Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 13:11:10	Alright, the idea behind this thread is to help with my construction of an alternate spellcasting system and what goes along with it. While I am in the process of converting everythign to an alternate game system, I believe that this will help. Basically the question is, What goes on when someone is doing something supernatural? Psionics - from everything that I have read, the psionicist has a finite amount of "stuff" he is able to shove out of himself to work with. I have seen this paired up with vitality point loss, power points, or psp. Reading some things about the 3.5 Psionics as well as a 2e conversion using vitality makes me think about overchannelling and possible drawbacks of psionics. Perhaps if you are reckless you can possibly knock out or kill yourself? That is just an idea however, making it a little more gritty. Arcane Magic - from what I've read, arcane magic is only limited in AD&D to limit the power of a spellcaster. It seems like the only limit to the spellcasters power is his natural ability and the surrounding landscape which they draw the energy from. Perhaps i am wrong, but this is how i am going to play it Templar, Clerical, and Druidic (Divine) Magic - This is where i'm stuck at. I have not read enough of the information to get a complete idea of how this works. I know that each is from a pact. Templars get it from sorcerer-kings, clerics from elementals, and druids from spirits of the land. Does that mean they never run out and only have to worry about the stress of channelling this energy and the things that they are gifted with or what? This is what i really need help on. Thanks.
#2 dirk00001 Feb 05, 2007 13:48:49	For the most part, my answer to your questions are based on fluff from novels and such (primarily the Prism Pentad) as opposed to game rules since, in essence, you're asking about the "feel" of things rather than a straight translation of their mechanics into ideas. Heh, maybe that last sentence doesn't make sense...I dunno. But anyway: Psionics - from everything that I have read, the psionicist has a finite amount of "stuff" he is able to shove out of himself to work with. I have seen this paired up with vitality point loss, power points, or psp. Reading some things about the 3.5 Psionics as well as a 2e conversion using vitality makes me think about overchannelling and possible drawbacks of psionics. Perhaps if you are reckless you can possibly knock out or kill yourself? That is just an idea however, making it a little more gritty. Examples of psionics on Athas have always focused on how much of a strain, both mentally as well as physically, manifesting powers is. In novels and such there really doesn't seem to be an "power reserve" as such, but instead it comes down to how much exertion the person can give before they simply collapse. Psionic "duels" between equals would likely result in both on their knees, trembling and gushing gallons of sweat, until one finally screams, bleeds from the ears (or worse) and falls over, dead. For Sorcerer-Kings and other powerful individuals it works the same, although the difference in ability levels between two "participants" in a psionic confrontation seems to matter - when an S-K obliterates a non-psion they do so without so much as breaking a sweat, while an S-K versus another powerful psion has to exert themself just as much as a novice would when first learning to harness their abilities. Arcane Magic - from what I've read, arcane magic is only limited in AD&D to limit the power of a spellcaster. It seems like the only limit to the spellcasters power is his natural ability and the surrounding landscape which they draw the energy from. Perhaps i am wrong, but this is how i am going to play it Natural ability and surrounding terrain both have an effect, although the latter mostly dictates how long it takes to cast a spell - the less life energy there is in an area, the longer the "gathering" of it takes. However, there's at least one example from the Prism Pentad where we find out that wizards are limited, for some other reason, in how much magic they can cast in one day; Sadira and her sister, when traveling to the Pristine Tower, "run out of spells" by the end of it - although I can't remember the wording, that part of the book basically described their spellcasting in the normal "spell slots/day" way - they memorized X number of specific spells, and once they'd cast that spell it was erased from their mind and no amount of plant life energy would let them cast it again. Templar, Clerical, and Druidic (Divine) Magic - This is where i'm stuck at. I have not read enough of the information to get a complete idea of how this works. I know that each is from a pact. Templars get it from sorcerer-kings, clerics from elementals, and druids from spirits of the land. Does that mean they never run out and only have to worry about the stress of channelling this energy and the things that they are gifted with or what? This is what i really need help on. Thanks. I really don't know about druids, but for the other two: Templars "request" power from their S-K masters - it is up to the S-K to grant them the spell, and theoretically they can deny any/all requests that they want. I can't remember the source but I know there's fluff, somewhere, that says that most templars are hesitant to call upon their S-K for magic, as they at least believe it's in limited supply, and in any case a templar that constantly asks for magical assistance from their master is quickly going to be "replaced" by a less-needy individual. Clerics make a pact and are granted magic through it, but beyond that it appears that their spellcasting potential is more a matter of what element they follow than some specific pattern. The sun clerics from the PP must "pay the price of pain" as it were to cast spells, as the sun's energy sorta burns them when they channel it...but they use it so rarely (in the books at least) that there's never really a situation where they seem to reach a limit of any sort. I think there's mention of the possibility of losing their powers if they abuse it, so it might just be a matter of limiting their spellcasting in order to make sure that they don't anger their elemental patrons. The other example I can think of are the elven windsingers, but unlike the sun/fire clerics they don't seem to pay any price for using their magic - they've just got to take the time to sing it, and it happens.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 14:23:07	actually, this is exactly what i was looking for, thank you. Psionics, you are saying, is almost exactly like fighting with a weapon. A mighty warrior will be able to use his skills and his attributes to quickly slay a novice without breaking a sweat while it would take a novice or a novice fighting a novice would be just as hard on them as if a master and a master fought one another. It's just like combat witha sword. My question is, how then does the psionicist maintain powers or manifest the amount without a limit to how much they can cast besides their mental and physical endurance?
