As established elsewhere, the Afridhi were likely a Persian-like people. Would it be far fetched to suggest that they were indeed the ancestors of the Nithians? The Afridhi were an invading force moving into Blackmoor on their raging conquest, but the location of the original Afridhi homeland has never been established. Could their civilization have been as spread out as to having some colonies on Brun?
This could also be where the seed to Nithia's eventual fascination with chaos. It fits well with Marco's idea that the Magien Fire Worshippers are followers of Zugzul.
Thoughts?
Havard
That gets me to thinking, I wonder at the lack of Tanagoro connections to the Nithians, given their obvious RW Egyptian connections. I know the HW gaz mentions a Tanagoro city in Nithia, but otherwise, their racial origins don't seem to have any Tanagoro connections, which- again- seems strange to me.
As you say, there is mention of Thonia's connection to AC1000's Known World. We also know that some people, like Prince Jaggar von Drachenfels, believe themselves to be descendants of Blackmoor. Clearly, there could be other connections.
There are a couple of problems with these connections. One is the destruction caused by the Great Rain of Fire and the time that passed since them. We know that the name "Blackmoor" is remembered, as is the Great Rain of Fire. Knowledge of the realm could have been passed down by elves and other long lived creatures, and it could have been obtained by wizards. Mystarans likely know their ancient history better than we do.
Another problem of connections is that the "classic" Blackmoor setting happens about 1000 years before the Great Rain of Fire. By the time Blackmoor reached the peak of its civilization, wouldn't the Afridhi, the Egg of Coot and the Temple of the Frog have long since been forgotten?
My theory is that once Blackmoor had gained world dominance, their culture had indeed developed into one unified culture and all that remained of the cultures Blackmoor had conquered would be things like cooking traditions, different holidays celebrated etc etc. I'm thinking something like the US today. "Yeah I'm Peshwa, but I don't think too much about that except when my family is gathered..." etc etc However, when disaster struck and the Blackmoor civilization ended, those people were rewerted back to barbarism. The way they survived was to reembrace the cultures of their ancestors. This trend could easily have been influenced by the Immortals, seeing it as a quick way to help their desperate followers.
If the Afridhi were not completely wiped out, some of them could have made it to what is now Ylaruam and laid out the foundation of the Nithian civilization.
Good point about the Tanagoro BTW. What african culture(s) are they supposed to represent? The Nithians should clearly have some African-inspired ancestors, though could easily have middle-eastern inspired ones (ie the Afridhi) as well...
IIRC official material is rather vague on this, but suggesting something about Neathar tribes?
Havard
BTW, the Afridhi are black skinned, right? Are they tanagoro? (answering your question, I guess the tanagoro should represent all M-Subsaharan cultures, except for the M-(Khoi-san speakers) Bushmen, the Kalimari; IIRC, Giampaolo said once that the Simbasta language was supposed to be M-Nilo-Sahararian languages; This leaves the Niger-Congo ("bantu") languages for the Tanagoro. Pehaps Afridhi language is the source of the Afro-Asiatic idioms?
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa ))BTW, the Afridhi are black skinned, right? Are they tanagoro? (answering your question, I guess the tanagoro should represent all M-Subsaharan cultures, except for the M-(Khoi-san speakers) Bushmen, the Kalimari; IIRC, Giampaolo said once that the Simbasta language was supposed to be M-Nilo-Sahararian languages; This leaves the Niger-Congo ("bantu") languages for the Tanagoro. Pehaps Afridhi language is the source of the Afro-Asiatic idioms?
Thanks for your input on the Tanogoro. The Afridhi have black skin, but not neccesarily other African traits. Their culture is closer to Persians or Afghans. The Afridhi could have had some Tanogoro ancestry, but IMO their ancestors could be just about anyone. Years of isolation and the influence of Zugzul is probably what made them into what they are. I wouldn't count out Fire elemental creatures to be honest.
