and the Pearl Islands, this nation suddenly gives up any semblance of reasonable foreign politics due to its Immortal patron wish -- yet, commits itself to risky ventures (why fighting for Oenkmar?) and falls into a civil war that is entirely within the power of Kagyar to stop.
A real mess, IMO.
Agreed.
I think it would be interesting to work the Known World into a sort of story ark, where at the end these nations would end up more or less as per AC1000, the main difference being the troubled path they would have to work to get there, and perhaps the strength gained from walking that path...
Personally, I think the basic idea might have been good -- it would have been unreasonable to have Karameikos survive at that level of strength.
Yet, the buff-up was hasty at best.
At the very least, the Alphatians in Karameikos are out of place -- there's no real reason for them to settle in Karameikos, where the upper class is composed mostly of Thyatians, nor there is a good reason for the Thyatian upper class to welcome a large influx of Alphatians.
Tylion himself has little reason to create his school in Karameikos: with the destruction of Alphatia, most of his Alphatian competitors for Immortality are gone, so it would be easier for him to start back in Denwarf-Hurgon or somewhere else in former Alphatia than in Karameikos (that is, right between Glantri and Thyatis, where most of the remaining high-level wizards would be found).
I don't mind a strengthening of Karameikos, and von Hendriks and Bargle would have to be driven out eventually, though to be fair they would have deserved a boxed set adventure about that on their own.
But having few wizards in Karameikos is like having few (or no) Clerics in Glantri. It is a defining part of their identity.
I have heard some suggest that the School will fail eventually. My own take is instead that the School is overtaken by evil wizards, creating a sort of subtitute for the Black Eagle, right under King Stefans nose...
Havard
Moreover, many events introduced in WotI - most of all the catastrophical ones - were thrown in without taking into any account their consequences.
Many of the events also don't seem to be in line with same developements introduced in the GAZ series.
All these things give the whole WotI adventures of incompleteness, as if they had been written with too much hurry. And this isn't good when you try to keep up a campaign setting with new modules.
The following things were especially bad IMHO:
Meteor Strike: The most useless thing of WotI: it destroys two interesting cultural areas enlarging the already present and not-so-thrilling Broken Lands.
Alphaks makes a sort of direct intervention here for the sake of wanton destruction, right? So, why he didn't have the meteor fall into a more civilized area, like Glantri City or Darokin City? Even better, why haven't the meteor fall on his hated enemies, the imperial Alphatians? And why the other Immortals don't manage to trace back to him the cause of the catastrophe (and severely punish him)?
As if it was not enough, the consequences of such a meteor strike have been largely understimated by Allston: a meteor fall that creates a crater like that would have obliterated all the life in a very large area (Glantri City included), rocking the earth with earthquakes up to the southernmost and northernmost countires and throwing the whole Known World in a long nuclear winter which would have killed many many people and ruined the civilization in the area.
In short, the meteor would have done the Alphatians' job for them. BAD BAD BAD choice.
Alphatia destroyed and resurrected: The sinking of Alphatia was dramatic, and didn't created great problems per se: you have a huge country which has never been described (if not as the home of the 1,000 36th-level-wizards council and of a fleet of flying man-o'war manned by marines wielding wands of lightning...
) and which risks to overpower in magic the rest of Mystara, and you choose to destroy it.But this has its consequences: most of the history of the KW is built on the background of the imperial struggles between Thyatis and Alphatia and, with Alphatia gone, the "imperial politics" theme is gone also.
Then there's the way with which you choose to destroy Alphatia: sinking. The sinking of an island-continent as large as Alphatia would have created a sea-quake capable of destroying the coasts of all eastern IoD, Bellissarian, Norwold and Alatian countries, doing severe damages also to port cities in the KW - things that have never been taken into account.
Last but not least, there's the HW Alphatia: WHY and HOW could the Immortals transfer the whole continent in the HW and resurrect most of its inhabitants in a while stays unknown. Why only the Alphatians have had the privilege of having not only a city of group of people taken in the HW (as all the peoples of the HW), but their whole empire (which also possess a technology that risks to ruin the HW project)?
Uncomprehensible political events: These add to the chaos of strange events created by WotI and the PWAs:
1) Ochalea and the Pearl Islands revolt? WHY? Allston says that Thyatis is keeping these countries with its armies, but DotE (which HE has written) says that the two countries are perfectly integrated into the Empire! The first rebellion of these countries comes a millennium after their inclusion in the empire?
