In the multiweapon fighting feat it says that only one limb is considered primary, and all others are considered offhand. In two-weapon fighting you take increased penalties if you don't use a light weapon in the offhand. The gythka, as a double weapon, is not light, but the "offhand" side is considered light. However, in the case of a four-armed TK, doesn't that mean one of his offhands is still holding a medium weapon? Or do you just sort of ignore that and only apply the -2/-2 penalties for all four attacks? Or would you get the increased penalties for having a non-light weapon in an offhand (in which you'd probably be better off using one gythka and a pair of light weapons, or maybe a specially-created small-size gythka for your second set of arms).
PigLick
As for your other idea, there's a -2 to-hit penalty if you use a weapon that's incorrectly sized for you, and using a smaller weapon also reduces the weapon's "type" by one category, so a small gythka would work like a one-handed weapon for a thri-kreen. You can, technically, wield a one-handed weapon in two hands, but from a rules standpoint the double-weapon aspect would still mean that one of the ends is one-handed while the other is light; there's no rules that modify a double weapon's rules based on its size relative to that of the wielder.
This is the reason why I tend to have my thri-kreen (NPCs, but even PCs if I were to play one) use a single gythka plus light weapons or, more likely, their claws as secondary weapons. I also normally have them enter combat with chatkcha in their other hands - that way they can get a couple ranged attacks in prior to wading into melee combat.
This is the reason why I tend to have my thri-kreen (NPCs, but even PCs if I were to play one) use a single gythka plus light weapons or, more likely, their claws as secondary weapons.
Well, by my reading, if they use a weapon in one hand they can then only make one secondary claw or bite attack - they can't just use their claws as "offhand weapons" anymore. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that seems to be how it reads. Altohugh I suppose that passage may not apply to using multiweapon, so perhaps that makes the difference.
Also, if you just use all claws, you get the full STR bonus to each, right? But if you use multiweapon, even if your claws are your "offhand" weapons, you only get 1/2 STR?
I'm trying to decide if I want to make my Thri-Kreen Psychic Warrior focus on just using his natural weapons, or if I want to use manufactured weapons of some sort, and I just want to make sure I have everything straight.
PigLick
Ah, youre right about the small gythka, forgot about those penalties. Two light weapons would be the way to go, then.
Well, by my reading, if they use a weapon in one hand they can then only make one secondary claw or bite attack - they can't just use their claws as "offhand weapons" anymore. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that seems to be how it reads. Altohugh I suppose that passage may not apply to using multiweapon, so perhaps that makes the difference.
Also, if you just use all claws, you get the full STR bonus to each, right? But if you use multiweapon, even if your claws are your "offhand" weapons, you only get 1/2 STR?
When combining multiple natural attacks with multiweapon fighting things get kludgey - they don't abide by either the normal "multiple weapons" rules nor the natural attack rules, but sorta fall in between. Using the Xill from the MM and thri-kreen from the EPH as references, here's how it works:
1) Without any weapons or feats, a creature's primary attack form (claws for a thri-kreen) are at full to-hit and Str bonus, while their secondary (bite for thri-kreen) is at -5 to-hit and 1/2 Str. In both cases, however, they only get a single attack each regardless of their BAB.
2) Without any feats but with a single weapon (one- or two-handed, doesn't matter), the weapon attacks at their full Str and to-hit (including multiple attacks, if their BAB is high enough), while every remaining natural weapon attacks at BAB -5 and 1/2 Str.
3) With the multiattack feat, all secondary natural weapon to-hit penalties drop to -2 rather than -5, regardless of how many there are or whether or not a weapon is being used. The weapon still attacks at full to-hit and possibly with multiple attacks.
