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Temples in Sigil

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cyriss
Feb 06, 2007 15:12:16 Are there many temples dedicated to specific deities in Sigil? The only official one I know of is the Temple of Hermes. I'm wondering if there's a list of temples anywhere.
#2
ripvanwormer
Feb 06, 2007 18:28:19
Are there many temples dedicated to specific deities in Sigil?

Yes. Very, very many.

I'm wondering if there's a list of temples anywhere.

There's one in In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil, page 30, but it shouldn't be considered exhaustive. Sigil is too big for any book to contain an exhaustive list of anything in it.

Temple of Hermes
Temple of the Abyss
Ptah
Io
Brahman
Muamman Duathal
Baravar Cloakshadow
Koriel
Diancastra
Zivlyn
Daragor
Shang-ti
Corellon Larethian
Gruumsh
The Lords of the Nine
Odin
Moradin
Garl Glittergold
Primus
Maglubiyet
Zeus

All that's just the ones in The Lady's Ward, mind (and it's not complete). It's a safe bet that Sigil has temples to every known god and many that are forgotten everywhere else (even a secret, ruined temple or two to Aoskar and The Lady herself). Wherever there's an ethnic neighborhood, for example, I'd expect to see at least one temple to the gods of that ethnicity.

Of course, some faiths may have to share temples because they can't afford to rent one on their own.

Update: a shrine to Pelor is mentioned in the Planar Handbook, page 142.
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 09, 2007 23:02:44 ...Primus has a temple?

Wait, let's go back a step. Primus has clergy? I know the hierarch modrons get clerical spells from him, but I thought he didn't care about any race but the modrons, and I can't picture... the... rogues...

...yes I can. If they ever heard about Primus and could grasp that he was a deity of any kind, well, they're not restricted from becoming clerics, and I could certainly see them worshiping the one being who is naturally Law Incarnate. A few other beings might be interested in such a religion as well. The only question I'd have remaining is whether Primus actually responds to any of their requests.

Hm. Flame_Drake's game is for ECL 3. I've already submitted a human Cop 3 (well, Rgr1/Rog1/Swa1 to simulate the training, but he's a cop through and through), but the PSCS rogue modron is LA +2 as a PC, so I could take a level of Cleric... :D
#4
ripvanwormer
Feb 10, 2007 2:23:13 If Primus has a temple anywhere in the multiverse, Sigil seems a likely place for it.

However, it doesn't say anything about him having clerics. It's possible that there's just a big temple with a statue of Primus in it, but no actual clerics of Primus. It might be attended to by clerics who worship Law as an abstract force (getting the Mechanus domain from the Planar Handbook), and they just use the statue of Primus as a symbol of that.

However, In the Cage says one of Primus' proxies is there, so there seems to be some official approval. Maybe it actually isn't a temple; maybe it's just a house where Primus' proxy dwells. It's listed in a section that listed a bunch of gods who have temples in Sigil, though, so who knows? Primus' proxy isn't described; presumedly, it's a modron of some kind.

Maybe there's a temple to Primus completely separate from the abode of Primus' proxy. That'd be a valid reading, too.
#5
zombiegleemax
Feb 10, 2007 20:13:00 Carrying this forward a little bit, I think it's safe to quote from an article on the modrons that WotC put up as a "web enhancement" for Manual of the Planes (if I'm wrong on that, I'll be happy to take it down!):

"Primus is a lesser deity of Mechanus... does not send avatars to other planes ... on other planes, it rarely interferes unless it sees a direct threat. It devotes most of its energy to perfecting and protecting Regulus and its inhabitants. ... Primus technically has few actual worshipers, since only the secundi are even directly aware of its existence... Primus grants divine spells, domain powers, and domain spells to all the hierarchs."

