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| #1zombiegleemaxJan 27, 2007 21:13:39 | I'm trying to think of the exact demographics of the city states and i am using the reference that Borys would ask for 1,000 slaves each year from each citystate. This makes me think that due to Athas's high death rate and large slave population and made me begin to think. Exactly how many people would be in a citystate so that this high death rate and birthrate were able to atleast produce 1000 slaves for harvest every year. |
| #2phaaf_glienJan 27, 2007 21:40:51 | good thread... post more of your thoughts... |
| #3netherekJan 27, 2007 22:26:53 | It's a combination of many factors, high birthrate, capturing slaves from outlying regions, high population within city, etc. etc... |
| #4dirk00001Jan 28, 2007 22:11:27 | There was a short-lived version of this topic awhile back: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=634215 Based on my somewhat loose logic and iffy mathematics, I figure that the WC's listed city-state populations are about 1/5th the total number of individuals that actually keep the city running, with the rest located outside of the city's walls. HOWEVER: Since that time I noticed that on the quick reference card for Gulg, found in The Ivory Triangle, it states: Population: 13,500 (race: *snip* ... class: 34% slaves, 26% judaga soldiers, 7% templars, 5% hunter nobles, 16% freemen, 4% foreigners and visiting merchants, 8% miscellaneous). Soooo...if that's the case, then my theory that the WC's population count doesn't include slaves goes out the window, and it also suggests that my idea that the numbers only represent those inside the city walls is wrong...so I'm sort of back to square one. Simple math shows that the listed population couldn't at all support the levy, at least not without an outrageous population growth percentage; even at a high 1%, Gulg would have a slave population growth under 50/year, and no matter how high (and highly unlikely) you want to make that percentage you're never going to come anywhere near the 1000 slaves needed each year. Realistically speaking, you'd need a pool of at least 100,000 breeding individuals, per city state, per year, from which to draw a 1000-individual levy. If Gulg truly only has 15,500 people, then they have to have access to around 7 times their cities' entire population in order to fuel their yearly levy...which is just insane for a planet where the wilderness is known to be especially deadly and even the large Sky Singer elven tribe only has 3500 members. Despite having a pretty clear-cut case of city-state population counts representing both freemen as well as slaves, I'm still inclined to believe that it's an "abstract" number of some sort, leaving out some unaccounted-for population that is directly tied to each of the city-states well-being. On that other thread Sage suggested that children probably aren't counted, which sounds reasonable to me and adds a few bodies, but that's still not enough to fuel the levy. Thanks to the super-small 'quick reply' input box on the forums here, I can only see a couple lines of what I've just written and am too lazy to scroll up and re-read the whole thing. So, assuming it all makes some sort of sense, what sort of answers does everyone have to this/these/those conundrums? :P |
| #5ruhl-than_sageJan 29, 2007 17:39:26 | I don't think this is something that the game designers really thought out properly. I would have to say that you need to infate the numbers somewhat to manage these figures. The population of the tablelands is supposedly on the decline, but at the currently listed figures that decline would be so sharp that the entire tablelands would be depopulated in 100 years or less. One interpreation is of course as I mentioned before, that slaves are either not counted or only counted as factional people (this happened in the US before the civil war where a slave was counted as 2/3rds of a person in the census.), and children are not counted until a certain age. Another is that the City-States have a lot more and more populous client villages then the maps would suggest. Perhaps Tyr only has X number of people, but the valley and nearby valleys contain a number of client villages containing many more thousands of people. The third: because all the SKs are aware of this levy and it's demands they have instituted extremely rigorous breeding programs for their slaves to supply the numbers necessary for the levy. Personaly I would go with a combination of all three to explain the discrepency. |
| #6zombiegleemaxJan 30, 2007 0:21:25 | On Earth, desert nations cannot exist without the trade of non-desert regions. Also, there are two many life forms (humans, animals) for the Tyr region to be able to support. Compare Egypt to the Sahara. Egypt became a great nation because it had a large river to support it's water needs. Nothing much happened in the Sahara, even though they have about the same number of oasis and verdant belts as the Tyr region. Dark Sun is mostly a concept driven game much like Star Trek is in the TV world. |
| #7cnahumckJan 30, 2007 7:45:39 | While I don't have the sources in front of me, I remember descriptions of those being led out to the desert as including animals and financial tribute. This makes me think that it is not just sentient beings, but also livestock. If we go with the concept that it is 1000 HD of creatures per city, using livestock could make it so that this number could be reached and still maintain a population. |
| #8lurking_shadowJan 30, 2007 11:55:42 | So, assuming it all makes some sort of sense, what sort of answers does everyone have to this/these/those conundrums? :P I don't think this is something that the game designers really thought out properly. Sage pretty much already said what I think... In my home campaign, the Levy must be paid only every seven years, i.e, it's a rotation system. Tyr pays it one year, Urik pays it the following year, then Balic, etc. That makes the numbers much more manageable: just one seventh of the population loss. It also affects the setting in subtle ways, which allows for some interesting role-playing possibilities. |
| #9zombiegleemaxJan 30, 2007 14:23:16 | A quick thought that spreads back into a movie i just recently watched - Dune. Perhaps i am crazy, but perhaps the halflings came from someplace else and resided on athas for something. This led to a population boom. Causing the yada yada, cleansing wars, all of this. Then bam we are left with the depleted world of Athas. That is just and idea though. + i thought dune was pretty schweet. As stated how Egypt was once a powerful nation because of the river, IIRC from the original boxed set (which i'm reading as we speak to become more familiar with the older setting to play with my group) said that many of the riverbeds have been dried up, not seeing water in a long time. The sarah seems to have always been a desert in comparison to the Tablelands which was once the cradle of civilization much like the middle east. Looking at the statistics of some areas much like the Gazaa Strip and Iraq, they have some of the highest population growth in the world. Those areas are almost always turbulent and have major conflicts going on a lot of the time. This only leads me to think that 4-3 percent population growth is not out of the question. Additionally to this theory that the Tyr region was once lush and beautiful as well as densly populated (hinted at through ruins) is that this world was stripped of what it once had. Now to quote Paizo "the bad guys have won, now they are just squabbling over the last bits of it." Paraphrasing of course. As stated by dirk, 13000 is much much too small to actually be even considered the population. Perhaps his estimate of 1/5 of the population or other mention of slaves only counting as part is possible. If the population growth for this area is only 2%, the population of glug as a whole would be 65000 give or take a few considering the situation of the slave idea or what not. Additionally, you could say that population growth of 3 or 4 is much too high because of the death rate in athas, thus 2 or 1.5 would be very very well in the ranges. With 1.5, glug would only have a popualtion increase of only 975 citizens. Additionally stated, in medieval demographics made easy, 2.2 of the human population is supplemented by livestock. This would make the nomadic herders and herders of the area much more important in addition to the large population. Continuing on my ramble, 22750 would be the total slave population if Glug had 35% of slaves. With rigorous breeding programs 4% or even higher would be acceptable, placing the slave population growht at 910. Additionally, the people whom do not pay their debt or are convicted by the templars are shoved into the ranks of slaves, making this draw from the general population grwoth of the region. That is just a theory, but hopefully a good one. The stating that 35% of the population in glug is slaves also helps with the placing of people by social class. Thanks for all of the help, shall shove more ideas out as well as an expanded list when i am not in my bed with the flu. |
