I am in the planning stages of my Ravenloft campaign. I intend to run EtCR as part of a larger campaign.
One of my players is building and a cleric with Radiant Servant of Pelor in its build. He is the sort that will find every possible way to make sure his character can turn and destroy nearly every undead in the game. Aside from trimming the undead in the campaign, which seems obvious, how do I ensure this sort of cleric doesn't run willy-nilly over any undead that I do throw at him?
Second of all, you may want to pick up the Ravenloft campaign setting book (from White Wolf/Sword and Sorcery) and review the rules for fear and horror checks. A swarming horde of zombies can pretty much make damn near anyone break and run given the right circumstances.
Third, mix it up a bit. One of the big ideas of the old Ravenloft campaign setting was that "No two monsters are really alike." Use that to your advantage in dealing with powerful characters, by tweaking existing undead disadvantages or powers.
Fourth, turning is a useful but limited resource. The average cleric can turn four or five times per day. A powerful one can turn seven or eight times per day. Use the horror setting to your advantage to run the PCs through a large number of fairly weak encounters with undead to convince the cleric to blow through turning, then after he's used it up, have a more powerful undead gank them. This isn't even metagaming; it's just good tactics. Intelligent undead know about turning and should be willing to expend their minions' existences to deplete enemy priests of that ability.
Fifth, most clerics are about as obvious as a porn star's breast implants, doubly so for sun clerics. When you see a guy in armor, wielding simple weapons, wearing a big symbol that looks like a sunburst on his clothes/armor/shield, you tend to think, "Hey, that guy can probably turn undead!" Undead opponents will therefore use their powers preferentially on clerics to bring them down before the cleric can disintegrate them. A disguised cleric is a different matter, but that's up to your player to A) figure out, B) implement successfully, and C) keep it up while casting spells or turning.
Finally, remember that turning has its limits. It has a range of about 60 feet, so spellcasting undead can bombard priests safely from that distance while minion creatures keep him occupied. It affects closest and weakest enemies first, so an undead master surrounding himself with dozens of weak zombies and skeletons creates an effective "buffer zone" for a round or two - which is, hopefully, all he'll need to neutralize that pesky priest. You have to have your holy symbol in one hand to do it (something a lot of people forget), so a cleric with a weapon and shield has to have their holy symbol emblazoned on the shield to turn; a cleric with a two-handed weapon has to relinquish his hold on the weapon with one hand while turning. Again, an obvious sign and one that renders the cleric vulnerable. Sundering or shattering a holy symbol can be a big deal, especially if no one's around to replace it (and you can't just whip one together, there's a reason they cost money).
Hope that helps you out. Good luck with your campaign!
Jeremy Puckett (Hida Jiremi)
Low-level spell and there is bound to be some undead spellcaster (apart from Strahd) out there.
You would be amazed how many cleric PC forget to pack more than one holy symbol. One you shatter the one they have, watch the horrified look on their face as the undead mob swarm them.
And if your players whine that you're being unfair about this, blame it on Strahd: he's a genius, and he's had generations to come up with ways to discourage trespassers from casually waving those dratted holy symbols around.
I have the 2nd and 3rd edition Ravenloft books. Nearly all of them. Its always been my favorite setting.
Regarding turning being unable to destroy undead, how would you adjudicate the Sun domain's greater turning ability (which the Radiant servant gets oodles of uses of).
Also, I want to keep the effects Ravenloft has on things the players take for granted as a secret (spells, turning, fear, curses, etc). However, when it comes to this particular player, should I warn him of the nerf on an ability he is going to be counting on. I know he is counting on the greater turning ability to take care of most undead in the campaign. He is specing his character to be a healing battery (which he will use offensively against undead) and turning specialist.
I don't like the turning mechanic in 3.0/3.5 anyway, and much prefer the EtCR lightbringer turning as a simpler, more flavorful alternative that takes less table time to work on and can be easily adjusted for ecounters. For instance, I just just say greater turning does a 1d8 per cleric level instead of a d6
-- step OOC for a minute and inform the players of the game-mechanical details. That way, they're less likely to believe you're being arbitrary or unfair to them, because they'll still know enough about their PCs' odds of success (even if those odds are stacked against them) to make effective choices as they play.Do encourage the players to continue role-playing their PCs' confusion about what's weakening or obstructing their powers, as the characters won't be aware of the mechanics of their new restrictions. Again, if they need somebody to blame for their altered abilities in-character, pin it on Strahd and the weird artifacts and power-fanes he's linked to in EtCR. When it's appropriate, back this up with descriptions, e.g.: "You muster the sun's blessed power within yourself, ready to banish the undead abominations... but wait. No! Something's wrong! You don't feel the same warmth which usually accompanies the Rite of Turning, and the sacred energies you summon seem weaker, as if some dark force is draining them away...."
