As you may see from the list of sources, the map tries to summarize all the bits of information about this area that are dispersed in the various official supplements. Again, the map collects all the available info, even if they are related to different hystorical periods. They are collected just to give an idea of which influences may be predominant in a given region of the map.
The method I used as a basis for this work was a kind of "superposition": if two official sources depicted the same data in two different ways I put in the map both of them, considering them as if they referred to different events/places/migrations. I think it's a suitable way to enrich the description of unknown areas without being involved into never ending quarrels about the "correct" version of the canon that should be used.
Important: I did not insert fan-based material. This does not mean that I don't like the work already done for this region. I just wanted to summarize the canonical information about the central Brun area (and suggest some other addendum from still unplaced canon material), just to give a basis for the developing of the undescribed areas and for the improvement of the historical background of the region.
Here is the map:
http://it.geocities.com/lutetius4/Mappe4/Central_Brun_Cultures6.JPG
Elements from canon with a definite placement:
Humanoids migrations:
Continuous lines represents the GAZ10 migrations, while most of the dotted lines represents the movements described in the HW set migration map. I prolonged the migration moving in the NW direction to take in account for the invasion of the Sylvan Realm of the Moorkroft orcs. In my "superposition" approach each migration corresponds to a different humanoid group. In particular, the dotted humanoid migration that goes SW along the Yalu river might be identified with the escape of Ungar Red Fist, the kidnapper of Yogo the mad and the original stealer of the Blue Knife from Urzud.
For the beastmen migrations I considered only the GAZ10 data. If we consideri also the HW migration info it would be necessary to add a beastmen movement from northern Norwold to the west.
Elves migrations:
Continuous line represents the Ilsundal migration as is described in GAZ5. Dotted lines show the HW's set elven migration. Again, I supposed that these two movements refer to two different migrations (the dotted one likely being the route of the famous "second migration" from Grunland). Maybe it would be interesting to attribute the final part of the dotted migration to some small group of elves that reached the Sylvan Realm from an independet route with respect to Ilsundal.
I showed also the possible route of a group of elves that fled the Sylval Realm in AC600 and then reached Graakhalia in AC610 (from CoM Explorer's Manual). This migration may be also the origin of the Tarlyon elves clan of CM5 (see below) that I placed in the northern side of the Black Mountains.
Neathar migration:
HW's migration map show that the original region of the Brun's Neathars is the same area occupied by the barbarians that will invade Hule many millennia after. These barbarians are also the ancestors of the human population of the kingdoms of Robrenn and Eusdria.
Earthshaker route:
From CM4. Earthsaker was discovered by Milos in a mountain range west of Glantri (possibly the Black Mountains) and it is moved first to Glantri then to Norwold. The gnomes inhabiting it may be loosely related to the cursed gnomes described in X5 that are condemed to roam the Great Pass region without never finding the exit.
Forest coverage:
It comes from the general map of Mystara with some modifications due to other smaller scale maps (there are no big forest in Hule, while the region SW of the Bylot Hills is a desert). I also added a couple of big woods north of Wendar that are visible in large scale DotE and WotI maps.
The route of Thelvyn Foxeyes from the Dragonlord Trilogy:
Thelvyn route from Dragonwatch Keep to Wendar should be a straight line. The voyage is unenventful: Thelvyn has the armor of the Dragonlord, and is escorted by a gold dragon and some other companions, so the other creatures of the region avoided the group.
Confirmed nations and political entities:
The land area they claim is colored in yellow. In detail:
- Moorkroft Realm engulfs the Sylvan Realm and the whole coast south of it, for at least a week of travel on foot (from CM7). The suothern coast (a grassy region) is inhabited by Moorkroft minions (orcs). East of this realm there are other human dominions allied (or subjected) to Moorkroft. From this region come the human vyvern riders that compose the elite troops of the mage's army.
- Dragonwatch keep is an ancient Blackmoorish castle that survived the Cataclysm and now is a temple of the Great One. It is empty ant it is guarded by cleric-gold dragons (from the Dragonlord Trilogy).