4) With multiweapon fighting, any number of claws may be replaced with weapon attacks, as appropriate, with all but one hand counting as secondary weapons for the purposes of determining to-hit modifiers to all weapon attacks, how many attacks they get (1 each unless you have improved multiweapon fighting), and these secondary weapons are also only getting 1/2 Str to damage. The to-hit penalty for all weapon attacks is -2 if *all* of the secondary weapons are light weapons, and -4 if *any* are one- or two-handed weapons. By the multiweapon fighting rules only the "primary hand" - *not* "primary weapon" - is used to determine these penalties, so technically speaking if you had a two-handed weapon then all attacks would be at -4 to-hit (since, technically speaking again, one of the secondary hands is holding the two-handed weapon which is, by definition, not a light weapon). If the primary weapon is a dual weapon then it follows those rules, counting as a one-handed plus light weapon, and so the penalties to-hit are only -2 (assuming any/every other secondary weapon is light).
Any remaining natural attacks can make one attack roll each, with either a -2 or -5 penalty to-hit (depending on whether or not you have multiattack) and 1/2 Str to damage. In this case it's literally a matter of "what's left" - if *any* weapons are used all natural attacks become secondary natural attacks, and so follow those rules.
Now that we've got that covered, here's a couple ways you can optimize your attack options:
- Take the multiattack feat and use a single two-handed weapon. This gives you weapon attacks at your full BAB/number of attacks and Str * 1.5 damage bonus, and 2 claws and a bite at -2 to hit. You could even use a bow or other two-handed ranged weapon if you wanted.
- Go with multiweapon fighting, a single one-handed weapon and 3 light weapons. You'd then get all your weapon attacks at -2 to-hit to each, and a bite attack at -5. The primary weapon would also get multiple attacks if your BAB was high enough. You could even go with 4 one-handed ranged weapons if you wanted, including sneaky tricks like taking the Quick Draw feat so you can throw ranged weapons with your primary hand using your full BAB/number of attacks as well as 3 more ranged weapons with your secondary hands each round as a full-attack. Just be careful with chatkcha - your DM will probably have fun at your expense if you ever manage to throw and miss with 5 or more chatkcha in the same round. :D
- Go with both multiweapon fighting as well as multiattack, and as long as you restrict yourself to a single one-handed weapon and the rest light weapons, you can mix and match weapons and natural attacks however you want - in any case every attack will be at -2 to-hit, the one-handed weapon will receive full Str to damage and everything else gets 1/2 Str.
- Take (at least) multiweapon fighting, and use *two* two-handed weapons. Both will be at -4 to-hit, one of the weapons will be at 1.5x Str...and the other will be at either .5x Str or 1.5x Str, depending on how your DM wants to rule it. The problem here being that two-weapon fighting has the following to say:
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.
Technically speaking, the second two-handed weapon is both "being wielded two-handed (and isn't a light weapon)" as well as being a "weapon in your off hand" - so we've got a case of conflicting rules here. As DM I'd give this last situation a 1.5x Str damage bonus to each attack, since the thri-kreen is already suffering an additional to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in their off hands, plus it'd make wielding two two-handed weapons completely pointless (since you're losing a secondary attack and not even getting additional Str damage out of it). On the other hand, you can always wield two two-handed ranged weapons, in which case it won't really matter.
I hope I've thoroughly confused you now. :P
- Take the multiattack feat and use a single two-handed weapon. This gives you weapon attacks at your full BAB/number of attacks and Str * 1.5 damage bonus, and 2 claws and a bite at -2 to hit. You could even use a bow or other two-handed ranged weapon if you wanted.
You cannot make more then one secondary attack, irreguardless of how many natural weapons you have.
- Take (at least) multiweapon fighting, and use *two* two-handed weapons. Both will be at -4 to-hit, one of the weapons will be at 1.5x Str...and the other will be at either .5x Str or 1.5x Str, depending on how your DM wants to rule it. The problem here being that two-weapon fighting has the following to say:Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.