As for the Nithian connection, I could easily see something there. Also, I noticed in the DA series that the Nithians discovered Thonia and brought back artifacts from that ruined nation...
Another interesting fact from the DA series is a reference that the place marked as Thonia on the Mentzer map is specifed as not being the original Thonia. Merely a place to which Thonians escaped after the Great Rain of Fire...
Havard
As for the Nithian connection, I could easily see something there. Also, I noticed in the DA series that the Nithians discovered Thonia and brought back artifacts from that ruined nation...
Is Nithia mentioned in the DA series? I would have sworn that the creation of Nithia post-dated the DA series of modules (at least DA1-3; not sure about the timing of DA4).
Prinz Jaggar von Drachenfels is said to own an artifact from Blackmoor (I think you may have mentioned this already, though). From the description, it almost sounds like a Firewand, except that it shoots the equivalent of Lightning Bolts rather than Fireballs (which is more in keeping with the laser gun nature, actually).
Is Nithia mentioned in the DA series? I would have sworn that the creation of Nithia post-dated the DA series of modules (at least DA1-3; not sure about the timing of DA4).
Prinz Jaggar von Drachenfels is said to own an artifact from Blackmoor (I think you may have mentioned this already, though). From the description, it almost sounds like a Firewand, except that it shoots the equivalent of Lightning Bolts rather than Fireballs (which is more in keeping with the laser gun nature, actually).
Weird, I can't find that Nithia reference now. Could I have dreamt it all up?
Yeah, Jaggar's laser gun is interesting, and the only "proof" we have that his claims of Blackmoor heritage may actually be true. Ofcourse, Jaggar is known to travel the Broken Lands. Could it be that he has stumbled upon the Comback Inn there?
Havard
... as the Ethengar Gazetteer's suggestion that those horsefolk were descendants of the Peshwa ...
Gaz12 never mentioned the Peshwa. The closest that you can come to that connection is that it stated that the pre-Ethengars were a primitive people peripheral to Blackmoor. They only domesticated the horse after settling on the steppes. Horse-warrior culture developed only after Akkila Khan came in, beginning first as failed head-on attacks and then finally the hit-and-run style that characterizes the Ethengars.
FWIW, I tend to support James Mishler's view of the utility of the Mystara-Blackmoor connection, particularly as understood to mean Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. Whatever future Gaz F products there might be, all things iconic to DA Blackmoor are considered zapped in the Great Rain of Fire - no Peshwah, no Afridhi, no Valeman, etc. Cousins within the Neathar/Oltec/Tanagoro families yes, but not those specific ethnic groups. The closest thing that got through was the frogfolk of Northern Wildlands and Ghyr, and even there the linkage is only a hypothetical plausibility.
Is Nithia mentioned in the DA series? I would have sworn that the creation of Nithia post-dated the DA series of modules (at least DA1-3; not sure about the timing of DA4).
DA1, in introducing the world of Blackmoor to a presumably unfamiliar audience, offered up a Conan-esque "Before the waters swallowed Atlantis" kind of litany. The Mentzer map was referenced slightly, so you got a mention of Netsun. That's probably what your rembering. Check that. I think there is a mention of Nithia in that litany.
I may be mistaken, but I believe the first instance of the word "Nithia" was in M5 Talons of Night in some of the dispersed back history of Thothia (BTW, does anybody really use the official "Tho-SHAY" over "Thoth-ee-ah"?") Rathanos and the Magian Fire Wizards also got their first mentions there.
Giampaolo and me were trying recently to track back the origin of some of the mystaran languages, like nithian, nimmurian and taymoran, and they all should have a common root, which could be related to blackmoor.
By HW, Nithian should be a mixing development of Oltec (post Oltec language breakup) and Neathar (post Neathar language breakup). Nimmurian (M-Babylonian Akkadian) was adopted from Enduk (M-Sumerian), which itself was a unique and isolated language creation by Ixion (RS/SC presentation). Outside of the fanonical work of Mishler, and derivative uses thereof, there is little or no hint as to culture, language, or ethnic identity of the Taymorans (or did PC3 add something that I am forgetting?).