- Cropland is a peaceful country of nearly harmless farmers and fishers. They settled the last part of the Yalu river, from the big waterfalls to the sea. It is described in Dungeon Magazine #6-7 and it is guarded by the Lawful Brotherhood.
- The Chaotic Sisterhood is an alliance of aranea, witches and savage humans (man-eaters) that is centered in the ruins od Dravya (the ancient capital of the Dravish Empire) and controls the easten roads from the Trident Bay. It is loosely descibed in Dungeon Magazine #6-7.
- The Lawful Brotherhood is described in some modules (X9, Dungeon Magazine #6-7, SC) and it has many outposts. The northernmost is an alliance of humans, tortles and lupins and it is centered in the ruins of the dravish city of Yazak. It controls the most of the plains to the Bylot hills.
- The Neutral Alliance is describe in Dungeon #6-7. It is made from nomadic sheperds (humans) and rakastas and it controls the Bylot hills and the desert plains placed SE of them (the Dry Flats).
- Barbarians (north of Hule): they are described in PWAIII. Given the fact that they limit Hule's expansion northward, their territory should extend along the whole northern Hulean border. I think that the barbarian territory also extends in the southern Midland forest, where they may be advantaged against Hulean aggressions.
- Barbarians (Northern Wildlands): they are described in the X10. Though not united, their territory should extend NW of the Realm of Wendar. They probably may be found also in northernmost regions.
- Quauriks: they are a little secluded human comunity described in AC9. We know that they live in a deserted valley in the polar regions, underneath a magically heated dome. The society is governed by some man eaters mages. Even if the placement of the Quaurik enclave is arbitrary, I think that this position might be suitable.
Elements from canon with a NON-definite placement:
1) Yalu river savages:
From Dungeon #6-7: they are grouped in human tribes along the Yalu river north of the waterfalls. They prey for floods and possibly barter with the passing visitors.
2) Savage humans and elves of the Midlands:
They are just cited in the Dragonlord Trilogy, along the Thelvyn route from Dragonwatch Keep to Wendar. I placed the humans near to the human realms allied with Moorkroft, while I placed the elves in the fringe of the Midlands Forest, in a place touched by the Ilsundal migration.
3) Koralgesh, Vinyard, the White Mountains and the pirates:
From Dungeon Magazine #2. These places will not fit wery well in other places (a not so broad mountain chain, with a coastline facing west), so I put them here.
4) The Taneilim Kingdom:
From the Book of Wondrous Inventions. It's a kingdom of barbaric elves. I made an odd connection between them and the humanoids that live in Oenkmar: in both places it is shown an odd magical artifact similar to a radio. It may be that this "radio", that was built in Taneilim, was stealed by the ogres of Ogremoor and then brought to Oenkmar over the centuries.
I placed the kingdom of Taneilim along the elvish migration route, and also along the direction of Wogar's migration.
5) Tarlyon elves:
This is a clan of civilized elves that lives in a valley described in CM5. They have a Tree of Life (possibly not a mother Tree). This valley is sometimes visited by Gyerians coming from the west, while many humans inhabits the south. The most probable place for this clanhold is north of the Black Mountains. Thus, the gyerians inhabits the northern plains of Hule.
It is possible to connect the Tarlyons to the small migration from the Sylvan Realm that brings a group of elves in Graakhalia in 610BC. The Tarlyons may be the main group of the migration that stopped near the mountains, bringing with them a branch of the Tree of Life od the Sylvan Realm.
6) Original position of the Taymora, Urduk and Ethengar people.
From PC3, CoM, GAZ12. Taymora and Urduks are both neathar people coming from the north. So they both may have left the original neathar region around 2500BC, to settle in different parts of the Known World.From GAZ12 we know that the Ethengarians lived in a grassland at the border of Blackmoor civilizatrion, that freezed after the Cataclysm. The Ethengarians roamed for 1000 years in the continent (so they are native of Brun) before settling in the steppes where they now live.
In my opinion the best positions about these populations are the ones I showed in the map.