| #10dirk00001Jan 30, 2007 15:38:52 | A quick thought that spreads back into a movie i just recently watched - Dune. Perhaps i am crazy, but perhaps the halflings came from someplace else and resided on athas for something. This led to a population boom. Causing the yada yada, cleansing wars, all of this. Then bam we are left with the depleted world of Athas. That is just and idea though. + i thought dune was pretty schweet.[/qupte] |
| #11zombiegleemaxJan 30, 2007 16:10:45 | lol, truthfully, have not read all of it, but i am attempting to remedy that. |
| #12zombiegleemaxJan 31, 2007 19:31:43 | I feel that the populations listed must be near the population for an entire city state, not just the city proper. Looking at the maps, I can see that each city-state tends to control a verdant belt, and usable scrub land averaging about 100 square miles total (though a few have more). During the middle ages on earth, a square mile of developed land was able to support around 200 people. Athas would probably be similar. On one hand, food can be grown all year round, most labor is performed by slaves on near starvation rations, and agriculture on Athas is highly organized, not to mention pragmatic. On the other hand, the climate is very arrid and the tools tend to be poor. I figure these nearly balance out so that a square mile of developed land (and all land that can possibly be developed, is) will support a max of around 200-250 athasians. This would make it very difficult for the total populations of athasian city-states to exceed the offical numbers. Still, I think it is perfectly possible for the city-states to offer 1,000 slaves per year to the Dragon. Athas, though more extreme than nearly any place on earth, is not all that desolate. This is a magical world, and life has adapted/evolved unnaturally quickly to the current environment. Even if we assume a meager population of only about 8-10 sentient beings per square mile, that is still well over 500,000 such beings in the tyr region. A 1.5% overall population growth would be more than sufficient to maintain a stable population after subtracting the Dragon's levy. "other people" in that figure doesn't make a lot of sense to me - it'd work for the other city-states, where you can fairly easily delineate between "city folk" and "rural folk," but in gulg they're one in the same. I've never had any trouble with this. The "city folk" of Gulg are those who reside within the city's mopti wall, the "rural folk" are those who who reside outside of it. Also, just because the environment is superfically similar, does not mean there is not a great deal of distinction between Gulg's urban and rural populations. |
| #13ruhl-than_sageJan 31, 2007 19:44:44 | During the middle ages on earth, a square mile of developed land was able to support around 200 people. Athas would probably be similar. On one hand, food can be grown all year round, most labor is performed by slaves on near starvation rations, and agriculture on Athas is highly organized, not to mention pragmatic. On the other hand, the climate is very arrid and the tools tend to be poor. I figure these nearly balance out so that a square mile of developed land (and all land that can possibly be developed, is) will support a max of around 200-250 athasians. This would make it very difficult for the total populations of athasian city-states to exceed the offical numbers. You need to take magic into account here though. Earth and Water Clerics as well as Druids could increase yeilds dramatically. Still, I think it is perfectly possible for the city-states to offer 1,000 slaves per year to the Dragon. There are a couple of possible issues with that. 1st many of the "people" living in the desert are in fact Gith, Belgoi, Tareks, Thri-kreen, Trin, etc. Do we have a definition of what makes for a suitible slave for the levy? 2nd the numbers who die from warfare and the dangers of the desert are going to be extremely high for those living outside of larger communities. Finally, the process of rounding up slaves from the desert could incrue a huge death toll of it's own. Consider the number of slaves that died in transport over the atlantic. |
| #14zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2007 0:28:03 | Druids tend to not work to increase the yields of sorcerer kings' crops and neither clerics, nor druids, exist in the numbers needed (at least in my games) to really make a noticeable difference. However, one thing I did overlook are templars. There may indeed be enough templars to make an appreciable difference. I'm assuming many of the slaves making up the Levies are Gith, Belgoi, Tareks, Thri-kreen, Trin, etc. Anything capable of doing enough work to make feeding it worth while is an acceptable slave. The small portion of human slaves would likely have been added to Ur Draxa's slave population, and the vast majority of the rest drained. The growth/death rate outside of the slave taking/levy is not pertinent. I'm assuming that, overall, Tyr region population is stable, for whatever reason. As for the death toll during slave taking itself, it certainly would have been high, but I highly doubt it would be comparable to the death tolls of Atlantic crossing slave ships during the hight of the american slave trade (which were still 'only' 30%, most caused by disentery and scurvy). On Athas, there would not have been an unlimited supply of slaves, nor a need to pack hundreds of them into very confined spaces for months on end. Templars would likely supress any contagious disease in their captives, and things like scurvy take a very long time to be fatal. I doubt the fatality rate of city owned slaves durning transport was more than 5-10%. More would likely die while resisting capture. Considering what is at stake (the Dragon's anger in the short term and the possible weakening of Rajaat's prison in the long term), the Sorcerer Kings are going to do whatever is required to have the avaliable slaves on hand when the Dragon comes. Edit: Look at the maps again and reading through "The Ivory Triangle", it appears that many of the city-states have more usable land than I had first thought, not enough generally for 3-5 times the listed population to exist outside of the city walls, but certainly enough for another 50-200%, depending on the city. |
