The Epic level rules aern't remotly balenced, often make little sense and are rapidly becoming obsolete- apart from being 3.0. Several new non epic feats are actually more powerful than some of the epic feats or are virtually identical. Also the feats designed for non spellcasters are alot weaker than those designed for wizard and cleric. I reasonably sure you don't even need several classes in the high level let alone epic level games if you have access to Cleric, Druid or Wizard.
Combat at those levels can often boil down to who wins initiative as the first strike can often be the last one although at least 3.5 is slightly more forgiving than 3.0 in this regard due to nerfed haste/timestop although 3.5 timestop+forcecage+various spells is usually an instant kill combo if one isn't a spellcaster or has access to certain magical items. Throw in a very wonky CR system that often either doesn't work or is outright broken/wrong. Pity the poor fighter type who doesn't have acces to a ring of freedom of movement when fighting huge monsters or bigger with improved grab for example. Magic/Psionics more or less overpowers every other class in combat and outside of it. While Mr Fighter drools over his new feat that lets him gain a whopping +1 or 2 to hit and maybe a similar amount on damage Mr Wizard gains 2 new spells for his bok+ more spells per level and can gain access to gate or planeshift, clone etc which are alot more powerful effects than something a mere feat can emulate.
The Athas.org Dragon prc requires you to be a multiclass character and the PrC is probably fine and balenced all things considered. I'm sure most of us here know tht the multticlass rules ar somewhat lacking in regard to primary spell casters taking more than a 1 level dip into another class. The Wiz 10/Cleric 10 or wiz 5/cleric5/mystic theurge 10 is going to be drastically weaker than a pure wiz or clr 20. A fighter/barbarian/ranger/rogue combination that adds up to 20 levels an often still be as effective as a single class individual. Fighter 4/Rogue 16, or Fighter 6/Barbarian 7/Ranger 7 doesn't lose that much compared to a rogue 20 in the 1st example or Fighter 20, Barbaian 20, or Ranger 20 for the 2nd example and could even be stronger or more min/maxed if you prefer. Replace Mystic Theurge with Cerebremancer if you prefer and the example should still make my point. Most level 20 characters I suspect will have a prestige class or 3 in there somewhere as well.
I agree with the Dragon PrC as far a balence issues are concerned for PCs but they don't really work IMHO for NPCs. Dregoth for example in Dregoth Ascending 3 is CR 49. However he is a reasonably pathetic CR 49 when compared to other CR 49ish critters from the ELH or other creatures form the monster manual 1-4 when advanced via class levels or hit dice. Great Wurm Red Dragon with 25 levels of sorceror or PrCs that stack with the wryms sorceror spellcasting level anyone-CR 49 44th level caster no Psionics but meh?
My point being what works for a PC may not work very well for an NPC and vice versa. The Practiced Spellcaster/Mainfester feat is fine for PCs but often broken on any monster with spells and whos HD are alot higher than caster level. Give that feat to a GW Red Dragon and they are now casting sorceror spells at level 23 or to the advanced example above level 44. Another example would be the epic mage armor spell form the epic level handbook. Fine for an PC wizard type not so great for an NPC Dragon or slightly advanced Solar with the epic spellcasting feat.
I won't mention how broken the epic spellcasting feat is espicially the fortify seed. Its not to hard to give yourself +10 or higher to various ability scores 24/7 for very little effort or money to research such a spell. Of course the DM can say no but if I had to DM I would be saying no to alot of epic spells methinks. Mr fighter gets epic weapon focus so it must balence out right and has to spend a small fortune on any weapon that is +6 or higher.
Overall I think the Dragon/Avangion PrC is more or less unplayable as written. Its weak vs other epic characters and NPCs are either going to be to weak vs PCs of similar level or are going to be extremly high in levels compared to the PCs- the 3.5 rules are built with the assumption that anything 4-5 CRs higher than the PCs is going to either result in a bloodbath for the PCs or the PCs will fluke it and be entitled to alot more xp than they should otherwise get or require the DM to use them in ways where they are weaker for some reason- a'la Dregoth in Dregoth Ascending.