7) Northern Gnomes:
From the Book of Wondrous Inventions. We just know that they live in the frozen plains of the north, where they built suitable machines able to skate on the ice (and only on the ice). I placed them west of Norwold, in a region that is frozen accordingly to the general Mystara map.
8) Gronmak e Othwa:
The Othwa are goblins, the Gronmak are ogres. They are described in the introduction of the "World in Flames" article of B.Heard that is found in the Vaults. They live in the central Brun and the Othwa are followers of Wogar and should live a little norther than the Gronmak (who does not follow Wogar). I placed them in a region where the Wogar migration crossed another humanoid movement, so that the two different clans can come to live close to each other.
Moreover, we know that the Othwa are sourrounded by other minor tribes of goblins, that I added in the map.
10) Cryion:
From AC9. They are big furry humanoids that inhabits the subartic regions, possibly near to rivers and lakes. They live of hunting, trapping and fishing and they are nomadic. I placed them in a wide area just south of Hyborea, in a region rich of water. The Cryion migrate south during the winter, to raid and trade with the nearby settlements.
11) Wildwood:
From AC1: It is the balce of birth of an elvish NPG (Juno from Wildwood). In her background it is said tha Wildwood is the thickest and oldest forest of the continent, so it seems very reasonable to me to locate Wildwood in the center of the great Forest of Midlands, not very far from the Ilsundal migration route.
The elf speaks the ogre language, so I tought that a clan of ogre lived nearby (I placed them north of Wildwood).
12) Western Forest (AC1):
Again from AC1, it is the place of birth of another NPC (Madoc Gwynn, a warrior). We just know that the Western Forest is far, and it is placed "where the mountains drop in the woods". I placed it east of the Endworld Line.
Well, that's all. I hope it may be useful. ;)
Speaking as someone who has very few of the old Dungeon modules, any information about these extra tidbits of Mystaran goodness (yes, I know most of it was written before the Known World became Mystara, but...) is always appreciated. I like it even more when someone puts it all together so nicely, too!
Geoff
As with Geoff, I don't have all the modules involved and even with those I do own, it is hard to get the full overview without such a visualization.
* I like the fact that the Qauriks, Cryons and Gyerians were included? What made you place the Gyerians in that specific spot?
* Why isn't Orange cover B3 included? It covers the southern part of the Adri Varma plateau.
* I find it interesting that the Ethengars were located in the north west at one point. Could they be related to the humans in service of Moorkroft?
* I would have liked to see the map extended slightly to the south, so I could see how it all reltated to the Savage Coast. Too much to ask? ;)
* Why isn't the information from the Masters Set Map included?
Great stuff!
Håvard
Here are a few counterpoints/alternative placements to consider, and questions that I'd like to know more about:
Ilsundal's Migration: There is no support for the majority exodus going into Wendar/Northern Wildlands. Once past the Black Mountains/AVP juncture, I'd suggest they go directly to the point where you have written "Savage Elves". [From that point back into Wildlands/Wendar is the presumed route for the Genalleth for Gaz F, but obviously that part's not canonical]
I'd place the Wildwood label where you have the Western Forest. That location would have been temperate forest both before and after the Great Rain of Fire. Also, remember that the Western Forest is stated as being on the western side of a mountain range/spur not necessarily on the western side of the continent. Directional labels are more often a local reference.
I'd place Tarlyon on the Endworld Line. Tarylon uses Snow Pearls to help keep its Tree healthy. I presume from the name, that Tarylon is in a region where the climate is cold. A more northernly locale seems appropriate. Gyerians also seem "wrong" for the region. All canonically placed winged/feathered folks seem to originate in the far west (ee'aar, enduk, flying lizardmen, feathered dragons, hippogriffs, manticores, etc), and it would be nice to keep a thematic approach. [Of course this leads to the larger problem of harpies and fanaere who belong to this group and joined Serraine during construction. Any ideas?]
The beastmen migration routes from Gaz10 are at odds with the textural description if one assumes there was a planetary shift. [The perenial source of canon map boobooes]. They were pushed into the "arctic", and would have to move south on a modern Mystara map, not along the (today) Hyborean coastline.