Technically speaking, the second two-handed weapon is both "being wielded two-handed (and isn't a light weapon)" as well as being a "weapon in your off hand" - so we've got a case of conflicting rules here. As DM I'd give this last situation a 1.5x Str damage bonus to each attack, since the thri-kreen is already suffering an additional to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in their off hands, plus it'd make wielding two two-handed weapons completely pointless (since you're losing a secondary attack and not even getting additional Str damage out of it). On the other hand, you can always wield two two-handed ranged weapons, in which case it won't really matter.
I hope I've thoroughly confused you now. :P
Maybe this only my oppinion, but I wouldn't give the 1.5xStr bonus for the "off-handed" two-handed weapon. My house rules regarding this would be:
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in your "main-hand" only, you add 1xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in your "off-hand", you add 0.5xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in more than one "hand", you add the bonuses of each "hand", the weapon is wielded with, to the damage.
- Light weapons can only be wielded in one "hand".
- One-handed weapons can only be wielded in up to two "hands".
- Two-handed weapons can only be wielded in up to four "hands".
Therefore:
- When you wield a weapon in your "main-hand" and your "off-hand", you would add 1.5xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wield a weapon in two of you "off-hands", you would add 1xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wield a weapon in your "main-hand" and two of your "off-hands", you would add 2xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wiled a weapon in your "main-hand" and three of you "off-hands", you would add 2.5xStr bonus to damage.
This isn't explicitly stated in the rules that way, but for me it is a logical conclusion.
If you are going to grant them a x2.5 strength bonus for using it in all hands (and why not when they only get a single secondary attack and have a bite for that anyway.), then what does power attack grant them? A 1 for 3 trade-off, then Leap Attack (which is very very easy for Thri-Kreen) grants them what? A 1 for 4 ratio. It just gets really out of hand. Pretty soon that thri-kreen is dealing upwards of 50 damage a strike forcing saves for massive damage. You get your strength bonus up to +6 (+15 damage), Charge with Leap Attack taking an effective -3 (+20 damage), and roll 2d6+2 and another 1d6 elemental damage (average of: 12). That's a total of 47 damage on an average strike, just watch out when they critical for over a 100 damage or if they take the risk of a higher penalty and hit for another 20 damage at 67 average.
Maybe this only my oppinion, but I wouldn't give the 1.5xStr bonus for the "off-handed" two-handed weapon. My house rules regarding this would be:
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in your "main-hand" only, you add 1xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in your "off-hand", you add 0.5xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you attack with a weapon you are wielding in more than one "hand", you add the bonuses of each "hand", the weapon is wielded with, to the damage.
- Light weapons can only be wielded in one "hand".
- One-handed weapons can only be wielded in up to two "hands".
- Two-handed weapons can only be wielded in up to four "hands".
Therefore:
- When you wield a weapon in your "main-hand" and your "off-hand", you would add 1.5xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wield a weapon in two of you "off-hands", you would add 1xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wield a weapon in your "main-hand" and two of your "off-hands", you would add 2xStr bonus to the damage.
- When you wiled a weapon in your "main-hand" and three of you "off-hands", you would add 2.5xStr bonus to damage.
This isn't explicitly stated in the rules that way, but for me it is a logical conclusion.
As for as kreen are concerned, specialze attacks with thrown "chatkcha" and leave their natural claws/bite alone, dont waste time with them, unless you wanna go with the feats improved unarmed attack, and the feat that allows you extra poison bite attacks, Prc classes like savage, tik tik and such will make good use of these attacks...
with a kreen thrown weapon of choice take focus, specialization, improved critical, possibly weapon finess considering the average kreen's dexterity
definetly make sure your kreen takes some kinda PrC class that gives him such specials like animal fighting, animal frenzy, improved animal fighting, reckless, piercing strikes, swift takedown, and a PrC that gives some kinda archer/sniper skills for it's thrown weapons
You cannot make more then one secondary attack, irreguardless of how many natural weapons you have.
