But what of the Time of Magic?
We know the Time of Magic was when Rajaat went about teaching arcane magic to the world, teaching limited preserving magic to all races, and teaching the innermost secrets of defiling magic to human disciples. Yes, this era was really just Rajaat's warming-up excercise for the Cleansing Wars, but what was it like? How did it improve the lives of the average Athasian?
Prior to the Time of Magic, Green Age Athas was a wonderland; psionics provided many ameneties we real-world humans take for granted. Suddenly, wizardry was on the scene, adding even more luxuries. Was Athas prior to the Cleansing Wars a paradise?
--was it a Netherese-style super-paradise? NB
--
NB--because this line of thinking definitely gives me ideas NB
So, in your opinion, did Athas during the tail end of the Time of Magic rival (or even exceed) Netheril, from Abeir-Toril?
--because this line of thinking definitely gives me ideas NB
I'm not that versed or familiar with FR so I can't really say.
I would say that while magic was not as advanced as it was for the netherese in Toril simply because there is different rules for magic and there are different rules for the game. In Toril in 2e, there was 10-12th lvl spells. The "weave" was different. I also believe that magic was not nearly the same height of power as it was in toril because of this reason as well. I have read that humans were the only ones taught any "real" magic while all of the other races had to be put back to a class where they learned cantrips because they weren't as "easily used" as humans.
This would lead me to believe that while psionics had a very very powerful and amazing affect on society, I would have to assume magic would only aide this. From what I have read from Dragon Kings, psionics were a very very nice thing, but 10th magic was only accessible to those skilled in both the way of psionics and magic. This would lead me to believe that it was not discovered that powerful spells that the netherese would have weren't accessible to those on athas.
I would think that this would offer another alternative to psionics. Those humans that were unable to grasp psionics would be able to work with magic. It seems to me that everybody would be able to work magic if they were able to remember the incantations while you had to be gifted to use psionics beyond the level of wild talent.
I would think that magic would add things like and undead workforce. While psionic orbs needed to be powered by some one with psionic ability, an undead could be anyone. I have also read in one of the monstrous compendiums that they used undead to help along with having a police force. Additionally, i believe that they would have used them for warfare as well.
Permanent flying vehicles and powerful magical items would surface as well. People would no longer have to do any "real work" and focus on their supernatural studies, focus on economics and intrigue. That is just an idea though. Hopefully i added some stuff...i dunno.
The same could be said of Athas. Psionics was overwhelmingly abundant; anyone could tap it, even the lowliest of the low had the Way, even if only to a micronic degree. Green Age Athas had many real-world ameneties in it, just because of psionics. Divine magic was also abundant, but lesser than psionics.
Then, along comes arcane magic, changing EVERYTHING. You didn't need an iron will for it, as you do with the Way, and you didn't need devotion and faith to use it, as you do divine magic. All you need is knowledge. It would have been a revolutionary concept, something Athas had never seen before. Suddenly, scholars are elevated to supreme importance; suddenly, books have very real power. The written word is now all-powerful.
I think Athas during the Time of Magic was very much like Netheril or Imaskar. Yeah, they may've lacked psionic enchantments, but spells level 1-9 make up for a lot, you know!
--and that's the tragedy: The Cleansing Wars, in seeking paradise, killed it NB
Physical labor is considered something that only the most back water degenerates do as something similar to communism begins to spread. People are no longer born into a social class, their power is based on their supernatural gifts. The weather can be manipulated, Food has never been more plentiful, and nothing has anymore value. Culture is able to develope fully atleast within the cities. Soon, this leads to a racial superiority idea placed among the humans because they exhibit the most promise for power. I believe that this flux in culture leads to decadance which eventually leads to the idea of mass genocide on behalf of the ideas of Rajaat.
--destroy the metal, and you cripple your enemy's magical and psionic infrastructure NB
Forgotten Realms is a high magic world and the weave is kinda like the force in Star Wars and it powers magic on that world. Athasians had to use plant life to power their spells as they didn't have the weave while magic on other DnD worlds seems to draw magical power from the outer planes which Athas has impeded acess to. The Green Age coud have been a Psionic equivilent of Eberron while the magic level was on par with Greyhawk or perhaps Dragonlance. Probably closer to the later really as DL seems to be a bit lower than Greyhawk and alot lower than the Realms in terms of big magic effects.
--both are very high-magic worlds....just not in any obvious manner NB
Krynn has never been a low-magic world. Magic has shaped Krynn in ways nothing else ever has. Granted, not to same extent magic has shaped Athas, but still; claiming Krynn and Athas are low-magic worlds is a major fallacy. Krynn, after all, had a nation of clerics that almost dethroned their gods, and Athas has Rajaat and advanced beings, living embodiments of psionic enchantment, the perfect melding of magic and the Way.
--both are very high-magic worlds....just not in any obvious manner NB
Both Athas and Krynn are relatively low magic worlds. Wizards are rare (Athas) and Krynn used to have a level limit of 18. Yes both worlds have powerful magic but its not as commen as say Greyhawk let alone Forgotten Realms or Eberron. On Krynn Clerics were rare as the proverbial dragons teeth.
Rajaat is orrelevent being more of a plit device than a true indicator of Atahs power levels and theres barely a dozen advanced bings at any one time and are mostly NPCs- even in 2nd ed it was stressed in Dragon Kings that Avangions/Dragons could be limited to NPCs only.