| #15ruhl-than_sageFeb 01, 2007 12:30:39 | Druids tend to not work to increase the yields of sorcerer kings' crops and neither clerics, nor druids, exist in the numbers needed (at least in my games) to really make a noticeable difference. However, one thing I did overlook are templars. There may indeed be enough templars to make an appreciable difference. I suppose the effect of Clerics and Druids on populations would be much more pronounced outside of the City-States. I'm assuming many of the slaves making up the Levies are Gith, Belgoi, Tareks, Thri-kreen, Trin, etc. Anything capable of doing enough work to make feeding it worth while is an acceptable slave. The small portion of human slaves would likely have been added to Ur Draxa's slave population, and the vast majority of the rest drained. Assuming that you can get them to actually work. I would imagine that a lot of the slaves would have to be rounded up at the last minute as they might be difficult to control and keep alive. Psionics helps considerably, but still It would be quite hard to get a ganag of Belgoi, Trin, Thri-kreen and Gith to work and not kill eachother. A lot of those types of slaves would probably end up fighting in the arena for entertainment as they would make poor laborers. This would of course lead to many more deaths reducing their numbers come levy time. One upside of being able to include these sorts of creatures in the levy would be the potentially much faster breeding rates however. For instance one Kreen or Trin could lay an entire clutch of eggs (I don't remember the exact numbers) which would mature within 6 years of hatching. The growth/death rate outside of the slave taking/levy is not pertinent. I'm assuming that, overall, Tyr region population is stable, for whatever reason. Their would be a death toll on both the side of the slaves and the slavers in the fights that ensued during the capture of the slave. Additionally I think it is inappropriate to assume that all or even most of the slave taking is preformed with the direct supervision of Templars. They have many other matters to attend to in the defence and administration of their cities. Most slaver groups would probably be private organizations (remember the slave trade has a much larger scope then the raising of the levy) either as a part of a trade consortium, a minor mechant house in their own right, or employed by one of the major merchant houses. Of course any slaver's interest is in taking as many slaves as possbile and transporting them with as few of causualities as possible. However they want the slaves that can be sold for the highest value, and they want to spend as little money on their venture as possible as well. They could very well either kill all those that they deem unfit for sale or transport, or allow the desert to sort them out for free. Water and food would be quite limited on a long trek through the desert and many casualties would likely accrue in most slaving operations. Even if they left the extras in the desert, with reduced numbers and probably the stronger ones being taken the survivors would have much reduced chances of surviving the perils of the desert especially if they have nearby enemies or many of their best hunters are taken. Considering what is at stake (the Dragon's anger in the short term and the possible weakening of Rajaat's prison in the long term), the Sorcerer Kings are going to do whatever is required to have the avaliable slaves on hand when the Dragon comes. I agree with you 100% on this, but there are limitations to the reach of even the SK's authority. If they were allied with one another, perhaps they could control the tablelands more completely, but with petty power struggles, eons of mistrust, and a host of enemies nipping at their heels, they cannot oversee every aspect of life and death in the region. If an SK needs to round up some extra slaves because of a fast approaching levy, they would surely employ the forces necessary to do so. But, that doesn't mean that they only get their slaves through the efforts of their Templars. |
| #16zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2007 12:56:01 | Oh I completely agree that the Templars and the King's armies are not going to be doing the majority of the slave taking, but will still have a very significant impact. Most slaves, even for the levy, are probably bought from merchant houses or freelance slavers. Still, the system that works best will be what is used, in the vast majority of cases. |
| #17zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2007 14:57:28 | Gathering slaves would be down by third parties such as slave traders who go into the desert to find slaves. (Apocalypo anyone?) Given the rate of urbanization, that is, the percentage of the population that lives in a city verses rural, which is usually 10% to 20% that live in the city, so, if a city-state has, say, a population of 10,000, there should be at least 100,000 people living in the regions outside of the city. |
| #18dirk00001Feb 01, 2007 15:37:01 | Gathering slaves would be down by third parties such as slave traders who go into the desert to find slaves. (Apocalypo anyone?) ...which is somewhat how I view things; it removed the necessity of all this "what sort of slaves count" issue. In reponse to oralpain's numbers, even with a 200/Sq. mile "support ratio" I still come up with enough land, in most cases, to support many times the number of individuals listed as living in each city-state. Take, for instance, Balic (my favorite Athasian city-state, so the one I know most about): Counting both the verdant belt as well as the scrublands nearby, as measured on the map from the revised setting (the first for growing crops on, the latter for raising livestock), I come up with an area of ~250 square miles (20 miles north to south at the widest point, 25 miles east to west, and since it's pretty much triangular you can multiply those numbers by each other and divide by 2 to get the total area). At 200 people/sq. mi. that's 50,000 supportable lives, or 62.5k if you go with a 250/sq. mi. figure. That jives with what oralpain calculates, approximately 2x the listed city population, so that's a good start. In the case of Balic, you've also got another ~200 square miles of stony barrens, which can support a decent number of herd animals assuming they are fed additional foodstuffs brought in from other parts of athas or from the verdant areas closer to Balic - although this isn't prime terrain, IIRC there are several species of "herd animals" including kanks and I think erdlus that are listed (...somewhere) as being sustainable in this terrain. If we go with a 50-100/sq. mi. area supportable population count for this, that's another 10k-20k, giving us somewher around 80k supportable by Balic's population. Since we've got that possibility, a population of 35k listed for the city itself, and yet hundreds of square miles of rural terrain to support it, I think we should at least consider that there's 45k or so individuals ("PC races") living in the areas around the city, raising crops and livestock to support the city-slickers. Even with a pool of 80k people, a 1-2% population growth is more than enough to supply the levy and keep the city's population stable. And remember, population growth numbers count births *and* death rates, as based on the region, point in history, etc., so 1-2% is quite do-able on Athas (as those numbers fit with historical earth numbers). I think we're just going around in circles now - it sounds to me like we're all generally in agreement that, whether or not you consider the population counts for the city-states to be both urban + rural or just urban, there's still enough room to shove 2x or more their number in the surrounding areas, which gives a large enough pool that, when you add in slaves brought in from all over wild, wild athas, is more than enough to keep population levels stable, provide enough food for the city-states, and still have slaves to spare for the levy. In the end I think we're just fighting over semantics - those living "near" a city-state could be considered "citizens" or "neighbors" depending on how you look at it, but in the end they're still likely going to be more tightly concentrated than elsewhere on Athas. City-states are the roots of athasian civilization, after all. |
| #19zombiegleemaxFeb 01, 2007 22:23:38 | This could be helpful. http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/ |