It should, in fact, be impossible to common-root all three languages. Removing Nimmurian from the equation, Here are some possible connections and derivations for the other two (using pre- and post-migration patterns used with my gaz's)
Taymora: Assuming the thonian-survivor theory, Thonian was part of the Central-Eastern block of Neathar around the time of fragmentation. Blackmoorian or Classic Thonian (4000BC) is well developed language, but perhaps not entirely unintelligible to other Eastern Neathar (such as the early Bellisarians). Blacklore Thonian (3000BC) is the techno-jargon development just prior to the GRoF. pre-Taymorans would work off this language or something similiar. Taymoran would have a millenium of evolution before its speakers were destroyed.
Nithian: 1) proto-Nithians are part of the "Oltec Slave Trade" by which Oltecs were brought to Bellisaria and then into the Thonian Empire by the Lumbrai culture (Numidia-like relation to Thonia, my invention). Freed as part of the resolution of the 2nd Elven War (from the fanonical Blackmoor history). After GRoF pre-nithians went up the Isle of Dawn and down into the Nithia Valley of Ylaruam, interacting and mixing with Central Eastern Neathar (basic mediterranean feel), Central Western Neathar (called Durharians in others' work), or Northern Neathar (aka Maharians or some such).
Advantage: provides a good explanation of existence of IoD Alaysians (splintered off) and gave a travelling companion for contemporaneous Oltec/Neathar mix Ethengars.
Variant 1a: pre-Nithians entered the River Valley from the north not the south. That is, once on Brun, they traveled down the steppes (again with the Ethies) but kept going south around the mountains and glaciers to enter the NW of Ylaruam.
option 2: proto-Nithians are Oltec-Azcans who fled even further than the proto-Atruaghins and proto-Sindhi into the east, entering into the NW of Ylaruam, displacing pre-Traldar like groups (this part applies above, too). Early glyphs are thus Oltec in nature.
Advantage: minimal Neathar language influence, so it is inherently "alien" to the Neathar-predominant Known Worlders.
option 3: proto-Nithians, like proto-Urduks (in my backstory), were Blacklore era (racially mixed) groups involved with manning some of the Brun techno-facilities. While the Urduks went around the Black Mountains to get to their current home, the proto-Nithians try and dance across the glaciers into the Streel Plain and then into NW Ylaruam.
Advantage: Proto-Nithian IS Blacklore Thonian, making it a true sister to proto-Taymoran no matter how the Taymorans got there (assume they are thonian, though). As an added bonus, it gives a Stargate-in-reverse feel - the early heiroglyphs are the remnants of the techno-jargon ideogrammatic short-hand, just like our use of the smilies, bathroom and handicap accessible markers, etc.
In fact, with the RW-Egyptian model of multiply sub and super-ethnicities from the sourcewaters to the Delta, all of these options could be "correct".
-OldDawg
I may be mistaken, but I believe the first instance of the word "Nithia" was in M5 Talons of Night in some of the dispersed back history of Thothia
I'm pretty sure that Nithia was first mentioned in Gaz2, though it's possible it was referenced somewhere earlier than that. I do know that Gaz2 preceded M5 (as did Gaz3, which is where M5 got the names of many of the princes that appear in the rumors/research entries about Thothia.) They all came out at roughly the same time ('87, though at different times of the year), so doubtless there was some degree of cross-pollination going on.
(BTW, does anybody really use the official "Tho-SHAY" over "Thoth-ee-ah"?")
Does it really show Thothia as being pronounced that way?
I never noticed, but yeah- I certainly don't ever think of it that way at all.
Rathanos and the Magian Fire Wizards also got their first mentions there.
I think you may be right about Rathanos, but the Magians are first mentioned in Gaz2. IIRC, the only Immortals Gaz2 mentions are Al-Kalim, Thanatos, the Old Man of the Sea, Zephyr, the Gnoll, and Corona. Those last three have been the source of much debate.