The only area where the Thyatians would have more probably faced a revolt during WotI, the Hinterlands, isn't even mentioned by Allston...
2) Korotiku is an ally of Rad and lets the Pearl Island go indipendend, doing much damage to the already beaten Thyatian Empire and accelerating the defeat of Glantri. Good Korotiku, keep on this way! With allies like these, no doubt that Rad has been forced to build the Doomsday Weapon.
3) Thar attacks Glantri. Thar is a nosferatu controlled by Morphail, has a magic sword given to him by Jaggar that suggests to begin a war against Rockhome, is visited by an envoy of Karaash (Uruk Vaath alias Jaggar) that is pulling him to hasten his war against the dwarves. Moreover, the chief of Bugburbia, Ohr'r, is also mentally controlled by Jaggar. All in all, at least a quarter of the Broken Lands seems an instrument in the hands of Jaggar. But all of this is ignored and cancelled when Allston decides to have Thar attacking Glantri; perhaps he could have introduced a strife among humanoid chiefs, many of whom want to attack Glantri while Thar insists that the target of the invasion should be Rockhome - or something similar.
4) Thyatis, half-ruined by the war, launches a rash invasion of the IoD (PWAs) instead of strenghtening its hold on its remaining territories. This is completely against Thyatian character as described in DotE, and eventually dooms any chance of Thyatis to estabilish its hold over the whole IoD. Moreover, no one speaks against this choice of Thincol in the Senate, and I remember also that the Senate can veto foreign aggressions proposed by the emperor (this also was written by Allston in DotE... ).
5) Karameikos: the civil-war scenario here was inevitable when Stefan declares indipendence from Thyatis. You could have the loyalist Thyatians and some Traladarans sided with Stefan, while "imperial" Thyatians could have Kelvin and Hendriks as chiefs in an uneasy alliance, with the Traladaran extremists as a third faction gathered around Magda Marilenev. The war could see intervention of Thyatian units in the first part of the war on the side of the "imperials", and of Ierendi or Fiver Shires units on the Side of Stefan. A very exciting scenario to play adventures such as "The Fall of the Black Eagle" (D&D Compaion Set) or the Karameikan part of X10.
Instead Stefan allies with the worst and hated enemies of Thyatian civilization and NO ONE find this action abhorrent among the Karameikan Thyatians. He abandons his old friend Thincol in the moment of need and all keeps absolutely quiet - even Hendriks does NOTHING for the whole lenght of WotI, save waging war in AC1010 when the full might of Stefan and the Five Shires not engaged anymore with Hule can crush him even more easily...
6) Alphatian strategy: your duty is to destroy Glantri? Good. So the first thing you have to do is to ally yourself with Ethengar. Thyatis sides with Glantri? So ally yourself with Ylaruam. These countries were aggressive, powerful and potential allies of the Alphatians, while in WotI both Ethengar and Ylaruam keeps a low profile and ultimately are defeated or don't make great gains.
7) And Ostland? The actions of this Thyatian ally have been ignored. We know only that the Ostlander fight against the Alphatians, and then against the Ethengarians (WHY, I say?). In the whole history there will not be another favorable moment for the Ostman clans' rebellion as the situation of late WotI: Thyatis can't help Ostland, Alphatian are on the verge of invading the islands, military units of the king are fighting eslewhere. But the Ostmans do nothing. Patience, it will be for another time.
Other choices: Some other choices made by Allston were more or less already been introduced in the GAZ series, such as the invasion of Alfheim by the Shadowelves - a thing that seems rather sure to succeed according to GAZ13.
The Week Without Magic and the following Day of Dread weren't so bad choices either; Mystara is high-magic, that's true, but this is something that has came out from later products rather that from previous GAZs (Karameikos, Ylaruam, Ierendi, Northern Reaches, Darokin, Ethengar or Minrothad weren't so high-magic). Something had to be done to prevent that the campaign setting went off the rails (with Sclaras and the Great Council, "from Freeholds to world power" Heldannic Knights, skyships filled with wand-wielding marines, etc.) becouse of the drift between high- and low-magic countries.