| #20ruhl-than_sageFeb 03, 2007 17:34:22 | I think we're just going around in circles now - it sounds to me like we're all generally in agreement that, whether or not you consider the population counts for the city-states to be both urban + rural or just urban, there's still enough room to shove 2x or more their number in the surrounding areas, which gives a large enough pool that, when you add in slaves brought in from all over wild, wild athas, is more than enough to keep population levels stable, provide enough food for the city-states, and still have slaves to spare for the levy. In the end I think we're just fighting over semantics - those living "near" a city-state could be considered "citizens" or "neighbors" depending on how you look at it, but in the end they're still likely going to be more tightly concentrated than elsewhere on Athas. City-states are the roots of athasian civilization, after all. Well, I'm personally interested in exploring the various related aspects in detail so I can come to a greater understanding of the slave economics, population density, birth/death rates, and all the other things that relate to the Dragon's levy. I would look at this more as a discussion of the finer points then an argument about any basic premise. |
| #21ruhl-than_sageFeb 03, 2007 17:37:38 | Gathering slaves would be down by third parties such as slave traders who go into the desert to find slaves. (Apocalypo anyone?) I find it likely that the rate of urbanization (as you call it) is much higher in the Tyr region due to the severe dangers of the desert and the centralized pockets fertile soil and water supplies. Personally a figure like 40-60% sounds more reasonable to me. |
| #22dirk00001Feb 04, 2007 15:57:10 | Well, I'm personally interested in exploring the various related aspects in detail so I can come to a greater understanding of the slave economics, population density, birth/death rates, and all the other things that relate to the Dragon's levy. I would look at this more as a discussion of the finer points then an argument about any basic premise. I was really just relating to the specific posts regarding population in-city versus "immediate vicinity," not the discussion as-a-whole. In a nutshell, I think we've got pretty good data to indicate that the populations of the city-states, as listed in the WC (or elsewhere), are around 1/2 of what the Tyr region maps would indicate could be supported...that figure varying up and down, of course, for each city-state. Given that, as far as this part of the discussion goes, I think the posters to this thread are in general agreement that there are "rural peoples" - defined in various different ways - that live in the areas immediately around each city-state, and should be considered when figuring out overall populations, etc. I find it likely that the rate of urbanization (as you call it) is much higher in the Tyr region due to the severe dangers of the desert and the centralized pockets fertile soil and water supplies. Personally a figure like 40-60% sounds more reasonable to me. I think that number is more appropriate as well, especially since it fits in with the other data (above and in previous posts) we've discussed. |
| #23zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 1:28:16 | I find it likely that the rate of urbanization (as you call it) is much higher in the Tyr region due to the severe dangers of the desert and the centralized pockets fertile soil and water supplies. Personally a figure like 40-60% sounds more reasonable to me. I agree with this. The Doomsday demographics was based off of a population that had unlimited living spaces. In Dark Sun, humanity must cluster around a region in which they can live. Urbanization will be high, however, you under estimate the ability of the Ringing Moutains to support people. Elevation means the collection of water. Transhumance, the movement of herds and well as a constant source of water, the Ringing Mountains may have as many people living in them as a quarter of the population of the Tyr Region. |
| #24ZardnaarFeb 05, 2007 7:35:46 | Alot of things in DS don't make sense. Virtually nothing should grow on Athas if its temperature is 110-140 degrees every day. I read somewhere though the entire Tyr region in the original boxed set had a population of around 1000000 beings. |
| #25zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 9:00:35 | There are places on earth with temperatures well in excess of 110F, many of which have a good deal of plant life. Even an area on the real world that had daily highs of 130F would have plenty of plant life if it had any water at all. Given an accelerated process of natural selection, Athasian ecology is rather plausible. Take a look at Death Valley, in California. It's probably the most typically "Athasian" locale on earth. Average summer highs are 116F, temperatures of 120-125 are quite common, and it gets well past 130 degrees at times. There is only 2 inches of precipitation per year. Death Valley still has a great deal of life. Native americans have inhabited the area for over 1,000 years. It's not much of a stretch to have comparable climate support life in a fantasy world such as Athas. I don't recall any offical source stating the total population of the Tyr region, but 1,000,000 intelegent beings seems like a good estimate. |
| #26zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 11:33:54 | Actually, the temperature is 120F to near freezing at night. This is not really possible, unless Athas has a thinner atmosphere than Earth's. Most deserts on Earth have seasons. Death Valley has a winter time in which, at night, the temperature drops below freezing. Maybe the highs are around 50F. A few years ago, Death Valley flooded and there was a lake there. |
| #27zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 11:48:49 | I would say that the world of Athas is a very unnatural place. I don't think you could logically say that "plant life should not exist" or "people shouldn't be able to survive" because of various factors added to the equation. To put it into a little bit more perspective, how many creatures on earth have psionic capabilities? How many humans? Then, how many grasses, cacti, or giant lizards that are bigger than elephants walking around or even Braxat? It is a fantasy setting. It has developed differently because of factors that we don't have in our world. I would bet it is safe to assume that the atmosphere is thinner than earths due to magical manipulation. There is a giant body of silt which used to be water and a massive plain of obsidian. I would be willing to bet that it is possible that it is possible that the atmosphere was reduced. Additionally, I don't think it is fair to say that "just because earth doesn't have this athas can't have it" or that it "cannot exist". Another thing to take into perspective. There is a giant red sun...? |
| #28ruhl-than_sageFeb 05, 2007 13:04:28 | I agree with this. Sure, if you want to run it that way. Personally I see the Ringing Mountains as being so full of monsters and so inhospitable that only select valleys that are sufficiently defensible can support communities. In my campaign most of Tyr client villages are in foothills and valleys of the Ringing Mountains, but they don't amount to anywhere near the population figures you mention. |
| #29dirk00001Feb 05, 2007 13:53:43 | Sure, if you want to run it that way. Personally I see the Ringing Mountains as being so full of monsters and so inhospitable that only select valleys that are sufficiently defensible can support communities. In my campaign most of Tyr client villages are in foothills and valleys of the Ringing Mountains, but they don't amount to anywhere near the population figures you mention. And, in the end, Athas is a planet dominated by predators - there's very little in the way of "prey" that doesn't itself prey on something else. Forests, being easy places to live in, would just be full of even more things-that-eat-other-things, so wouldn't be any more capable of supporting humanoid life than elsewhere. Even earth has many examples of this: The Amazon is full of life, but very little of it is human as it's an extremely deadly place and humanity is a little too long-lived and "vulnerable" of a species to survive in large numbers there. And yet the middle east, as hot, arid and deserted as it is, has an abundant supply of people raising crops and livestock on land that, in many cases, is barely able to sustain them. |