Nimmurian (M-Babylonian Akkadian) was adopted from Enduk (M-Sumerian), which itself was a unique and isolated language creation by Ixion (RS/SC presentation).
[OT] - The interesting bit about the language connections with the above is how/if they might relate to Alphatian, if at all. The Alphatian symbol (from DotE) is a Lammasu, which is an Assyrian entity (and similar to the Shedu, of Babylonian mythology, which is the ruler of the Enduk). There are a few words/names of Alphatian origins that seem very Assyrian/Babylonian (Halzunthram seems a similar construction to Zarathustra, and there are a few others that I don't recall offhand sadly). Other Alphatian names seem more Grecian (Eriadna/Ariadne), and many just seem "generically" fantastic.
Just something I've been musing on lately.
In any case, I've personally given up on trying to tie RW linguistic origins to Mystaran linguistic origins/migrations as it doesn't seem to work out very cleanly at all, but I do enjoy reading other people's work on doing the same.
FWIW, I tend to support James Mishler's view of the utility of the Mystara-Blackmoor connection, particularly as understood to mean Dave Arneson's Blackmoor. Whatever future Gaz F products there might be, all things iconic to DA Blackmoor are considered zapped in the Great Rain of Fire - no Peshwah, no Afridhi, no Valeman, etc. Cousins within the Neathar/Oltec/Tanagoro families yes, but not those specific ethnic groups. The closest thing that got through was the frogfolk of Northern Wildlands and Ghyr, and even there the linkage is only a hypothetical plausibility.
I guess having orcs and half-orcs back at blackmoor is really problematic and it's hard to have a definitive answer about where blackmoor should had been, but otherwise I don't see blackmoor-mystara ties as problematic. In fact, I guess AC 1000 Mystara have much more consistence problems per se than the blackmoor-mystara connections. just my opinion, of course
By HW, Nithian should be a mixing development of Oltec (post Oltec language breakup) and Neathar (post Neathar language breakup).
Yes, and, in fact, that's why me and Giampaolo were talking about this subject in the first place (we are trying to catalogue the whole oltec history, including some of the fan oltec civilisations). The problem is that egyptian is a Afro-Asiatic language, and is related with the semitic languages, including phoenician and babylonian, and would be had to be related with a amerindian idiom, like nahuatl.
Nimmurian (M-Babylonian Akkadian) was adopted from Enduk (M-Sumerian), which itself was a unique and isolated language creation by Ixion (RS/SC presentation).
...
It should, in fact, be impossible to common-root all three languages.
I guess this language could have been created basen on another already existent idiom, such as our M-Proto-Afro-Asiatic, that could come from thonia/blackmoor.
Taymora: Assuming the thonian-survivor theory, Thonian was part of the Central-Eastern block of Neathar around the time of fragmentation. Blackmoorian or Classic Thonian (4000BC) is well developed language, but perhaps not entirely unintelligible to other Eastern Neathar (such as the early Bellisarians). Blacklore Thonian (3000BC) is the techno-jargon development just prior to the GRoF. pre-Taymorans would work off this language or something similiar. Taymoran would have a millenium of evolution before its speakers were destroyed.
I guess this one seens to be the most likely option, if nithian (egyptian) could be a derivation from taymoran (that I'm assuming to be M-phoenician).
[Nithian: 1) proto-Nithians are part of the "Oltec Slave Trade" by which Oltecs were brought to Bellisaria and then into the Thonian Empire by the Lumbrai culture (Numidia-like relation to Thonia, my invention). Freed as part of the resolution of the 2nd Elven War (from the fanonical Blackmoor history). After GRoF pre-nithians went up the Isle of Dawn and down into the Nithia Valley of Ylaruam, interacting and mixing with Central Eastern Neathar (basic mediterranean feel), Central Western Neathar (called Durharians in others' work), or Northern Neathar (aka Maharians or some such).