Regarding Glantri, the choice of admitting clerical magic was done in PC4 and any other restriction against it went away in WotI. I can understand that a plagued Glantri would open its doors to clerical help, but the logical consequence of this would be the crisis of the magocracy: for centuries the wizards have enforced the faith in Rad and banned Immortal worship, but now they're unable to solve the crisis (famine and plague). I'd expect peasant revolts, killing of wizards and civil strife caused by non-magic-users; the post-WotI situation could be one where Glantri is torn by the people asking for Immortal worship and mobs of foreign clerics invade the country, preaching faith in the Immortals and the fall of the magocracy.
With Etienne and the Nucleus of the Spheres, the resetting of the energy-draining effect toward an entropy-draining one perhaps would have worked well, if only it would have been explained better. What does it means for the planet a draining of entropic energy?
And that's all. All in all, I'd prefer DMing a campaign that follows more closely the suggestions and adventures of the GAZs line that the badly-assembled WotI synopsis.
Agreed.
I think it would be interesting to work the Known World into a sort of story ark, where at the end these nations would end up more or less as per AC1000, the main difference being the troubled path they would have to work to get there, and perhaps the strength gained from walking that path...
I did part of this in my rewriting of WotI here:
http://www.pandius.com/endknown.html
http://www.pandius.com/tempires.html
Basically, the major changes here at the end of the WotI-equivalent storyline are the dissolution of Darokin and the invasion of the Five Shires by the Dark Hin.
The timeline focuses mostly on Darokin, the Five Shires, and Karameikos in the first article, and Thyatis, Alphatia and the IoD in the second.
There is probably need for more coverage of the Rockhome/Northern Reaches/Ylaruam area.
GP
Meteor Strike: The most useless thing of WotI: it destroys two interesting cultural areas enlarging the already present and not-so-thrilling Broken Lands.
This was part of the toning down of Thyatis and Alphatia: basically, it destroyed the Thyatian and Alphatian parts of Glantri.
Last but not least, there's the HW Alphatia: WHY and HOW could the Immortals transfer the whole continent in the HW and resurrect most of its inhabitants in a while stays unknown. Why only the Alphatians have had the privilege of having not only a city of group of people taken in the HW (as all the peoples of the HW), but their whole empire (which also possess a technology that risks to ruin the HW project)?
This event has been discussed several times. Basically, given the powers of the Immortals, it should have been impossible.
Other than that, I agree with most of your assessment of the political scenario.
Regarding Glantri, the choice of admitting clerical magic was done in PC4 and any other restriction against it went away in WotI. I can understand that a plagued Glantri would open its doors to clerical help, but the logical consequence of this would be the crisis of the magocracy: for centuries the wizards have enforced the faith in Rad and banned Immortal worship, but now they're unable to solve the crisis (famine and plague).
This was wrong in PC4 to begin with. The Principalities did not admit clerics back in 802, when another major plague threatened them, why would they change idea two centuries later -- when one would imagine they had two centuries to develop some form of non-clerical healing and a response system against those emergencies.
Not to mention the fact that two of the princes are undead, and most others have excellent reasons not to want clerics around.
With Etienne and the Nucleus of the Spheres, the resetting of the energy-draining effect toward an entropy-draining one perhaps would have worked well, if only it would have been explained better. What does it means for the planet a draining of entropic energy?
Simply, the trend is reversed. The more Radiance is used, the more magical the planet becomes -- in a century or so, if heavy Radiance usage continues, the Day of Dread will disappear, people will start manifesting innate magical powers, lifespans will increase and magical creature will reproduce more quickly. Also, the number of magic-talented people will increase.
GP
On Thyatis, the emperor is furious about his lost prestige and is struggling to fix it... which is why he went quickly to reclaim lost territory instead of biding his time and tactically strengthening his holdings. As far as the senate--their power is lost. They are little more than a group of aristocracy playing pretend, much like in r/w Rome after the death of Caesar... This is the transition from the republican empire to a true empire.
Clerics in Glantri? This is a temporary situation. The fact that clerics are allowed to help control the plague, which was unsuccessful... and it was the Wendarian elves which finally caused the halt... I think the clerical ban is reinstated in the near future (hint to 1020 Almanac writers)....
Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done about the crater... I've just used it as an excuse for a larger humanoid population.
Darokin does go into a recession, but as r/w history has proven, capitalist societies always have a recession after a war... I think the Darokin recession is coming to a close, and will end up being even MORE financially sound when the economy stabalizes.
