I have been looking a lot into Mystara's history lately (both canonical and fan-based), exploring it's vast wealth of background and potential. One of the many things I will be posting for D&D ;) is the subject of Mystara's axial shift and mapping. (Note: I am not a mathematician OR cartographer :D )
Here are a few assumptions:
- the axis shifted by about 37 degrees; measured the angle between the pre- and post-cataclysmic equators on the HW's world map.
- the original poles cannot be further than 37 degrees away from the present day poles.
- the pre- and post-cataclysmic equators must cross each other at two locations; once at opposite sides of the planet.
- the pre-cataclysmic equator, as it would appear on the post-cataclysmic map, must be a wave, not straight.
- the tilt of Mystara in relation to the sun remained the same; as evidenced by the identical latitude of the tropics.
- the Mentzer map shows latitude as equal distances whether at the equator or the pole; makes it easy to measure degrees latitude.
What this means to me (and I may be wrong so let's find out) is that Glantri (or the Adri Varma Plateau) cannot be the location of the original north pole being around 50 degrees away from the current noth pole. Furthermore, the direction of the old pole must be perpendicular from where the two equators intersect.
(To visualize this, I held a tennis ball with my thumb and forefinger so that my thumb was centered on the side that faced me and my finger was directly opposite it. I then place a finger from my other hand on to the top of the ball where the pole would be. Then, I just rotated it down somewhat, observing how much various latitudes had changed.)
What I (think I) discovered was that the original north pole (according to information from maps) was around-ish the area of the Sylvan Realm/Midlands. The south pole was originally around the center of the Peninsula of Vulcania. The Known World region was only about 15 degrees higher than it is now and the Tangor Peninsula's latitude was basically unchanged.
Another observation is that Thonia and Blackmoor were actually about 15 degrees higher than indicated on the HW world map; Blackmoor at around 60 degrees north and Thonia spreads around 45 degrees north. I think this fits better with their descriptions.
Any comments?
- the axis shifted by about 37 degrees; measured the angle between the pre- and post-cataclysmic equators on the HW's world map.
If you accept that the map as presented in the HW set is correct, then this is correct. Herein lies the fundamental disagreement. Because I know for a mathematical certitude that parts of the map are clearly wrong (eg incorrect curling of the Vulcanian Peninsula), other features - such as the points of preserved latitude - are suspect.
The most crucial issue is: what is the correct longitude along which the shift occured?
- the original poles cannot be further than 37 degrees away from the present day poles.
Yes, whatever shift you go with (X degrees), the original poles will now be at 90-X degrees N and S. Further, they'll be 180 degrees apart longitude-wise.
- the pre- and post-cataclysmic equators must cross each other at two locations; once at opposite sides of the planet.
Again, correct, regardless of shift (so long as >0).
- the pre-cataclysmic equator, as it would appear on the post-cataclysmic map, must be a wave, not straight.
Sinusoidal in the broader sense of the term, with a single peak and trough equidistant from the standard equator. Further, the extrema will occur on your longitude of shift (or its 180-degree counterpart), and the points of intersection will be 90 degrees to either side. Locally at the point of intersection, this curve does look like a line - the mistake was in extending it out to such an extent.
Thus, if you assume the map is correct, (at this point, I'm going from memory of the map, correct me if I'm wrong) one point of intersection is at (0,0), so the longitude of shift would have been on 90 W/90E. So your old north pole is 90W-53N (continental interior), and the south pole is 90E-53S.
- the tilt of Mystara in relation to the sun remained the same; as evidenced by the identical latitude of the tropics.
Again, assuming the map is correct, then this is true. As a practical matter, I also take this as an axiomatic fact as it doesn't affect the lat-long transformation.
What this means to me (and I may be wrong so let's find out) is that Glantri (or the Adri Varma Plateau) cannot be the location of the original north pole being around 50 degrees away from the current noth pole.
By my calculations elsewhere (see Western Alliance appendix for a description), 48N is about the southern tip of the Menguls. 42N is just up from the Glantri-Darokin border. That makes Glantri around 43-48 degrees off-pole, and the Adri Varma 39-45 off-pole.
Now there are numerous instances of textual support for the north pole to be in on near the Known World. And I think that should be given more weight. Working with the textual assertion that Mystara Blackmoor is where the (true) north pole is, and assuming that it was in a northern latitude (42+) but not subarctic (<60), that puts the shift at 30-48 degrees. I favor - with cause but, ultimately, just a choice - that M-Blackmoor was at 45N. That corresponds to northern Maine, a sufficiently cold area.
