I've noticed that there aren't any real penalties in regards to assuming the taint of defiling. Sure, you've got a permanent Defiler score (I'm not quite sure how Oronis circumvented this, so I'll just chalk it up to story considerations), but but aside from being detectable via "detect taint", or harmed via "revenge of the land", there are no real repercussions for defiling other than short term, because once you assume said taint, you're back to basics. Has anyone come up with any house rules regarding the defiler score? Was there additional material that Dave Noonan had intended?
I was just pondering the same thing......
I've noticed that there aren't any real penalties in regards to assuming the taint of defiling. Sure, you've got a permanent Defiler score (I'm not quite sure how Oronis circumvented this, so I'll just chalk it up to story considerations), but but aside from being detectable via "detect taint", or harmed via "revenge of the land", there are no real repercussions for defiling other than short term, because once you assume said taint, you're back to basics. Has anyone come up with any house rules regarding the defiler score? Was there additional material that Dave Noonan had intended?
I've added little things to the mix for the Defiling mechanics presented in that magazine. First, I removed the T'liz transformation which is hokey in my personal opinion, I then incorporated the addiction rules from the Book of Vile Darkness into the mix, making defiling become a pretty nasty addiction -- the more you defile, the more you need to defile and the harder it is to stop (with possibilities of withdrawals that kill if you've defiled for far too ling). Finally, I incorporated the Taint rules from Unearthed Arcana with it, which provides an interesting set of mechanics for dealing with defilers who have "assumed the taint".
Then, of course, I also made my druids a bit more vengeful, ruthless, and crazed with anger over defiling.... "the only good defiler is a dead defiler, and every preserver is just a potential defiler" kind of thing -- Ruling that this more or less is the sentiment that the Spirits of the Land pass down to their druid followers, as I've also made defiling (excessive defiling) be able to seriously wound & injure the Spirit of the Land for that area, and if enough defiling is done, it can even kill the Spirit of the Land. Those kinds of things build up a pretty nasty amount of angst against defiling.
If I ever have the time to, I'll get them put up on my website. Life keeps calling me away from being able to do too much any more, however...
After hundreds of tests and changes in my own house rules, today it rests as following:
Every preserver can defile, and while doing so he gets a bonus to caster level and spell save DC, acording to the table bellow.
i really liked the taint rules from the HoH because of the twisting it does to the body and mind the more taint you assume. and the impression that i always had with dark sun was that defiling really twisted you the farther you went with it.
Rules for defiling presented on Dragon 315 aren´t good at all. The taint doesn´t hurt the defiler at all, and the metamagic systen on the fly enables great abuse.
After hundreds of tests and changes in my own house rules, today it rests as following:
Every preserver can defile, and while doing so he gets a bonus to caster level and spell save DC, acording to the table bellow.
the approach i took was to incorporate the dragon 315 rules minus the t'liz transformation and meshed the taint rules from the heros of horror supplement.
i really liked the taint rules from the HoH because of the twisting it does to the body and mind the more taint you assume. and the impression that i always had with dark sun was that defiling really twisted you the farther you went with it.
Yeah they have some great lists of creepy sh+t in that book.
A perfer more specific tangible penalties, rather then a generic charisma penalty. For instance your touch feels of ice or fire, your breath smells of ashes, animals growl or hiss at you and won't let you approach them, canivorous plants and elements always attack you 1st and won't attack anyone else if you are a readily available target, Your eyes become hollow pits of darkness or appear grey as if covered by cataracts, your voice always sounds cracked and dry, etc.
Ruhl-Than Sage,
Your post fits nicely as flavor text for the defiling rules I´m already using.
I mean, you describe the effects of Cha penalty in role-playing, however, my mechanics are important to keep the balance, if combined they would work great.
the approach i took was to incorporate the dragon 315 rules minus the t'liz transformation and meshed the taint rules from the heros of horror supplement.
i really liked the taint rules from the HoH because of the twisting it does to the body and mind the more taint you assume. and the impression that i always had with dark sun was that defiling really twisted you the farther you went with it.