However, when a player has built a character around a certain concept and that concept is going to not be nearly as effective in Ravenloft, should I, as a DM, inform the player that his planned character will not function as he hopes it will?
1. He figures out another way to use his character's abilities so they still provide some benefit to the group.
2. He whines until he kills this character and create another one, often with a much simpler build (like, I'm gonna smash everything!!!)
As for the healing and turning, I would have an intelligent undead caster use illusions to make some of his wights (or whatever)look human and some of his less than undead minions look like ghouls (or whatever). Let the cleric try and figure out which is which.
As for the turning, two words:
Death knight.
However, when a player has built a character around a certain concept and that concept is going to not be nearly as effective in Ravenloft, should I, as a DM, inform the player that his planned character will not function as he hopes it will?
First, take a second look at the character sheet, to see if it's not as serious a problem as you think. Some things he may have buffed up (like casting Cure-spells to damage undead) do work fine and dandy in Ravenloft.
Second, point out to the player that not everything he'll need to cope with will be undead, and that his PC does have other responsibilities to fulfill within the adventuring party. Rather than stating outright that such-and-such a power isn't going to work, encourage him to re-focus his PC's build so that it compensates for weaknesses of the party as a whole, and suggest which undead-smashing perks he might want to forfeit in exchange. If there really are oversights in the party's arsenal that leave them vulnerable (e.g. not enough Dispeling-capacity to counter Strahd's spells), then nudging the player to cover for these weak spots will be appreciated for its own sake, not just because he won't squander feats and so forth on abilities that'll be hampered by the game-setting.
If the player knows that the turning does work every so often, he'll be more philosophical about it when the turning doesn't work.
I'd save the Shattering of Holy Symbols idea for the climactic battle. Most players are smart enough to learn from their mistakes. After you smash their holy symbol once or twice, they'll start packing spares. On the other hand, if it comes as a complete surprise, then the look of horror on their faces will be quite genuine. ("What do you mean he sundered my holy symbol?" "Why is the vampire smiling?" "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T TURN UNDEAD!?!?!?")
Regarding turning being unable to destroy undead, how would you adjudicate the Sun domain's greater turning ability (which the Radiant servant gets oodles of uses of).
Turning can destroy undead in Ravenloft, just not as well. Although it isn't explicitly spelled out in the books, the Sun ability works just like getting a destruction result from a normal turning check: the undead is destroyed if it can't flee on its next turn.
All undead Darklords add a bonus on their Turn Resistance equal to +1 or their Wisdom Modifier (if positive), whichever is greater.
In other worlds, if a cleric or paladin has twice as many levels as the undead have hit dice, she would normally destroy any undead she would ordinarily turn. In Ravenloft turned undead are destroyed only if prevented from fleeing the source of the turning by the best and fastest mean available to them in their next action. Example: a 9th level cleric successfully turns a 4-HD wight. On it's next ation, the turned wight must use a double move to flee as far as it can from the cleric. If the wight is unable to flee from the cleric-wether magically bound, hemmed by other foes or simply cornered-it is destroyed
Yes clerics even in Ravenloft can destro undead, it's just a lot harder and trickier.
Best advice I can give is to apply sinkholes of evil, turning rules and desecrate spells to full effect. Trust me even a a +2 turn resistance can be a nightmare when properly used.
To run a good game, make sure the player gets a chance to shine. You should'nt punish him for wanting to play a radiant servant of Pelor but you should make it clear to him that undead are much more powerful in Ravenloft. He should, and will fell terror and unease at the sight of an undead horde.
At the same time, he should be better then regular clerics at dealing with undead. More so in Ravenloft, it should be clear to witnesses that he is a symbol of the Holiest of Lights and of a just gods benevolence.
I don't know your player but if he's any good as role-player, this might make it a great opportunity to create side adventures involving the church of the Morning Lord, Belenus, etc.
My advice, fight dirty, maximize the power of your undead, and never forget the power of illusion spells, desecrations, and misdirection...
How would you handle Greater Turning?
It seems unfair, to me, to treat it as regular turning works in Ravenloft.