Rockhome--as a punishment for doing nothing, the surface of Rockhome is overwhelmed with humanoids... and the idea of "dwarves reemerge and sweep up" isn't as clean as it first appears, the spring cleaning takes quite a bit longer than normal, and the dwarves have yet to get back to "life as normal".
Karamikos, I have always though that this country was (understandably) under-powered... but its my favorite nation, so I have always wanted it a bit sronger. I like Bruce's "World in Flames" scenario, and have utilized it here to make up for the lack of a villian. (However I do think that the Baron and Bargle are still around, maybe hiding in Ylaruam plotting revenge, a la al Quaeda?)
Well, I've got to head out for a game, so I'll post more later.
Roger
One question: when the Shadowelves conquer Alfheim, does WotI take the strife within the SE society into account at all?
In the GAZ one of the most interesting things is the division between the expansionists (Xatapechli & Telemon) and the traditionalists (the Shamans). According to the GAZ, it is Rafiel's will that the SE stay underground, follow Rafiel's Way closely and continue his private Radiance project. Whereas Telemon sees the Way be restrictive and wishes to use military expansion as a tool of emancipation. Xatapechli seems to be a tool of Atzanteotl, who wishes to use this genuine division as a tool for destroying the SE people.
Granted, I haven't studied WotI fully. But it seems to me that the product has Rafiel bypass his own key project and send the SE to Alfheim. This seems highly implausible. And regarding campaign flavour, the SE become a much more boring people after this. The whole tripartite tension is gone.
It's true that it caused major change to the Known World as it's described in the gazetteers, but to me that can be a good thing too, since it means the Known World is not static. It works in my campaign, too, since I enforce the changes with the consequence that the players see the world as a dynamic place that they can affect with their choices, but which can also become something they don't like, since the same applies to all the most active NPCs out there.
As some have pointed out, there are things that may seem inconsistent in WOTI. But rather than let it remain so, I tend to think of reasons why things turned out the way they did, if I see a problem. For example, why didn't Alphatia ally itself with Ethengar during WOTI? Well, who said they didn't? I know that in the MA version of events, they did try, because I was one of the people to suggest and write into the net almanacs. Simply put, the Alphatians did suggest an alliance, only the emissaries they sent to Ethengar were fairly typical Alphatian aristocrats, who saw the Ethengarians as barbaric savages. Not a good perception to take with you into the Khanates, to be sure, since it meant that the Ethengarians saw little or no difference between the Alphatians and the Glantrians. And so the Alphatian emissaries never returned home... ;)
That Alfheim has become Aengmor is woefully underexploited in the PWAs, though. I incorporated elements of the "Son of Dawn" novel into my campaign, where Darokin and Aengmor very nearly go to war early in AC 1010. I do wonder what the plan was for the exiled Alfheim elves, though. It seems that one idea was to strengthen Karameikos and turn Wendar into the new elf-nation, or maybe it could be a springboard for a later quest to reclaim the lost Sylvan Realm.
The most annoying thing about post-WOTI, though, is the inconsistencies in the canon material. For example, Aleena Halaran is married in 1010 or 1011, yet in an adventure for the K:KoA set, which is set in AC 1012, she has a love interest with a druid. Say what? Or how about Retameron Antonic, who becomes the new minister of war in Karameikos after the death of Lucius Hyraksos in 1010. Yet in the K:KoA set, the new minister of war is the paladin Zandra Sulanov, and Retameron is back to being "merely" the lord of Verge with never a word of explanation... Like I said, I reconcile these things IMC, but it's still annoying.
And of course, the inconsistencies regarding the NoS are far more problematic. WOTI ends with the reprogramming of the NoS to drain Entropy instead of Energy, yet the Radiance rules in post-WOTI G:KoM are just the same as in Gaz3 even so. That borders on the inexcusable IMHO.
Håvard mentioned the effect of the Day of Dread on magic and how it meant that no effect can last longer than a year. I think you're overestimating the effect of the DoD, at least as far as I understand it. The DoD does not dispel magical effects. It is not a worldwide Dispel Magic spell and automatically affects all mortal magic. No, as I understand it, it is a worldwide Anti-Magical Shell that disrupts magic for a limited period of time. Thus, a potion would be useless on the Day of Dread, but it would work again the day after, and a spell cast before the Day of Dread could last beyond it, except its effect would be suppressed during the day itself. For example, a Continual Light spell would stop on the Day of Dread, but resume the day after. At least, that's how I've always played it. Even Bruce Heard has said before that the DoD and even the WWM shouldn't be allowed to ruin important magic in the campaign.