| #30zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 16:10:09 | Some of the best preadators on Athas are humans and demihumans. The best preadators on Athas are sorcerer kings. No matter that area, if it came to the attention of humans and their rulers, and was deemed useful enough to commit significant resources to...well, such lands could easily become inhospitable, for the "monsters". Actually, the temperature is 120F to near freezing at night. This is not really possible, unless Athas has a thinner atmosphere than Earth's. Athas doesn't really have much in the way of seasons. I was thinking of summer when compairing sections of Athas to death Valley. Concerning temperature differentials, there are parts of earth (the central Sahara) that have a 100+ degree difference between night time lows and daytime highs, during the same 24 hour period. In this way Death Valley is not such a good comparison, as Death Valley is below sea level, and therefore has much denser air over it, and probably more humidity, at least during the winter. The tablelands and hinterlands of Athas are a giant plateau, most of it, esp the farther east you go. Even if Athas has a similar atmosphere to Earth, a place at 4,000+ feet elevation is going to have far less of that atmosphere over it than an area that is a few hundred feet below sea level. The atmosphere of Athas does not have to be any thinner than earth for the surface temperatures of the Tyr region to vary from 140F during the day to 30-40F at night. Obviously, magic can make anything possible, but even without much in the way of fantastic or magical considerations, the climate of Athas is within the realm of plausibility. The Amazon is full of life, but very little of it is human as it's an extremely deadly place and humanity is a little too long-lived and "vulnerable" of a species to survive in large numbers there. And yet the middle east, as hot, arid and deserted as it is, has an abundant supply of people raising crops and livestock on land that, in many cases, is barely able to sustain them. This has less to do with the dangers of the rain forest and more to do with trade and geography. |
| #31ZardnaarFeb 05, 2007 16:13:27 | The middle east has rivers and fertile coastal strips. Also they have resources they can trade for food imports. Athas doesn't really have these options. Is the Sahara hotter than Athas? Always wondered about the levy as well as Athas has always been portrayed as difficult to survive. I would think the levy would be slowly depopulating the Tyr region. |
| #32ruhl-than_sageFeb 05, 2007 16:17:33 | I would think the levy would be slowly depopulating the Tyr region. According to cannon, the Tyr region is being slowly depopulated, partially due to the levy. But, more significantly do to continued defiling. The destruction of Kalidney and .... that former City-State near Urik are the most severe incidences of depopulation in recent history. |
| #33zombiegleemaxFeb 05, 2007 20:55:54 | I was reading through the Will and the Way to boost my DS knowledge base, and I came across the divisions of social class and who would learn psionics. I read that nobles had the highest percentage of psionic tutelage, making them the most likely candidates to be psionicists if it was not for their focus on intrigue and decadance, they would easily dominate over society. Then I read about how members of the merchant houses were driven and often had the same opprotunities for psionic education. Additionally they were driven to succeed because they needed always to have an edge to stay up on top. I also read that while most people have atleast some glimmer of psionic talent (as it seems to have been translated to 3e or some fluff that EVERYONE has some psionic talent) that only 1 in 100 has what it takes to be a mindbender. This makes me wander what is the comparison between social class and psionics as well as the general population. For glug's 13000 supposed people 34% slaves, 26% judaga soldiers, 7% templars, 5% Hunter Nobles, 16% freemen, 4% foreigners and visiting merchants, 8% miscellaneous I would assume that the hunter nobles, the Templars, the Judaga have the best chances of being psionically trained. That is just an idea however. Maybe would could try to divide up populations like the writers have done for glug for all of the city states? |
| #34nomadiccFeb 07, 2007 19:23:12 | More directed towards the Levy topic than the demographics one... Consider the suppression required to keep the disappearance of 1000 sentients secret, when that amount could be from 1-5%, depending on the city. Hard to miss it when 1 out of 20 or 30 suddenly go missing. Even if they are primarily slaves, owners are not ALL going to be in on the Levy, especially if it is as secret as its supposed to be. I always thought the number was too high (1000 from each city every year) given the population stats in the WC. I'd love to hear Troy Denning's words on this topic - whether it got goofed of if he had something in mind. |
| #35ruhl-than_sageFeb 07, 2007 20:25:06 | Consider the suppression required to keep the disappearance of 1000 sentients secret, when that amount could be from 1-5%, depending on the city. Is it supposed to be a secret? I've never run it that way. The Purpose of the Levy, now that's certainly a secret. |
| #36nomadiccFeb 07, 2007 20:35:40 | Is it supposed to be a secret? I've never run it that way. The Purpose of the Levy, now that's certainly a secret. Hmmm... I guess the way I read it in the novels was that it was kept very secret. i.e., Rikus and Sadira had no idea about the levy. Tithian obviously knew, but I wonder if he got the info from Sacha/Wyan or if he knew previously when he was a templar. Its been a few years, so I'd have to re-read the PP to check the context. |
| #37ruhl-than_sageFeb 07, 2007 22:26:10 | Hmmm... I guess the way I read it in the novels was that it was kept very secret. i.e., Rikus and Sadira had no idea about the levy. Tithian obviously knew, but I wonder if he got the info from Sacha/Wyan or if he knew previously when he was a templar. Yah, you're right about that. I remember that part. Well, with all the slaves being killed in the arena and sold to other locales it's not that big of a surprise that it could be kept fairly quiet. You do have to remember though that Rikus and Sadira weren't the best informed individuals, being slaves themselves. |
| #38nomadiccFeb 08, 2007 18:05:08 | I agree that it would be easy enough to explain away the deaths of several slaves... not many are going to dare to question a templar's word on the matter. However, when the lives lost is close to 5% of the total population, there's no way that many people can just slip away, at the same time, without most folks noticing something... especially if it happens every year about the same time. Not so difficult to lose a thousand people in a million, but a thousand out of 15 thousand? Even assuming the templarate and nobility were "in on it", the common folk would have to notice that kind of loss... even in Athas's harsh environment. |
| #39dirk00001Feb 09, 2007 9:42:19 | One thing to note is that Tithian was able to pay the levy for several years, completely through the capture of slaves by raiding parts sent throughout the wastelands, before he was caught by Rikus and the rest. Something I just thought of that's worth noting since this seems to indicate that there are a lot more humanoids living throughout the wastes than you'd initially assume; perhaps there are many more nomadic peoples populating the wastelands than one might initially assume? |
