Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Dec 21, 2006 16:12:49	In my fantasy world (Mystara) there are some PC race that is strictly elf-looking. As an example, the Sidhe, the Woodrake and the Aranea (last 2 are true shapeshifeters, but the elf aspect is seen as the true one, also to a true sight or similar spell! Do you think a not-elf (but strictly elf looking) could ever be able tojoin the Elven Imperial Fleet?
#2 jaid Dec 21, 2006 17:59:11	sure. so long as you don't mention you're not an elf. especially if you tell them you're some weird variety of elf that has other forms, rather than admitting to be a different creature, one of the forms of which happens to look an awful lot like an elf :P
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 24, 2006 21:13:20	no, if the IEN detected them they'd kill them thinking they are spies, but do they allow non elves to join? i remeber something about the elves using the deck apes as crewman?
#4 jaid Dec 24, 2006 22:03:14	no, if the IEN detected them they'd kill them thinking they are spies, but do they allow non elves to join? i remeber something about the elves using the deck apes as crewman? well yeah, that's why you don't let them know you're not actually an elf, silly :P and yes, the elves do indeed use hadozee as crewman on their ships. they are the only other race allowed though, pretty much (though iirc the lionheart presented on BtM has Show 5 dragons of various types also
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 25, 2006 10:45:10	no, if the IEN detected them they'd kill them thinking they are spies, but do they allow non elves to join? That's my question core: how could elves tell a sidhe PC apart from an elf? They are identical... And, if they can't detect a not-elf looking exactly as an elf, why shouldn't them accept him as a full member? Hadoozes are accepted as crewmembers, but can't rise in the ranks.
#6 jaid Dec 25, 2006 12:38:40	That's my question core: how could elves tell a sidhe PC apart from an elf? They are identical... And, if they can't detect a not-elf looking exactly as an elf, why shouldn't them accept him as a full member? Hadoozes are accepted as crewmembers, but can't rise in the ranks. it might be possible to detect... do these things have the elf blood ability? (or, of course, the 'elf' subtype of humanoid) that is, do they count as elves for magical effects and whatnot? do they need to sleep more than 4 hours per day? are they effected by ghoul paralyze abilities? and so forth. possible, but not terribly likely, imo. but certainly, someone could devise a 'detect elf' spell or something like that.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 25, 2006 17:54:24	For sidhe PCs: A sidhe is negatively influenced by iron. He can't use iron weapons and armor, nor any other thing containing iron. He is damaged by holy water (1d4). Holy symbols, prayers and Powers names tend to make him unconfortable and keephim away. Ok, it would be easy to detect him from an elf from these weaknesses. But... he is immune to ghouls paralysis, since it preys on a victim's fear of death. He can be only a warrior or a rogue, but he is capable of casting spells like a magic-user. We could say that his class is only fighter/mage and thief/mage. He can't be singleclassed. So... is it possible for the elves to think a special groundling elvish race is allergic to iron? Elves subraces are soooooo many: sun elves, high elves, gray elves, drows, qualinesti, silvanesti, elves of the valley, rockseers, avariels, dimernesti, aquarendi... I add a nice thing: araneas are naturally shapeshifters. The have 2 true froms: a large, intelligent spider and an humanoid. The humanoid form could be: human, elf, half-elf, dwarf, lupin, rakasta, shazak (lizard man), gnoll or orc. The interesting think is that araneas are not detectable as shapeshifters by magin, since thay can shift betwwen 2 TRUE forms. So evish looking araneas in elvish form can't be magically detected from an elf... Ok... in my Mystara groundling setting, I have: flamenco elves, alfheim elves and many derivates (basically high elves), shiye-lawrs (reclusive as sylvans, but magically strong as grays), ee'aars (avariels), shadowelves (underground dwelling, but very different from drows), aquarendi (aquatic elves), sea elves (seagoing mariners, not underwater dwellers)... what if Don Isidoro Manolo Alvarez de Casanegra y Llorca Grande (a swashbuckler elf fighter) with his big black mustaches and swift rapier presents to EIF and asks to join? Did a Realmspace elf ever saw a flamenco elf? Could he ever be able to identify him as an elf? Is there a magical exam to join the EIF?
#8 zombiegleemax Dec 25, 2006 21:54:12	wouldnt they have something like the mythal in the "eliminster in myth drannor" novel that detects non elves?