Incorrect - both the Xill from the MM and the thri-kreen from the EPH list multiple secondary, natural weapon attacks in conjunction with one (or more) manufactured weapon attacks. The Thri-kreen is listed as using a longspear plus 2 claws and a bite, while the Xill is listed as using 2 shortswords plus 2 claws...and the thri-kreen has neither multiattack nor multiweapon fighting, so you can't even claim that this has something to do with one or both of those feats. I realize that there's rules listed somewhere else that say otherwise (at least, I recall their being some), but as far as I can tell they don't seem to apply to creatures with more than two arms. Not sure why this is, but the fact that we've got (at least) 2 different monsters, in two different books, indicating that it's so is good enough for me.
Maybe this only my oppinion, but I wouldn't give the 1.5xStr bonus for the "off-handed" two-handed weapon. My house rules regarding this would be:
...
This isn't explicitly stated in the rules that way, but for me it is a logical conclusion.
That's an interesting way to handle that situation, but it does give a huge advantage to a Kreen wielding a two-handed weapon.
If you are going to grant them a x2.5 strength bonus for using it in all hands (and why not when they only get a single secondary attack and have a bite for that anyway.), then what does power attack grant them? A 1 for 3 trade-off, then Leap Attack (which is very very easy for Thri-Kreen) grants them what? A 1 for 4 ratio. It just gets really out of hand. Pretty soon that thri-kreen is dealing upwards of 50 damage a strike forcing saves for massive damage. You get your strength bonus up to +6 (+15 damage), Charge with Leap Attack taking an effective -3 (+20 damage), and roll 2d6+2 and another 1d6 elemental damage (average of: 12). That's a total of 47 damage on an average strike, just watch out when they critical for over a 100 damage or if they take the risk of a higher penalty and hit for another 20 damage at 67 average.
I agree with Sage here - "stacking" these .5 multipliers in this way is a good path to horrible abuse. And anyway, although it's technically possible to wield a weapon with more than 2 hands, all of the existing rules - including what few there are regarding creatures with more than two hands - are totally void of anything to indicate that this is a possibility. My suggestions as to the various combinations all at least have some rule and/or precedence for them - the issue with two 2-handed weapons and what rule to use is still an issue, true, but at least we've actually *got* two (albeit conflicting) rules that directly apply to the situation.
what happens when you throw the feat "ambidexterity" into the mix...
As for as kreen are concerned, specialze attacks with thrown "chatkcha" and leave their natural claws/bite alone, dont waste time with them, unless you wanna go with the feats improved unarmed attack, and the feat that allows you extra poison bite attacks, Prc classes like savage, tik tik and such will make good use of these attacks...
with a kreen thrown weapon of choice take focus, specialization, improved critical, possibly weapon finess considering the average kreen's dexterity
definetly make sure your kreen takes some kinda PrC class that gives him such specials like animal fighting, animal frenzy, improved animal fighting, reckless, piercing strikes, swift takedown, and a PrC that gives some kinda archer/sniper skills for it's thrown weapons
Are you referring to 3e rules here? Ambidexterity was removed in 3.5, and there's no need for a thri-kreen to take Improved Unarmed Strike (not that I can think of, at least). As for your other suggestions they're not bad, although I'm not sure what-all PrC abilities/feats you're referring to in that last paragraph. Not saying that those are all 3e and not 3.5e or anything, just that I don't know what the heck they are. ;)
Incorrect - both the Xill from the MM and the thri-kreen from the EPH list multiple secondary, natural weapon attacks in conjunction with one (or more) manufactured weapon attacks. The Thri-kreen is listed as using a longspear plus 2 claws and a bite, while the Xill is listed as using 2 shortswords plus 2 claws...and the thri-kreen has neither multiattack nor multiweapon fighting, so you can't even claim that this has something to do with one or both of those feats. I realize that there's rules listed somewhere else that say otherwise (at least, I recall their being some), but as far as I can tell they don't seem to apply to creatures with more than two arms. Not sure why this is, but the fact that we've got (at least) 2 different monsters, in two different books, indicating that it's so is good enough for me.