| #40redkingFeb 11, 2007 9:30:38 | The population figures provided in the Dark Sun accessories are all wrong. For example, in the Veiled Alliance accessory, the city of Tyr's population is put at 12,000. That cannot be right. The novels themselves (not to mention the accessories) establish that Athasian city life is quite complex. Not only is the enough people to support different classes/castes, but there are also various government departments, and an economic system that actually seems to support wide spread trade. These things are indicators of a much larger population. A population of 12,000 could not support such a complex society. I would say that at a minimum the population needs to be at least ten times the size of the published figures to support the Athasian societies the way they are described. For example, the Dragon Kings accessory describes sorcerer king armies comprising of thousands of men. It is simply impossible for the published city populations to support those numbers. I do not really know what the writers were thinking when they put those numbers to paper, but we should ignore them. The spirit and tone of Dark Sun would be totally changed if those population numbers are accepted. |
| #41nomadiccFeb 11, 2007 10:51:43 | I agree... and did 15 years ago when I first saw the material. The amount of death caused by Kalak's attempt at Dragonhood, followed by the Urik campaign would have nearly wiped out the 12000 Tyrian citizens. I always thought that number was low, even with DS's dwindling population. That being said... In comparison to medieval and ancient cities, the numbers hold up well, but "back when" 95% of the population lived in the country... farming, etc. Now, since Athas doesn't have a whole ton of quality farming real estate, a city of 100K would require a significant agricultural territory... hence why Nibenay is one of the largest cities. I don't know... just rambling here. I wonder if Tim/Troy had some reasoning behind their numbers, or if it was fairly random... |
| #42ruhl-than_sageFeb 11, 2007 12:47:06 | While I don't dispute the necessity for numbers like that to account for the size of the armies and other factors, then you have another problem. The scale of the setting is simply too small to support those numbers. If you take a look at your map of the Tyr Region you'll notice that the city-states are mostly within 20-40 mile of eachother. The Tyr region as a whole is about the size of Colorado. If the numbers needed are 10 times the listed numbers in the Campaign Setting then we've got a serious problem because that means that there are somewhere around 1 million people living in the city-states and their client villages. This number is obviously too high for the scale of the setting. Of course there are a lot of other issues with the scale of the setting as well, in terms of supposed isolation of the city-states and difficulty of travel across the wastes. An Elf could run from Gulg to Nibenay in about an hour!! So it appears that not only do the population figures have to be considerably inflated to deal with the scope of things that happen (or have happened) in the setting, but the scale of the setting has to be increased as well. Personally I've alreay been running the setting at an increased scale because it was just too easy to get from one place to the next. The scale needs to least be double if not tripled or quadrupled. |
| #43ZardnaarFeb 11, 2007 15:18:31 | I loved the examples they gave in the original books. A week from Urik to Tyr? I think my PCs made it in 2 days. Its hard to die of starvation/thirst in the wastes when the nearest city/town is only a days travel away. |
| #44nomadiccFeb 11, 2007 21:46:42 | Exactly... I always envisioned the cities being much more isolated - kept in touch through long distance trade, but still quite far apart. Each city, with the exception of Nibenay and Gulg, rules their own independent region. Trips between cities should definately take a week or two... I don't remember the scale being that small, for some reason. |
| #45netherekFeb 12, 2007 2:18:40 | That's because it isn't, it's 180+ miles by road to Urik from Tyr. No one can walk that in 2-3 days, it'd take about a week and half with out forced march. That matches the description of the Prism Pentad as they walked the distances in many of the cases... Mounted movement changes that, but then you need the added resources and be able to keep them... |
| #46dirk00001Feb 12, 2007 10:00:48 | Given that I live in Colorado, I can safely say that you could cram 1 million people into this state, easy, while keeping it "open" enough that it'd count as a wasteland to anyone who decided to visit it. The population here is approximately 4.5 million, of which about half live in the greater Denver-metro area...which, size-wise, may be large relative to many other metro areas, but as compared to the rest of the state is but a minor speck. Up in the mountains, and especially on the plains at the western and eastern sides of the state, you can go for miles and miles without seeing a single house...let alone anything that'd be considered "civilization." And, during the heat of summer or cold of winter, I'd be caught dead (probably literally) trying to walk from one town to the next across the plains east of Denver, or better yet, across the Utah-Colorado badlands. My point being, as opposed to what Sage suggests, I think the inflated numbers fit extremely well with the geographical size, and to an extent even layout and climate, of Colorado - if anything, IMO it supports the idea of "inflated numbers" as opposed to calling them further into question. |
| #47ruhl-than_sageFeb 12, 2007 13:39:42 | Given that I live in Colorado, I can safely say that you could cram 1 million people into this state, easy, while keeping it "open" enough that it'd count as a wasteland to anyone who decided to visit it. The population here is approximately 4.5 million, of which about half live in the greater Denver-metro area...which, size-wise, may be large relative to many other metro areas, but as compared to the rest of the state is but a minor speck. Up in the mountains, and especially on the plains at the western and eastern sides of the state, you can go for miles and miles without seeing a single house...let alone anything that'd be considered "civilization." And, during the heat of summer or cold of winter, I'd be caught dead (probably literally) trying to walk from one town to the next across the plains east of Denver, or better yet, across the Utah-Colorado badlands. You have the benefit of not only modern technology, but a food supply that is almost entirely imported from out of state and a much greater supply of water that isn't used as much for growing food. |
| #48ruhl-than_sageFeb 12, 2007 13:40:19 | That's because it isn't, it's 180+ miles by road to Urik from Tyr. No one can walk that in 2-3 days, it'd take about a week and half with out forced march. That matches the description of the Prism Pentad as they walked the distances in many of the cases... Tell that to the Maps provided in the campaign settings. |
| #49netherekFeb 12, 2007 14:44:06 | That is off the map from the initial release of DS, I don't have the revised maps yet if that is what you are using. If you flip it over, and use the hexes you get 35-36 5 mile hexes by road, on the other side you have you get approximately 190 going by the scale given on the map. The scale is 30 miles to every 2 1/4 inches... The distance is definately shorter if you go straight towards Urik instead of by road just shy of 100 miles (96.67 to be correct) as it's 7 1/4 inches from Tyr to Urik overland, but then you have terrain issues, dangerous encounters and other factors to contend with... |
