In my mind, I see the Spirit of Urik as an entity seeking a strengthening of the domain in which he has control over. A Spirit of the Land who has dominion over a lush valley, such as Desverendi, obviously wants to see that valley prosper. Likewise, I think the Spirit of Urik wants the same thing in regards to the city of Urik, and thus his goals and Hamanu's might not be very disimilar.
I also had another idea that I wanted to get out. It's still rather raw, and time might show it to be as full of holes as swiss cheese, but, IMO, this usually tends to work the best for getting more ideas a flowin'. :P
But anyhoo, I digress:
What if the Spirit of Urik is either an (unnaturally occuring OR corrupted) phenomenon that has arisen through epic magics cast by Hamanu in an effort to free himself of Rajaat's "curse". In the novel, he was most assuredly unhappy with the fact that using the powers Rajaat bestowed upon brought Hamanu further under his control (or at least closer to achieving his goals - in full dragon form - can't remember exactly). But anyhowetzer...
I see Hamanu, at some point, attempting to unwork some of Rajaat's workings upon him. What if in trying to do so, a part of him was lost, corrupting the very nature of the land around his city (and perhaps a long-dormant Spirit of the Land???) instilling it with a fragment of his persona....hmmm not sure if I'm explainging that too well, but hey....This fracturing of his mind might explain his misperceptions involving some of the historical events he witnessed. It could also explain why the Spirit of Urik's takeover goes so unnoticed, ie. because in some small way it's still Hamanu.
What are people's thoughts on this?
There is no arguing that RaFoaDK was published. And there is also no argument as to the fact that Abby was not totally in touch with the actual workings of the DS material.
There was recently a comment made by Brax - and I quote:
"We don't say something is good because it's canon. We say that it's canon because it's good."
I would have to say, that whle there are some nuggets of interesting information in the book, it in no way makes how the ending was handled anything but bad IMO. I think that of all the published material, RaFoaDK has done more to actually harm the DS setting - specifically because of the ending of the book - then all of those SKs who were killed off at the end of the PP.
Sorry squidfur- you know I got nothin but love for ya bro, but I had to say it.
Now that all said - I do think that a SotL could be corrupted - in fact I think that there could be undead versions of these buggers running around the Dead Lands, but I am not really into the idea of replacing Hamanu with a SotL-psudo-Hamanu.
Do I agree with your idea of SotL wanting to increase their domains and thereby strengthing themselves - of course - it is nothing different then the elemental lords ardoing with their clerics right.
I can even go as far as thinking that some cities could have versions of SotL - corrupted or not, but definatly different then other of their kind. New Kurn would be a prime example of a place that should have a SotL that is somehow in contact with Oronis.
Anyway - that is about enough out of me.
I would have to say, that whle there are some nuggets of interesting information in the book, it in no way makes how the ending was handled anything but bad IMO. I think that of all the published material, RaFoaDK has done more to actually harm the DS setting - specifically because of the ending of the book.
Oh, believe you me, this is pretty much where I've been since the very first time I read it. Somehow though, that thread I mentioned has warmed me up a little to the idea. Of course, at the end of the day, that may have worn off, but hey, just wanted to get the idea out and see what others could do with it.
Otherwise, I just may have to go back to another take on those events - that being that the novel's ending is just basically his perceptions of those events as seen through an epic divination, thus allowing him to realize his folly, and thus opening the door for the PC's to intervene on his behalf to find an alternate way of defeating the big R....uhhh, or somethin' like that :P
I can't seem to find the thread now, but sometime recently there was a discussion involving the storyline from RaFoaDK (specifically in regards to the Spirit of Urik taking over Hamanu's rule). It was suggested that the common man might not even sense a difference in the two powers. This seemed odd to me at first, but a few ideas struck me while I was at work today and realized this could very easily be the case. To explain:
In my mind, I see the Spirit of Urik as an entity seeking a strengthening of the domain in which he has control over. A Spirit of the Land who has dominion over a lush valley, such as Desverendi, obviously wants to see that valley prosper. Likewise, I think the Spirit of Urik wants the same thing in regards to the city of Urik, and thus his goals and Hamanu's might not be very disimilar.