Alphatia: Clearly Alphatia has no place in Hollow World, and would be a distinct threat to the experiment, regardless of the Spell of Preservation. Alphatians are likely to not be happy with what has occurred either. IMO, an empire with that many wizards is going to find a way to reverse what happened- particularly if the Alphatian immortals help things along (possibly aided by the Hollow World patrons). We'll probably resurrect Alphatia as part of Eriadne's quest for immortality.
Thyatis Given the long war's drain on the Empire's manpower and resources, it is reasonable to expect Thyatis to consolidate its forces to protect more vital areas. The Hinterlands would likely be abandoned by organized Thyatian military forces for use on the Isle of Dawn and to secure more important imperial areas. Depending on your view of Ochaela and the Pearl islands, the Thyatians might withdraw from there as a stategic move to consolidate military units- very likely if there contributions to the empire are overshadowed by the expense of maintaining forces there and the stretching of military forces required to defend them. This strategic abandonment historically can be referenced when the Western Roman emperor withdrew the last remnents of the legions from Britain and the residents of the province were told to look to their own defense. Under this scenario, I would downplay the "rebellion" aspect.
As far as the Senate goes, it is merely an old boy's club, given some respect out of tradition and maintaining appearances. Thincol would use the events of WotI to marginalize the ever decreasing importance of the Senate- the pretense would drop and what everyone knows (that Thincol runs the ship) would be acknowledged more openly. The end result is Thincol does what he wants, and the Senate can do nothing to stop him.
Heldann I like their rise to prominence, and it makes the north a much more interesting place to set a campaign.
Glantri Definitely should not allow clerics. That was a unique cultural neurosis and it needed to stay.
Alfheim IMO, the Alfheimers should be far more active in regaining the forest, and most importantly should be trying to save it at all costs- even if it means working with the shadow elves. We will likely have a uneasy truce form in order to return the elves to the forest in order to help save it.
As always, DM's always will modify things to best suit their campaign, and WotI happens to provide a good opportunity to do so
I wrote my own 95 page long version of Wrath to fix the twelve billion problems with it.
What did you change? (That's about a 95 page loaded question!) :D
--Ray.
What did you change? (That's about a 95 page loaded question!) :D
--Ray.
Basically a lot. And I'll probably change it more if I ever run it again.
But to start with:
My opening notes:
Wrath of the Immortals 2.0:
The following is an effort to sketch out what I think the most logical sequence of events following on the canonical Ixion/Rad quarrel would be:
Basic Assumptions:
1. Most Immortals do not realize that the continued use of the Radiance from the Nucleus of the Spheres will eventually destroy their own power in Mystara and even cancel out Immortal Level magics. Thus, they do not see the Hollow World as innately threatened by Rad's experiments, and decisions as to who to support will not be made on this basis. If they did realize Immortal level magic could be effected by the Nucleus, even the Entropics probably would have joined forces with the others to rip Rad into bite sized chunks and get rid of the Nucleus. After all, the change to the Nucleus had been intended to limit its use, not to strip all Immortals of their power over Mystara.
2. Many Immortals are not necessarily bothered by magic being wiped out; after all, why would a council of Hiearchs have altered the device to drain magic in the first place if such a state of affairs really concerned them? Thus, only those Immortals with a direct stake in mortal magic or magical races will automatically be bothered by this.
3. Many Immortals percieve the struggle as an internal civil war between factions in the Sphere of Energy, and thus don't want to become involved in it if they are from a different sphere.
4. If magic dies, the path of the Paragon becomes impossible, which would cut off the flow of new Immortals of Energy. This tends to push any Energy Immortal who doesn't have hopes of finding other paths to Immortality in Energy towards Ixion's camp.
5. No other path requires the existance of mortal-level magic (even the Epic Hero's legendary weapon could be theoretically mundane as long as it is used in glorious things). This gives other Immortals more reason to stay nuetral, as the outcome of the struggle is no skin off their back.
6. However, Immortals of Time seek to promote change, and Immortals of Thought seek to understand everything; this gives them a potential reason to support Rad's experiments, so long as they have no personal commitment to mortal-level magic.
