I have had a few days off from work and decided to play with AKS Hex Mapper. Here's the end result with information for the latest Dungeon AP included.
Updated Isle of Dread Map
--Ray.
However, I seem to remember when I checked the scales of the original maps from X1, that the large scale one should have been at 4mph, not 6mph.
Can't find the thread right now though.
I just double-checked X1 and Thorf's maps. Both are using 6 mile hexes so I'm in good company.
There's also a built-in error. The hexes on the original map are turned 90 degrees so that the points go north-south rather than east-west as on "normal" hex maps. Couldn't fix that one. It's a limitation of Hex Mapper.
--Ray.
I hereby propose that any further references to a 'Scarlet Brotherhood' be translated into the 'Vermilion Fists of Bozdogan', a Hulean sect noted for its love of open-handed fighting, playing around with strange Entropic forces beyond their control, and overly Byzantine plotting coupled with clumsy and haphazard execution of their plans. Hule's version of a James Bond villain, in other words. Hodasus doesn't like the order by any means, but considers them a good dumping ground for those Hulean notables too important to be openly snubbed.
I only discovered it trying to reconcile the X1 maps to convert to 8mph.
Hmmm. "Scarlet Brotherhood Encampment". Not those posers.
I thought about taking that one out entirely but in the end I left it in for the STAP. Besides, I've decided to have a disorganized group of evil sun worshiping weirdos called the Scarlet Brotherhood IMC. It's just a simple work-around. They certainly aren't going to be Greyhawk's Scarlet Brotherhood. That would be a real PITA to fit into Mystara!
--Ray.
I only discovered it trying to reconcile the X1 maps to convert to 8mph.
So it appears that TSR made a mathematical error in 1981! I'm not going to change my version of the map though. I'd have to try to explain that to everyone on the Paizo board and I don't know if I could.
--Ray.
So it appears that TSR made a mathematical error in 1981! I'm not going to change my version of the map though. I'd have to try to explain that to everyone on the Paizo board and I don't know if I could.
--Ray.
Yes, and only we know the truth.
What is, exactly, the Huhueteotl's Throne?
IIRC, It's a ruined Olman city where strange lights appear near the top of the ziggurat. I don't think it's going to be used in the STAP so they just placed a hook for the DM to flesh out. About 1/2 of encounter areas on the map are just hooks. There's also a new village, Farside, that is completely written up in the magazine.
I highly recommend Dungeon #143. Even if you don't play v3.5 edition, I think there is much inside it's pages that could be rolled back to an earlier versions of the game. Goto you LFGS and buy it today!
--Ray.
IIRC, It's a ruined Olman city where strange lights appear near the top of the ziggurat.
Are the Olmans oltecs?
I don't think it's going to be used in the STAP so they just placed a hook for the DM to flesh out. About 1/2 of encounter areas on the map are just hooks. There's also a new village, Farside, that is completely written up in the magazine.
I see. I'm asking this because I'm working with Giampaolo (a.k.a. Agathokles) on the oltecs and azcans, including a more complete pantheon for them. And Huhueteotl (or Huehueteotl) is one of these new Immortals (that would be Orisis).
The IoD is also a place of interest for me since I guess a connections could be estabilishe between the orimulian and the davanian oltecs, the Stonecarve culture of Colima, RW Rapa Nui culture and the IoD. And now we can follow the way the oltecs did during the GRoF, from the KW to Arypt (Katapec civilisation), passing through the IoD (Huehueteotl's throne) and north davania (Ixachitl/Manacapuru)
I highly recommend Dungeon #143. Even if you don't play v3.5 edition, I think there is much inside it's pages that could be rolled back to an earlier versions of the game. Goto you LFGS and buy it today!
Oh, but I do play 3.5 :D
I guess I'll indeed, looks like there is some interesting info at there
Are the Olmans oltecs?
I believe so. The Olmans are to Greyhawk as the Oltecs are to Mystara as the Olmecs are to Earth.