I also had another idea that I wanted to get out. It's still rather raw, and time might show it to be as full of holes as swiss cheese, but, IMO, this usually tends to work the best for getting more ideas a flowin'. :P
But anyhoo, I digress:
What if the Spirit of Urik is either an (unnaturally occuring OR corrupted) phenomenon that has arisen through epic magics cast by Hamanu in an effort to free himself of Rajaat's "curse". In the novel, he was most assuredly unhappy with the fact that using the powers Rajaat bestowed upon brought Hamanu further under his control (or at least closer to achieving his goals - in full dragon form - can't remember exactly). But anyhowetzer...
I see Hamanu, at some point, attempting to unwork some of Rajaat's workings upon him. What if in trying to do so, a part of him was lost, corrupting the very nature of the land around his city (and perhaps a long-dormant Spirit of the Land???) instilling it with a fragment of his persona....hmmm not sure if I'm explainging that too well, but hey....This fracturing of his mind might explain his misperceptions involving some of the historical events he witnessed. It could also explain why the Spirit of Urik's takeover goes so unnoticed, ie. because in some small way it's still Hamanu.
What are people's thoughts on this?
Great questions, Squidfur.
My reading of that wonderful book, RaFoaDK, is that Hamanu, the city of Urik, and the Spirit of the Land shaped each other, and that it's hard to say who left what effect on whom. Hamanu adapted his persona to play god of his land, but also to be the strongest ruler for the specific needs of his city. Not a kind man, but proud of his work.
On the other thread, I said that the common man probably would not even notice that Hamanu was gone, because the end of the book depicts Hamanu's replacement as looking exactly like Hamanu's public persona. Urik is still standing, and Hamanu's replacement has exactly the same sort of fierce pride regarding the city as Hamanu had.
In order to survive, whatever replaced Hamanu would have had to keep up appearances in order to prevent bringing the other sorcerer-kings down on it.
If the SotL wasn't already Hamanu-like, simply pretending to be Hamanu for enough Ages until it was safe to let down the pretense, would have shaped its personality as well.
There's also the fact that Hamanu simply ruled so long that his personality just sort of become part of the landscape.
Certainly the SotL has enough power to keep SK's at bay if it chooses. It's city is thriving after all, so it's power should be great. As for it assuming Hamanu's form after he leaves, albeit his public form, I think that could very well be a concious or unconcious decision of the SotL. Hamanu does after all do a very good job of painting that face all over the city. What happened at the end of the book? The Lion's on the wall flashed their eyes or something? And the dragon of urik was pushed back? Seems the magic of the SotL is rather fond of using the symbolism Hamanu set up. I think the SotL could very well take over for Hamannu, set up a new system of templars (his own druids). Easily give off the spin that He is the same Hamannu or Hammanu reborn, but that doesn't really matter. What does matter is that he's capable of taking over, and sustaining what he has. Little details like potential changes in templarate doctrine, or whether the same templars or a new batch would be required, or if class changes would be needed, that's minor.
I don't know if Oronis would be in touch with his SotL, but if he was really wise, he should be. So I'd recomend that. I think it would be neat for Urik to be run by a SotL. And who is to say he would be any less of a taskmaster than Hamanu?? Who says Druids or their lands Spirits need to be good??
Maybe they felt it would get rid of a rather large scale religious group with power capable of equaling or rivaling their remplars.What if SotL didn't exist back then? Perhaps AB's didn't come around much till Dragon's came round.
If you're assuming that all SotLs are psionic druids who became ABs, I don't think that assumption is borne out in published materials.
Otherwise, Champions and Dragons back in the day would have some game mechanic that made them 'inherantly' superior with a major advantage over druids and clerics in AB form.
"Back in the day," all dragons were champions, and Champion *is* a game mechanic that makes them inherently superior with SEVERAL major advantages over druids and clerics in AB form.
Plus, there is one very important rule that Athas.org will very likely enforce in their creations... game balance... meaning, one 40th level AB and another should be roughly equal in power. Hence.. today, in 3e, a SotL and a SK should be roughly equivalent in power.