Secondary attack is a technical term. It refers to an attack beyond the normal attacks aloted to you in a full attack action that incurs a -5 penalty to hit (-2 with multiattack feat). As a full attack action you can either make your full alotment of natural attack (or appearently as pointed out in another thread, substitute weapons for some or all of them), or use your normal attack progression (+11/+6/+1 or whatever) and in either case make a single "secondary attack" at -5 (-2 with multiattack).
You cannot however choose to make a full attack action making multiple attacks with one limb and then use the rest of your limbs and mandibles to make multiple secondary attacks, you can only make one secondary attack.
That's an interesting way to handle that situation, but it does give a huge advantage to a Kreen wielding a two-handed weapon.
If you are going to grant them a x2.5 strength bonus for using it in all hands (and why not when they only get a single secondary attack and have a bite for that anyway.), then what does power attack grant them? A 1 for 3 trade-off, then Leap Attack (which is very very easy for Thri-Kreen) grants them what? A 1 for 4 ratio. It just gets really out of hand. Pretty soon that thri-kreen is dealing upwards of 50 damage a strike forcing saves for massive damage. You get your strength bonus up to +6 (+15 damage), Charge with Leap Attack taking an effective -3 (+20 damage), and roll 2d6+2 and another 1d6 elemental damage (average of: 12). That's a total of 47 damage on an average strike, just watch out when they critical for over a 100 damage or if they take the risk of a higher penalty and hit for another 20 damage at 67 average.
Ok, I see the problem with wielding a two-handed weapon in more than two arm, however, 1,5x Str-Mod for wielding a two-handed weapon in two "off-hands" should still be in my opinion 1xStr-mod. (or maybe even only 0.75x Str-Mod, for half Str-bonus on damage for "off-hand" weapons).
Secondary attack is a technical term. It refers to an attack beyond the normal attacks aloted to you in a full attack action that incurs a -5 penalty to hit (-2 with multiattack feat). As a full attack action you can either make your full alotment of natural attack (or appearently as pointed out in another thread, substitute weapons for some or all of them), or use your normal attack progression (+11/+6/+1 or whatever) and in either case make a single "secondary attack" at -5 (-2 with multiattack).
You cannot however choose to make a full attack action making multiple attacks with one limb and then use the rest of your limbs and mandibles to make multiple secondary attacks, you can only make one secondary attack.
Hrm okay, not sure if we're saying the same thing but aren't understanding each other of if we're disagreeing here, so let me try to reiterate as well:
If mixing natural attacks and manufactured weapons, you can make a single, primary attack at your full BAB (including multiple attacks, if possible), and then make additional, secondary attacks using weapons and/or natural attacks, all attacks suffering an appropriate modifier based on the rules that correspond to them. In that other thread I posted a quote from the FAQ - I'm going to paste all the appropriate sections of that FAQ here:
What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary attacks along with a manufactured weapon? For example, lizardfolk have two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon?
Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full attack action and the additional natural weapons are free.
The example lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a natural secondary attack (–5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon attack substituted for one claw attack.
How do I know whether a monster gets multiple attacks for a high base attack bonus? Some of the monsters in the Monster Manual have multiple attacks, but others don’t, even with the same base attack bonus. Why doesn’t a great wyrm red dragon get eight bite attacks per round? After all, its base attack bonus is +40.
The rules for multiple attacks are different for manufactured weapons (such as swords and bows) and for natural weapons (such as claws and bites). A creature wielding a weapon gets multiple attacks based on its base attack bonus, regardless of whether that creature is a goblin, a giant, or a pit fiend. Regardless of its base attack bonus, a creature never gets more than four attacks with any given weapon purely from its base attack bonus (see the sidebar on page 207 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide)—thus, if a great wyrm red dragon could wield a manufactured weapon, it still could make only four attacks with it as part of a full attack action (at +40/+35/+30/+25)
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. A young adult red dragon gets only one bite attack per round, even though a fighter with the same +19 base attack bonus attacks four times per round with a sword or other manufactured weapon.
