Yet I like better the equipment charts, clerical domains and magic lists in general in Athas.org, as I like that they eliminated some core classes, sorcerers make no sense in Athas. Yet I don't like a core class for the Templar or the Gladiator... both can be made with feats and domains for cleric and fighter or PrCs.
How about you?
It most of a personal reason, not really a rational one.
It's not that I don't like the mechanics or rules (wich I might say, are pretty good), it's more that I like to keep things nice and simple, I don't like adding Core Classes when taking some feats with another fills the role nicely.
It most of a personal reason, not really a rational one.
I don't find it at all irrational. Personally, I like to keep things as simple as possible as well. I like keeping as much as possible from the available resources without creating or using new things. I don't see any need for seperate classes as far as gladiators and templars go, as well. That being said, I do like the battle dancer (Dragon Compendium) and favored soul (Complete Divine) as alternate choices for someone wanting to play something different. I've also been eyeballing the dragon shaman (PHII) for alternate templars as well. Personally, I like the half-giant from the EPH. All the benefits of being large without the negatives. And I was never a fan of the fact that they were so big in the first place. It's the pterrans that I've never been a fan of. Next time around I'm going to use the psionic yuan-ti in their place.
In the end, though, you must create the game that works well for you. There's nothing wrong with combining elements from both sources if that works for you.
That's what I wanted to see in this topic, wich rules are used by other people, and why.
In a hate-free enviroment it's extremelly refreshing, because you can the analyze why the others like something and see if their ideas can somehow affect yours, and vice-versa of course.
Now that you mention the Half-Giant from EPH, yeah, rules-wise I think it's the most playable, though it lacks a bit in the comparison to "literal" Athasian Half-giants. It's cool though!
I've been reading a lot of Dark Sun 3.5 rules from both sources, and the thing is, I like some things from both sets, for example, I like the idea a of Paizo races being all +1 LA the least (however I don't like the Half- Giant in both rulesets, in athas.org is not a very good race, it's fisical gain can't offset that enormous mental loss and Paizos version is too small and weak to truly represent an Athasian Half-Giant)
Yet I like better the equipment charts, clerical domains and magic lists in general in Athas.org, as I like that they eliminated some core classes, sorcerers make no sense in Athas. Yet I don't like a core class for the Templar or the Gladiator... both can be made with feats and domains for cleric and fighter or PrCs.
How about you?
I mix and match a lot of things, and/or have adjusted things to suit my view of Dark Sun. So... I tend to really tweak the hell out of it all. I personally like the Paizo rendition of Defilers, however I don't like the T'liz connection (which is clunky) -- so instead, I pulled that out, and I also incorporated the addiction rules from Book of Vile Darkness. I borrowed a *ton* of ideas from Unearthed Arcana, and also have used other little tweaks to races, classes, what have you. So I'm not really a purist to any one specific ruleset for Dark Sun, that's for sure.
Ahh, Paizo... Dwarves with beards?! Did they even read the original material???
/rant (sorry, hadda say it)
IMO, there's a reason why Athas.org was chosen to continue producing official material for Dark Sun. They try not to contradict what's already been established as DS canon without neccessary reason.
PigLick
I actually like the races as +1 LA the least, besides, it's just for calculating CRs, as you can ignore at least +1 LA because everyone has at least that. It kinda better represents the 4d6+4 and minimum 4th level of the AD&D version.
Yeah, DS lite is a good way to put it
xlore likes to call it Dim Sun, which is another good name for it!
xlore likes to call it Dim Sun, which is another good name for it!
I can't take full credit for it. My best friend actually coined the term, after he got tired of me calling it "Bizarro Dark Sun" (Dim Sun rolls off the tongue better).
I actually like the races as +1 LA the least, besides, it's just for calculating CRs, as you can ignore at least +1 LA because everyone has at least that. It kinda better represents the 4d6+4 and minimum 4th level of the AD&D version.
For races as houserule I use:
RACES
=====
Human
=====
> +2 to any ability score, +2 to any other ability score (LA +1)
> Medium.
> Speed 30 ft.
> Extra Feat at 1st level.
> 4 extra skill points at 1st lvl and 1 extra skill point per lvl.
> +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks
Dwarf
=====
> +4 Con, +2 Str, -2 Dex. (LA +1)
> Medium.
> Speed 20 ft. Can move this speed even when wearing heavy armor.
> Darkvision 60 ft.
> Weapon Familiarity: Waraxe.
> +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
> +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells.
> Dwarven Focus. +1 bonus on checks direct related to the focus.
Elf
===
> +4 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con. (LA +1)
> Medium.
> Speed 40 ft.
> Low-light vision.
> Weapon Proficiency: Long Sword, Rapier, and Bows.
> +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks.