That assumes facts not in evidence. We have no evidence that an SotL and an SK are rougly the same *level.*
I merely suggest that perhaps back then, SotL didn't exist, or perhaps didn't exist as they do today, with druid followers having bound themselves to it through psionics (hence becoming an AB).
There are other reasons to infer that SotLs perhaps did not exist in the same form and/or organization as they do today, and that druid followers may also have been organized differently. I don't think that the arguments that you've laid out here work, though, as I just explained.
Since elemental magic existed before the Rebirth. Since psionics and elemental magic existed side by side for millenia before Rajaat began to teach arcane magic, seems reasonable to infer that character elementals existed. Druidry and SotLs (as we presently imagine them) seem more likely to be a development of the Rebirth (when most land appeared, after the first massive wounding of the planet). Alternately, it's possible that islands during the blue age had island spirits; animist people have often worshipped an individual volcano, for example. A third alternative: it could be that the psionic incident that started the Green Age, when the Rebirth Races discovered psionics (some speak of this as a Githyanki bomb or somesuch), may have given sentience to parts of the land.
Just some ideas to play with.
"Back in the day," all dragons were champions, and Champion *is* a game mechanic that makes them inherently superior with SEVERAL major advantages over druids and clerics in AB form.
I think what Lyric ment, maybe, is that in 2e material, there was no Champion template, and the SKs were only stated out as high level defilers, psionicists, and dragons - there was no difference between them and a PC who attained the same level and stage.
I could be wrong in what he meant - so please, no throwing of pointy and/or hard objects please. :D
But going with the idea that AB SotL and Elementals were in existence, it begs to question as to WHY there is not more detail in the histories about them - barring just the usual argument that it is TRS's fault.
If, using Brax's argument, these creatures existed in the Green Age, they would have been much more powerful then the fledgling Champions. Therefore, if they existed, they could have conceivably been thousands of years old at the time that Rajaat began hunting the druids and the preservers - so it again begs the question as to how these powerful beings were killed and or defeated by the new Champs?
I agree with Brax in that these beings may not have been organized in the same manner as they are today. But I do not think that the SotL existed in the same forms as they do today.
“Why is that?” one would ask. Well, need for one. Where was the need for these beings to take the form that they might wear today? A powerful AB Elementals would, IMO, be more inclined to leave Athas to reside in the elemental plane that they worship. An AB SotL would have been more likely to totally become one with the land, merging themselves completely with there land.
IMO, it would have only been after the Champions and Rajaat had been really deep into the CWs that the SotL, some dead and others wounded beyond measure, would have had the need take up the forms and maybe grant the levels of power required to their mortal followers to try and stave off complete destruction.
In fact, the minor spirits that rangers get their powers from could very well be the fragments of those ancient SotL who died, but since their essence is completely merged with Athas, they kind of continue on as just a minor, and relatively mindless, force of nature.
I think what Lyric ment, maybe, is that in 2e material, there was no Champion template, and the SKs were only stated out as high level defilers, psionicists, and dragons - there was no difference between them and a PC who attained the same level and stage.
I could be wrong in what he meant - so please, no throwing of pointy and/or hard objects please. :D
But going with the idea that AB SotL and Elementals were in existence, it begs to question as to WHY there is not more detail in the histories about them - barring just the usual argument that it is TRS's fault.
I agree with you that usual argument stinks of metagame thinking. We take the story as it is.
It's not like the histories are terribly detailed. There's less detail in our Athasian history than you get in a 200-page high school "history of civilization" text, but the fact that something doesn't appear in your 200 page high school text is not evidence that it never existed until recently.
If, using Brax's argument, these creatures existed in the Green Age, they would have been much more powerful then the fledgling Champions.
Not necessarily. The Champion template jumps you quite a number of level equivalents.
Therefore, if they existed, they could have conceivably been thousands of years old at the time that Rajaat began hunting the druids and the preservers
Why should we assume that Rajaat ever hunted the druids? The eradication didn't start until after Rajaat was locked up and the Dragon regained his sanity, in the middle of the Age of SKs.