Do you have a page # for indicating that the Earthshaker had visited Glantri before the events of CM4? Milos indicated that he was awell-connected with the princes of Glantri and the emperor of Thyatis (though it was left open that he could have been chest-puffing), but I don't recallany mention of the machine making its way to Glantri.
For Urduks, I'd suggest they wrap around the Black Mountains' western side, beginning somewhere east of the Wildwood label.
Taymora: where was it mention they came from the north?
Ethengars: it's possible this is a route, but possibly too far north in starting. [It is one under consideration for the Kaarjalan peoples]. Another is Ethengars crossing the Isle of Dawn during the glacial migrations. This area was part of the "northern wastes" prior to the Great Rain of Fire, and could have maintained this status for 2-3 centuries during which the axis wobbled into its present alignment. [Unless you want you axis shift fast
) ] What can you tell us about the groups and regions presented in Dungeon #2, and 6-7 (Tortles of the Purple Sage)? What extra is there to learn about the Draya or the Chaotic Sisterhood? Also, did Tortles of the Purple Sage include any mapping?
-OldDawg
Up in the NW you have "Vyvern Riders." Is that supposed to be Wyvern Riders? And what is their source?
Thanks,
OldDawg
Travis
[You know I had already seen it, don't you? ;) ]A quick reply to one of OldDawg's points (I've worked a lot along with LoZompatore on the Italian MMB to humanoid migrations):
The beastmen migration routes from Gaz10 are at odds with the textural description if one assumes there was a planetary shift. [The perenial source of canon map boobooes]. They were pushed into the "arctic", and would have to move south on a modern Mystara map, not along the (today) Hyborean coastline.
To say the truth, the map posted by LoZompatore shows the humanoid migrations from Urzud, beginning after BC 2000 (after the so-called "Wars of the Steel"). So I think this time there aren't problems regarding the planetary shift, which happens in BC 3000. ;)
Regarding the Beastmen migrations proper perhaps the route of the migration should be adjusted to reflect their voyage to the arctic lands. IMHO it would be best to erase at all the Beastmen migrations of BC 3200-3000 from the map above, to cause the minor possible amount of confusion.
Also, did Tortles of the Purple Sage include any mapping?
-OldDawg
The Tortles of the Purple Sage included a map of the area in X9 expanded to the north. Here's a partially completed map I've been working on. The ruined city in the northeast is Bylot, the southern city is Yazak, the western city is Dravya.
Gyerians also seem "wrong" for the region. All canonically placed winged/feathered folks seem to originate in the far west (ee'aar, enduk, flying lizardmen, feathered dragons, hippogriffs, manticores, etc), and it would be nice to keep a thematic approach. [Of course this leads to the larger problem of harpies and fanaere who belong to this group and joined Serraine during construction. Any ideas?]
IIRC Faenare are specifically noted to have settlements in some of the mountains of the Brokenlands and elsewhere in the Known World. Ofcourse, they are flying creatures, so it is possible that they have an origin further west, but have migrated to the Known World centuries ago. It would also feel odd to decide at this point that there aren't any Harpies in the Known World. I'm sure hundreds of campaigns have used them in KW environments. Again, their origins could be of elsewhere.
There was a Gyerian featured in one of the novels. The one featuring the Shadow Elf children. I can't remember it's name off-hand. It established that Gyerians are known to exist in the Known World and on the Isle of Dawn. It doesn't say anything about bigger settlements though. I'd think Ethengar or the Adri Varma and Athruagin Plateaus could be suitable environments for these creatures.
OldDawg: Do you see any other inconsistencies between the F Gaz line and this map, besides what you have already mentioned?
Havard
I hope I'll be able to do so during next week. Anyway I'll have time for sure during the next weekend (Feb, 17-18). So, post any question you have in the meantime ;)
Just some very fast answers:
- Vyvern riders = Wyvern riders (sorry for the misspelling, I was thinking in Italian). The source is the CM7 module (they are the elite troops of Moorkroft)
- The map of Dungeon Magazione#6-7 (Tortles of the Purple Sage adventrue) is exactly as the excellent map Rimx is drawing.
