- Are the Goblin Spiders old-fashioned X1 aranea without shape-changing ability?
- Are the Goblin Spiders shape-changing Aranea like those found in Herath?
- Are they the Goblin Spiders of Kara-Tur (AD&D Oriental Adventures): like neaderthal aranea (barely intelligent giant spiders with parrot-like voice mimicry)?
Are the Goblin Spiders old-fashioned X1 aranea without shape-changing ability?
Not necessarily. Many oriental monsters are shapechangers, or evil spirits (in the Ethengar sense). So, Goblin spiders could be Aranea (shapechanging or not), evil spirits, or even werespiders (IIRC, these appear at some point in Thothia).
Are they the Goblin Spiders of Kara-Tur (AD&D Oriental Adventures): like neaderthal aranea (barely intelligent giant spiders with parrot-like voice mimicry)?
That's another, equally valid, possibility, of course.
GP
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?parent_id=100178&word=
but I still like options 1 and 3 since the shapechanging thing is a little over-done.
That's just my preference.
In any case, I'd just keep Ochalea as the M-Orient rather than putting all of these M-Oriental cultures into Skothar. It's a pretty large and thus far mostly undeveloped place with obvious oriental ties already. Might as well make the best use of it.
Personally, I'm inclined to just keep them aranea, though with a different culture and origins. I don't really see the need to create monsters that are virtually identical when there are suitable monsters already. (For instance, I think TSR should have just used the Ogre-Mage rather than creating new Oni for Oriental Adventures, as that is essentially what the inspiration for that monster was in the first place. The Gozu-No Oni should be just a [variant?] Minotaur, etc.)
That's what I did in my work for Ochalea: the Ox-headed demon is the Bargda (an underused Mystaran monster), and the One-eyed demon is the Cyclops.
Spirits are the same as Ethengar spirits, and spirit folk is converted to standard shapechangers and planetouched (Aranea and Lycanthropes on one hand, Genasi, Aasimar and Tiefling on the other, rather than using Hengeyoukai or Spirit Folk from OA).
In any case, I'd just keep Ochalea as the M-Orient rather than putting all of these M-Oriental cultures into Skothar. It's a pretty large and thus far mostly undeveloped place with obvious oriental ties already. Might as well make the best use of it.
Definitely, at least as long as M-Orient means M-China.
However, if we look at M-Orient in a wider perspective, then we have at least three M-Orients:
1) Ochalea: as you said, it's the major M-Oriental nation in the "known" areas of Mystara; however, it only covers M-China.
2) Patera: the true cradle of M-Oriental culture, it has M-Japan as well as M-Burma, M-Singapore, and M-Malaysia.
3) Skothar: there are two M-Oriental cultures here, both Rakasta (Sherkasta, Mountain Sherkasta and Cloud Pardasta), the M-Tibetan Tagh and the M-Indonesian Harimau-Belang and Rimau-Dahan (in southern-central Skothar, starting from the western reaches of Tangor bay and going up to the mountains).
Minor M-Oriental civilizations include the M-Japanese nomadic Rakasta in the Yazak Steppes and the Yasuko tribe in Davania.
Minor M-Oriental civilizations include the M-Japanese nomadic Rakasta in the Yazak Steppes and the Yasuko tribe in Davania.
And Bellayne too, in a minor degree, mixed with M-England (pehaps sometthing like Meiji Revolution, but with a XVI century english culture instead of a XIX one?)
And Bellayne too, in a minor degree, mixed with M-England (pehaps sometthing like Meiji Revolution, but with a XVI century english culture instead of a XIX one?)
Yes, those are the same as the Yazak Rakasta -- they sometimes wander into the civilized areas of Bellayne. The sedentary culture is completely different, though -- and definitely Elizabethian British.
GP
1) Ochalea: as you said, it's the major M-Oriental nation in the "known" areas of Mystara; however, it only covers M-China.
As far as has been developed so far, yes. Personally, given the amount of "culture cram" that is evidenced elsewhere in Mystara (the Known World, in particular, but also to an extent the Savage Coast), I don't see any reason we can't stick a couple of other non-Chinese cultures into Ochalea myself.