If we assume the article intends to imply the converse, Primus doesn't grant divine spells to non-hierarch modrons, which would include rogues. The "directly aware of its existence" comment, of course, only refers to members of the modron society themselves -- others are aware of Primus' existence -- but it might not care to receive worship from other sources, or acknowledge them. Certainly we don't hear of any human petitioners running around in Regulus! Oh well, I suppose we're essentially compelled to scratch the idea. There's just enough crack in the canon to make it possible... but plausibility is thin on the ground.

's too bad... I was certainly amused by the idea. But then, I also once wanted to play a human cleric of Yondalla, just for kicks. :D
#6
hazhar
Feb 16, 2007 8:18:55 ok, this is probably a dumb question, but why does The Lady allow temples to the Powers? Is it a case of tolerating the worship of them in her city, but not them themselves?
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 16, 2007 14:16:13
ok, this is probably a dumb question, but why does The Lady allow temples to the Powers? Is it a case of tolerating the worship of them in her city, but not them themselves?

Bingo.

A power can send its faithful, clergy, prophets, unhallowed genetically enhanced demon spawn minions; you name it, it's probably allowed as long as it doesn't monkey around with Her Serenity's designs for the city. Even proxies are let in, and only avatars and powers "in the flesh" are kept out (presumably, the Aoskar incident and the fact that she might have some troubles booting out more powerful divine entities once they actually get inside the city are what brought this state of affairs about).

Why does she do this? As always it's anyone's guess, but plausible enough explanations might be:

1) For some reason, the Lady does want there to be people living in her city, and keeping out those who follow a faith (and thus, as is their way, will practice it and build temples wherever they go) would amount to blocking out so much of the planes' population that Sigil would be reduced to mostly functioning as a giant staging ground for the Athar.

2) Related to the above, she may have found that having the followers of virtually every power of even remote planar reputation present means that their efforts, overt and covert, to gain prominence in the city leads to all of them cancelling one another out (just as the presence of mortals and divine agents of various kinds may serve as a fair distraction for the powerful planar entities who make their way to te city). By contrast, if she denied each power the vanity of believing that having its followers in the city could one day deliver it into its hands (if that is indeed what they believe), sufficiently many of them might be persuaded to band together (however temporarily) in a sustained effort to oust or destroy her. While presumably The Lady is powerful enough to keep an entire pantheon at bay if the need arose, even she might be overwhelmed by such a collective effort.

3) For all we know, the reason why the Lady can be so powerful without ostensibly having any worshippers may be because she is in fact subtly mooching off some of the divine energy provided by *all* the various worshippers in her city, which may well amount to a fair deal when taken together. The powers may be aware of this (or may, if each notices the drain at all, merely think it a side-effect of the Lady's defenses against them), but if so each also realizes that while its representation in the city only keeps it slipping further and further out of its grasp, pulling out and weakening the Lady's power would also lead to any remaining deities in Sigil gaining further influence over the city's population and thus becoming more powerful in relation to the others on the planes at large (Sigil in effect being a large case of some kind of divine game theory, if one so likes).

Other, more exotic, explanations, surely abound.
#8
andyr
Feb 19, 2007 10:02:27
3) For all we know, the reason why the Lady can be so powerful without ostensibly having any worshippers may be because she is in fact subtly mooching off some of the divine energy provided by *all* the various worshippers in her city, which may well amount to a fair deal when taken together. The powers may be aware of this (or may, if each notices the drain at all, merely think it a side-effect of the Lady's defenses against them), but if so each also realizes that while its representation in the city only keeps it slipping further and further out of its grasp, pulling out and weakening the Lady's power would also lead to any remaining deities in Sigil gaining further influence over the city's population and thus becoming more powerful in relation to the others on the planes at large (Sigil in effect being a large case of some kind of divine game theory, if one so likes).