As for Athas, no wizards are not rare. Hidden, yes, but not rare. First off, every single city-state in the Tyr region has enough preservers in it to form a secret society of only preservers. Not preservers and defilers.....just preservers. Plus, the continuing decline of the Athasian wilderness is proof positive defilers still exist in large (if scattered and hidden) numbers. Consider that almost every elf tribe has a wizard in it, and that elves are very numerous, and suddenly Athas has plenty of arcane spellcasters.
And you're wrong again about advanced beings. Dragons are heavily suggested to remain NPCs: Avangions and clerical elementals are encouraged as PC choices.
--sorry, but you're wrong on virtually all counts NB
...actually, the whole level limit thing for Krynn went away in 3.x, and will never return. As various 3.5 supplements have shown, epic-level characters can and do exist in the Krynnish cosmology. So, yes, Krynn is a high-magic world, with characters like Fistandantilus and the last Kingpriest of Istar.
As for Athas, no wizards are not rare. Hidden, yes, but not rare. First off, every single city-state in the Tyr region has enough preservers in it to form a secret society of only preservers. Not preservers and defilers.....just preservers. Plus, the continuing decline of the Athasian wilderness is proof positive defilers still exist in large (if scattered and hidden) numbers. Consider that almost every elf tribe has a wizard in it, and that elves are very numerous, and suddenly Athas has plenty of arcane spellcasters.
And you're wrong again about advanced beings. Dragons are heavily suggested to remain NPCs: Avangions and clerical elementals are encouraged as PC choices.
--sorry, but you're wrong on virtually all counts NB
Somehow I doubt Krynn of Darksun rate as high magic espicially when compared to Eberron or Frogotten Realms .Wizards have to remain hidden the Sorceror Kings wiped out alot of divine casters while magical spells, components and items are unavailable on the open market. Wizards couldn't even specialise in 2nd ed due to a lack of knowledge and they get killed by the population at large if they reveal themselves. Of course wizards exist and some of them are powerful. Every city has a few but they are hidden and the general population doesn't have access to them
. Compare to Forgotten Realms where you have Auroras Whole Realms catalog and magic shops run by the Red Wizards of Thay and you have cities like Sshamath which deal in magic items and you have flying ships, netherise artifacts etc. In 2nd ed the Sorceror Kings would have been owned if they went to FR. They were level 20-30 while FR had more than a few 29-24 level NPCs not counting the glut of level 20+ wizard types. Or gods/chosen etc. If Dregoth went to FR via his planar gate for example he couldn't defile and even if he could Mystra could just say no spells for you- no ifs no buts he can't cast a single spell while on Toril.
I don't want to say FR is better than Athas (I like them both BTW) but they're definatly different. Athas and Krynn perhaps Ravenloft as well were at the lower end of the magic scale in the published TSR worlds. Krynn might scrape into the average category as the magic level rose with the return of the gods and the populace at large became less hostile to wizards. At the start of the series it was definatly low magic- 1 real cleric, wizards are rare and usually not very popular.
Low magic. Athas, Birthright,Krynn, Ravenloft
Average: Greyhawk,Mystara
High magic Forgotten Realms, Eberron,, Planescape
A DnD world is not low-magic because there are few spellcasters. It is a low-magic world when high level spells, artifacts, and such, don't even exist, not just rare, they don't exist at all.
In both Greayhawk, Krynn and Athas, wizards can get to 9th level spells and probably beyond (depends if epic rules are in use or not), and spellcasters just get there by acumulating knowledge and experiencie, they don't have to do anything outside what they normally do at low-levels to get there, just on a bigger scope.
So yeah, Greayhawk, Krynn and Athas are high-magic worlds. It's just that it's not evident, as for example, Eberron is.
Psionics was power throughout the green age. The time of magic came. What would've come?
Psionic trains, hovering platforms, psionic orbs to do most physical labor. What is left?
Perhaps magic is what gives the rest of society the power to compare to the psions. Perhaps it is this which creates a schizm within society. Two power sources. One which both can defend against, and the other which is unrivaled, and is only boosted further by the combination of both. Whould this topple the green age society and start the cleansing wars? Was Rajaat's purpose all along to start this and find some one to enact his schemes while he held his teachings under the guise of helping others? Was he pushing out the ideas that psionics and magic was the only way to go and they should bow down to humans. Was racial superiority suddenly something which needed to be addressed?
I think that the society of green age crumbled in chaos. If you assume that psionic and magic were "transparent" for each other (an it was so in 2e) and couldn't interfere suddenly all your security systems fall.
Societies wit abundant psionic surely developed abilities and items to defends itself from eny psionic attack attempt (burglary, murder, etc.).
And voila! Magic comes and nobody understands it and no one is able to defend against spells.
First one to get his hands on magic will be the winner. And misteriously Rajat is only granting his knowledge to humans. Hmm.
What do You think?
First one to get his hands on magic will be the winner. And misteriously Rajat is only granting his knowledge to humans. Hmm.
Actually, Rajaat taught magic all the Rebirth races not just humans. It was humans that he saw the most potential in and therefore used them to create his Champions.
Actually, Rajaat taught magic all the Rebirth races not just humans. It was humans that he saw the most potential in and therefore used them to create his Champions.
But he only taught them preserving magic. Only humans were defilers. And when we consider, that in 2e allmost all destructive spells were defiling spells and preservers were unable to lern them it makes the diference.
But he only taught them preserving magic. Only humans were defilers. And when we consider, that in 2e allmost all destructive spells were defiling spells and preservers were unable to lern them it makes the diference.
He teaches the defiling arts in secret to those of "questionable" character per the offical DS time line. That would denote to me that other races were taught defiling besides humans.
Too bad. Cause it really gives reason to humans - everybody else war.