Of course, China itself covers a wide range of diverse cultural/ethnic groups; I think that westerners tend to homogenize Chinese culture, rather than view it as a mix of regional cultures. So it is conceivable to keep it exclusively Chinese if one prefers.
2) Patera: the true cradle of M-Oriental culture, it has M-Japan as well as M-Burma, M-Singapore, and M-Malaysia.
It also has M-India, which is already covered by Sind, so there certainly is no reason to keep any of these cultures exclusive to Patera if one wants to drop them in somewhere else.
Another option in both cases is to do something similar to what Bruce did with some of the Savage Coast nations, and make them representative of different eras of the same culture. For Rajahstan, I did something like that in my (little) development, where I made it sort of a blend of the Hinduized kingdoms of SE asia rather than just India (which is what it originally seems to be). The Shahjapur culture in the HW is another example of this- being Mogul India as opposed to the more traditional rajahstani India of Sind.
3) Skothar: there are two M-Oriental cultures here, both Rakasta (Sherkasta, Mountain Sherkasta and Cloud Pardasta), the M-Tibetan Tagh and the M-Indonesian Harimau-Belang and Rimau-Dahan (in southern-central Skothar, starting from the western reaches of Tangor bay and going up to the mountains).
I'd completely forgotten some of the rakasta were from Skothar! Those are some good points. Also, another example of "duplicate" cultures- the Lhamsa region of Glantri is a fairly obvious M-Tibetan region.
... the Yasuko tribe in Davania.
Has it ever been determined who/what the Yasuko are supposed to be? I know there was a discussion on the MML some time ago, but I don't recall the result.
It also has M-India, which is already covered by Sind, so there certainly is no reason to keep any of these cultures exclusive to Patera if one wants to drop them in somewhere else.
Another option in both cases is to do something similar to what Bruce did with some of the Savage Coast nations, and make them representative of different eras of the same culture. For Rajahstan, I did something like that in my (little) development, where I made it sort of a blend of the Hinduized kingdoms of SE asia rather than just India (which is what it originally seems to be). The Shahjapur culture in the HW is another example of this- being Mogul India as opposed to the more traditional rajahstani India of Sind.
Yes, we do have two places to include in the M-Orient list, that are M-India: Sind and Jaibul, and Shahjapur. However, I never felt India as Orient (or, at least, not in the same way China and Japan, for example).
I'd completely forgotten some of the rakasta were from Skothar! Those are some good points. Also, another example of "duplicate" cultures- the Lhamsa region of Glantri is a fairly obvious M-Tibetan region.
Of course, this glantian region and Ethengar itself should also be included ;)
Yes, those are the same as the Yazak Rakasta -- they sometimes wander into the civilized areas of Bellayne. The sedentary culture is completely different, though -- and definitely Elizabethian British.
I guess dividing the "english rakastas" and "oriental rakastas" (of the steppes and, sometimes, inside of Bellayne) works better than a mixed english/japan culture for Bellayne. However, I guess RS material intended to go with the mixing idea, putting Rakastayne as the only native language of Bellayne (even the significant elven population of Bellayne should spoke this language, instead of elven, that, BTW, is common only at Torreón... hm, I just had this idea, and if this popular elven at Torreón is, actually, Belcadizian?
).Rakastayne uses ideograms, just like japanese, and there are a lot of pictures of samurai-like honorbounds, and I guess any of the rakastas wear ocidental clothes too. And there is also another hint of the Bellayne-Japan connection: the helmets picture, that could, possibly, represents the City-States, the Savage Baronies, the Barbary Kingdoms (Robrenn and Eusdria), Renardy and Bellayne, respectively. But, of course, I could be wrong about this and, as I said before, I really think the M-England only Bellayne idea works better ;)
As far as has been developed so far, yes. Personally, given the amount of "culture cram" that is evidenced elsewhere in Mystara (the Known World, in particular, but also to an extent the Savage Coast), I don't see any reason we can't stick a couple of other non-Chinese cultures into Ochalea myself.
Of course, China itself covers a wide range of diverse cultural/ethnic groups; I think that westerners tend to homogenize Chinese culture, rather than view it as a mix of regional cultures. So it is conceivable to keep it exclusively Chinese if one prefers.