I've added little things to the mix for the Defiling mechanics presented in that magazine. First, I removed the T'liz transformation which is hokey in my personal opinion, I then incorporated the addiction rules from the Book of Vile Darkness into the mix, making defiling become a pretty nasty addiction -- the more you defile, the more you need to defile and the harder it is to stop (with possibilities of withdrawals that kill if you've defiled for far too ling). Finally, I incorporated the Taint rules from Unearthed Arcana with it, which provides an interesting set of mechanics for dealing with defilers who have "assumed the taint".
Are the taint rules presented in both Heroes of Horror and Unearthed Arcana the same or are there differences?
Are the taint rules presented in both Heroes of Horror and Unearthed Arcana the same or are there differences?
HoH expands on the taint rules for UA and are much better.
HoH expands on the taint rules for UA and are much better.
I will try to find HoH and take a look in its rules. Meanwhile, I will be using the rules described above, since it works fine for me.
I don't think defiling should cause any physical penalties/taint... that brings it too close to The Dark Side of the Force! Powerful defilers would then have to load up on tons of illusions/disguises to hide their taint.
It is a quick path to power, though not necessarily evil (like killing)... certainly adicting though.
It is a quick path to power, though not necessarily evil (like killing)... certainly adicting though.
I guess that depends on whether or not destroying your environment is considered evil.
But, not owning Dragon 315 myself, can anyone give me the general gist of the T'liz transformation process? Is it more of a gradual long term consequence of defiling or a specific ritual of some sort or what?
But, not owning Dragon 315 myself, can anyone give me the general gist of the T'liz transformation process? Is it more of a gradual long term consequence of defiling or a specific ritual of some sort or what?
Basically, if you rack up enough defiler points without assuming the taint of defilement, then you become a t'liz. The only problem is that other than being detected as a defiler through the detect defiler spell, there is no reason not to assume the taint. It almost strikes me that becoming a t'liz should be the out come of assuming the taint not just the accrument of defiler points.
Basically, if you rack up enough defiler points without assuming the taint of defilement, then you become a t'liz. The only problem is that other than being detected as a defiler through the detect defiler spell, there is no reason not to assume the taint. It almost strikes me that becoming a t'liz should be the out come of assuming the taint not just the accrument of defiler points.
Huh. I'm inclined to agree with you. Seems funny that they didn't do it that way.
Though on second thought maybe they did it that way so that t'liz would be rarer than just plain old defilers. Still seems kind of an odd way to accomplish that end though.
I guess that depends on whether or not destroying your environment is considered evil.
Absolutely... Dark Sun is pretty morally ambiguous as D&D campaigns go, IMO. Survival generally overrides the need/desire to be good or evil. Denning does a great job of portraying that in the novels.
In regards to defiling, from an environmental standpoint it is certainly evil. But for most, it depends on what you're using it for... as Sadira tries to justify defiling in defense of Tyr and freedom.
It analogizes well with killing... for example, when is killing/murder justified for the greater good? Are Veiled Alliance who murder templars and wizards outright, just because of what they are, considered good?
My point is, I consider defiling (or preserving) a neutral game mechanic... not a moral slide to "the Dark Side".
In the second edition there is no physical taint noticiable.
Maybe its because the people of Athas are already strange in his aspect. I remember that i can choose an strange skin coloration in the creation of a character, or similar weird cosmetic changes. It means that even in the event that a defiler get a psysical change people do not see him or her as a defiler.
I am agree that the taint will be more like an strange aura in the defiler, a non psysical change.
I think that defiling is evil the way same that certain undead, the blighter prestige class and (mostly necromantic) spells are evil.
Absolutely... Dark Sun is pretty morally ambiguous as D&D campaigns go, IMO. Survival generally overrides the need/desire to be good or evil. Denning does a great job of portraying that in the novels.
In regards to defiling, from an environmental standpoint it is certainly evil. But for most, it depends on what you're using it for... as Sadira tries to justify defiling in defense of Tyr and freedom.
It analogizes well with killing... for example, when is killing/murder justified for the greater good? Are Veiled Alliance who murder templars and wizards outright, just because of what they are, considered good?
My point is, I consider defiling (or preserving) a neutral game mechanic... not a moral slide to "the Dark Side".