- In my vision of pre cataclysmic Mystara (see my topics about Blackmoor and pre cataclismic maps at Vaults) the northern Norwold is still an arctic area, so the Beastmens are able to migrate there when pursued by the Blackmoor's crusades (as per HW migration map, which shows the return migration from northern Norwold as happening in BC2900). Even if this region does not correspond to the true Hyborea, this may be the correct answer to the question about the humanoids moving in a colder climate while fleeing from the crusaders.
- About earthshaker visiting Glantri and the Taymora coming from the north I'm quite sure about these facts. I do not have correct references but I'll provide as soon as possible ;)
- The Gyerians live west of the Tarlyons from CM5 info. I placed the Tarlyons in the northern slopes of the Black Mountains so the Gyerian territories happens to be placed in northern Hule. I'll do some more remarks about Tarlyon elves' position as soon as possible. By the way, the Gyerian cited by Havard was named "Hey you"; it appears in the Mystaran novel "Son of Dawn".
- I'll check the Ilsundal migration north of the AVP (I tought I copied the route of GAZ5, but I may be wrong) and also the descriptions given for Wildwood and the Western Forest, maybe you are right about moving them.
- I didn't include any info on the Adri Varma because I already made a topic about it (see in the Vaults): if you like I can include also these info
- Prolonging the map to include the Savage Coast is certainly possible in a short time. I'll see what can I do about it ;)
- About the Ethengarians movements, remember that they roamed the continent for 1000 years (GAZ12), so I suppose that they left many offshots in other regions of the area...
- What do you (havard) mean with the info of Master's set map? Do you mean the political borders?
IIRC Faenare are specifically noted to have settlements in some of the mountains of the Brokenlands and elsewhere in the Known World. Ofcourse, they are flying creatures, so it is possible that they have an origin further west, but have migrated to the Known World centuries ago.
As Havard notes, the Faenare and Harpies are flyers, so there really isn't anything keeping them (or other flyers) from being anywhere in Mystara that we want them. They certainly should have less problems than the more landbound creatures, who have nevertheless scattered all over the world themselves (which would include Gyerians, as non-flyers).
- What do you (havard) mean with the info of Master's set map? Do you mean the political borders?
Yeah. Actually, comparing it to the Master's map replica on pandius ( http://pandius.com/master-outer-world.png ) There are only two regions that are somewhat problematic; Southold and The Empire of Dorfin IV.
Southold is most likely just an old (Thyatian) name for the Savage Coast.
According to Haldemar's accounts in VotPA, the Empire of Dorfin was just a joke set up by some Gnomes. What if Haldemar got it slightly wrong and there was a little more to the story.
Dorfin could be linked to the creators of the Earthshaker which you place in the Black Mountains. So there could actually be an Empire of Dofin, but obviously the size is blown ot of proportions, probably due to gnomish bragging or even as a joke taken a bit too seriously by the Thyatian cartographers.
Thoughts?
The LB, at least, survives in part as the LB Trading Co. in Cimmaron County.
I think they were just shoved into its history, along with the rest of module X9, which is (like module X6) now retconned into Mystara's past.
The LB, at least, survives in part as the LB Trading Co. in Cimmaron County.
They were also modified heavily. Basically, the three aligned societies survive as the three Orders of the Inheritors. According to the Savage Coast book, the three societies have existed for decades on the Savage Coast.
They lost importance in the years before 1000 AC, but reformed as the inheritor Order in the decade 1000-1010 AC.
The Lawful Brotherhood (or Brotherhood of Order) evolved into the Order of the Ruby and the LB Trading Company. It originated in the City-States, and their outposts were located in Cimarron and Texeiras (but the latter was abandoned by 1000 AC), and later all along the coast, up to Dunwick, the Orc's Head and Richland. After 939, Almarron conquered Neuva Esperanza and forced the Brotherhood into hiding, except for the LB Trading Company.
