"I can kill with a single word. I can hurl a ball of fire into the midst of my enemies. I can rule a squadron of skeletal warriors, who can destroy by touch alone. I can raise a wall of ice to protect those I serve. The invisible is discernible to my eyes. Ordinary magic spells crumble in my presence."
And you still got defeated by a little slip of a girl. :D :D :D :D :D
All things considered, I shoulda just ***** slapped Takhisis and saved us all the whole War of souls thing.
I personally just like to think that Soth was such a great character and had such a huge impact of the gaming that only one world could not contain his greatness. :D :D :D :D :D
The sorcerer and mystic are two of the best classes to ever come to Krynn in order to put more ooommpphh into the menace of the renegade and everybody from Weis & Hickman to Cam Banks seem to want to regulate them to the back of the bus simply because they want the release of Chaos to be the reason for ambient magic. It is very easy to use ambient magic prior to the chaos war as long as every threat out is not based on it. I mean it could be used to explain Raisltin's mother, Gilthanas and others as well. Fine the release of chaos is the catalyst for the mass explosion of Mystics and Sorcerers during the age of mortals, but I say they could have existed in earlier times as descendants of earlier sorcerers and mystics, like the scions, the wild mages, and others from long long ago.
Yes they are. If it is possible that a sorcerer could become a wizard or a wizard could become a sorcerer (as the changing focus sidebar in the DLCS) then every arcane user drawn away from the orders is a blow against the orders and a victory for the thorns. This also holds for earlier times when "renegades" were hunted down and given the choice to die or take the test and accept the ways of the orders (possibly meaning going from ambient magic to focused magic).
The sorcerer and mystic are two of the best classes to ever come to Krynn in order to put more ooommpphh into the menace of the renegade and everybody from Weis & Hickman to Cam Banks seem to want to regulate them to the back of the bus simply because they want the release of Chaos to be the reason for ambient magic. It is very easy to use ambient magic prior to the chaos war as long as every threat out is not based on it. I mean it could be used to explain Raisltin's mother, Gilthanas and others as well. Fine the release of chaos is the catalyst for the mass explosion of Mystics and Sorcerers during the age of mortals, but I say they could have existed in earlier times as descendants of earlier sorcerers and mystics, like the scions, the wild mages, and others from long long ago.
In fact, Primal Sorcery existed in Krynn before High Sorcery, so people saying they are the result of the release of Chaos is wrong. Mysticism, however is a new discovery.
In fact, Primal Sorcery existed in Krynn before High Sorcery, so people saying they are the result of the release of Chaos is wrong. Mysticism, however is a new discovery.
Actually, the release of the Graygem is what allowed mortals to use the primal magic of the world without having it be part of their natures (as it is with dragons and fey). Because the Graygem was not as sudden nor as dramatic an event as the release of Chaos was, this catalytic effect eventually faded, especially as its practicioners were converted to High Sorcery. Echoes of the power of primal sorcery still showed up throughout history but nothing along the lines of an actual sorcerer's abilities (i.e. the sorcerer class itself wasn't available).
So, sure, there were races and creatures using primal magic (both sorcery and mysticism, since outside of the mortals who use those two shades of ambient magic, they're more or less the same) before the Graygem, but not in the way that humans, elves, etc used it following that event.
Cheers,
Cam
Oh, and I was looking through Knightly Orders and found a mistake. The example of the legion sorcerer, the kender bard, is listed as being able to cast cure spells. A no no in DL.
I know that no Kender has ever passed the test but since we're discussing things that could be or might not be, I thought I'd bring it up. :D
Cam, are dragons who can cast divine magic innately considred to have mystic ability rather than sorcery.
Oh, and I was looking through Knightly Orders and found a mistake. The example of the legion sorcerer, the kender bard, is listed as being able to cast cure spells. A no no in DL.
We don't really care so much about bards using cure spells since the only time that would have been a big deal is back when they were going to be allowed in the Age of Despair. Since they aren't now, it doesn't matter.