7. Matter, on the other hand, seeks to prevent change; this might give some incentive to Matter Immortals to join Ixion in preventing a change on the scale of the Death of Magic.
8. And finally, Entropy, because of assumption 1, has no reason to do anything but create as much havoc as possible.
How this plays out:
Every immortal of Energy has to take sides in this struggle. Alphatia, Ilsundal, Mealiden, Palartarkan, Razud (to protect Alphatia), Tarastia (because she sees the potential for Rad's experiments to exterminate the magical races as unjust), and Zirchev (to protect the magical forest creatures from destruction) join Ixion. Thor hesitates because his real loyalty is to Odin, not his sponsor Ixion, and unlike most Immortals of Energy, he was never a mage and has no real interest in magic. He remains nuetral and is shunned by both sides, who find his nuetrality to be a betrayal of the Sphere itself. Rad is joined by Rafiel, Rathanos (who finds his researches intriguing and a potential road to the achievement of his own goals), Pflarr (who cares nothing for his own followers, but is loyal to Rathanos), Eiryndul (who is chivvied into this by his old sponsor Rathanos, but is somewhat uncomfortable because he worries about the fate of the Elves in a magicless world, if such comes to pass. Mostly he sticks around at first because Korotiku, who he respects, also supports Rad at first), and Kythria, who joins to spite Valerias, who was her first sponsor but rejected her.
The Atruaghin Clans immortals have no particular love of magic, and thus declare their nuetrality. Zirchev is unable to convince Halav and Petra to join him, and they remain nuetral, preoccupied with other affairs. The Northern Reaches Immortals (Odin, Forsetta, Frey and Freyja [and Thor, see note above]) remain nuetral, as they have other things on their mind.
The Dragon Rulers (The Great One, Diamond, Opal, and Pearl) join Ixion because they fear for the survival of the dragons if magic is removed from the world by Rad's experiments.
The Humanoid Immortals (Bartilzuth, the Shining One, Wogar) all throw in with Rad because they want magic to be destroyed, figuring this would strengthen the position of their own races, who are usually bad at magic.
Djaea and Khoronus, divided as to who to support, decide to remain nuetral to avoid having to fight each other. They take action to protect their worshippers, but that is all.
Khoronus' neutrality means that the members of the Sphere of Time are free to take their own position with regard to the war. Calitha and Ordana throw in with Ixion for fear that the Elves will perish in a world without magic. Al-Kalim, Petra, and Protius all remain nuetral because they have no interest one way or another. Vanya throws in with Rad because she has no interest in the preservation of magic, and in fact believes that if Rad wins, his experiments will ultimately destroy Alphatia, throwing the way open for her Heldanner and Thyatian followers to come to dominate the Known World. She can swallow her disgust with Rathanos for this.
Terra, head Hiearch of Matter, also declares nuetrality, as she has other things to worry about than an internal dispute in another sphere. Kagyar also has other things to worry about and has no love for magic. Valerias throws in with Ixion because he is her lover, and Faunus, for whatever he is worth, eventually throws in with him to protect the Forest Races. Ka waffles, acknowledging the danger to the magical races, but also wanting to prevent a war of the Immortals which would cause even more damage than a simple decline of magic. The magical races could be saved by moving them to other worlds and planes, but nothing will bring back the dead of such a war. Ka works in Pandius to try to find a peaceful solution, teaming up with Koryis, who also opposes war.
With Odin nuetral, the Immortals of Thought are left to find their own way. Because he supports change, has an affection for the underdog, and because he has no philosophical attachment to magic, Korotiku supports Rad. Karaash joins Rad as well, hoping to see magic perish, which would make life easier for his humanoid followers. Diulanna remains nuetral, torn between her hatred of Rathanos and her admiration for Korotiku. Noumena has no taste for war, and is preoccupied with his duties on the Council of Intrusion; he remains nuetral. He does, however, begin to independently study what effects the draining of magic from Mystara might have, as the puzzle intrigues him. Koryis joins Ka in trying to bring about peace. Asterius hesitantly joins Rad's faction, since he is friends with both Ixion and Korotiku, but Korotiku was his sponsor. Like Eiryndul, his loyalty to the cause is fairly shaky. Still, his followers are largely thieves and merchants, and thus he has no vested interest in magic at the present despite his past interest in it.