> Resistance to extreme heat/cold enviroments.
> Elven Run. Fortitute save DC 10. +1 for each previous day on the run. Elves running in group can add their leader Charisma bonus to their rolls.
Mul
===
> +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha. (LA +1)
> Medium.
> Speed 30 ft.
> Darkvision 30 ft.
> Incredible Endurance.
> Extended Activity. 16 hours instead of 8.
> +2 racial bonus on Intimidade checks.
> Dwarven blood.
Half-Elf
========
> +2 Dex, +2 to any ability score. (LA +1)
> Medium.
> Speed 30 ft.
> Low-light vision.
> +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks.
> +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal and Survival checks.
> Animal Companion (up to 2 HD).
> Elven blood.
Halfling
========
> +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Str. (LA +1)
> Small. +1 Att, +1 AC, +4 on Hide Checks, carrying capacity x2/3.
> Speed 20 ft.
> +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump and Move Silently checks.
> +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear.
> Weapon Focus: javelin and sling.
> +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
> Scent.
Half-Giant
==========
> +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha.
> Giant Type. 2d8 HD. BAB +1, Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +0. ECL 3.
Skill points equal 5x(2 + Int modifier). Class skills Climb, Jump,
Listen and Spot. Starting Bonus Feat.
> Large. -1 Att, -1 AC, -4 on Hide checks, carrying capacity x2.
> Speed 40 ft.
> Martial Weapon, Armor(Heavy) and Shield Proficiency.
> +2 natural armor.
> Axis Alignment.
> Giant Blood.
Thri-kreen
==========
> +2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha.
> Monstrous Humanoid. 2d8 HD. BAB +2, Fort +0, Ref +3, Will +3. ECL 3.
Skill points 5x(2 + Int modifier). Class skills Balance, Climb, Hide,
Jump, Listen and Spot. Starting Bonus Feat.
> Medium.
> Speed 40 ft.
> Darkvision 60 ft.
> +3 natural armor.
> Dodge Missiles: Deflect Arrows Feat.
> Leap: +30 racial bonus on all Jump checks.
> Weapon Familiarity: chatkcha and gythka.
> Natural Weapons. Primary: Bite (1d4); Secondary: Claws (1d4x4).
> Poison: Paralysis 2d6 minutes (Fortitude Save DC 11 + Con Mod).
> Immunity to sleep.
I still can't wrap it around my head how a Mul and Giant have phenominal stat mods in relation to the standard races (elves, dwarves) when in OE they were balanced in relation to each other.
I also like the level adjustment applying to all, slows advancement somewhat. I think it's way too fast in 3e, so I like anything that slows it down.
Class-wise I go with Athas.org, except with the Gladiator. I use my own that borrows from theirs and some from Conan OGL classes to attempt to get a better match with OE. It still has a few wrinkles to work out, but I really like it. I really like the Templar from Athas, though I've been think about adding a Domain feature. That way they have a little variation between SK's. So they'd get a single Domain and the Assigned spells in addition to existing features.
Maybe I missed it, but what is "OE"?
Good question.
Maybe I missed it, but what is "OE"?
Old English, they come in 40s
In AD&D every athasian character had some psionic power, and they represented it quite well, even if it's in a quite limiting way.
What I don't like is the Half-Giant... they just don't fit with the original description of the race... sure, Powerfull Build is an excelent racial trait, but their inborn psionic power is weak (because of the low Saving Throw) and they only get a +2 Str... while Muls get that and +4 Cons. It simply doesn't add up.
The problem is, the Athas.org HG gains to little, and loses to much, -4 to all mental atributes is to bad for a +8 Str in a +2 LA. Let's remember that a Half-Dragon is +3 LA, has +8 to Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Car, a lot of inmunities, a breath weapon... etc...
Besides, like I said before, I like all athasian races as naturally psionic.
Maybe I'll stop my grumbling and take my shot at creating a Half-Giant. Who knows, maybe you'll like it!
Note to self: If I do that, I should also do a cool Rogue Modron, using the Living Construct subtype.
The problem is, the Athas.org HG gains to little, and loses to much, -4 to all mental atributes is to bad for a +8 Str in a +2 LA. Let's remember that a Half-Dragon is +3 LA, has +8 to Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Car, a lot of inmunities, a breath weapon... etc...
To be exact, our half-giant has a LA of +1 and two racial HD. But I have to admit that I also deem the mali too high. I use a version with Wis -2 personally and have not noticed any bad effect on gameplay. I even still think my version should be powered up a little more. The two HD of giant seem just a liability.
Note to self: If I do that, I should also do a cool Rogue Modron, using the Living Construct subtype.
Please do! And if you do, please drop me a PM!
I have based myself in the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny.