Advantage: provides a good explanation of existence of IoD Alaysians (splintered off) and gave a travelling companion for contemporaneous Oltec/Neathar mix Ethengars.
Variant 1a: pre-Nithians entered the River Valley from the north not the south. That is, once on Brun, they traveled down the steppes (again with the Ethies) but kept going south around the mountains and glaciers to enter the NW of Ylaruam.
Another interesting option if we want to tie the ethengarian origins with nithia
[[option 2: proto-Nithians are Oltec-Azcans who fled even further than the proto-Atruaghins and proto-Sindhi into the east, entering into the NW of Ylaruam, displacing pre-Traldar like groups (this part applies above, too). Early glyphs are thus Oltec in nature.
Advantage: minimal Neathar language influence, so it is inherently "alien" to the Neathar-predominant Known Worlders.
The problem is, again, tie M-egyptian with M-nahuatl. The glyphs, however, could indeed have something to do with the oltec culture, just like the earlier neathar step pyramids, that later evolved to "normal" pyramids.
option 3: proto-Nithians, like proto-Urduks (in my backstory), were Blacklore era (racially mixed) groups involved with manning some of the Brun techno-facilities. While the Urduks went around the Black Mountains to get to their current home, the proto-Nithians try and dance across the glaciers into the Streel Plain and then into NW Ylaruam.
Advantage: Proto-Nithian IS Blacklore Thonian, making it a true sister to proto-Taymoran no matter how the Taymorans got there (assume they are thonian, though). As an added bonus, it gives a Stargate-in-reverse feel - the early heiroglyphs are the remnants of the techno-jargon ideogrammatic short-hand, just like our use of the smilies, bathroom and handicap accessible markers, etc.
Hehe, this idea is actually very nice :D
[OT] - The interesting bit about the language connections with the above is how/if they might relate to Alphatian, if at all. The Alphatian symbol (from DotE) is a Lammasu, which is an Assyrian entity (and similar to the Shedu, of Babylonian mythology, which is the ruler of the Enduk). There are a few words/names of Alphatian origins that seem very Assyrian/Babylonian (Halzunthram seems a similar construction to Zarathustra, and there are a few others that I don't recall offhand sadly). Other Alphatian names seem more Grecian (Eriadna/Ariadne), and many just seem "generically" fantastic.
Alphatia, BTW, soulds very greek too. Pehaps a milenian influence here, like Minaea?
And pehaps Ixion have something to do with the alphatian lammasu?
In any case, I've personally given up on trying to tie RW linguistic origins to Mystaran linguistic origins/migrations as it doesn't seem to work out very cleanly at all, but I do enjoy reading other people's work on doing the same.
Hehe, this one is indeed a nightmare. But it's kinda fun to solve (or, at least, try to) this puzzle ;)
Alphatia, BTW, soulds very greek too. Pehaps a milenian influence here, like Minaea?
And pehaps Ixion have something to do with the alphatian lammasu?
That could work, though I'd probably have it the other way around (Alphatian influence on Minaea, as the Alphatians are the older civilization). There are obviously Greek connections with module M1 (which is basically the Odyssey), and your suggestion of Ixion would seem to fit with the Alphatian fire worship (who more appropriate to be the subject of that worship than Ixion?)
It could also help to tie together the reason behind the Alphatians selecting Mystara as their retreat, possibly.
That could work, though I'd probably have it the other way around (Alphatian influence on Minaea, as the Alphatians are the older civilization). There are obviously Greek connections with module M1 (which is basically the Odyssey)
The problem is that Minaea isn't the only greek inspired region of Mystara. Pehaps those greek-alphatian common elements came after the landfall, absorving milenian colonies at Alphatia mainland?
and your suggestion of Ixion would seem to fit with the Alphatian fire worship (who more appropriate to be the subject of that worship than Ixion?)
True, but OTOH, would the air followers of Sundsvall keep a fire worshipper's symbol as their main symbol?
It could also help to tie together the reason behind the Alphatians selecting Mystara as their retreat, possibly.