Furthermore, the direction of the old pole must be perpendicular from where the two equators intersect.
Only in the local sense. The old poles will be the extrema of a grand circle that intersects the equator at the above mentioned points in a perpendicular fashion. As you move away from this point, though, curve distortion will appear in every projection you would use.
Think of a direct flight from NY to Tokyo. It's always shown in commercials and maps as a curve because of this distortion, despite being a straight flight.
Also, this perpendicularity is only relative to the tilted equatorial curve - not the standard one. you can't climb the standard latitudes from that point. However, as per the math above, you can go 90 degrees off in standard longitude and then freely climb the standard lats.
So to recap today's lesson 1) assume an axial shift of X degrees (positive for our purposes)
2) assume a static equatorial point at (Y,0) (W positive, E negative)
3) the old north pole is at (Y+90 West, 90-X North)
4) the old south pole is at (Y-90 West, 90-X South) [if long is negative, it's east]
-OldDawg
el profe
If you discard the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map entirely, then Blackmoor shouldn't be on Skothar at all, but on Brun. You will have to make a map where the Known World is around the Old North Pole and Blackmoor is where the new North Pole would be, using the Mentzer map as a basis.
If you could also get the Valley of the Ancients to appear near Glantri/Broken Lands, that would be great, though I think those would be hard to reconcile.
I have decided to go the other way. My assumption is that the HW map is more or less correct, though allowing for a few modifications. The consequence of this is that I have to reconsider the North Pole references. I have decided to read them as the Known World being covered by ice, possibly as a result of a post nuclear ice age, or a glacier covering that region.
Havard
Also, as a point of notice, IIRC Blackmoor is described in DA1 as only having its cooler climate due to the presence of the Frostfire Channel (I think that's the one to the left of Blackmoor) which has a cool current, and that Blackmoor otherwise is fairly temperate. Again, not certain how/if that affects the discussion, but just mentioned it in regards to things being mentioned in canon having weight.
(In that regard, it is also stated in several places- Gaz10, notably, on map and in text- that Blackmoor is in north-central Brun, but that was later disregarded, so I think that whatever works out best physically- from global positioning, latitude/longitude calculations, etc.- should probably take precedence over something mentioned in the text that otherwise would seem incongruous.)
Havard:If you discard the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map entirely, then Blackmoor shouldn't be on Skothar at all, but on Brun.
That's a non-sequitur. To assert that the Pre-GRoF map is wrong (in sum or part) is different and (somewhat) independent than whether M-Blackmoor was on Skothar or Brun. The first concerns the graphical representation of information; the second "parameterizes" the problem [ie sets the conditions to make it have a unique solution]
Havard: You will have to make a map where the Known World is around the Old North Pole and Blackmoor is where the new North Pole would be, using the Mentzer map as a basis.
I (and others) have done that. For me, Blackmoor proper is amidst the frozen northern isles. Oliron (or something) looks like a good candidate.
Cthulhudrew: ...does the size of Mystara as compared to the RW Earth (smaller, in the PWAs) affect these latitude/longitude figures in any way?
Not really. All of the discussion about rotation is irrespective of the spherical radius. There is a small caveat about rotating a bulging object, but for simplicity we can ingnore that.
FWIW: the values found in the PWA's seem to be low in their estimates, if you work out the miles per degree latitude and compare with where tropics, arctic circle etc. should roughly be on a 24mph map.
Cthulhudrew: ... Blackmoor is described in DA1 as only having its cooler climate due to ... the Frostfire Channel ... otherwise is fairly temperate.
Yeah, cool temperate was my general impression, which would mostly be in the 40's latitude-wise.
In regards to Blackmoor in Central Brun, I always reconciled that as meaning the large pre-Rain human civilization collectively termed Blackmoor than as the specific city where Uther once lived.
The other thing to remember is that the "Borea" and "Hyborea", when used to discuss the beastmen migrations, should really be conditioned for pre- or post-Rain talk. pre-rain Borea and Hyborea would be whatever gets you north and to the polar cap. It just so happens that what we know as the Borean Valley satisfies this for both timeframes - just opposite ends.
Havard:f you could also get the Valley of the Ancients to appear near Glantri/Broken Lands, that would be great, though I think those would be hard to reconcile.
There may be one two many constraints on the problem, but I'll see what I can do for you.
-OldDawg
Havard: If you could also get the Valley of the Ancients to appear near Glantri/Broken Lands, that would be great, though I think those would be hard to reconcile.