The Order of the Flame was once the Chaotic Alliance, the Friends of Freedom and the Chaotic Sisterhood. The Friends of Freedom, specifically, existed in the Savage Baronies.
The Crimson Inheritors joined the Neutral Alliance.
Note that all three societies were present in the Savage Baronies, and the the diffusion of the Lawful Brotherhood does not match with what derived by Zompatore from X9.
The route of the Earthshaker and the gnomes:
This machine was discovered in the "mountains of the west", then it was brought to Glantri and here it was teleported to Norwold by the wizard princes. Here is the citation:
CM4, page 10:
Milos discovered Earthshaker on one of his collecting expeditions for the princes of Glantri, deep in the wild mountains far to the west. He persuaded the gnomes living in the behemot to return with him to Glantri. Once there, the princes, in their wisdom (and fear of each other), refused to buy the device, ordering him instead to take it from their lands. He did manage to bargain for a way to magically transport it, so as not to cause destruction and ruin as he traveled.
To answer to the havard's idea of having a reduced kingdom of Dorfin IV, a possible hint may be the fact that the "wild mountains far to the west" may well refer also to the Endworld Line. So the gnomish clan that inhabits the machine might be an offshot of the gnomish empire of Dorfin.
Consider also that the Earthshaker (from CM4) "consumes a lot of coal and water" in order to move, so it cannot be found in a desertic area (thus excluding the arid side of the Black Mountains). The Endworld Line, with its forests on the eastern side and possibly with its many rivers that flow into the Yalu may be a good choice for the original placement of the Earthshaker. I preferred the Black Mountains because they were nearer to the Borean Valley, where we know that Blackmoor had its outposts.
Another hint about a kingdom of gnomes may come from the Dragonlord Trilogy, in the first book. Here it is described the fleeing of the gnomes from their besieged city of Torkyn Falls (in the Three Fires Volcanos area, Boldavian mountains) around AC500. One of the gnomes (that are fleeing northward) says to Thelvin:
I don't know if we will ever meet again. This land has not been kind to us these past few years, with our cities falling one after another. We have strongholds in other lands, places were our race is flourishing. I think you know the place I mean."
This palce is never specified, but it may be connected to the empire of Dorfin or to the "Northern Gnomes" of the map above.
The Taymora coming from the north:
From PC3, page 41 of the "Sea peoples book":
During the ancient days following the destruction of Blackmoor, bands of humans calling themselves the Taymora moved south. Arriving at the fertile plains surrounding the southern sea, they established settlements along the cliffs and in the plains. They traded with the Verdier and Meditor elves...
Consider that the Taymora should be of Neathar stock, given this sentence of PC3 (page 28 of the "Adventures book", end of the first column):
Anyone who examines the doors sees that they are angraved with scenes of pastoral life. Happy, smiling humans carry baskets of fruit and follow teams of oxen as they plow fields. The dress is reminiscent of that worn in ancient Greece.
So I connected them to the Neathars living north of the Black Mountains, and I supposed that they came from this region in 2500BC, possibly with the same migration movement that brought the Urduks in the Great Waste area (from CoM they entered the region in 2500BC, too).
The three aligned alliances:
The infrormation Agathokles pointed out about the story of the three alliances are correct. It is possible to reconstruct their history from some canon references in SC sourcebook and in the X9:
The first modern colonists to come to the Claw Peninsula actually arrived a couple of years before the Ispan wave (which means AC902).
These colonists were members of the Brotherhood of Order (also known as the Lawful Brotherhood), the philosophical "ancestors" of the Inheritors of the Order of the Ruby. The Brotherhood originated in the City-States on the other side of the Gulf of Hule. Its colonists located the first Brotherhood outpost at the present site of Old Fort, at the tip of the peninsula.