I guess this could indeed be a reason for that.
BTW, the alphatian humans are true aliens? Or the "Homosapiens alphatianus" (hehe :D ) had mystaran roots and, somehow, they ended at there? If the first is true, they could also be draw to Mystara due to the uncanny similarities of both species; if not, they would be simply returning back to "home"
I guess having orcs and half-orcs back at blackmoor is really problematic
M-Blackmoor and DA-Blackmoor are, ultimately, different worlds with a few points in parallel but different pasts and vastly different futures.
The problem is that egyptian is a Afro-Asiatic language, and is related with the semitic languages, including phoenician and babylonian, and would be had to be related with a amerindian idiom, like nahuatl.
Here is the crux of the problem: when we say that Thyatian is M-Latin, or Heldannic is M-Icelandic, do we necessarily imply that the history of the Mystaran language and its speakers have correspondence to the RW language and speakers in each and every aspect? Or are we saying that the correspondences is limited only to "flavor" elements?
I think most of us fall between these two extremes. Analogies between what happened in the RW and Mystara are useful, and they can give us some interesting tangents to run with, but they are not mandatory. The question shouldn't be "is Eqyptian related to Nahuatl?", but "Is Nithian related to Azcan?" If your theory of how the Nithians came to be works perfectly except for the pesky fact that Egyptian and Nahuatl are utterly unreleated, then you have a perfectly good Mystaran theory and I'd like to hear it. :D
If, on the other hand, you use the tentative assumption that because Egyptian, Akkadian, and the Elomite tongue are all Afro-Semitic and therefore Nithian, Nimmurian, and Herathian must be thrown together - well that is a not-as-good theory.
-OldDawg
M-Blackmoor and DA-Blackmoor are, ultimately, different worlds with a few points in parallel but different pasts and vastly different futures.
Yes. For purists like myself, who want to use ZGG/DA Blackmoor material with Mystara, just replace Orcs and Half-Orcs with Beastmen and Half-Beastmen.
For maps and things like that though, one of the reasons I made the recent regional map of Blackmoor (and a previous one without the WL) was that I really wanted to make use of Dave Arneson's maps with the Mystara setting. Seems like a bad idea to throw away an excellent resource like that
Wilhelm:
Alphatia, BTW, soulds very greek too. Pehaps a milenian influence here, like Minaea?
And pehaps Ixion have something to do with the alphatian lammasu?
Ofcourse, I have a theory that Alphatia was founded by Blackmoorian mages some time before the GRoF. Possiby even technology hating mages. A few milennia later, they have forgotten their origins, blow up their home world and return....
I don't get the Ixion Lammasu connection? If using the BM connection (yeah I like those), the original fire worshipper patron could be Zugzul...
Havard
I don't get the Ixion Lammasu connection? If using the BM connection (yeah I like those), the original fire worshipper patron could be Zugzul...
It's a tentative correlation. Ixion is the primary sponsor of the Enduk, whose spiritual leader is a Shedu. The Shedu and the Lammasu (a similar creature) both originate in Assyrian mythology, among other similarly Assyrian related connections between the Enduk and Alphatians.
Although you raise an interesting point. What if, while the Shedu is a creation/servant of Ixion, the Lammasu is a creation/servant of some Immortal of Air, someone similarly tied with the common "Assyrian" elements of both cultures?
I think most of us fall between these two extremes. Analogies between what happened in the RW and Mystara are useful, and they can give us some interesting tangents to run with, but they are not mandatory. The question shouldn't be "is Eqyptian related to Nahuatl?", but "Is Nithian related to Azcan?" If your theory of how the Nithians came to be works perfectly except for the pesky fact that Egyptian and Nahuatl are utterly unreleated, then you have a perfectly good Mystaran theory and I'd like to hear it. :D
If, on the other hand, you use the tentative assumption that because Egyptian, Akkadian, and the Elomite tongue are all Afro-Semitic and therefore Nithian, Nimmurian, and Herathian must be thrown together - well that is a not-as-good theory.