While I tend to rule that most residents of the Tablelands are honestly more concerned about survival than the tenants of "good" and "evil" -- I don't define "good" and "evil" as things that a particular culture sets up. I tend to have a "moral compass" that overrides it all, which determines "good" and "evil" -- even if a particular culture doesn't see it that way (like, for instance, Halflings eating other sentient races). In that light -- I do believe that defiling in inherently evil, it is a corrupting influence. Destroying life at the level which defiling does just can't, in my book, be anything less than that -- especially as there is a way to avoid it -- it becomes more of a thing that arcane spellcasters do on a whim -- they don't practice self-control (or willingly choose to go too far), and this begins a long process of tainting or corrupting them.
While I consider preserving a "neutral" game mechanic -- it is stealing life-energy from things (against their wills as applies), but it also is done in such a way as to not leave a lasting effect -- in my book that is two sides which effectively "cancel" each other out resulting in a morally neutral point. defiling, however, is blatantly sucking out the lives of things around you (plants for typical defiling, animals for dragon magic) for your own personal ends.
I don't see preserving as the "light side" and defiling as the "dark side" -- I see them more as use of the power as opposed to abuse of the power. There could be good or evil preservers, but I cannot see how there can be any good defilers -- anyone who defiles is justifying it to themselves if they see themselves as good.
I see no place for social penalties for defiling as well: most people do not distinguish sorts of wizards.
These two points help to make path sinister a nearly irresistible temptation. As it must be.
But for the most part, unless you are dealing with other arcane spellcasters constantly, the differences between "defiler" and "preserver" in my campaigns is overlooked. Arcane spellcasters in general are hated.
Oh, I don't have any penalties for defiling. In fact, I make it rather nice -- borrowing heavily from Paizo's concepts. However, I penalize those who decide to stop... They realize that they are addicted -- physically addicted to defiling.
While I think taint doesn't fit into DS's moral ambiguous nature, the idea of defiling as addicting is great.
Are the rules right in Vile Darkness, or do you have your own modifiers and adjustments?
While I think taint doesn't fit into DS's moral ambiguous nature, the idea of defiling as addicting is great.
Are the rules right in Vile Darkness, or do you have your own modifiers and adjustments?
I pulled them right from Book of Vile Darkness. I made some minor adjustments so that the more defiling a particular character does, over time, compounds the addiction -- making it worse. Basically, the more you defile, the harder and harder it is to stop. Starting from the weakest addiction modifiers, to the hardest (which includes damage to the Constitution ability that could result in death).
As far as taint goes -- just because there is more ambiguity in the world, doesn't mean that morality doesn't exist. I'm not fond of "moral relativism". To me, there is a definite line between something being "good" or "evil" -- regardless of the cultural or social influences. Now, the culture and/or society might disregard this (like the denizens of the Tablelands tend to), but that doesn't mean it isn't there. For my campaigns, day-to-day survival still overrides any concern about morally being right or wrong, that is for sure. But there still is a difference between being morally right or wrong. To me, Defiling is most definitely morally wrong -- it is close to being the penultimate levels of total selfishness -- taking what you want, regardless of the consequences. And in this case, it is taking the life & fertility of the vegetation & land around you to serve your own purposes. It is laying waste to what little life is left in he wasteland for your own personal gain (even if that gain is to help/protect others, there are other ways to carry this out). Even the most altruistic purpose for defiling is twisted and corrupted by the simple facts of what defiling is and does -- in the present, and the future.
So, while I keep moral ambiguity around -- where the people may not be troubled by the concerns of right or wrong, I still keep the tenants of morality as a defined mechanic in the game, with consequences for ones actions constantly being observed.
But that wrong doesn't need mechanical reinforcement, a signpost saying "look at me, I'm wrong". When you institute rules like taint and such, you're saying "in my game, evil is a physical force which can physically change thing". This is fine, but reduces some of the subtlety of evil. Sometimes evil is invisible, and sometimes evil is only recognizable as such later.
Defiling is evil the way all matters of evil are. But handing out taint is like making a corporate director an evil baby-eater, cackling maniacally as his company rapes the earth and abuses the poor.
All in my humble opinion of course. If you want evil to have a tangible presence in your world, that's fine. But to my eye it's more suitable in games such as Legend of the Five Rings, where there is EVIL, than in Dark Sun where evil takes the form of selfishness and short-sightedness.