Dragons are sorcerers mechanically, although many dragons can cast cleric spells and spells from clerical domains in addition to spells from the sorcerer/wizard list, so they're a good example of how these innate races don't really fit the sorcerer/mystic dichotomy.
Cheers,
Cam
I have a question. According to the Towers of High Sorcery, during the Chaos War, even the White Robes had permission to kill a Knight of Thorn on sight, but that was back when the Knights of the Thorn used wizardly magic. Now that the KOT use the magic of Chaos, would the same hold? The reason I ask is that I have a red robe in a party, we are going through the AGE OF MORTALS triology and though we have yet to meet any Thorn knights it would be nice to know what the Orders and the Conclave have to say about them. I know that the Knights of the Thorn would have no problem killing any Tower mage but would like to see if the reverse it true as well.
The KOT use the magic of Chaos? Is this the magic from the killed Deity Chaos or the standard magicform the Renegade (brown robe) ?
Must the KOT then not be Rogue Knights? I know that it gives different people but the rule in the Manual Campaign Setting say KOT must be lawfull evil. How can be lawfull use chaos? One char can be how Rennard (Humas Uncle), but a complete order? To many black sheeps even for Dark Knights?
How can be lawfull use chaos?
They're not using Chaos, they're using magic liberated by Chaos.
The magic itself may or may not be chaotic, but using it certainly doesn't have to be; perhaps lawful knights who use it view their art as giving the primal sorcery enough form and structure to be useful.
Technically spaking the Knights of the Thorn can use either sorcery (ambient\unfocused magic) or wizardry (focused magic). Granted alot of knights are sorcerers, but some are wizards as well.
We've not seen any wizards among the Gray Robes in the Age of Mortals. After Drawde revised the Order of the Thorn, they're all sorcerers.
Cheers,
Cam
One good thing to come from the knights of the thorn (depending on your opinion of course) is that they give renegades something they have not had in a long time, allies against the Orders. Where once renegades had to worry about the orders hunting them down and killing and finding little in the way of allies or defenders, now they at least have someone who might be in a position to help them.
Well Drawde is dead, and there is nothing preventing a wizard from becoming a Thorn knight.
Yes, there is. They'll need a divine patron of some sort in order to achieve any of the special abilities and levels of power they used to have, or that they can maintain with sorcery. Nuitari isn't interested. Takhisis is dead. They'll need to try and convince another god, like Chemosh or Hiddukel, to direct the magic of the moons their way or else they're just like every other renegade wizard out there, and that's hardly ideal.
The Dark Knights have made the working of dark sorcery into a fine art under Drawde. Hoarst is an excellent example, and there are many others. Also, don't write Drawde off yet. He was left tumbling off into the Gray - not necessarily dead. Give his subordinates a couple of years to get uppity and then maybe you'll see him come back with all-new dark secrets from the reaches of the Gray and we'll see what happens.
Cheers,
Cam
Now if the Thorn wanted to receive benefits from all three moons then yeah they would need a divine patron to achieve this. But just regular renegades who don't receive the moons could be a thorn knight.
Example: 8th level Black robe who leaves the orders could become a thorn knight.
Oh and Hoarst is also out the picture as he Coryn has taken him to meet Solinari, and according to her he won't be back. :D :D
Now if the Thorn wanted to receive benefits from all three moons then yeah they would need a divine patron to achieve this. But just regular renegades who don't receive the moons could be a thorn knight.
Example: 8th level Black robe who leaves the orders could become a thorn knight.
He might call himself that, but he wouldn't have the prestige class, and it's unlikely that he'd do well without it.
Cheers,
Cam
By the way:
Diviner (Ex):
If he is a wizard or sorcerer, the knight of the thorn gains...
Read Omens: A knight of the thorn is adept at consulting omens and seeing meaning in hidden places. He can cast augury as a 2nd-level spell. It is automatically added to his spellbook or to his spells known. (If he is a sorcerer, it does not count against his total spells known at that level.)
Cosmic Understanding (Sp): ...adds commune to his spell list as a 5th-level spell. It is automatically added to his spellbook...