I see. I'm asking this because I'm working with Giampaolo (a.k.a. Agathokles) on the oltecs and azcans, including a more complete pantheon for them. And Huhueteotl (or Huehueteotl) is one of these new Immortals (that would be Orisis).
I wonder if the guys at Paizo made a spelling error in #143? I double-checked and it's, "Huhueteotl" in the magazine or is this just a case of an alternate spelling?
EDIT: Answering my own question.... Huehueteotl is an Aztec god (http://www.crystalinks.com/aztecgods.html so I'm guessing that Paizo made an error.
The IoD is also a place of interest for me since I guess a connections could be estabilished between the orimulian and the davanian oltecs, the Stonecarve culture of Colima, RW Rapa Nui culture and the IoD. And now we can follow the way the oltecs did during the GRoF, from the KW to Arypt (Katapec civilisation), passing through the IoD (Huehueteotl's throne) and north davania (Ixachitl/Manacapuru)
This is really cool! I could use that when I run my "adjusted" STAP/X1. I think I am going to just use the setting information without the STAP campaign information. I just don't like the idea of a campaign in Mystara where the PCs fight demons. .....Back on topic! You will also be interested in The Fangs of Zotzilaha, the Shrine of Zotzilaha, The Temple of the Jaguar, Thanaclan (in the up-coming Dungeon #145), Mantru (also Dungeon #145) and Standing Stones. I think you will probably want to buy #143 - #145 for your project.
--Ray.
I believe so. The Olmans are to Greyhawk as the Oltecs are to Mystara as the Olmecs are to Earth.
The Olman are somewhat more like the Aztecs than the Olmecs, at least from the various depictions I've seen. The Olman gods are not native to the world of Greyhawk, and it is alluded (in The Scarlet Brotherhood) that they originally came to Oerth from Earth.
I wonder if the guys at Paizo made a spelling error in #143? I double-checked and it's, "Huhueteotl" in the magazine or is this just a case of an alternate spelling?
Not Paizo's error- that's how the name was spelled in The Scarlet Brotherhood (a 2E supplement). The guys at Paizo are just going by what was written before.
Answering my own question.... Huehueteotl is an Aztec god (http://www.crystalinks.com/aztecgods.html so I'm guessing that Paizo made an error.
Indeed. Actually, since Sons of Azca used so much RW aztec legends, and since only Otzitiotl, Kalaktatla and Atzanteotl aren't RW aztec god names (BTW, Otzitiotl sounds just like his RW counterpart), I guess it wouldn't be a problem to bring the entire (or almost) RW aztec pantheon to the azcans, which includes Huehueteotl.
This is really cool! I could use that when I run my "adjusted" STAP/X1.
Thanks
I think I am going to just use the setting information without the STAP campaign information. I just don't like the idea of a campaign in Mystara where the PCs fight demons.
Did they included demons at the IoD?
You will also be interested in The Fangs of Zotzilaha, the Shrine of Zotzilaha, The Temple of the Jaguar, Thanaclan (in the up-coming Dungeon #145), Mantru (also Dungeon #145) and Standing Stones. I think you will probably want to buy #143 - #145 for your project.
Yes, this all sound very interesting for the oltecs and azcans. Is all these places at the IoD?
The Olman are somewhat more like the Aztecs than the Olmecs, at least from the various depictions I've seen.
Pehaps more like toltecs, like the mystaran Oltecs?
The Olman gods are not native to the world of Greyhawk, and it is alluded (in The Scarlet Brotherhood) that they originally came to Oerth from Earth.
Like Mystara and the norse gods situation?
Not Paizo's error- that's how the name was spelled in The Scarlet Brotherhood (a 2E supplement). The guys at Paizo are just going by what was written before.
I see. That's not a big problem, anyway ;)
BTW, what exactly is the Scarlet Brotherhood?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dungeon/savageTide/huhueteotlOrHuehueteotl&page=1#135223
James Jacobs seems to believe that it should be Huehueteotl. I wonder what will end up being canon.
--Ray.
Pehaps more like toltecs, like the mystaran Oltecs?