And I agree with most of you said, but sometimes realism can add something nice to the campaign world (or, at least, the lack of it can be problematic). One example is that verdan is our M-Portuguese and the verdan places have all portuguese names, and I wanted to run a SC campaign; the players, just as I, were all portuguese speakers. And we have Vanya's verdan name, that is Fanha (just the "verdinased" version of the espa name, Faña). However, in portuguese we do have the word "fanho/fanha", which means a person with a very nasal voice (and the related word "fanhoso/fanhosa", that means someone that temporarely have a nasal voice for some reason, possibly becouse got cold). Anyway, I couldn't use her canon name because it would sound too comical for a serious campaign, and I changed it to Vania during this campaign...
That's just an example that sometimes this little details do matter, even if a little bit untelated with the subject proper (and a little pun that I wanted to shared with you guys ;) ). Other thing that always sound very strange for we, portuguese speakers, and I guess mainly for our many italian speakers friends of the MML/MMB, is the "germanic" dialect of thyatian, or Cimarron speaking Slag but having all the native names in english. okay, I guess no one here speaks nahuatl or old egyptian (well, if anyone do speak, please let me know, it would be very handy! :D ), but a little bit of realism wouldn't kill as well. That's just my opinion, of course, since it's a fictional world and things can be different from the RW, of course.
And I guess it wouldn't be difficult for Nithia have a afro-asiatic language, anyway: Taymora could be the answer if we had mostly a predominant oltec origin for Nithia. (BTW, Taymoran could also be the origin of herathian, through commerce; the herathi araneas mimics humans and taymoran culture could had been the very first one. This also helps to tie the Malpheggi and the Shazak lizardmen: the taymorans sold them to the araneas for experiments and slave work).
Although you raise an interesting point. What if, while the Shedu is a creation/servant of Ixion, the Lammasu is a creation/servant of some Immortal of Air, someone similarly tied with the common "Assyrian" elements of both cultures?
The Lammasu is a flying creatue, I guess it would indeed be easier to tie it with the Air element. And, pehaps, the lammasu came before the nimmurian Shedu? Pehaps this individual, named Shedu, were the lammasu champion of Ixion and the immortal presented him with his own realm and created the enduks for him?
Although you raise an interesting point. What if, while the Shedu is a creation/servant of Ixion,
He created the centaurs (according to myth), so it wouldn't be out of character for him to make chimerical creatures of that nature.
The Lammasu is a flying creatue, I guess it would indeed be easier to tie it with the Air element. And, pehaps, the lammasu came before the nimmurian Shedu? Pehaps this individual, named Shedu, were the lammasu champion of Ixion and the immortal presented him with his own realm and created the enduks for him?
Two different creatures, actually, though tied by common RW mythological origins (Assyrian, or, I guess technically, Akkadian. Mesopotamian myth, we'll call it). The Shedu of the Enduks is named Gildesh, who was a follower of Ixion, and the Enduks were created in homage to Gildesh (except in reverse- winged men with bull faces, rather than winged bulls with man faces).
The Lammasu is a similar creature, but is a winged lion with a man's head. Close scrutiny of the figure in the Alphatian book from DotE shows that the creature there has lion's claws, and is a Lammasu.
So they could still be tied together somehow, though, or perhaps be ideological counterparts, not unlike the schools of Air and Fire? (The lammasu of ??? could represent Air, and the shedu of Ixion would represent fire)
That could put our friends the Alphatians and Enduks at odds if they ever encounter one another.
The Shedu of the Enduks is named Gildesh, who was a follower of Ixion, and the Enduks were created in homage to Gildesh (except in reverse- winged men with bull faces, rather than winged bulls with man faces).
Yes, I forgot his name, thanks
The Lammasu is a similar creature, but is a winged lion with a man's head. Close scrutiny of the figure in the Alphatian book from DotE shows that the creature there has lion's claws, and is a Lammasu.