These colonists were soon followed by shiploads of adventurers from many different parts of the world, particularly Ispans. The first Ispan settlement, then in the lands claimed by Narvaez, was Nueva Esperanza (New Hope), which eventually became known as Smokestone City.Nueva Esperanza declared independence three years after the founding of Narvaez and was allowed to secede without a fight. The people of Nueva Esperanza got to know those of the Brotherhood, and they began a peaceful trading relationship. They also signed a mutual defense pact, and soon Lawful Brotherhood trading posts, defended by Nueva Esperanzan warriors, appeared along the coast. Occasional influxes of colonists from the City-States, and of disaffected Baronials from the north, caused rapid growth along the Savage Coast. Native tortles and dwarves, and a few halfling settlers from far to the east, also joined this odd alliance.
From X9 we know that these three alliances come from the Savage Baronies (from the city of Slagovich, in particular), where they were called Brotherhood of Order, Brotherhood of Light and Chaotic Brotherhood, respectively.
Almarrón attacked Nueva Esperanza in 939 and quickly took over the entire Claw Peninsula. Some of the Brotherhood of Order went into hiding, while a small sect became the LB Trading Company and maintained many of the group's trading posts.
999 The first vial of crimson essence is produced by an alchemist in Saragón. The secret spreads to a group of adventurers who become the first Inheritors. Some of the Inheritors rise to power in both the Brotherhood of Order and the Friends of Freedom. To balance them, other Inheritors join the Neutral Alliance.
1001 The Inheritors face internal conflicts and reorganize the aligned societies (the Brotherhood of Order, the Neutral Alliance, and the Friends of Freedom) into the three Orders of the Inheritors (the Order of the Ruby, the Order of Crimson, and the Order of the Flame).
So the lawful brotherhood seemed to exist as a unitarian organization just between AC902 and AC939, then it splitted into several different orders. X9 module and Dungeon Magazine #6-7 adventure, which is related to X9 references, might be set in this period. Otherwise you may think that the three groups described in the Tortle of the Purple Sage adventure are some offshots of the original alliances that have lost most of their ties with the main seats of their orders. Now (AC1000) they are fighting for supremacy in the western Yazak steppes and in the Bylot Hills area.
Notice, however, that in DMG #6-7 the Richland Trading Post (a small community described also in SC sourcebook) has about just 200 people, while in SC it is a thriving community of some 2300 people. This suggests to place the Tortle of Purple Sage adventure in the past with respect of AC1000.
Just to clarify the multiple names of the three alliances, here is the correct matching of the various names, from SC sourcebook:
Lawful Inheritors belong to the Order of the Ruby, the organization once known as the Brotherhood of Order or the Lawful Brotherhood.
Chaotic Inheritors belong to the Order of the Flame, once called the Friends of Freedom, the Chaotic Alliance, and (in some places) the Chaotic Sisterhood.
Neutral Inheritors belong to the Order of Crimson, once known as the Neutral Alliance.
To answer to the havard's idea of having a reduced kingdom of Dorfin IV, a possible hint may be the fact that the "wild mountains far to the west" may well refer also to the Endworld Line. So the gnomish clan that inhabits the machine might be an offshot of the gnomish empire of Dorfin.
Consider also that the Earthshaker (from CM4) "consumes a lot of coal and water" in order to move, so it cannot be found in a desertic area (thus excluding the arid side of the Black Mountains). The Endworld Line, with its forests on the eastern side and possibly with its many rivers that flow in the Yalu may be a good choice for the original placement of the Earthshaker. I preferred the Black Mountains because they were nearer to the Borean Valley, where we know that Blackmoor had its outposts.
Another hint about a kingdom of gnomes may come from the Dragonlord Trilogy, in the first book. Here it is described the fleeing of the gnomes from their besieged city of Torkyn Falls (in the Three Fires Volcanos area, Boldavian mountains) around AC500. One of the gnomes (that are fleeing northward) says to Thelvin:
I don't know if we will ever meet again. This land has not been kind to us these past few years, with our cities falling one after another. We have strongholds in other lands, places were our race is flourishing. I think you know the place I mean."
This palce is never specified, but it may be connected to the empire of Dorfin or to the "Northern Gnomes" of the map above.
I like the idea of a smaller Empire of Dorfin in the Endworld line. Whether it is related to the Earthsaker or not can be open to debate. What is known about the White Mountain? Perhaps Dofin's relam could be found north of that? It would also be interesting to have a dwarf realm in the area. Ofcourse, I think there are way too few Dwarven realms on Mystara and IMC I have dwarves in the Black mountains as well...