Maybe. There isn't really a lot of info on the Olman, actually. They first appeared, I believe, in Lost Shrine of Tamoachan for 1E, but I don't think there was much info on them there. They seemed to be sort of a generic Central American Indian culture- though again, I could be wrong, as I have never played or even read that module.
I don't think anything else was much done with them until Sean K. Reynolds' The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement for 2E, which had them, again, as just a generic Central American Indian culture. This time, though, he pulled the Aztec gods whole cloth from RW mythology (and even suggested, as I said, that that was where they arrived on Oerth from).
IMO, this was a bad move, since it just didn't seem to fit very well. As much as people complain about the insertion of Kara-Tur into the Realms, this was much the same thing. It was during a period when it seemed TSR was just dropping real world cultures wholesale into their campaign worlds, not really putting much thought or effort into how to try to create a more organic blend of those cultures and how/why they might have actually developed on these worlds. It almost seemed, to me, like they were handwaving any real creative development, relying instead on the existing RW information about these cultures to provide them with depth.
Anyway...
Like Mystara and the norse gods situation?
Similar, though the gods of the Olman are actually supposed to be the RW Aztec gods, rather than the situation with the norse Immortals- who have been explained as actually being native to Mystara despite the naming similarity.
I see. That's not a big problem, anyway ;)
Actually, James Jacobs just explained on the Paizo boards that the name was a misspelling on their part. So evidently they recognized that the names were misspelled in The Scarlet Brotherhood and forgot (though intended) to correct them.
BTW, what exactly is the Scarlet Brotherhood?
They are an organization on Oerth of racial purists, essentially. Originally of Suel origins (one of Oerth's original racial stock- basically Aryans; white skin, pale hair, blue eyes), they fled the Rain of Colorless Fire that destoyed the Suel Empire thousands of years ago (and created the Sea of Dust) and set up shop in a new location in the Flanaess of Oerth (somewhere to the southeast of Greyhawk). They are an insidious group of villains, with agents located across the continent. Their goals, again, are domination over the "lesser" races of Oerth. They are most traditionally connected to being monks (back in 1E, IIRC, they were pretty much all evil monks), though they have a diverse group of associations with them.
The closest parallel to them on Mystara would probably be the Master and his minions that rule Hule (the Diviners and such). Their motivations and organization seem to be similar. Given their origins, though (the Rain of Colorless Fire), I could see making a case for them being from the other side of Mystara, and linking their history with Blackmoor/Thonia. Perhaps they are the remnants of the Thonian Empire or possibly Afridhi (though I'd say Thonian might work better).
Hmm. Now you've got me thinking about them a lot. It would be kind of cool to have remnants of the Thonian Empire and an underground "Scarlet Brotherhood" sort of organization at work in the Known World. I've always thought "Thyatian" was pretty close to "Thonian" (okay, so it's mainly the "Th" and the "ian" ;)). Maybe the Thonians fled to Davania after Blackmoor blew up, and became one of the more influential Davanian tribes, and now they work behind the scenes in Thyatis...
Needs a little more thought, but...
IDid they included demons at the IoD?
The kopru in the Savage Tide are worshippers of Demogorgon, so that's where the demonic ties come in. Kopru presence on the Isle of Dread over the centuries have led to a large demonic influx in that region, essentially.
James Jacobs seems to believe that it should be Huehueteotl. I wonder what will end up being canon.
Too late now to change anything on any printed maps, so my vote goes to having BOTH spellings be accurate. It's a regional dialectic difference. Yeah, that's it.
I guess this is only minor detail that doesn't really affects anything, and could indeed be another variant of the name Huehueteotl (just like Ueueteotl). One bigger problem here would be which Immortal is Huehueteotl/Huhueteotl/Ueueteotl (in other words, is Orisis an Immortal or just an alias for another Immortal?)
Maybe. There isn't really a lot of info on the Olman, actually. They first appeared, I believe, in Lost Shrine of Tamoachan for 1E, but I don't think there was much info on them there. They seemed to be sort of a generic Central American Indian culture- though again, I could be wrong, as I have never played or even read that module.
Well, I can't say that's different from the Oltec situation, anyway...