Okay took a look. I used the maps at your site to get an idea of the distance between blackmoor and the Valley of the Gods. Its really only about 8 24 mph distant.
1) if VoG were Broken Lands, the the city of Blackmoor would be in either the valleys of Glantri or the SW ethengar steppes (depending on where you want to take the direction)
2) if VoG were the Glantrian Valleys, CoB is on the Adri Varma or the Wendarian Range.
All options are putting bodies of water in odd spots. In case 2 (AV) The NP would be (guestimating here) just on the other side of the eastern lip of the Borean Valley, and Goblin Kush would be either the northern Black Mountains or the far western Kurrish Massif.
-OldDawg
Aside from the rotation of the axis that (IIRC) is completely opposite the one shown on the HW map, you get the strangeness of- as OldDawg notes- bodies of water appearing (or, rather, disappearing) in strange places. The Ethengarian grasslands, for one, are where the Frostfire Channel appears on the old Blackmoor maps, and much of Darokin and the Atruaghin lands would have been underwater in the Blackmoor era. It would also put Thonia in the middle of central Brun (which isn't really all that odd, and would sort of fit with the Gaz10 assumptions of Blackmoorian locations). It sadly doesn't work all that well, though.
It would also mean that the lands we know as Alfheim would have been underwater (largely) in Blackmoorian times, and place the lands of the Egg of Coot somewhere around the Dwarfgate Mountains, IIRC.
(And I'm not positive, but I don't think the distance between the Comeback Inn and the CoG quite fits with the distance between Glantri City and the Broken Lands, either.)
In the end, I think we really have to assume that both the NoS and the Comeback Inn were moved to their present locations for reasons unknown (WotI has this happening for the NoS, but we've as yet no rationale for the Inn- and the flooding and glaciation mentioned in DA1 don't seem to quite fit its incredible migration, IMO.)
It looks like we are all pretty much in agreement with everything. I do have some more questions and comments, naturally.
Here's a problem - How can there be a 90°N or 90°S with the presence of the polar openings? There must be a lost in latitude (not land as such because it wraps around). According to the measurements in the PWAs, the polar openings can only be a maximum of a couple of hundred miles in size at their smallest point.
This presents a uniquely Mystaran mapping problem. Any ideas on how to handle it. I figure the extreme high latitudes need to be stretched notationally but not necessarily physically.
As for Blackmoor's location, I like what Havard has done with his maps the best. It also looks like it would end up close to the north pole after the shift as well; not dead on but close enough.
Could we explain the glacier activity that had occured in the Known World (especially the NWern areas) on altitude? In addition to the shift to lower latitudes, if the region had sunk during both the GRoF and Broken Lands disaster (and to lesser degrees continued after these events), could this not explain the 'ice age' and subsequent change?
Quote:
Havard:If you discard the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map entirely, then Blackmoor shouldn't be on Skothar at all, but on Brun.
That's a non-sequitur. To assert that the Pre-GRoF map is wrong (in sum or part) is different and (somewhat) independent than whether M-Blackmoor was on Skothar or Brun. The first concerns the graphical representation of information; the second "parameterizes" the problem [ie sets the conditions to make it have a unique solution]
I suppose you are right. What I'm going concerned about is which sources you use. If you choose to disregard one source (ie the HW map), then there are no other sources supporting Blackmoor's location on Skothar. Ofcourse, you can pick and choose elements from varying sources, but that also ends up being a bit of a mess.
Personally, I don't really mind Blackmoor's location being a bit of a mystery. I suppose a lot of people like to claim Blackmoorian ancestry on Mystara and alot of people would like to have their country being founded on the ruins of Blackmoor.
In the end, I think we really have to assume that both the NoS and the Comeback Inn were moved to their present locations for reasons unknown (WotI has this happening for the NoS, but we've as yet no rationale for the Inn- and the flooding and glaciation mentioned in DA1 don't seem to quite fit its incredible migration, IMO.)
The Comeback Inn/Inn Between the Worlds appears in different places in time, so why not space as well? Perhaps the Inn is unaffected by the axial tilt shift and even the planets rotation around the sun?
The Beagle was ofcourse removed by the Old Ones [tm] and put back in a different location. The Inn could also have been affected by this. Perhaps some connection between the Inn and the NoS was established at one point?
Havard
Hm, this is one interesting subject, one that I always had a lot of questions about (the polar entrances being one of them).