Half-Giant
Half-Giant Racial Traits:
- +6 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitutions, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
- Giant: Half-Giants are considered of the Giant type.
- Large: As Large creatures, Half-Giants take a -1 penalty to Armor Class and a -1 penalty on attack rolls. They also have reach 10 feet.
- Half-Giants base land speed is 30 feet.
- Darkvision: Half-Giants have Darkvision 60 feet.
- Inborn Power: Half-Giants gain 3 power points at 1st level, regardless of whether they choose a psionic class or not. They can use the power points provided to manifest their Grip of Iron power. If you take levels in a psionic class, just add the power to your powers known and the power points to your reserve, in addition to those granted by the class.
- Automatic Language: Common
Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant.
- Favored Class: Barbarian
- Level Adjustment: +2
Note: I've done also a very preliminary version of the Rogue Modron, here's the link to the planescape board
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11313454#post11313454
Understand that we are bound to follow the rules of the game.
This explanation references the Monster Manual, which was heavily consulted while making the Half-Giant.
Half giants are large creatures. As such, if you reference the back of the MM where rules for crafting your own monsters are printed, Table 5-1 lists Creature Size, Ability Score and Damage. Page 296.
In this chart, Large creatures have a Minimum HD of 2. This is to reflect their mass. "A garagntuan creature with 2 Hit Dice would be larger than an elephant, but would have the hit points of a wolf" ... it's an effort to enforce logic.
Now, creatures with One HD are free to get that Hit Die from class levels, instead of racial HD. Creatures with more than one hit die are not free to pick that up from class levels. By the book, if your race has more than one hit die naturally, that's what you start with.
This is futher re-enforced in MM2. Front of the book, this time. Page 6, minimum HD for a large giant: 2d8. Note that minium HD for a medium-size giant is 1d8 -- you could get around all this by making half-giant's medium size, which is more-or-less what XPH did. And that sure went over well, didn't it?
There is no such table in MM4.
Now, onto Strength. Take a human, grow him to Large: +8 Str, -2 dex, +4 con. Those are exactly the physcial adjustments of a half-giant.
There is argument to be made that the mental adjustments are a bit harsh. At this point, I'd probably concur, that if a boost was needed, a bump to wisdom or intelligence would be fine. I'd argue against bumping charisma because a race of people who "define" themselves by imitating others have no real sense-of-self which is one of the major things that charisma represents in 3e.
LA +1 is mostly to account for: Reach, and the signifigant strength score.
By way of comparison:
From MM:
- Fire Giant (Large), 15hd, +20 str, -2 dex, +10 con, +4 Wis, LA +4
- Frost Giant (Large), 14hd, +18 Str, -2 Dex, +10 con, +4 wis, LA +4
- Hill Giant, 12hd, +14 str, -2 dex, +8 con, -4 int, -4 cha, LA +4
- Stone Giant, 14hd, +16 Str, +4 dex, + 8 con, +2 wis, LA +4
- Ogre 4hd, +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int, -4 cha, LA +2. Please note that an example entry of an Ogre barbarian is included, which has 4 barbarian levels and 4 ogre levels. racial HD are non-optional.
Let's look for a more recent example. MM4 stats some example ogres, building off the entry in MM1. Example characters are still including racial HD. Those are the only giants statted in MM4. I don't have access to MM3 at the moment.
Large giant-types in MM2:
- Firbolg, 13HD, +26 str, +2 dex, +12 con, +2 int, +3 wis, +4 cha, LA +18(!)
All other giant types are huge or larger.
So, our comparision points are a bit limited, given that we don't want a natural HD in the 10's ... which leaves us with the Ogre. Honestly, the half-giant as is compares rather favorably with the Ogre. Fewer HD, and a lower level adjustment, but a few more ability score penalities and a lower strength adjustment.
So, that is why the half-giant is what it is.
http://worldofathas.tripod.com/Documents/Races.pdf
or simply here for all of it:
http://worldofathas.tripod.com/material.htm
It's not been updated in... uhh, a long time... but still it's a fairly accurate, though incomplete (magic is not up to date, and psionics isn't there, hmm...) version of the material I conceived and use in my Dark Sun Campaigns.
My group and I playtested it in at least 3 multi- 8+ hour sessions campaigns and it works out pretty well. I still get feedback on it from people who happen on the site by chance and it's generally been well recieved. I really enjoy imput from others on it too so I can make adjustments and improvements, so anyone please feel free to send me some.
Thought it might interest you, since I didn't care all that much for athas.org's conversion and found paizo's really inadequate for Dark Sun.
However, simple playtest will quickly show why this is not a good way to go, because even if you have all sorts of abilities to justify a +4 LA, if you have only one hit die, pretty much any level 5 character is going to run you through, since they'll probably only have to hit you once kill you, and they'll get a few chances with their higher saves and hp. The higher the ECL of the creature, the more racial hit die you have to give it, or it just won't work.