The closest parallel to them on Mystara would probably be the Master and his minions that rule Hule (the Diviners and such). Their motivations and organization seem to be similar. Given their origins, though (the Rain of Colorless Fire), I could see making a case for them being from the other side of Mystara, and linking their history with Blackmoor/Thonia. Perhaps they are the remnants of the Thonian Empire or possibly Afridhi (though I'd say Thonian might work better).
Pehaps the modern Hule organisation comes, somehow, from old Thonia or the Afridhi, and the M-Scarlet Brotherhood (BTW, this name sounds very apropriate for the SC region... pehaps there is a connection between it and the Chaotic Brotherhood/Order of the Flame?) is part of this history?
Pehaps the modern Hule organisation comes, somehow, from old Thonia or the Afridhi, and the M-Scarlet Brotherhood (BTW, this name sounds very apropriate for the SC region... pehaps there is a connection between it and the Chaotic Brotherhood/Order of the Flame?) is part of this history?
Although perhaps not very realistic given the time gap between the Age of Blackmoor and modern Mystara, I like the connection you guys are talking about.
Perhaps the Hule region was at one point settled by Thonian colonists: With Thonia being finally conquered by Blackmoor, a group of Thonians fleeing persecution (or justice) made their way to Brun attempting to establish a new Thonian realm on that continent. They held the belief that Thonians were a pure race and that their way of life should be preserved at any cost. This philosophy somehow survived through the GRoF and through the generations that followed as the area gradually became what is currently Hule. What do you think?
The same could be used for the Afridhi if that is more desirable.
Havard
Pehaps the modern Hule organisation comes, somehow, from old Thonia or the Afridhi, and the M-Scarlet Brotherhood (BTW, this name sounds very apropriate for the SC region... pehaps there is a connection between it and the Chaotic Brotherhood/Order of the Flame?) is part of this history?
It's possible that a Scarlet Brotherhood might be related to the Nithians in the area (perhaps the warriors who wielded red-steel and had pre-legacies), and that they had a Hulean faction. With the removal of Nithia, The Huleans would just assume the Scarlet Brotherhood to be their invention.
The big problem with the SB being Hulean is that Hule was never a great seafairing country.
Although perhaps not very realistic given the time gap between the Age of Blackmoor and modern Mystara, I like the connection you guys are talking about.
True, the Great Rain of Fire was longer in the past than the corresponding Rain of Colorless Fire that led to the emigration of the Scarlet Brotherhood (3000 years on Mystara as compared to a little more than 1000 for Oerth).
I believe DA1 says something about Thonia, though I don't recall offhand exactly what (something along the lines of it still surviving).
Hmm... Just thought of something. What if the remnants of Thonia that decided to become the Mystaran "Scarlet Brotherhood" journeyed post-cataclysm to some lands near to Alphatia- either the Alatians or Bellissaria or something. Then, after Alphatian Landfall, they emigrated elsewhere out of a desire to stay away from those invaders, and came to- Honor Island, in the Sea of Dread?
It could explain the mysterious origins of the Honor Islanders. They are definitely isolationist (perhaps out of a sense of racial superiority?). Maybe they are the "lost" group of Thonians?
The big problem with the SB being Hulean is that Hule was never a great seafairing country.
The SB aren't really seafaring people either. They are known mostly for their isolationist nature and their having agents infiltrating other nations to interject their domination agendas. The main reason, IIRC, that they have any degree of seafaring ability currently is because they arranged for the assassination of all the rulers of the Holds of the Sea Princes, and took over that nation.
Of course, there doesn't seem to be a corresponding seafaring nation that Hule can/has taken over. Though I do seem to recall that they have a great deal of influence on at least one of the Slagovich area nations, and some of those have seafaring capability.
They are an organization on Oerth of racial purists, essentially. Originally of Suel origins (one of Oerth's original racial stock- basically Aryans; white skin, pale hair, blue eyes), they fled the Rain of Colorless Fire that destoyed the Suel Empire thousands of years ago (and created the Sea of Dust) and set up shop in a new location in the Flanaess of Oerth (somewhere to the southeast of Greyhawk). They are an insidious group of villains, with agents located across the continent. Their goals, again, are domination over the "lesser" races of Oerth. They are most traditionally connected to being monks (back in 1E, IIRC, they were pretty much all evil monks), though they have a diverse group of associations with them.