So according to the rules a Thorn Knight can be a wizard.
So according to the rules a Thorn Knight can be a wizard.
This is accounting for Age of Despair era Thorn Knights, who were wizards.
So is there a revision somewhere that I don't know about that says this has changed? Other than Cam saying "No way jose." :D :D
The PrC is intended to be multi-era, hence the inclusion of the wizard levels in there.
Of course, you're free to have Thorn Knights be wizards in your game, but I sincerely doubt any are going to be wizards in the current era.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
but he wouldn't have the prestige class,
Now I understand that with the curent situation, most thorn knights being sorcerers that any wizards in their ranks might be treated unfairly. But this is just another way in that "evil feeds upon itself." :D :D :D
Now I understand that with the curent situation, most thorn knights being sorcerers that any wizards in their ranks might be treated unfairly. But this is just another way in that "evil feeds upon itself." :D :D :D
The point I'm trying to make here is that having the prestige class implies that one of the gods is giving your wizard the additional advantages the class bestows, which were advantages formerly granted by Takhisis. This includes the divination bonuses, the spell progression increases, etc.
If you wanted to play a current era Thorn Knight, you'd need to either be a sorcerer (and take the PrC) or a non-PrC wizard. Within the context of the story, the wizard Thorn Knight is simply aligning himself with the Dark Knight beliefs but isn't gaining any of those additional benefits his sorcerer companions are gaining.
Cheers,
Cam
The point I'm trying to make here is that having the prestige class implies that one of the gods is giving your wizard the additional advantages the class bestows, which were advantages formerly granted by Takhisis. This includes the divination bonuses, the spell progression increases, etc.
So if these bonuses came from a divine presence before (which I am not disputing, because we know they cam e from Takhisis), where are they coming from now? And what is stopping wizard thorn knights from acquiring them as well?
Oh and I know that Authors of Novels and authors of sourcebooks do not always talk to each other but the nightmaster refers to Hoarst as "...oh I assure you my good wizard..."
So if these bonuses came from a divine presence before (which I am not disputing, because we know they cam e from Takhisis), where are they coming from now? And what is stopping wizard thorn knights from acquiring them as well?
Drawde learned how to use dark sorcery to duplicate the same effects. This isn't an option for wizards, however.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes, that guy in the Solamnia trilogy wa a wizard and not a sorcereer.
I'm pretty sure he was a sorcerer, also. The terms aren't always clearly defined in the books themselves; words like "mage," "sorcerer," and "wizard" are fairly interchangeable regardless of the kind of magic the spellcaster's using.
If he was, in fact, a true wizard (and became so after the War of Souls) then he's a renegade and isn't benefiting from the additional powers of the prestige class the way his predecessors did. In game terms he'd be a straight wizard, perhaps with some levels in fighter and eldritch knight.
Cheers,
Cam
He used spellbooks.
Many sorcerers continue to use spellbooks as a focus for their magic. Dark Knights, especially, continue to reference these tomes as a means of framing spells in their mind, as a guide to shaping the power of ambient magic. Doubtless, Hoarst could learn to do without them, but he's the type to rely on one or two effects and use them often, which is a common trait of the Thorn Knights.
Cheers,
Cam
And where has that been stated before?
About the same place that says the Legion of Steel is an ancient and secret order within the Knights of Solamnia.
More seriously, this was one of the variant rules in the Heroes of Sorcery boxed set for SAGA which transitioned over and will more than likely show up in the novels more often.
Cheers,
Cam
Drawde learned how to use dark sorcery to duplicate the same effects. This isn't an option for wizards, however.
So what you are saying is that these supernatural and extraordinary abilities are a by-product of a certain way of tapping into chaos-spawned wild taught by Drawde during the chaos years?
That I can accept. It certainly is better than
Posted by cam_banks
He might call himself that, but he wouldn't have the prestige class
even though the Divination specialization skills of the thorn knights didn't come into play until after Theo took up the reins (so this ability wasn't there before he did so, or at least that is what it seem slike to me).