That's a very interesting idea. The Lady as the original ur-priest, perhaps. ;)
#9
the_ubbergeek
Feb 28, 2007 22:40:04 Well, about Primus.... Some fiend lords allow a certain form of worship.... Is that a stretch to think it can work with other great plannars, like solars, great modrons and slad lords?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyriss Feb 06, 2007 15:12:16	Are there many temples dedicated to specific deities in Sigil? The only official one I know of is the Temple of Hermes. I'm wondering if there's a list of temples anywhere.
#2 ripvanwormer Feb 06, 2007 18:28:19	Are there many temples dedicated to specific deities in Sigil? Yes. Very, very many. I'm wondering if there's a list of temples anywhere. There's one in In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil, page 30, but it shouldn't be considered exhaustive. Sigil is too big for any book to contain an exhaustive list of anything in it. Temple of Hermes Temple of the Abyss Ptah Io Brahman Muamman Duathal Baravar Cloakshadow Koriel Diancastra Zivlyn Daragor Shang-ti Corellon Larethian Gruumsh The Lords of the Nine Odin Moradin Garl Glittergold Primus Maglubiyet Zeus All that's just the ones in The Lady's Ward, mind (and it's not complete). It's a safe bet that Sigil has temples to every known god and many that are forgotten everywhere else (even a secret, ruined temple or two to Aoskar and The Lady herself). Wherever there's an ethnic neighborhood, for example, I'd expect to see at least one temple to the gods of that ethnicity. Of course, some faiths may have to share temples because they can't afford to rent one on their own. Update: a shrine to Pelor is mentioned in the Planar Handbook, page 142.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 09, 2007 23:02:44	...Primus has a temple? Wait, let's go back a step. Primus has clergy? I know the hierarch modrons get clerical spells from him, but I thought he didn't care about any race but the modrons, and I can't picture... the... rogues... ...yes I can. If they ever heard about Primus and could grasp that he was a deity of any kind, well, they're not restricted from becoming clerics, and I could certainly see them worshiping the one being who is naturally Law Incarnate. A few other beings might be interested in such a religion as well. The only question I'd have remaining is whether Primus actually responds to any of their requests. Hm. Flame_Drake's game is for ECL 3. I've already submitted a human Cop 3 (well, Rgr1/Rog1/Swa1 to simulate the training, but he's a cop through and through), but the PSCS rogue modron is LA +2 as a PC, so I could take a level of Cleric... :D
#4 ripvanwormer Feb 10, 2007 2:23:13	If Primus has a temple anywhere in the multiverse, Sigil seems a likely place for it. However, it doesn't say anything about him having clerics. It's possible that there's just a big temple with a statue of Primus in it, but no actual clerics of Primus. It might be attended to by clerics who worship Law as an abstract force (getting the Mechanus domain from the Planar Handbook), and they just use the statue of Primus as a symbol of that. However, In the Cage says one of Primus' proxies is there, so there seems to be some official approval. Maybe it actually isn't a temple; maybe it's just a house where Primus' proxy dwells. It's listed in a section that listed a bunch of gods who have temples in Sigil, though, so who knows? Primus' proxy isn't described; presumedly, it's a modron of some kind. Maybe there's a temple to Primus completely separate from the abode of Primus' proxy. That'd be a valid reading, too.
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 10, 2007 20:13:00	Carrying this forward a little bit, I think it's safe to quote from an article on the modrons that WotC put up as a "web enhancement" for Manual of the Planes (if I'm wrong on that, I'll be happy to take it down!): "Primus is a lesser deity of Mechanus... does not send avatars to other planes ... on other planes, it rarely interferes unless it sees a direct threat. It devotes most of its energy to perfecting and protecting Regulus and its inhabitants. ... Primus technically has few actual worshipers, since only the secundi are even directly aware of its existence... Primus grants divine spells, domain powers, and domain spells to all the hierarchs." If we assume the article intends to imply the converse, Primus doesn't grant divine spells to non-hierarch modrons, which would include rogues. The "directly aware of its existence" comment, of course, only refers to members of the modron society themselves -- others are aware of Primus' existence -- but it might not care to receive worship from other sources, or acknowledge them. Certainly we don't hear of any human petitioners running around in Regulus! Oh well, I suppose we're essentially compelled to scratch the idea. There's just enough crack in the canon to make it possible... but plausibility is thin on the ground. 's too bad... I was certainly amused by the idea. But then, I also once wanted to play a human cleric of Yondalla, just for kicks. :D