The closest parallel to them on Mystara would probably be the Master and his minions that rule Hule (the Diviners and such). Their motivations and organization seem to be similar. Given their origins, though (the Rain of Colorless Fire), I could see making a case for them being from the other side of Mystara, and linking their history with Blackmoor/Thonia. Perhaps they are the remnants of the Thonian Empire or possibly Afridhi (though I'd say Thonian might work better).
Hmm. Now you've got me thinking about them a lot. It would be kind of cool to have remnants of the Thonian Empire and an underground "Scarlet Brotherhood" sort of organization at work in the Known World. I've always thought "Thyatian" was pretty close to "Thonian" (okay, so it's mainly the "Th" and the "ian" ;)). Maybe the Thonians fled to Davania after Blackmoor blew up, and became one of the more influential Davanian tribes, and now they work behind the scenes in Thyatis...
Needs a little more thought, but...
I disagree that Hule is the closest match to the Scarlet Brotherhood.
I think the Heldannic Knights are a much better match to the Scarlet Brotherhood than Hule, including the Scarlet Brotherhood as they function in the Savage Tide Adventure Path.
Basically, Hule is a regional power that doesn't have a strong navy, and is documented in Dragon Magazine as unwilling to mess with the Thyatian Empire. They have projected force to the east, but mainly on one country, Darokin.
The Heldannic Knights however, are widespread on the world, being found in both Brun and Davania. They have a strong navy, and can project force even into the Hollow World. They also have been willing to cross the Thyatians.
This oppose the Thyatians isn't really applicable in general unless you keep the Sasserine back story in the STAP(which IMO, doesn't need to be kept) and have Thyatis be the ones who conquered Sasserine and occupied it until the Scarlet Brotherhood equivalent came in to liberate it.
Regardless of that, a bigger question is what would be the Mystara Equivalent for the Pirates of the Crimson Fleet?
This is a major naval power, with their own pirate port and the leaders have pacts with demons.
On the Thonian idea...the STAP has the Scarlet Brotherhood maintaining forts in jungle lands similar to the Lawful Brotherhood in the module X9 The Savage Coast. The SB is just not an underground organization, but a political power.
So the Thonian underground matches the motives of the SB, but do we really need Greyhawk organizations to have the same goals if they are transported to Mystara?
I should emphasize, I have not set ways of how things should be done, Hule certainly could work as an SB substitute for example. But I do have one thing I think we should not do...basically just copy things like the Scarlet Brotherhood verbatim into Mystara. It just turns Mystara into an everything but a kitchen sink setting.
So the Thonian underground matches the motives of the SB, but do we really need Greyhawk organizations to have the same goals if they are transported to Mystara?
I should emphasize, I have not set ways of how things should be done, Hule certainly could work as an SB substitute for example. But I do have one thing I think we should not do...basically just copy things like the Scarlet Brotherhood verbatim into Mystara. It just turns Mystara into an everything but a kitchen sink setting.
I think you make some valid points here. How close we need to model things to the Greyhawk version really would depend on how the STAP develops, won't it? So far I think a national power could easily replace the Scarlet Brotherhood. It might even make it feel more Mystaran. Hule is a possibility that has been discussed, your suggestion of the HK looks equally good to me. It is true that Hule hasn't shown itself as a Naval Power per AC1000, but I kinda like them developing into one by AC1010. I always used to explain the absence of Thyatis on the Savage Coast by the fact that Hule blocked all land-based and sea based communication between the Known World and the Savage Coast.
OTOH, I like the idea of a Thonian underground independently of all of this. It is too interesting a concept not to be explored further...
Havard
It is true that Hule hasn't shown itself as a Naval Power per AC1000, but I kinda like them developing into one by AC1010.