Just so I understand. If somehow the Knighthood ever took a new divine patron then Wizards could qualify for the class as well?
Just so I understand. If somehow the Knighthood ever took a new divine patron then Wizards could qualify for the class as well?
That's the theory, yes. None of the other gods has gone this route, however.
Cheers,
Cam
Besides the dark knights might say they are lawful and live by a code, but by the way they are acting now I am not so sure.
Ok here is something I have been meaning to ask. Who in the abyss is Drawde? I looked him up on the Nexus and found the stats and basic outline of what he did for the Knights. But what book did this all become fact? Is it the Solaminia trilogy or something?
Theo Drawde comes from the SAGA days, in Heroes of Sorcery I believe. He learned the power of Wild Sorcery from the Shadow Sorcerer, and became leader of the Knights of the Thorn, who he in turn taught sorcery too.
He has most recently struck an alliance with Gellidus. You can read more about that in Price of Courage.
Wow... I even have that one too... (The saga setting that is). I will have to check out the Price of Courage. He sounds like a really intresting BBEG
Drawde's statistics are also in Knightly Orders of Ansalon, too. Which is another great book everybody should have.
Cheers,
Cam
"Blowing the dust off of an ancient tome, he opened the spellbook on his table and spent more than twenty-four straight hours studying the complicated workings of a dangerous and powerful incantation. He din't sleep and only took small sips of water for sustenance. His entire intellect was devoted to the effort of absorbing the arcane, mystical gestures, and almost unpronouceable sounds. Finally, certain that he could cast the spell flawlessly, he closed the book and made ready to leave."
This is from the book "The Measure and the Truth" pg.322 by Douglas Niles, the same author who wrote "Wizards' Conclave" (so he knows the difference between Sorcerers and Wizards in Krynn), detailing the efforts of the Thorn Knight Hoarst memorizing a spell (the gate spell that he casts later I presume). If as Cam states that no Thorn Knight (wizards)s exist in Kryyn after the War of Souls, then I would like to hear what he says about this.
Sorry had to edit tahat.
Thanks Cam.
If as Cam states that no Thorn Knights exist in Kryyn after the War of Souls, then I would like to hear what he says about this.
No Thorn Knight wizards do.
Hoarst is using a spellbook and a large amount of time in order to properly prepare himself to cast the spell. He's not cast it before, or at least not often, so he's using the spellbook as a means of focusing his comprehension and running the workings around in his mind. Many of the Academy sorcerers did exactly this, as did Coryn (using her grandmother's spellbook) even though she was a sorcerer at the time as well.
If you want to put this in game terms, Hoarst is either switching out one of his known spells with a new spell (having advanced a level) or he's got the Arcane Preparation feat.
Cheers,
Cam
My guess is that Hoarst has undergone an epiphany, going from sorcerer to wizard. He acts outside of the Thorn Knights proper, so he's not looked at funny there, and he is also a renegade.
Seems easier to explain than shoehorning a wizard into sorcerer's shoes. But, that's largely open to interpretation. I just think Niles preferred the flavor of wizards and gave into literary license. ;)
To Clarkvalentine, why not?
Oh, lessee...
Aurak draconians with wings, kapak draconians colored black, no death throes for dragonspawn, gnomes who don't act very gnomish, the organization of the Knights of Solamnia being totally off, the Legion of Steel as an ancient sect of the Knights of Solamnia who swear by the Oath and the Measure...
Just to name a few. ;)
This series held a lot of promise, and the poor continuity really distracts from that. The battle scenes are excellent. I thought I'd be more upset at the bombards, but they read well. There are some great characters too.
I'm not Clark, but I played him on TV ...
And a damn fine job he did, too!
;)
If as Cam states that no Thorn Knight (wizards)s exist in Kryyn after the War of Souls, then I would like to hear what he says about this.
Sorry had to edit tahat.
Thanks Cam.
I will miss the Knights of Takhisi and Neraka. It was a intresting and a "good" ;) idea. If the Gods love call it early to itself. But why so early? I believe DL go ever more Disney.
The good people wins ever and ever and ever and ever...