Hel remains officially nuetral, but unofficially organizes a group of Immortals to try to drag out the conflict. Her past failure to sponsor many immortals comes back to bite her. Masauwu and his protege, Bagni Gullymaw, join her, although Bagni's role in all this is to be a fall guy. Alphaks joins her, although his real interest is getting her help in destroying Alphatia. Atzanteotl joins her with his protege, Danel Tigerstripes, also in the hopes of influencing things to fulfil his own agendas. The same can be said of Loki. Thanatos remains aloof, along with several of his own ex-students--Demogorgon, Orcus, and Talitha. Nyx begins to worry over whether Rad's experiments would lead to the destruction of Undead in Mystara, and begins conducting experiments to determine if this would be the case. Jammudaru, Yagrai, and Ranivorus try to join Rad, are rejected because they're Entropics, but support him anyway because they want to see magic wiped out so their humanoid followers can flourish.
The body count racks up as follows:
Ring of Fire (Anti-Radiance, Pro-Magic, Supports Ixion)
Ixion, Alphatia, Ilsundal, Mealiden, Palartarkan, Razud, Tarastia, Zirchev, The Dragon Rulers (The Great One, Diamond, Opal, and Pearl), Calitha, Ordana, Valerias, Faunus
Nuetrals:
Atruaghin Clans Immortals (Atruaghin and company)
Northern Reaches Immortals (Odin, Thor, Frey and Freyja, Forsetti)
Traldar Immortals (Chardastes, Halav and Petra)
Others: Djaea and Khoronus, Al-Kalim, Protius, Terra, Kagyar, Noumena, Diulanna, Taroyas, Minroth, Yav
Entropic Nuetrals: Nyx, Thanatos, Brissard, Demogorgon, Orcus, and Talitha
Peacemakers:
Ka and Koryis
Brotherhood of the Star (Pro-Rad, Anti-Authority, Anti-Alphatia, or Anti-Magic):
Firm Members: Rad, Rafiel, Rathanos, Pflarr, Korotiku, Turmis, Kythria, Vanya, Karaash, Bartilzuth, the Shining One, Wogar
Hesitant Members: Asterius, Eiryndul
Unofficial and Unwanted Members: Jammudaru, Ranivorus, Yagrai
Brotherhood of the Shadow (Hel's Hell-Raisers)
Hel, Masauwu, Bagni Gullymaw, Alphaks, Atzanteotl, Danel Tigerstripes, Loki
Politically, the sides can deploy the following nations:
Ring of Fire: Alphatia, Alfheim, various Elven clans and forest creatures (The elves of Minrothad are originally unable to motivate it to take sides at first, much frustrating Calitha and Ordana), every dragon with any religious tendencies--lawful, nuetral, AND Chaotic ones, which frightens observers, Ethengar (motivated by Ixion in his aspect as Yamurga, playing on their desire to invade Heldan), Sind
Brotherhood of the Star: Glantri, Heldan Freeholds, Humanoids all over the place, Shadow Elves, Thyatian Empire
Brotherhood of the Shadow: Hule, Tiger Clan of the Atruaghin Clans, Azcans and Schattenelfen (Not that either Hollow World nation is likely to be too much help), Alphaks' tiny island nation off Alphatia, Hel's worshippers in Hule and the Northern Reaches, Boldavian vampires
************
To try to sum up 95 pages in brief--
The Dragon Races begin manuevers to try to build a secure power base to oppose Rad, doing such things as entering the Ierendi tournament to gain the position of King and Queen, conquering nations, etc.
In the Hollow World, Tarastia tries to move to crush Nithia through her Jennite followers. The Tanagoro join them in the crusade to wipe out their old Nithian enemies. This leads Senkha into the hands of the entropics to 'save' her homeland.
The Humanoid immortals begin uniting as many of their followers as possible to be ready to intervene in the war. Thar ravages Alfheim with Shadow Elf aid. Driven out of Alfheim, they take over the surface of Rockhome, then go after the Dwarves below.
Heldannic Knights invade Norwold as part of the war once it erupts. (And their airfleet is annhilated by Alphatia's)
Ethengars invade and ravage Glantri, but are unable to finish it off. Many Glantrian peasants rise up and aid the Ethengars. (Especially in Boldavia and Klantyre, where Ethengar clerics help them slaughter the undead nobility).