#6 hazhar Feb 16, 2007 8:18:55	ok, this is probably a dumb question, but why does The Lady allow temples to the Powers? Is it a case of tolerating the worship of them in her city, but not them themselves?
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 16, 2007 14:16:13	ok, this is probably a dumb question, but why does The Lady allow temples to the Powers? Is it a case of tolerating the worship of them in her city, but not them themselves? Bingo. A power can send its faithful, clergy, prophets, unhallowed genetically enhanced demon spawn minions; you name it, it's probably allowed as long as it doesn't monkey around with Her Serenity's designs for the city. Even proxies are let in, and only avatars and powers "in the flesh" are kept out (presumably, the Aoskar incident and the fact that she might have some troubles booting out more powerful divine entities once they actually get inside the city are what brought this state of affairs about). Why does she do this? As always it's anyone's guess, but plausible enough explanations might be: 1) For some reason, the Lady does want there to be people living in her city, and keeping out those who follow a faith (and thus, as is their way, will practice it and build temples wherever they go) would amount to blocking out so much of the planes' population that Sigil would be reduced to mostly functioning as a giant staging ground for the Athar. 2) Related to the above, she may have found that having the followers of virtually every power of even remote planar reputation present means that their efforts, overt and covert, to gain prominence in the city leads to all of them cancelling one another out (just as the presence of mortals and divine agents of various kinds may serve as a fair distraction for the powerful planar entities who make their way to te city). By contrast, if she denied each power the vanity of believing that having its followers in the city could one day deliver it into its hands (if that is indeed what they believe), sufficiently many of them might be persuaded to band together (however temporarily) in a sustained effort to oust or destroy her. While presumably The Lady is powerful enough to keep an entire pantheon at bay if the need arose, even she might be overwhelmed by such a collective effort. 3) For all we know, the reason why the Lady can be so powerful without ostensibly having any worshippers may be because she is in fact subtly mooching off some of the divine energy provided by all the various worshippers in her city, which may well amount to a fair deal when taken together. The powers may be aware of this (or may, if each notices the drain at all, merely think it a side-effect of the Lady's defenses against them), but if so each also realizes that while its representation in the city only keeps it slipping further and further out of its grasp, pulling out and weakening the Lady's power would also lead to any remaining deities in Sigil gaining further influence over the city's population and thus becoming more powerful in relation to the others on the planes at large (Sigil in effect being a large case of some kind of divine game theory, if one so likes). Other, more exotic, explanations, surely abound.
#8 andyr Feb 19, 2007 10:02:27	3) For all we know, the reason why the Lady can be so powerful without ostensibly having any worshippers may be because she is in fact subtly mooching off some of the divine energy provided by all the various worshippers in her city, which may well amount to a fair deal when taken together. The powers may be aware of this (or may, if each notices the drain at all, merely think it a side-effect of the Lady's defenses against them), but if so each also realizes that while its representation in the city only keeps it slipping further and further out of its grasp, pulling out and weakening the Lady's power would also lead to any remaining deities in Sigil gaining further influence over the city's population and thus becoming more powerful in relation to the others on the planes at large (Sigil in effect being a large case of some kind of divine game theory, if one so likes). That's a very interesting idea. The Lady as the original ur-priest, perhaps. ;)
#9 the_ubbergeek Feb 28, 2007 22:40:04	Well, about Primus.... Some fiend lords allow a certain form of worship.... Is that a stretch to think it can work with other great plannars, like solars, great modrons and slad lords?