| #50dirk00001Feb 12, 2007 14:56:41 | You have the benefit of not only modern technology, but a food supply that is almost entirely imported from out of state and a much greater supply of water that isn't used as much for growing food. ...but we don't have the benefit of magic nor psionics which, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, would have a difficult-to-determine effect on populations and surivability on Athas. True, there's much less ariable land on Athas, but different areas of the Tyr Region have different, complementary exports, trade is brisk (and, as noted in Dune Trader, is essential for the survival of everyone in the region), and - unlike Colorado - there is a prevalence of nomadic peoples who will, obviously, be relying on foraging and hunting for both food and water. Very different setup, true, but in this case I think they're *much* to different to allow for a direct comparison, at least in the way you're doing. I was specifically commenting on the "geography" and how you could fit 1 million into Colorado, no prob, while keeping a "wasteland feel" to it. |
| #51redkingFeb 13, 2007 7:26:24 | Whatever the logistics of size and arable land, the main point is that the societies described cannot exist as described. For example, here is the description of King Hamanu's palace. Destiny’s Kingdom is Hamanu's huge fortress-palace. It measures more than a mile long on each side, and its obsidian towers climb high into Athas' sky. The palace serves as Hamanu's personal monument, his home, and the seat of his government. The huge palace contains miles of corridors and hundreds of rooms, including templar offices, troop barracks, training grounds, and more. Now that is a mighty fine palace for even a modern state with money to burn. Assuming that the palace is a rectangle or square shape, we are talking about a structure larger than the Chinese Empire's forbidden palace. The forbidden palace 720,000 square meters (appx 124 acres). Look at the amount of labor was required to make the forbidden palace. From wikipedia - The construction of the Forbidden City started in 1406 and took 14 years and an estimated 200,000 men. According to the Veiled Alliance accessory, Urik has a population of only 32,000. Given the various descriptions of Urik, this seems to be impossible. Virtually every single accessory describes the "teeming throngs" in these cities, along with various districts, quarters, and almost an infinite diversity of social classes, castes, jobs, etc. Just not possible in a city of that size. These city states are the last places where there is decent, arable land. The sorcerer kings go to great length to stop defiling, and the locations for the cities themselves were cherry picked by the kings for their extremely bountiful lands. I envisage these cities as having fairly huge populations (except for Gulg, which is described differently), which is appropriate since they are the last bastions of civilization. Anyway, the numbers given to us have to be considered errors in the context of all the other information about Athas that we have been given. |
| #52redkingFeb 13, 2007 7:28:36 | I forgot to mention that the entire population of Urik could probably live in Hamanu's palace since it has hundreds of rooms. Another reason for the impossibility of the published number of population. |
| #53dirk00001Feb 13, 2007 10:19:52 | I forgot to mention that the entire population of Urik could probably live in Hamanu's palace since it has hundreds of rooms. Another reason for the impossibility of the published number of population. To play devil's advocate, it's quite possible that the palace was constructed over a much greater length of time than the Forbidden City, and/or it was constructed before the Dragon went on a rampage (i.e. when there were more people around), and/or construction on it was begun before the Cleansing Wars even ended - after all, Hamanu was one of the Champions that finished his job, so he had "time to burn" as it were in constructing something like this. However, I'm inclined to agree with you here - no matter how you look at it, there's a major discrepancy between the numbers and the descriptions, so one or the other has to be "creatively interpreted" in order to make it all work. Based on the listed population figures for Balic, various descriptions of it found throughout the various DS sources (most of which are at least somewhat contradictory in regards to Balic, at the least, but I digress), comparisons to the maps of Nibenay and Gulg that we have, and statistics I found online for average population densities of cities during various points in history, I was hard-pressed to make Balic 1/2-mile by 1/2-mile in size. It works for me, as I (...as I keep repeating in this thread ;)) go with the idea that the listed populations are only for "urban residents" and that it doesn't count those living in the surrounding area, supplying the city with foodstuffs and such. That's my interpretation as Gulg, due to the added information we have on it from The Ivory Triangle boxed set as well as it's unique social structure, is really the only city-state (that I'm aware of, anyway), that this interpretation doesn't fit with. But I'd rather make some major adjustments to a single city-state than to have to rework all of the others. As far as Hamanu's palace is concerned, my guess is that it *is* largely empty, that it was built a long, long time ago, probably over a century or more (a little bit at a time), and that the rest of Urik sits around it. I don't have my WC handy at the moment, so maybe this idea won't fit. *shrug* Good catch, though - definitely something else noteworthy to add to this discussion. Thanks! |
| #54lurking_shadowFeb 13, 2007 11:39:00 | As far as Hamanu's palace is concerned, my guess is that it *is* largely empty, that it was built a long, long time ago, probably over a century or more (a little bit at a time), and that the rest of Urik sits around it. I don't have my WC handy at the moment, so maybe this idea won't fit. *shrug* I have no books within reach, but I recall reading that Destiny's Kingdom was built overnight through powerful magics (Psionic Enchantments). And, yes, most of it isn't occupied. The uncanny size of the palace is due to Hamanu's rather "humble" personality. Nevertheless, this is a prime example of the many instances of poetic license that were taken with the setting. |
| #55ruhl-than_sageFeb 13, 2007 12:29:41 | Another Discrepancy that crops up in regards to Destiny's Palace is that fact that the Arena in Nibenay is supposed to be the largest and oldest building in the Tyr region, but I can't think that it is larger than a square mile in size. |
| #56redkingFeb 13, 2007 16:03:26 | To play devil's advocate, it's quite possible that the palace was constructed over a much greater length of time than the Forbidden City, and/or it was constructed before the Dragon went on a rampage (i.e. when there were more people around), and/or construction on it was begun before the Cleansing Wars even ended - after all, Hamanu was one of the Champions that finished his job, so he had "time to burn" as it were in constructing something like this. I had considered that also. The palace could have been built over centuries, or built at a time when the population was much larger. I also considered that Hamanu could have used magic to make the palace. However, like you say, there is still a major discrepancy even without the palace. At the size of the cities described, the society would probably be an extended family or clan structure. Everyone would know everybody else, and most people would be related in one way or another. |
| #57lurking_shadowFeb 13, 2007 16:58:54 | To complement my earlier post:Destiny's Kingdom, called simply "Destiny" in conversation, could hold the entire city of Tyr, with room left over for Gulg. Only Raam and Draj cover more land. But the vast complex consists mainly of dry desert; the sorcerer-king's magic raised its high wall and many buildings, but his city has too few people to maintain the grounds. This demonstrates, as many features of Urik do, how Hamanu's ambition exceeds his resources. This was taken from Veiled Alliance page 77. My memory was a little off. There's no mention of it being built overnight. Somewhere in the Dragon Crown module, maybe... ? |