I'd also point out that the half-giants of the original AD&D dark sun had more hit points, which the racial HDs can represent. In any event, greater size = more HDs just makes sense, and that's how the d20 system works anyways.
You may not HAVE to give them HDs, but think about how you ECL 3 Half-Giant fighter is going to feel like with only 12 hit points average...
@Flip: I wrote you a PM.
Shei-Nad, one of the reasons HG are ECL +3 is *because* they have 2 HD. The Giant type doesn't really give much, and it's "only" d8 hit points ... HGs get far more HP out of their con bonus than they will out of a couple of mid-range hit dice ...
Shei-Nad, one of the reasons HG are ECL +3 is *because* they have 2 HD. The Giant type doesn't really give much, and it's "only" d8 hit points ... HGs get far more HP out of their con bonus than they will out of a couple of mid-range hit dice ...
I know, that's what I was saying, or actually, I was saying a LA +2 half-giant fighter 1 wouldn't really be an ECL 3 creature, since it would end up with only an average of 12 hp, and its abilities wouldn't back the ECL 3 up.
Think of that svirfneblin. Lets say a rogue. At first class level, that sfirvneblin would have about 6 hp, and would have to face CR 4 monsters. He'd likely get killed right away the first time he got hit. Or think about a level 4 party facing that svirfneblin rogue. You really think he'd last long? There is no way he is an ECL 4 creature. Any small amount of playtesting proves that.
I'd also point out that the MM3.5 recommends against giving creatures less hit dice than their CRs (p.297), probably for that very reason.
Finally, my Half-Giant conversion also uses 2 racial humanoid hit dice.
I would point out that, contrary to your statement, the giant type DOES grant benefits, such as making half-giants immune to many low-level spells and effects, especially mind-affecting ones, like the charm person spell or power, which affects creatures of the humanoid type only.
I've read some argue that spells that affect humanoids can also affect giants, since they are in essence big bipedal creatures, but that would also mean that spell that affect animals should pretty much affect humanoids. In any case, the official rules don't agree. For example, the official D&D half-giant racial type trait from the XPH:
HALF-GIANTS
• Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
That means Half-Giants of the giant type are actually harder to charm, dominate, daze, etc, than most other athasian races. Charm monster is required to charm a half-giant, at least in other conversions I've seen. Does athas.org's half-giant still work like that?
Yes, Athas.org's half-giant, being a Giant type creature, is immune to those spells that specifically specify "humanoid" as their target type. That includes Charm Person.
You're confusing CR and ECL. They are not specifically related. And the Svirfneblin you cite is only a CR 1. LA 3, yes, but only a CR 1, for the very reasons you cite.
Abilities that affect CR only slightly can affect LA much more, because of use. CR is a one-encounter throwaway ... but when you get to reuse them all day, they have a siginifigant impact on your character. Remember that LA isn't just about first level characters, and survivability does go up.
Challendge rating and effective charater level measure two different things. CR measures the threat level of a monster, and ECL measures its relative effectiveness comparedd to a character of one of the standard races, as given in the player's handbook. The factors that go into making a good challenge and a good character are so different that CR is no help in the latter case. A monster is only "on the scene" for a very short while, usually just a few rounds. A player character, on the other hand, is present for almost every scene of the adventure.
For example, it makes little difference to a monster's CR if a spell-like ability is usable at will or once per day. It probably won't live long enough for the frequency of use to make a difference. But the distinction makes a huge difference to a PC who could potentially use the ability in every encounter. Further, if a pwerful creature (such as a balor) has access to a plethora of spell-like abilities, that fact doesn't affect its CR too heavilily, because it only gets to use three or four of them in a given encounter. Again, however, that kind of flexibility matters a lot to a PC.
As illustrated by these examples, CR and ECL measure two different things, so both are necessary. Never assume that CR and ECL are equivalant, or even related
So, the svir. has: unbalanced ability scores, actually a negative. extended darkvision. Spell Resistance 11 + class level (this is big). Racial +1 modifier to illusion DCs. +4 dodge modifier to AC. Some minor spells per day -- comparable to gnome's. Bonuses to hide, listen and Craft(alchemy). And continuous non-detection.
So, by SS: +1 for the natural armor adjustment (It's really a dodge adjustment, but same spirit). +1 for having a racial bonus with three or more skill checks. (but that's kinda crap). +1 for having Spell Resistance.
That's where the +3 probably comes from. Of course, these are not hard-and fast, and I'd have to say that +3 is definately bad for this guy. Those are +2 at the high end, and might only be a +1. I'd compare to a Teifling, if I had the energy for it, but I think I've chased down this rabbit hole long enough.