The Desert nomads overrun much of Sind, then attack the Atruaghin clans and lots of death ensues. The Children of the Tiger rise up and butcher the Turtle Clan, enslaving some and sacrificing the rest. Only a remnant escapes by sea to the islands.
Shadow Elf agents try to turn the Ylari against the Elves as water thieves, but the Ylari conclude IT MUST BE THYATIS' fault. Events lead eventually to a Kin takeover and war on Thyatis.
When Karameikos betrays Thyatis, Thincol waits until the Karameikan army moves to aid Darokin, then sends assassins who wipe out the entire royal family of Karameikos (to his annoyance, the patriarch resurrects them all.) He then appoints Ludwig as Grand Duke. Civil war in Karameikos ensues as the Church of Karameikos schisms also. Eventually, the Shires invade and end the war by pinning the Black Eagle between Stefan and themselves, but this reduces the ability of either to aid Darokin.
The immortals catch Alphaks and imprison him for the whole meteor thing.
No destruction of Alphatia.
Everyone turns on Rad when it turns out the Nucleus can actually destroy Immortal level magic.
Bunch of other stuff too
Alphatia: Clearly Alphatia has no place in Hollow World, and would be a distinct threat to the experiment, regardless of the Spell of Preservation. Alphatians are likely to not be happy with what has occurred either. IMO, an empire with that many wizards is going to find a way to reverse what happened- particularly if the Alphatian immortals help things along (possibly aided by the Hollow World patrons). We'll probably resurrect Alphatia as part of Eriadne's quest for immortality.
I agree on making this a temporary thing. IMC I'm making Alphatia's ressurrection part of Terari's quest for Immortality rather than Eriadna's (although it could be both I suppose). Terari is pursuing the path of the dynast, which means he will have to rescue Alphatia from crisis three times. This could be one of them!
Thyatis Given the long war's drain on the Empire's manpower and resources, it is reasonable to expect Thyatis to consolidate its forces to protect more vital areas. The Hinterlands would likely be abandoned by organized Thyatian military forces for use on the Isle of Dawn and to secure more important imperial areas. Depending on your view of Ochaela and the Pearl islands, the Thyatians might withdraw from there as a stategic move to consolidate military units- very likely if there contributions to the empire are overshadowed by the expense of maintaining forces there and the stretching of military forces required to defend them. This strategic abandonment historically can be referenced when the Western Roman emperor withdrew the last remnents of the legions from Britain and the residents of the province were told to look to their own defense. Under this scenario, I would downplay the "rebellion" aspect.
I like this idea of Thyatis consolidating its empire. I don't really mind Ochalea and the Pearl Islands being independent. IMC Thyatis is planning on invading Ylaruam to stop the agression from that country. (Please ignore any R/W parallells you might see here :P )
As far as the Senate goes, it is merely an old boy's club, given some respect out of tradition and maintaining appearances. Thincol would use the events of WotI to marginalize the ever decreasing importance of the Senate- the pretense would drop and what everyone knows (that Thincol runs the ship) would be acknowledged more openly. The end result is Thincol does what he wants, and the Senate can do nothing to stop him.
Ofcourse, going by the almanacs, Thincol dies soon after this, and Eusebius is seemingly a weakling. My idea is a Hattian attempt at Eusebius' life during the invasion of Ylaruam. The attempt seemingly suceeds, but while the Hattians are now in charge, Eusebius has escaped, finding shelter in the desert. There he is protected by Desert Nomads, converts to the Way of the Eternal Truth and eventually uses elite desert nomad warriors to pull a Julius Caesar and reclaim his throne. Dune is a big inspiration for this storyline.
Heldann I like their rise to prominence, and it makes the north a much more interesting place to set a campaign.
Yeah, gotta love those guys
Glantri Definitely should not allow clerics. That was a unique cultural neurosis and it needed to stay.
Yep, at best this could be a temporary thing.
Alfheim IMO, the Alfheimers should be far more active in regaining the forest, and most importantly should be trying to save it at all costs- even if it means working with the shadow elves. We will likely have a uneasy truce form in order to return the elves to the forest in order to help save it.
This is an interesting development that I hadn't considered. But looking at which developments would provide the most fun setting to play in at the end of things, I think this would rate pretty high.
Havard