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 21:18:56	fluff wise, does damage every come up as something like a cut or a peircing wound, or is it always like "knees buckle" or "head is crushed" That sounds like it is blunt to me and i am attempting to create a system where it is like the fluff.
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 05, 2007 23:17:52	However, there's at least one example from the Prism Pentad where we find out that wizards are limited, for some other reason, in how much magic they can cast in one day; Sadira and her sister, when traveling to the Pristine Tower, "run out of spells" by the end of it - although I can't remember the wording, that part of the book basically described their spellcasting in the normal "spell slots/day" way - they memorized X number of specific spells, and once they'd cast that spell it was erased from their mind and no amount of plant life energy would let them cast it again. When D&D 3.0 came out they stopped talking about "memorizing" spells even though the mechanics were still similar. Instead they used the term "preparing" spells. While this was merely somantics and I never felt it went far enough, at the same time I think they were trying to allow for different explanations as to the spell-slot mechanics. My first though on seeing it was that "preparation" was actually a matter of physically readying components, like the components are so volitile or delicate that you can only easily carry a certain number of preparations ("spell packets" if you will) about your person without significant risk of damaging, fumbling, or otherwise losing them. Of course on closer inspection the rules didn't bear out this interpretation (apparently it really is more a matter of mental/metaphysical preparation), but I still prefer the spell-packets idea. Maybe I'll have to see about comming up with a mechanic that supports it some day. Also I note that of the dozen D&D novels I've read, with the exception of a few specific cases (like the Prism Pentad one above), alot of authors really seem to avoid making any reference to the "spell-slots" issue. It's almost like, as a long-held part of the game system, spell-slots are something that novel authors feel they should not contradict. But at the same time the mechanic strikes most of writers as such an akward restriction on how magic should work in the story that they are dis-inclined to specifically confirm the existence for spell slots either. Or so it's generally seemed to me. Psionics, you are saying, is almost exactly like fighting with a weapon. A mighty warrior will be able to use his skills and his attributes to quickly slay a novice without breaking a sweat while it would take a novice or a novice fighting a novice would be just as hard on them as if a master and a master fought one another. It's just like combat witha sword. My question is, how then does the psionicist maintain powers or manifest the amount without a limit to how much they can cast besides their mental and physical endurance? Aren't mental and physical endurance enough of a limit? The only other factor I can think of that would normally come into play would be intentional external resistance (as from another psionist). fluff wise, does damage every come up as something like a cut or a peircing wound, or is it always like "knees buckle" or "head is crushed" That sounds like it is blunt to me and i am attempting to create a system where it is like the fluff. Are you talking about damage from psionics here? If so I'd imagine it could take just about any form that seems dramatically appropriate. In the case of a purely mental attack damage could range from no obvious injury (simple brain hemmorage or temporary "short circuit") to smoke comming from the victim's ears (as neural activity increases to such a degree that the brain overheats and actually combusts). For kinesis and other physical psionic attacks the damage could probably be even more diverse in it's description: pulling the victim's heart out or stopping it, telekinetically impaling the victim with psionic shards, cryokinetically freezing the victim, a pale and gaunt look from Death Field, etc.