Theres little point is statting out Sorceror Kings if the PCs either have to be uber high in levels to face them (30-40+?) or they get the "stealth" nerf from the DM. To me they are the DS equivilent of Archfiends-powerful BBEG you should mess with unless you're level 18+ but should be doable and make a great campaign goal for a level 18-22 party. The Age of Worms for example had the PCs face a weak demigod while the current adventure path in Dungeon magazine seems to be heading in a showdown with Demogorgon. In the 2nd ed game it seemed you could have a reasonable whack at one at around level 10-15 and the heroes of Tyr were level 10-15 so the SKs weren't that scary stat wise.
In my games Dragons/Avangions are NPCs only and have "monster" hit dice. A 21st level Dragon in 2nd ed would be around CR 22 while a level 30 one is about CR 34-20 for caster level 30, +2 for Psion levels and another +2 for Dragon hit dice and AC etc. Borys would be CR 36ish as he has unique abilities. Remember CR 36 is supposed to be twice as strong as CR34 even though the CR is only 2 higher. I've only used a Dragon once in game and it seemed to work with out resorting to a heap of levels that drive the CR up. I think Athas.org has done a great job but is hamstrung by the rules involving challenge ratings, the epic level handbook, and the way multiclassing works in third edition.
Did I mention I really don't like the ELH:D
My campaign is called "Return of Kalak", though the players don't know that yet...
Basic premise is that loyal templars of Kalak have been spending the last 25 years (campaign set 15 years after CS) trying to "raise" Kalak. They were the ones that secreted away his body after Rikus, Tithian & co. slew him back when.The final foe encounter will be against Kalak - 25th level undead-type dragon... not quite as mean or powerful as Dregoth, but close. I thought to also balance him by removing a few of the highest wizard and psion levels... figure some things were lost in the long years dead.
I've glanced through the EPH, but not spent too much time on it yet. Any recommendations for generating worthy foes?
At Zardnaard: the multi spellcasting class does get a little nerfed, there are some fixes for it though. Change the epic progression to Caster increases for both on every level, and then have a bonus feat every 6th level or 5 if you think it's not enough. The thing is, is that learning more then one casting class is inherently weaker in d20, it has nothing to do with Epic. If you think some feats are weak compared to non-epic, change one or the other.
Many people have gotten the Epic system to work, it's not perfect but neither is d20. Problems in Standard will be amplified in the Epic system as the numbers grow exponentially.
Good ones.
Arcane Trickster
Abjurant Champion
Arcane Hieophant
OK Ones
Spellsword
Tue Necromancer
Bad Ones
Mysic Theurge
Cerebremancer
Eldritch Knight
Can't beat a combined Familiar Animal companion!
Arcane Heirophant is quite good actually!:D
Can't beat a combined Familiar Animal companion!
And yet I don't think its broken. I think WOTC designed the original dual progression classes and were over cautious perhaps overrating the threat of dual progression.
This is a problem with lack of support by WotC, it'd be nice if they did a Complete Epic or a new Epic Handbook.
I'd agree, the Cerebromancer and the Mystic Theurge are quite weak, as doing the individual classes is better as far as Feats go, the other features balance out...
This is a problem with lack of support by WotC, it'd be nice if they did a Complete Epic or a new Epic Handbook.
Well apparently only around 1% of gamers play epic level although mnaybe that s due to the poor job they done on the ELH regarding balence or even the way they done class progression. The game has alot of issues level 13+ let alone 21+
Doesn't help either that newly released classes and feats are more powerful than some of the stuff in the ELH!
I'd rather see something along the lines of the old D&D Immortals gold box.
As for epic, some of it is nice and some needs work. Things I don't like are all or nothing saves, auto-hit (limited wish) devices (hell I don't like it even with the deities), total immunities, and things were power resistence is through the roof. I am slowly working out what my changes are, some thing that I use aren't in epic and so have to be fleshed out such as Class Defense and the like.
The reason this is an issue is becasue no one can come close to dealing the same amount of damage - well no one of the other players I currently have. Well, this is not so much a problem as it just makes things harder for me.
My point I guess is this - yes the character is really powerful and I actually have to work at keeping the encounters balanced and the other players challenged without punishing them for the muls combat abilities.
So when I see a thread that has the subject matter of complaining about balance and the reasons stuff is weak or needs fixing, well all I have to say is this "Then fix it!" there is noting stopping a DM from changing the rules in the books to suit his desires. Heck - I do it all the time.
In an FR campaign I used hit and run on the PCs in the underdark for 3 days with Drow. PCs were fuming. Also hit them when they're resting at night. No one sane really wants to go head to head with a Mul/Kreen//Half Giant.