#9 jaid Dec 26, 2006 16:06:55	wouldnt they have something like the mythal in the "eliminster in myth drannor" novel that detects non elves? maybe in a few places. in fact, scratch that... maybe in one place, if you even let mythals into your game (personally, i don't like forgotten realms, so mythals and much of the rest of that campaign setting can shove it). but yeah, *if* you're going to allow mythals into the game, i suppose i could see lionheart having one. anywhere else is fairly dubious imo... a mythal is not the kind of thing you just bust out randomly and drop on something unless you're really certain that something is worth it. and for the average training facility, it isn't worth it. for the average military base, it isn't worth it. even if we are talking about a 7 armada 'crown' base, costing a couple million gp, it still isn't worth it to put a mythal on it... because a mythal requires the life (and/or lives) of an extremely high level spellcaster(s), and a whole heck of a lot of supporting spellcasters... who also must be extremely high level. just getting that many casters into one room is an incredible task, because high level spellcasters have other things to do. many of them will have rivalries or even downright enemies amongst the rest of the casters, and this even assumes you *have* that many spellcasters of appropriate level around (including one who is willing to die), and you're looney enough to leave everywhere else so magically weak (because let's face it, those level 20 wizards were definitely an important factor in the defense of wherever they were before you dragged them away). simply put, even if you use mythals, we're talking about a very major even to put one in place. i wouldn't anticipate anything of the sort being on even 1% of the IEN's training bases, shipyards, recruiting centers, military bases, etc. what you might see is enchanted objects, which can be salvaged from a destroyed or overrun base, and used elsewhere as needed. but to put such a powerful enchantment on an immobile space station (or even a mostly immobile space station) is going to draw a lot of attacks from an enemy... and ultimately, if you're determined enough, you are going to be able to destroy any given space station eventually, unless it can move *fast* (for example, let's suppose we use just the 2nd edition rules, without logical additions like increasing large weapon missile velocity... a 100 ton enemy ship stops 500 hexes away armed with it's maximum amount of light catapults (exceptional, for +1 damage, with weapon crew being skilled in weapon loading, and additionally getting +1 to hit from taking the large weapon proficiency. a fairly impressive crew, but certainly not impossible). now, these ships can start launching weapons, making 50 shots per round, each one having a THAC0 of 15 (effectively), a ROF of 1/1, and dealing 1d2+1 damage per round. (if we want an even stronger ship without magic, we can make the catapults each +1 hit, +1 damage instead of just +1 damage, but that won't be necessary) now then, if we target a base which is a ring of 7 armadas, we're looking at an AR of 5, giving us a hit on 10 or better. to be much more reasonable, though, we're going to rule that that's insane, and you're only going to hit on a 20 from that range, and it won't ever be a critical hit. at 50 shots per round, that's 2.5 hits per round, dealing an average of 6.25 damage per round. that's 112 rounds of shooting, on average. now, since we're 500 hexes away, it's going to take 100 rounds for the first shots to get there. if the station cannot move (and at 700 tons, no elven helm can move it), that means you've got 12 rounds to get a large enough fleet to move 500 hexes (that's an average of 60 hexes/round... good luck) and destroy the target ship (so make that *less* than 12 rounds) more realistically, the station just can't handle that kind of firepower, and so it just dies, the protecting fleet tries to chase down the attacker, and probably does (keeping in mind this is an elven fleet, and chances are at least 2 or 3 mages between those present know teleport or some variation). so the attacking ship is also lost. maybe even stopped from destroying the base. more ships are difficult to move in without the IEN knowing, so not likely, and you've just lost a lot of extremely high quality troops, meaning probably not worth it, if we give the base a 75% chance of stopping the attack even. (not that unlikely... for the record, i consider wands of featherfall to be a very probable innovation for base defense in wildspace). probably not worth it for something which can be replaced (sure, it 'costs' a lot... except the IEN doesn't pay for their ships, it grows them). but now, let's make it a ship which cost the life of a 20th level wizard to put powerful spells on it. it had better be able to move, because all of a sudden, it is worthwhile to sacrifice a small fleet of elite ships to detroy it... it can't just be replaced, rebuilt, or whatever. that is a permanently lost extremely valuable asset. now, if you do like the lionheart on BtM, and give it an artifact helm (with a listed max tonnage moved of ??? in WCC), you vastly improve it's chance of survival... but artifacts aren't exactly all over the place, are they? furthermore, most artifact helms have drawbacks, not the least of which is the fact that most artifacts have deities who want their artifact back. and furthermore, even with the artifact helm, you've still got a big target... probably not worthwhile if the helm can just be moved to a new base, but if the base it's attached to is a mythal enhanced one, that base is pretty much toast without further defenses. (see the lionheart on BtM for an example). so mythals are going to be rare. some bases (the most paranoid) may be set up to detect if you're an elf or not, though... but i doubt that's the standard.
#10 taeldrin_laesrash Dec 26, 2006 20:35:10	wouldnt they have something like the mythal in the "eliminster in myth drannor" novel that detects non elves? A mythal wouldn't even be necessary. A spell could be created to determine the race of the applicant. In fact, I think Races of Destiny has something like that.