-Were this axial shift permanent, and Blackmoor is still the noth pole? Looks like that's not the case, since Skothar isn't at the north pole, and much likely we had seasons back at Blackmoor and we sure do have them now (AC 1000-1013). So, how long it took for the planet to go back to it's former position? The polar entraces for HW were only temporaly outside the poles, them?
-After the GRoF, in which direction the current axis went? I mean, did we no longer had seasons? Or the differences between each season were much more strong?
Hugin: Here's a problem - How can there be a 90°N or 90°S with the presence of the polar openings?
You can still have a 90N or S with the openings - if you use the astronomical definition of latitude (angle of the North Star off the horizon - south doesn't have as nice a rule
)This leaves you with a North-Pole Circle, which is the way it's represented on the HW maps. For all the points on this circle, the Mystaran equivalent of Polaris is directly overhead.
What the maps show as "True 90" in the inward curve is supposed to represent the point at which the HW sun crosses the horizon, but, because of a issue of scale, this is not actually true. The HW sun crests the horizon a bit "up" towards the outer world.
A better definition for what "True 90" is this: Anyplace where if two people are 180 degrees removed longitudinally, then they are directly overhead* of one another. [* by surface]
According to the measurements in the PWAs, the polar openings can only be a maximum of a couple of hundred miles in size at their smallest point.
That's right. The map representation makes it look rather large, much larger than it actually is. There are a host of issues about these openings that make the simple rotation problem seem trivial.
As for Blackmoor's location, I like what Havard has done with his maps the best. It also looks like it would end up close to the north pole after the shift as well; not dead on but close enough.
Yeah, the actual differences between say Havard's treatment and my own are actually small enough to smooth over. The difference between the northern shore of Skothar and the frozen islands north of that.
I think the larger issue of the HW pre-GRoF map is that I'm balancing what the artist was trying to convey (rough measure of tilt, general location of Blackmoor) against the actual technique used in producing the map that appeared (simple rotation and ignoring what "fell off" the grid) and also the pre-HW description of the past.
I have no ideas for explaining the Comeback Inn, other than this: it was inexorably tied to what we also know as the Nexus (CM6), and like Dr. Who's TARDIS, the Nexus appears at various points in time and space, governed by the will of the Immortals, and assuming different guises (cottage, the Comeback Inn, a funny blue police box :P ) to take heroes to places where they need to go. The poor Comeback Inn version wound up in a places with no heroes and had to wait a few thousand years.
On the NoS: my fix is that, while part of the Beagle, it was not part of the crashed ship that found its way to Blackmoor. It was some engine component (perhaps the warp coil) that was jettisoned during entry.
-OldDawg
Yeah, the actual differences between say Havard's treatment and my own are actually small enough to smooth over. The difference between the northern shore of Skothar and the frozen islands north of that.
Okay, now Im listening!
On the NoS: my fix is that, while part of the Beagle, it was not part of the crashed ship that found its way to Blackmoor. It was some engine component (perhaps the warp coil) that was jettisoned during entry.
Hey that might actually work...!
It doesnt fit 100% with Rheddrian's story, though while I always assumed he sort of created the NoS when he was fiddling with the Beagle's reactor, he could just have set off the reaction that trapped his spirit within the Mirror Shield. The fact that a dragon later found it and brought it to the Known World is just a coincidence...
Havard
It doesnt fit 100% with Rheddrian's story, though while I always assumed he sort of created the NoS when he was fiddling with the Beagle's reactor, he could just have set off the reaction that trapped his spirit within the Mirror Shield.
It doesn't quite fit with the WotI depiction of it, where there is a lot more attached to it than just being an engine component. There are robots and computers that reroute its functions. Unless it was somehow the entire engine room! "Captain... we've got a wee problem here!"
The fact that a dragon later found it and brought it to the Known World is just a coincidence...
Hm... you've just sparked another thought in my tiny little head. The mention of a dragon bringing something to the Known World sort of goes along with the story of Dragotha in the Age of Worms AP. Wonder if that could be made to fit together at all.
It doesn't quite fit with the WotI depiction of it, where there is a lot more attached to it than just being an engine component. There are robots and computers that reroute its functions. Unless it was somehow the entire engine room! "Captain... we've got a wee problem here!"
Lol!
It could even have been a scout ship from the Beagle? That would explain why there are two distinctly separate locations. And why Riesling & Co are never mentioned in WotI.
Hm... you've just sparked another thought in my tiny little head. The mention of a dragon bringing something to the Known World sort of goes along with the story of Dragotha in the Age of Worms AP. Wonder if that could be made to fit together at all.
I never really got into AoW. What do you have in mind?
Havard