They do have some sort of navy by 1010- the Sea Reavers of Hule terrorize Darokin shipping throughout PWA 1010, though they're not much heard of after that.
All apologizes if my post is not directly related to this thread.
I prepare a campaign using the 'classic' D&D rules (RC edition) and need to create some maps.
Visiting this forum and reading threads about mapping I've seen these wonderful maps made by Thorf and I try to contact him... but with no success.
Is there anybody here who could send me these hexe tiles for Illustrator (my email is in my profile)? It will be very helpful to me.
Many thanks!
Sea Reavers of Hule terrorize Darokin shipping throughout PWA 1010
I remember this from the PWAs!
This could have been a Hulean privateer fleet. This could be used for the Crimson Fleet in STAP. IIRC, the Sea Reavers are defeated but perhaps they weren't completely defeated. Maybe a remanent just decided to retreat south to lick their wounds and they become the pirates at Rat's End. While there, they spend some time rebuilding and only have five ships ready for the attack on Farshore. Workable?--Ray.
Roger
Is there anybody here who could send me these hexe tiles for Illustrator (my email is in my profile)? It will be very helpful to me.
Haven't seen Thorf (or Marco) for awhile, but you dowload the files from here.
Regards
Gary
I remember this from the PWAs!
--Ray.
Workable yes. But the Crimson Fleet is one of the major foes in STAP, and according to the STAP overview an adventure includes infiltrating the Crimson Fleet port/city, which looks to be a pirate town of no laws.
Plus the Crimson Fleet leaders close ties to demons provide a means to reach the Abyss, and the leaders probably have demon taints and abilities.
On top of that they are the ones that are trading with the kopru for the savage tide pearls and selling them in ports over the world, which is the impetus for the players to confront Demogorgon on his home plane.
My impression of the Crimson Fleet is a powerful group of pirates and smugglers that have enough resources to field a navy that can match or nearly match the Ierendi fleet or couple of Thyatian fleets when they bring their heavy hitters(like demon vrocks).
So you could break this Crimson Fleet up into several unreleated groups of pirates that have no common ties, but that would change some of the character of STAP.
As we have been saying, with more developing in the next few months, those of us who aren't running it now can afford to see how it plays out. I think there are 2-3 adventures left on the Isle of Dread, at least 1 at Crimson Fleet port HQ, and the last 3-4 leave the campaign world and move onto the outer planes.
At that point all these known unknowns will become known knowns, which will just leave us with the unknown unknowns...
Someone mentioned the Crimson Fleet/Red Steel connection, too- so you could always have the Crimson Fleet be from one of the Savage Barony regions originally (Texeirans or Vilaverdan origins come to mind- they've got colonies of their own all over).
Haven't seen Thorf (or Marco) for awhile, but you dowload the files from here.
Thanks Gary!
The Master of Hule, in module X5, had commerce with demons (according to the pictures of Hosadus in the temple in Magden). So if one were to run with the Hule/Crimson Fleet connection, you could draw on those demonic ties there- perhaps they became more Entropic than the Master currently seems to be and went their own way.
Someone mentioned the Crimson Fleet/Red Steel connection, too- so you could always have the Crimson Fleet be from one of the Savage Barony regions originally (Texeirans or Vilaverdan origins come to mind- they've got colonies of their own all over).
Ooohh
I really like the potential of this idea. What if the Crimson Fleet were not to get its powers from demonic templates in Mystara? What if instead they used crimson essence to give themselves powers, some offshoot or rival of Inheritors? The main villain in Dungeon #143 has been changed physically in ways that could be approximated with the Legacies and Afflictions of the Red Curse.
They would have to keep their powers outside of the Savage Coast, but that could be explained by their demon allies...
What if the Savage Tide was some kind of tainted variant of the Red Curse?
As for Hule or the Heldannic Knights being the Crimson Fleet, I suspect we will learn that the Crimson Fleet has ties to Demogorgon, but that could be changed to an Immortal in a temporary alliance with Demogorgon, like Loki or Thanatos impersonating Vanya(I keep forgetting who is really in charge of Hattians and the Heldannic Knights).