I was toying with the idea letting the Greater Turning work like regular Turn Undead (no need to be cornered for destruction) and let turn undead work as per Ravenloft campaign rules.
What do you all think?
I appreciate all the advice. Here is another question.
How would you handle Greater Turning?
It seems unfair, to me, to treat it as regular turning works in Ravenloft.
I was toying with the idea letting the Greater Turning work like regular Turn Undead (no need to be cornered for destruction) and let turn undead work as per Ravenloft campaign rules.
What do you all think?
Great thread.
I have a question or two, though. Does the player who created this anti-Strahd weapon of undead destruction know the nature of the campaign he's about to be playing in? Did he metagame and apply player knowledge to his character concept? Was his character choice influenced or even set by the fact that he knew he was going to be knees-deep in crawling hands?
If this is the case, and the player gleefully customized himself a min/maxed response to the campaign you told him you were going to run, then take no guilt from nerfing him, embarrassing him, debasing his character's faith, and ultimately destroying him because of his reliance on his now-weakened deity's favors. Make it fair, and follow the rules as presented, but have no mercy. He attempted to take advantage of your generosity; smash him for his presumption.
I also STRONGLY recommend the Taint rules from Heroes of Horror. If this player is a min/maxer, chances are good that he's going to use the cleric, not as a good cleric, but as an anti-undead nuke. Even a militant priest will grow weary of being spattered with chunks of zombie ichor after a while; the ravages of war and the never-ending stream of evil with which he will be faced WILL, over time, wear him down (and earn him taint). When his bloodlust peaks, and his holy mace is starting to wear a number of dings and scratches from the sheer bulk of undead skulls it's smashed in, how bewildered is he going to be when his turning attempt takes COMMAND of his hated enemies instead? How will he respond? Will he simply will them to stand still so he can smash them (for no XP), or will he turn them against their makers? Having a turning go awry might be a sign from your deity that you're slipping to the Dark Side, but if you take that sign and utilize it yourself, that's a conscious choice - and more taint.
In fact, paging through EtCR, there isn't THAT much undead in it. Sure, there are more than say, Red Hand of Doom, but its still not tons. They did a really nice job of looking for creepy monsters like the Caller in Darkness (love that one).
Here is a question for the posters...can anyone give a solid list of 3.5 monsters that would work great in a Ravenloft campaign?
They will be based in Barovia from levels 3-11 and then in an urban based island of terror (haven't figured out exactly what yet. Maybe Hollowfaust from Sword and Sorcery) from 11-13 and then in Har'Akir from 13-whenever.
A list of monsters to use would go a long way in helping to allow the player to play his character but not having to worry excessively over it as a DM.
Thanks!
...Here is a question for the posters...can anyone give a solid list of 3.5 monsters that would work great in a Ravenloft campaign?
They will be based in Barovia from levels 3-11 and then in an urban based island of terror (haven't figured out exactly what yet. Maybe Hollowfaust from Sword and Sorcery) from 11-13 and then in Har'Akir from 13-whenever.Thanks!
I like the way your mind is working on this. You're going to run a great campaign.
When looking for monsters of various types, I recommend taking a trip over to Crystalkeep (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php). There you will find the greatest simplified indexing of monsters, complete with book reference and page numbers. I haven't found anything even as good, much less better than, what's there.
It does not include the creatures from Denizens of Darkness, the Ravenloft MM supplement printed by S&S, so you might consider taking a quick spin through that supplement on your own to see what works. In the short term, though, look at Crystalkeep. Those guys do a great job over there.
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1
Search for Teeny Tiny Tales of Terror. John Mangrum, one of the Ravenloft authors, is soliciting scary blurbs to go with his personal list of Ravenloft monsters, culled from multiple sources. While the blurbs are the goal of those threads, the list itself is useful too.
Note: there are two versions of the book Thig recommends. Denizens of Darkness is 3.0. Denizens of Dread is the same book updated (poorly) to 3.5 with a few more monsters. For a good list of ravenloft appropriate monsters, take a look here:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1
Search for Teeny Tiny Tales of Terror. John Mangrum, one of the Ravenloft authors, is soliciting scary blurbs to go with his personal list of Ravenloft monsters, culled from multiple sources. While the blurbs are the goal of those threads, the list itself is useful too.
I don't know why, but I've never really gotten into the Fraternity site. I've perused it, and it's good, but I guess I really want the Kargatane site back. Or something. I don't know what I find lacking about it, but I just can't get settled in over there. Either way, anywhere there's a solicitation for short fiction, I should really get over there and get in it.