As for the reference from Dragonlord. Couldn't that be about Traladara?
Havard
Any chance of seeing a map integrating the two?
Havard
Looking at the map in the original post of this thread, how large is the area covered by the Idrisian Sphere countries (From the FGaz series)?
Any chance of seeing a map integrating the two?
Havard
Here's a quick mock up of the area from a map I'm working on based of Zendrolion's Norwold & Known World maps and an overlay of the Companion map. The labels and borders are an approximation comparing the two maps.
Here's a quick mock up of the area from a map I'm working on based of Zendrolion's Norwold & Known World maps and an overlay of the Companion map. The labels and borders are an approximation comparing the two maps.
That's pretty close to right. I think the left and top edges around the Western Alliance need to come in a little bit, but not much.
Speaking on this matter, I have been compiling the existing GazF maps into a larger 8mph work for trail maps. My question for you guys is, do you want trail maps that run long N-S or E-W? And how large a file (byte-wise and physical) do you want?
Right now I'm thinking of a frame that runs from Heldann's southern border up to either the Shonak Tribelands or the Kaganus River, and from just west of the Menascha Swamp to just east of Emyn Lethir in the Wildlands. About 1/2 of the Western Alliance gets cut, but that's unavoidable without committing to a toplogy for the AVP and the eastern Midlands.
-OldDawg
Here's a quick mock up of the area from a map I'm working on based of Zendrolion's Norwold & Known World maps and an overlay of the Companion map. The labels and borders are an approximation comparing the two maps.
Thanks RimX! This was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Great for visualizing where the different regions are in relation to eachother. Makes me wonder though, what's going on in the area just north of the Adri Varma, or does the Wildlands extend further west?
By the way, do you notice how interesting this perspective is on Mystara? I have always felt that a different view of the world would be interesting as an alternative to what is shown on the X1 map and the Master Set map. Showing both sides of the Alphatian Sea for instance, makes the world appear much more lively...
Havard
That's pretty close to right. I think the left and top edges around the Western Alliance need to come in a little bit, but not much.
Speaking on this matter, I have been compiling the existing GazF maps into a larger 8mph work for trail maps. My question for you guys is, do you want trail maps that run long N-S or E-W? And how large a file (byte-wise and physical) do you want?
Right now I'm thinking of a frame that runs from Heldann's southern border up to either the Shonak Tribelands or the Kaganus River, and from just west of the Menascha Swamp to just east of Emyn Lethir in the Wildlands. About 1/2 of the Western Alliance gets cut, but that's unavoidable without committing to a toplogy for the AVP and the eastern Midlands.
Trail Maps is a great idea! N-S Trail Maps would follow the model of the TSR ones so that would be going with tradition, though I could sea how E-W versions would perhaps be more interesting as it would better show the countries in relation to oneanother...
Havard
I didn't look like the goblinoids of the Yazak steppes were noted. Somewhere in the Savage Coast books it mentions that those steppes were originally the home of nomadic lupins and rakasta who were then pushed out by goblinoids. Seems to me that the yellow blots labeled with (4) and (5), possibly (6), would instead be filled with a goblinoid tribe associated with those in the Yazak Steppes.
With the cultural similarity between the Yazak goblinoids and Ethengar, surely there could be a link by a migration in the past?
By the way, do you notice how interesting this perspective is on Mystara? I have always felt that a different view of the world would be interesting as an alternative to what is shown on the X1 map and the Master Set map. Showing both sides of the Alphatian Sea for instance, makes the world appear much more lively...
Havard
How about this one Havard?
How about this one Havard?
Great Hugin!
It would perhaps also be nice to include the Known World, extending the map as far south as to include Minrothad and Ierendi.
Havard
Great Hugin!
It would perhaps also be nice to include the Known World, extending the map as far south as to include Minrothad and Ierendi.
Havard
No problem. It'll have to wait until I get home though.