There's probably no need to add non-"Chinese" cultures to Ochalea. But as you suggest there's definitely room to add non-Han Chinese cultures to Ochalea, or even pick up on the differences between the various dynasties.
There's probably no need to add non-"Chinese" cultures to Ochalea. But as you suggest there's definitely room to add non-Han Chinese cultures to Ochalea, or even pick up on the differences between the various dynasties.
That's the solution I chose in my recent work on Ochalea: the provinces are somewhat different in culture, religion, population and political bias, sometimes mirroring RW difference between areas/eras of China.
Note that even within the Han ethnic group there are several different languages and cultures (e.g., Hakka, Cantonese) that can be used.
The Ogre Magi and the Pardasta (the two larger non-human minorities -- Lupins are fully integrated) should also use M-Chinese (or related) languages.
GP
I guess dividing the "english rakastas" and "oriental rakastas" (of the steppes and, sometimes, inside of Bellayne) works better than a mixed english/japan culture for Bellayne. However, I guess RS material intended to go with the mixing idea, putting Rakastayne as the only native language of Bellayne
Indeed, but it's really quite contradictory, since then the place names and personal names are mostly English. Moreover, you should take into account the fact that everyone in RS is supposed to speak also Slag (i.e., "common"), and that the names in Bellayne might have been thought as Slag names by Tim Beach (who did the compilation of RS).
Unfortunately, this construction doesn't hold -- which is not a big issue for Bellayne itself, but it is a major issue for Dunwick and Cimarron, who are left with an "undocumented" native language, since Slag is Thyatian (Greek/Latin) and the names and cultures don't match at all.
I've tried a solution to this problem here: http://pandius.com/h_lawbro.html
GP
Indeed, but it's really quite contradictory, since then the place names and personal names are mostly English.
Yes, it is, indeed, unless Slag is too common at there; they transtaled place names into Slag and stopped using their old rakastayne names; and, of course, in this case, Slag should be English instead of Latim/Italian ;)
One extra problem with it is that if Bellayne suffer such dramatic cultural chance only with the arrival of the Slag language (more or less at the same time the Ispans arrived, I guess), something should be said, just like for Renardie.
Moreover, you should take into account the fact that everyone in RS is supposed to speak also Slag (i.e., "common"), and that the names in Bellayne might have been thought as Slag names by Tim Beach (who did the compilation of RS).
Unfortunately, this construction doesn't hold -- which is not a big issue for Bellayne itself, but it is a major issue for Dunwick and Cimarron, who are left with an "undocumented" native language, since Slag is Thyatian (Greek/Latin) and the names and cultures don't match at all.
Oh, yes, I remember very well about this issue, believe me...
hehe;) I've tried a solution to this problem here: http://pandius.com/h_lawbro.html
Yes, that's a very nice solution, indeed ;)
But this means that bellaynish culture have a lot in common with Renardy, the Savage Baronies, the City-States and Eusdria (and some of the Herathian regions)? If so, from where come the honorbounds that use the Matara and Mishiya?
Oh, and BTW, if Cimmaron is the mystaran equivalent of the american west (especially Texas), is Dunwick the equivalent of New York, pehaps?
But this means that bellaynish culture have a lot in common with Renardy, the Savage Baronies, the City-States and Eusdria (and some of the Herathian regions)? If so, from where come the honorbounds that use the Matara and Mishiya?
As per Red Steel, the Honorbound derive from the traditional Rakasta culture, not from the modern Bellaynese culture.
Oh, and BTW, if Cimmaron is the mystaran equivalent of the american west (especially Texas), is Dunwick the equivalent of New York, pehaps?
It might be based on the first north american colonies, indeed.
GP
It also has M-India, which is already covered by Sind, so there certainly is no reason to keep any of these cultures exclusive to Patera if one wants to drop them in somewhere else.
Sure, but take into account that several of these already have doubles, either in the Skotharian Sherkasta culture, in Sind or in the HW (IIRC, there's a town in the Merry Pirates area that has an Indonesian or Malaysian name).
For Rajahstan, I did something like that in my (little) development, where I made it sort of a blend of the Hinduized kingdoms of SE asia rather than just India (which is what it originally seems to be).