- so it again begs the question as to how these powerful beings were killed and or defeated by the new Champs?
They weren't. The champs probably took them on during the Eradication, when "the sands of athas ran red with the blood of druids," or somesuch.
“Why is that?” one would ask. Well, need for one. Where was the need for these beings to take the form that they might wear today? A powerful AB Elementals would, IMO, be more inclined to leave Athas to reside in the elemental plane that they worship.
Why so?
An AB SotL would have been more likely to totally become one with the land, merging themselves completely with there land.
That I understand.
Though the champion template does give advantages, I still don't see it as granting more power than a SotL or Elemental AB who is significantly higher level. But hey, who knows, maybe the SK's just got lucky eh?
Why should we assume that Rajaat ever hunted the druids? The eradication didn't start until after Rajaat was locked up and the Dragon regained his sanity, in the middle of the Age of SKs.
Why would he even need to hunt the druids. They would fight against him, because of his destruction of the planet. Besides it is ludicris to assume that members the of the cleansed races did not have druids and clerics amoungst them.
While the CoR template does jump one up with a LA +8, I would have to say that this really would not have been a deciding factor. Lets us look at it this way.
Say a new dragon decided to take on an SK. The SKs have been around for thousands of years and have not only whole cities and armies with which they can pull resources, but they also are dragons and CoRs right - they are powerful because time and experience have given them the edge against most all other beings that could come to challenge them.
Well - I see this as being the same way that the new CoRs would have come into a fight against any existing Elemental Lords or SotL - they would have been new, and while still powerful, they would be facing beings who quite possibly have been living and gaining XP for thousands of years.
These is noting to point to the fact that these other AB classes even existed at the time - I am not saying that they did not, only that there is little or no empirical proof to the their existence - aside from the possibilities that they were the "gods" that some folk worshipped - which again puts these beings on the same footing as the SKs today and the new Champs (at the time) like the new dragon on the block.
I still think this whole situation falls back to need - as I said before, if they did exist, they would have been more likely to either become one with Athas or to move on to their patron plane - the reason for them moving on is easy - that is their heaven, their holy paradise - why would they not want to be there? IF the elemental powers that be saw fit to give out this power to some of their followers, they would have been few and far between, and would have most likely vacated Athas to be in their heaven before the time of the CWs and decided to either stay there or were in such a state that they now found themselves helpless to act in the defense of their native world.
I really think this is the easiest path to take - it offers up the fact that these beings did exist, they were very few in numbers, and that at the time of the CWs, the Preserver Jihad, and the Eradication of the druids, these beings just were not present in to take part in the battles.
These is noting to point to the fact that these other AB classes even existed at the time - I am not saying that they did not, only that there is little or no empirical proof to the their existence - aside from the possibilities that they were the "gods" that some folk worshipped - which again puts these beings on the same footing as the SKs today and the new Champs (at the time) like the new dragon on the block.
I think the most important consideration in this is Rajaat himself. If there were AB that his champions could not handle on their own, the man himself could always put the smack down on them.
Why would he even need to hunt the druids. They would fight against him, because of his destruction of the planet.
OK, but at what point would the start to fight him? And at what point did it become general knowledge that Rajaat was behind the Champions and the Cleansing Wars, or even that all of the Champions were on the same team. (and did the Champions all even think of themselves as on the same team?)
Besides it is ludicris to assume that members the of the cleansed races did not have druids and clerics amoungst them.
Agreed. Hopefully within a month or so you'll see FFN and LC, which has undead lizardman ex-druids, undead goblin clerics, and all sorts of fun little nuggets, including very interesting stuff regarding Hogalay that I know that Kal read (since he praised it), but that perhaps he forgot about :D
Agreed. Hopefully within a month or so you'll see FFN and LC, which has undead lizardman ex-druids, undead goblin clerics, and all sorts of fun little nuggets, including very interesting stuff regarding Hogalay that I know that Kal read (since he praised it), but that perhaps he forgot about :D
I can't wait ....
I guess they don't have a *rubs hands together* icon yet