| #58zombiegleemaxFeb 13, 2007 17:32:32 | maybe to make it seem a little better you could increase the distance between things by 5 (allowing the area of fertile land to increase by 5 as well) and multiply the populations by 5 or even 10. 10 might be too much, but i'm just throwing numbers out. I think it should be much much harder to get from citystate to citystate. You shouldn't have to just take a few gallons of water, it should be a tough, tiring journey that makes you want to never step foot outside your citystate again unless you've got something that you want (merchants would want money and wealth and whatever else you would like to think of.) |
| #59netherekFeb 14, 2007 2:27:22 | It's not just a simple, couple day trip between City-States. Let's take the average trip distance of 60 miles, making it a three day trip at a glance. So let's add provisions for such a minor undertaking. You need at bare minimum 3 gallons of water, and since water weighs 8.33lbs per gallon without counting containment weight you have 25lbs of water to carry. Add some form of shelter to handle heat during the day, a tent is 20lbs, or optional Tarp and pole for 10lbs, if you choose not to bring your shelter you will have to double your water intake. This brings current provisions to 40+lbs of added weight, and this doesn't count food or other necessities... That 40lbs of extra weight will put many in medium load, and heavy for others. This now changes the time it takes to make the trip as many will end up travelling at a reduced rate. This will add a day to the travel time, and require even more weight to make this simple trip... No, I don't think that the scale is bad, I think the stated populations are much too low. Magic is better then tech, and in the 2e, Templars had access to the same spells as a druid barring the Elemental spheres. Combined with Agriculture, which they would have that as a department in Templar bureaucracy, they would be much more productive than what would normally be expected for such a dry world. Frankly, based of the Wanderer's Journal, I think the Slave populations are much too low in most of the stated figures, as the bulk of the Labor force, soldiers, and the like are made up of slaves. Armies rarely make up the bulk of a population, and consider that Urik sent a 10,000 man army against Tyr in the Crimson Legion, and that wasn't the bulk of Urik's forces. There is no way a City State would make well over 1/2 it's population soldiers let alone sending a 1/3 of it's population against Tyr. Add in the fact that the population of Urik has change little in the 1,000 years of Hamanu's reign and that is clearly in error as Urik lost over 1/2 the legion sent against Tyr. Urik would never have recovered from such a devestating loss unless it's population is much higher than stated. I'd guess that the population figures should be about 5 times as high... |
| #60redkingFeb 14, 2007 6:20:12 | It's not just a simple, couple day trip between City-States. Let's take the average trip distance of 60 miles, making it a three day trip at a glance. So let's add provisions for such a minor undertaking. You need at bare minimum 3 gallons of water, and since water weighs 8.33lbs per gallon without counting containment weight you have 25lbs of water to carry. Add some form of shelter to handle heat during the day, a tent is 20lbs, or optional Tarp and pole for 10lbs, if you choose not to bring your shelter you will have to double your water intake. This brings current provisions to 40+lbs of added weight, and this doesn't count food or other necessities... OK, so we have a consensus that the population figures are too low? Everyone? |
| #61dirk00001Feb 16, 2007 10:18:50 | OK, so we have a consensus that the population figures are too low? Everyone? Seems so. |
| #62nomadiccFeb 16, 2007 10:43:26 | OK, so we have a consensus that the population figures are too low? Everyone? I agree... May be worth fully discussing / polling on the boards to come up with a new "official" set of population figures for the Tyr Region. Another side-bar is the Kreen Empire numbers - i.e., how easily could they overrun the city-states through sheer weight of numbers? |
| #63ruhl-than_sageFeb 16, 2007 21:02:04 | That seems like a job for the Templarate to handle. BTW I posted a link for the inclusion of this thread in Archive for future reference. |
| #64nomadiccFeb 20, 2007 16:44:53 | Interesting find here... I have been re-reading "The Verdant Passage" and came upon a couple of tidbits that affect this discussion. On page 163, Tithian says to Kalak regarding closing the arena gates ".. It won't be an easy matter to provide food an water for fourty thousand people." Tithian echoes this on page 179, when speaking to Agis "What does he need fourty thousand people locked in a stadium for?" Later, on page 298, Rikus argues that they could rescue more Tyrian citizens outside the stadium rather than face Kalak and certain death... Also of note, in the final fights, the stadium is packed full past capacity, implying that Tyr easily has more than 40K citizens (this includes slaves). Sooo - we may be able to derive Tyr's overall population from this, though its still a guess. On a modest hack, figure about 33% of the city went to the big games... leaving some of the young, women and slaves behind, plus a good number of commoners who have no interest in the games. That would put the city somewhere around 120K! I think the original figure for Tyr's population (in the original boxed set) was 12000 or so. Perhaps they left out a decimal place? :P |
| #65redkingFeb 20, 2007 17:16:04 | Interesting find here... Brilliant find, Nomadicc! What you have offered is solid proof! |
| #66zombiegleemaxFeb 21, 2007 8:55:32 | Weren't most people required to be at the games? And weren't most farms, client vilages, and noble villas left depleted of slaves to provide a work force for the ziggurat? I feeling that the 40,000 number likely represents about half the population of the entire Tyr valley. |
| #67nomadiccFeb 21, 2007 9:03:19 | I was looking, but nowhere in TVP did it mention that citizens were required to attend the games. It even says that many left the stadium early because of the heat, drink, exhaustion. 50% still brings the city population to 80K or so... way above the boxed set figure! I think it brings us back to the question of slave-freeman ratio. Sure, many slaves were forced to attend the games to fill seats, but how many commoners attended on their own... leaving the "extra" slaves outside? |
| #68netherekFeb 21, 2007 17:19:51 | I think the #'s should be about 7 times the listed figures, with about 2x the number for surrounding client villages and farms, etc. etc. |
| #69zombiegleemaxFeb 21, 2007 22:05:02 | should the fertile land aroudn the citystates be increased or the preportions on the map be increased at all to support the increased population? |
| #70netherekFeb 22, 2007 1:18:38 | I don't think so, considering warm arid regions have at least two harvest periods provided there is adequate water supply. This seems to be the case with the city states, as put forth by both fluff and the Pentad. Considering the map I'd say that anything not listed is village or hamlet in size and therefore not note worthy... I don't remember which novel it was, I believe RaFoaDK, in which the city-states grew enough to prepare for long dry seasons that could last for a few seasons. This would give credence to why the city-states and larger villages have survived while many of the unknown/unmapped villages come and go, as it's said either drought or violence will lay claim to them. |
| #71turloughMar 29, 2009 11:35:50 | Is this the final consensus: The population numbers should be 2-5x the listed numbers to account for the non city dwellers? Also, what about the scale? I like the idea of the map being 2-3x larger to make the city states even further apart. It's like they are dim points of light in a dangerous setting. (Hey! That's a good idea for settings! Um, wait. :D ) Perhaps that's just me. turlough |