Hm, I always thought that the lammasu had the body of a bull, just like the shedu (hm, or, at least, I guess that one ad&d lammasu picture was just like that). However, this theory seens to be more logical... Hm, pehaps the manticore is a corrupted lammasu, or something similar?
So they could still be tied together somehow, though, or perhaps be ideological counterparts, not unlike the schools of Air and Fire? (The lammasu of ??? could represent Air, and the shedu of Ixion would represent fire)
I guess this could be possible, although I don't remember the Shedu having any fire powers (I could be wrong, of course).
BTW, I just read that Gildesh should, actually, be Ixion's avatar than simply one of his champions.
http://pandius.com/g_shedu.html
BTW, I just read that Gildesh should, actually, be Ixion's avatar than simply one of his champions.
That's some sort of strange change that crept in with the Red Steel set. As originally presented (Dragon #200), Gildesh was a unique creature (a Shedu) who was a herald of Idu (Ixion). When Gildesh "...rendered a great service to his patron... [A]s a reward, Idu... created a race of followers with some of Gildesh's features, which he could rule in Idu's name."
Gildesh was later murdered by Minoides, though he "...wasn't truly killed, but merely banished to an outer plane as the result of his mortal body's death. Idu asked him to give his followers time [to] learn on their own the lessons of life on Mystara. Gildesh agreed and it was then decided he could return to Nimmur, but only every third century."
The article later comments that "Gildesh was the monster ruler of a race of magical creatures, the shedus, on another plane. He has grown beyond this role to become the personal servant of Ixion."
So, yeah- I'm not certain why/how that bit about the Greater Shedu crept into the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium, but I figure it must somehow either be a mistake, or perhaps the Greater Shedu there is supposed to be a different Greater Shedu than Gildesh? I don't know.
However, now that I've dug out that article and noticed the bit about the "other planar shedus", I'm inclined to think that perhaps the notion of the shedus and lammasus being otherplanar creatures and in opposition (fire vs. air) might have some merit. As otherplanar creatures, they could certainly be known to both the Nimmurians and the Alphatians at the same time, despite the two cultures not knowing about one another.
That's some sort of strange change that crept in with the Red Steel set. As originally presented (Dragon #200), Gildesh was a unique creature (a Shedu) who was a herald of Idu (Ixion). When Gildesh "...rendered a great service to his patron... [A]s a reward, Idu... created a race of followers with some of Gildesh's features, which he could rule in Idu's name."
Gildesh was later murdered by Minoides, though he "...wasn't truly killed, but merely banished to an outer plane as the result of his mortal body's death. Idu asked him to give his followers time [to] learn on their own the lessons of life on Mystara. Gildesh agreed and it was then decided he could return to Nimmur, but only every third century."
The article later comments that "Gildesh was the monster ruler of a race of magical creatures, the shedus, on another plane. He has grown beyond this role to become the personal servant of Ixion."
Yes, I also remembered this info about the shedu, not the avatar one.
So, yeah- I'm not certain why/how that bit about the Greater Shedu crept into the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium, but I figure it must somehow either be a mistake, or perhaps the Greater Shedu there is supposed to be a different Greater Shedu than Gildesh? I don't know.
Yes, it`s more likely that it`s not Gildesh, and that`s how Ixion manifested himself when he wanted to personally visit Nimmur and Eshu. Or, pehaps, now Gildesh is a Immortal himself and his recent visits were made via avatars?
However, now that I've dug out that article and noticed the bit about the "other planar shedus", I'm inclined to think that perhaps the notion of the shedus and lammasus being otherplanar creatures and in opposition (fire vs. air) might have some merit. As otherplanar creatures, they could certainly be known to both the Nimmurians and the Alphatians at the same time, despite the two cultures not knowing about one another.
Yes, that`s true. In fact, it`s even possible that the whole nimmurian civilisatios was actually based on a previous alphatian civilization, including their language (pehaps a language actally related to the isolated RW sumerian language?)