What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses a manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For instance, suppose a 5th-level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe. What would this creature’s attack routine be?
Just add the natural secondary attacks to the manufactured attacks the creature can make. Assuming that the example character has five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6 (+1 for being a lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the character doesn’t use a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks available—her bite and her free claw. She has a –5 penalty when using a natural secondary weapons. So, when the character uses the full attack action, her attack routin
However, if the example character were using the standard attack action instead, she could make only one attack. This single attack could be a +6 if she used the manufactured weapon or a claw (a lizard folk’s claws are the primary natural weapon), or +1 if the character chooses to bite. You always take the secondary weapon penalty when you use a secondary natural weapon (see the Monster Manual glossary).
So really, it's not that you're "replacing natural attacks with manufactured weapons" as you're adding natural attacks to manufactured weapons attacks. As far as I can tell, this means that, basically, you determine number of attacks and to-hit penalties for every manufactured weapon you have, using the Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiweapon Fighting rules (as appropriate), and then if taking a full-attack action you get to add any remaining natural attacks as secondary, natural attacks, meaning that they're 1-attack each at a -5 penalty, or -2 if you have multiweapon fighting.
Seeing as I haven't been playing with d20 rules for almost a year and don't have any plans to start again in the near future, I'm just going to assume that my understanding was mistaken and not comment anymore on this matter. Sorry for the erroneous information, although I do believe that there is a logical basis for what I was saying, I don't think that it worth the effort to go back and figure out what that was.
No prob, didn't mean to sound overly confrontational about this or anything, and I didn't know you weren't currently playing d20 which is going to have a huge impact on rules interpretations, I'd imagine. Although 3.5e has been out for awhile, is it possible that you're thinking about the older 3e rules instead? I'm 95% sure that they explicitly stated that if you used any manufactured weapons you only got a single secondary attack, period, and it wasn't one of those rules changes from 3 to 3.5 that was important or common enough to be brought up on a regular basis, and so was easily overlooked (as I mentioned on this or that other thread, even I thought this was the case until I spent time looking up and re-reading rules).
Seeing as I haven't been playing with d20 rules for almost a year and don't have any plans to start again in the near future, I'm just going to assume that my understanding was mistaken and not comment anymore on this matter. Sorry for the erroneous information, although I do believe that there is a logical basis for what I was saying, I don't think that it worth the effort to go back and figure out what that was.
Well actually, you're kind of right. Expanded Psionics handbook, on page 15, in the thri-keen's racial write-up it specifically says that they cannot make more than one secondary attack if they use a full attack, so it's iterative attacks plus a secondary attack with a bite or claw for thri-keen.
Your only error was in thinking that it was a general rule, which it's not, apparantly wotc just didn't like the idea of thri-keen with iterative attacks plus five natural attacks.
Well actually, you're kind of right. Expanded Psionics handbook, on page 15, in the thri-keen's racial write-up it specifically says that they cannot make more than one secondary attack if they use a full attack, so it's iterative attacks plus a secondary attack with a bite or claw for thri-keen.
...which is contradicted by the thri-kreen monster entry towards the end of the book, where they're not only listed as getting full secondary natural attacks as part of their full-attack option but also, under the "thri-kreen as characters" section, their natural attacks are listed without any of the associated "only 1 secondary attack" rules from the beginning of the book.
I just checked the Errata for EPH, and there's no comment on this - although there might be something in one of the FAQs, unless you're going to be a meanie DM I really don't understand why you'd go with the "only 1 secondary natural attack" rather than every other multi-limb-combat rule out there that says otherwise. From a feat/to-hit/damage perspective the rules listed for the thri-kreen at the beginning of the EPH don't make any sense - it says it's okay to take Multiweapon fighting and use, say, a longsword and 3 shortswords (which will all do more damage, have a higher threat range, and a lower to-hit penalty than claws) plus a bite, but that it's somehow not okay to replace any of these "off-hand" weapons with an inferior natural attack?