#6 dirk00001 Feb 06, 2007 13:13:57	fluff wise, does damage every come up as something like a cut or a peircing wound, or is it always like "knees buckle" or "head is crushed" That sounds like it is blunt to me and i am attempting to create a system where it is like the fluff. It's actually described, as Kisnerp mentioned, based on what sort of attack it is. In the Prism Pentad most of it takes place "inside one's head" but the S-K's are so powerful that their psychic manifestations have very obvious - and gratuitous - physical manifestations: Kalak's mental assault on a templar is so strong it's felt by a separate templar standing nearby, and the first templar screams and bursts into flames; in another instance, the Dragon directs a psionic attack at a dwarf that's so powerful it vaporizes the poor stunty into a cloud of viscera and red mist. Basically, the more powerful the psion is, the more "physical" his manifestations become - even "normal" individuals with only a small amount of psionic training can defend against psionic attacks, even against psions that are pretty decent (although the more powerful they are, the shorter their defense will last), but the S-K's and such are so strong that their mentality "slips" over into the Real World. Even lesser-powered psions, such as Aegis, are able to do some physical things - there's one scene where (IIRC) he visualizes his hand as being in a different location than his body, which makes his had disappear, grab some distant object, and 'return' to his body with that object. On the far opposite end of the spectrum, using the powerful Dark Lens artifact, Tithian (a relatively weak psion) is able to manifest with such power that he causes purely physical results: He changes his body shape, creates "constructs" to attack others, etc. On the topic of constructs, most mental combat is described as taking place within the imagination, using imagined monsters, terrain, and situations to do the "fighting." For instance, one person creates a mental construct shaped like a wyvern, which is defended against by imagining that 'you' (your psyche, visualized as your physical form) is protected inside a tall tower, which is then knocked down as the wyvern turns into a meteor...stuff like that. And again, as far as the physical effects are concerned, the more powerful the psion is, the more "realistic" these visualizations will translate to physical effects. In the above Dragon example, he (IIRC...again... ;)) visualized a giant drake or something that chomped down on the dwarf...and it was so powerful that everyone else "saw" the drake appear, saw it bite the dwarf, and saw the expected physical effects of such an attack. Also I note that of the dozen D&D novels I've read, with the exception of a few specific cases (like the Prism Pentad one above), alot of authors really seem to avoid making any reference to the "spell-slots" issue. It's almost like, as a long-held part of the game system, spell-slots are something that novel authors feel they should not contradict. But at the same time the mechanic strikes most of writers as such an akward restriction on how magic should work in the story that they are dis-inclined to specifically confirm the existence for spell slots either. Or so it's generally seemed to me. Agreed...except for that specific instance in the PP, I can't think of any other "story" versions of spellcasting that really reference game "spell slot" mechanics. In this case, however (i.e. for "building from the ground up") I think it's appropriate to note, since it's a very specific, very straight-forward description from one of the primary/"canon" Dark Sun sources.
#7 dirk00001 Feb 06, 2007 13:24:18	Psionics, you are saying, is almost exactly like fighting with a weapon. A mighty warrior will be able to use his skills and his attributes to quickly slay a novice without breaking a sweat while it would take a novice or a novice fighting a novice would be just as hard on them as if a master and a master fought one another. It's just like combat witha sword. My question is, how then does the psionicist maintain powers or manifest the amount without a limit to how much they can cast besides their mental and physical endurance? Yes, basically that's it...with the addendums and additions from my previous post. And, also as Kisnerp said, one's overall endurance really is the only thing that limits them - at a certain point a psionicist becomes so physically and mentally exausted that they collapse, are killed, or otherwise "lose." The one non-combat situation I can think of where a psion pushed themselves too far was (as usual) in the Prism Pentad, with a shipfloater - they had to concentrate continuously to keep a silt ship floating, and one of the characters was using his psionic power to make their efforts more difficult, and in the end the psion shipfloater "died from exaustion," basically, because he wouldn't stop concentrating (since the ship would sink and everyone would die). There's some other examples of lesser psionic use, and in those cases it pretty much just appears to be mental limits that prevent a psion from going forever - after so much exertion they begin to lose focus, can't concentrate, and eventually pass out (or, as above, actually die) if they won't cave in. The "physical stress" is probably the minority in most cases, it's just that the visible effects of mental exhaustion appear very similar to physical ones - collapsing to one's knees or having to hold oneself up, etc.
#8 flip Feb 10, 2007 16:08:44	Also I note that of the dozen D&D novels I've read, with the exception of a few specific cases (like the Prism Pentad one above), alot of authors really seem to avoid making any reference to the "spell-slots" issue. It's almost like, as a long-held part of the game system, spell-slots are something that novel authors feel they should not contradict. But at the same time the mechanic strikes most of writers as such an akward restriction on how magic should work in the story that they are dis-inclined to specifically confirm the existence for spell slots either. Or so it's generally seemed to me. What's funny about this is that the entire spell-slot mechanic actually comes from a novel ... Tales from the Dying Earth (or something close to that) by Jack Vance ...