Which was definitely a good idea, since it match better with the rest of the Pateran cultures, and fits well with the history of the area, while providing a different type of M-Indian culture to play in.
Also, another example of "duplicate" cultures- the Lhamsa region of Glantri is a fairly obvious M-Tibetan region.
Yes, though the Lhamsa region is actually only a monastery -- possibly the smallest "culture" found in Mystara.
Has it ever been determined who/what the Yasuko are supposed to be? I know there was a discussion on the MML some time ago, but I don't recall the result.
Nothing conclusive, IIRC.
What is known, from PWA III, is that the Yasuko tribesmen are perhaps related to the Ochalean, as they share similar appearance. Note, however, that they oddly appear as "flora and fauna" rather than in the description of the various Davanian nations (Milenian city-states, Thyatian Hinterlands and Emerond).
Said flora and fauna entry lists a number of non-human tribes, including the Amalur lizardmen, the centaurs of the grasslands, and the Bogdashkan jungle orcs. The Manacapuru and the Yasuko are not specified as non-humans.
The Manacapuru are, most likely, Oltec-related humans, though their snake-worship might hide Yuan-Ti or similar creatures.
The Yasuko might be one of the following:
1) One type of ethnic minority from Ochalea that fled during the Ogre Magi wars.
2) One type of slave race bred by the Ogre Magi out of Ochalean humans.
3) A race of goblinoids or human-goblinoid crossbreeds that resulted, as the Ogre Magi, from the Beastmen after the GRoF (when Beastmen started breeding true), and later fled after the Ogre Magi wars.
4) An Alphatian population related to the Ochaleans that was lost during the migration from Alphatia or the IoD to Ochalea (they had no magic to keep contact).
Yes, though the Lhamsa region is actually only a monastery -- possibly the smallest "culture" found in Mystara.
There's a town around the monastery as well, from the map in Gaz3. I'd imagine that there might be similar settlements in those mountains (though not documented, due to their small size).
I've actually recently come up with some history and ties to Sind for these folk, though I've yet to sit down and write it up. Want to complete one of my other projects first.
Note, however, that they oddly appear as "flora and fauna"
Interesting- been a while since I read the PWAs.
The Yasuko might be one of the following:
Those are all some very interesting ideas, but the one that immediately sprang to mind when you mentioned the Flora and Fauna to me was yet another possibility-
What if the Yasuko are some sort of sentient plant-race? (Given the Japanese sound to their name, they are probably rakasta of some sort, but we don't have a lot of plant-people on Mystara. Treants, Gakaraks, and Dusanu are the only ones I can think of.)
There's a town around the monastery as well, from the map in Gaz3. I'd imagine that there might be similar settlements in those mountains (though not documented, due to their small size).
Yes, but there's no indication that there is an entire culture there -- if there is one, it is not represented by any fief, noble or large town.
I've actually recently come up with some history and ties to Sind for these folk, though I've yet to sit down and write it up. Want to complete one of my other projects first.
Ok, we'll se what you make out of this.
Those are all some very interesting ideas, but the one that immediately sprang to mind when you mentioned the Flora and Fauna to me was yet another possibility-
What if the Yasuko are some sort of sentient plant-race? (Given the Japanese sound to their name, they are probably rakasta of some sort, but we don't have a lot of plant-people on Mystara. Treants, Gakaraks, and Dusanu are the only ones I can think of.)
For what it's worth, Yasuko is a Japanese woman name, meaning (most likely) "peaceful child".
Note that it is, IMO, very unlikely that the Yasuko be Rakasta, for several reasons:
1) There's plenty of Rakasta in Davania, but most of them (and all those near the Jungle Coast) are M-Africans;
2) The Yasuko are primitive, but M-Japanese Rakasta are very civilized;
3) It is said in the PWA that they look like Ochaleans -- and it can't be for their architecture, since they're primitive tribesmen living in a jungle -- so they must have a minimum of human-like faces, in order to make them recognizable as similar to the Ochaleans.
The intelligent plant idea is not bad -- apart from the problem at point (3) -- and indeed would make a good addition near the Emerondians.
GP