Raistlin at the height of his power? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Raistlin at the height of his power?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Feb 11, 2007 15:14:13 Does anyone know where I can find the stats for Raistlin at the height of his power? I mean after he became Fistandantilus. And if they don't exist, what level wizard, wizard of high sorcery, and archmage he should be. Thank you very much.
#2
cam_banks
Feb 11, 2007 17:32:34 Check out Legends of the Twins for his statistics as of the beginning of War of the Twins - he's wizard 7/Wizard of High Sorcery (Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5 and has the Master of the Tower template from Towers of High Sorcery. This gives him a CR 28. HE's not a minmaxed optimized character as many people have taken time to tell me. After that point, he goes off the scale.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 12, 2007 7:04:34 Cam, are the stats for the Bloodstone ever going to be released?
#4
cam_banks
Feb 12, 2007 7:57:10
Cam, are the stats for the Bloodstone ever going to be released?

That's one of those things that may or may not ever see the light, especially since it's such a plot device. There's no good mechanical way to properly reflect what happened to Fistandantilus and Raistlin, despite what may have been published in older editions of the game. To be honest, the Bloodstone was Tracy and Margaret's novelized explanation of the magic jar spell being used in the setting, so if you're really keen on using the Bloodstone in your campaign I'd go that route.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
the_jake
Feb 19, 2007 18:04:00
Check out Legends of the Twins for his statistics as of the beginning of War of the Twins - he's wizard 7/Wizard of High Sorcery (Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5 and has the Master of the Tower template from Towers of High Sorcery. This gives him a CR 28. HE's not a minmaxed optimized character as many people have taken time to tell me. After that point, he goes off the scale.

What do you mean after that point? Was this his stats at the start of the Legends and not the end?
#6
cam_banks
Feb 19, 2007 19:55:26
What do you mean after that point? Was this his stats at the start of the Legends and not the end?

They are intended to represent his stats at the beginning of War of the Twins, prior to the Dwarfgate War.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 19, 2007 21:54:24 So he could have been higher level when he entered the Abyss?
#8
clarkvalentine
Feb 19, 2007 21:56:03 He was off the scale at that point - not well represented by D&D stats.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 19, 2007 22:03:59 So when he comes through the Portal in Summer Flame, what would his stats look like?
#10
cam_banks
Feb 19, 2007 22:12:56
So when he comes through the Portal in Summer Flame, what would his stats look like?

I know I'm not going to attempt to write them up.

Cheers,
Cam
#11
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2007 10:11:31 So they would be more than his Legends of the Twins stats?
#12
cam_banks
Feb 20, 2007 10:54:13
So they would be more than his Legends of the Twins stats?

That's what I'm saying, yes.

Cheers,
Cam
#13
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2007 20:06:30 Tee hee, tee hee. More uber than even the ubermensh.
#14
zombiegleemax
Mar 10, 2007 15:59:20 The only way I can think of even coming close to resembling his power would be to give him the Wish ability at will... that just about comes close to the kind of power he was wielding against Takhisis.

It's best to just leave him as "unspeakably powerful" - just like you wouldn't try providing stats for Paladine, the Master of Past and Present is simply beyond numbers.
#15
zombiegleemax
Mar 10, 2007 16:58:28
The only way I can think of even coming close to resembling his power would be to give him the Wish ability at will... that just about comes close to the kind of power he was wielding against Takhisis.

No. There should be a little thing on his character sheet that says,
" Activate Raistlin and automatically win. "
The only possible way of matching Raistlin's power.
#16
zombiegleemax
Mar 10, 2007 17:40:48 What benefit is there to being hte Master of Past and Present or is it merely an honorific title?
#17
zombiegleemax
Mar 10, 2007 18:02:51
What benefit is there to being hte Master of Past and Present or is it merely an honorific title?

It means that you are Master of the Past and Present. I'm sure there is a major benifit to this, however I don't know what it is. It is an honorific title as well as having practical implications.
#18
zombiegleemax
Mar 11, 2007 18:59:12 And those are?
#19
elondir
Mar 19, 2007 13:21:33 Only the Master of Past and Present knows. And mybe old Voldy.
#20
zombiegleemax
Mar 19, 2007 16:07:37 Voldy?
#21
havard
Mar 19, 2007 16:39:02
It means that you are Master of the Past and Present. I'm sure there is a major benifit to this, however I don't know what it is. It is an honorific title as well as having practical implications.

It seemed to be a significant step on Raistlin's path to Godhood, so IMO there should be a major benefit. Maybe something like the FR "Chosen of Mystra" whatever that does. I doubt Raist pulled off that business with Fistandantalus just for the XPs... ;)
#22
zombiegleemax
Mar 19, 2007 16:55:08
And those are?

In the Legends gaming source book, the title is merely honorific. There were no official bonuses given for it. However the novels hint at greater control over the River of Time. In Dragons of Summer Flame (pg. 379 in my book) Raistlin states "I was once known as the Master of the Present and the Past. Time holds no contraints for me. The river's waters carry me wherever I want to go" in response to Usha's inqury about the Idra. Recall at this time that Raistlin had returned to the mortal plane bereft of power. Raistlin's ability to travel through time without magic indicates that its more of an ability associated with him being the Master of the Past and the Present.

Other hints of his mastery over time can also be seen in War of Souls when he used the River of Time to find where Takhisis had stolen the world. This accomplishment was something even the gods had difficulty with.
#23
zombiegleemax
Mar 19, 2007 18:08:57 It would have been nice if the Legends sourebook would have spelled it out. Maybe they will spell what it means out in the Summer of Chaos sourcebook if it is ever written.
#24
zombiegleemax
Mar 20, 2007 17:13:43 Raistlin's stats in the Legends source book unfortunately represents him after he has become Master of Past and Present. There are no bonuses spelled out in the source book because the game designer did not believe it should come with bonuses; if I recall correctly, the designer (Cam Banks) made a comment in the dragonlance.com message board that, to him, the title was merely honorific.
#25
cam_banks
Mar 20, 2007 18:53:00 It's not so much that it's honorific, it's that Margaret Weis herself prefers for many things about Raistlin to remain unexplained or not written down as game stats. These are, in essence, plot device elements unique to Raistlin and not something we chose to represent in his write-up (which is from the beginning of War of the Twins).

Cheers,
Cam
#26
darthsylver
Mar 20, 2007 21:17:00 The title of "The Master of the Past and the present" is not exactly just an honorific. What one must remember is that the only time the "benefits" have ever really been mentioned is when Raistlin unlocked the tower of Palanthas, other than that it was just a tittle that he acquired by following in the footsteps of Fistandantilus. He did this as the curse would only allow said tower to be unlocked by the master of the past and the present, but what most tend to forget is how the curse was placed there originally. We know by the stories depicted in the chronicles series that turse was placed suring the lost battle s just prior to the cataclycsm by a black robe mage who threw himself from the top of the tower. Now this is where we get into the realm of cannon or non-cannon (as some people say that if it was written by Weis or Hickman then it is not cannon) as Chris Pierson gives us the identity and some back-story on Rannoch and his motivationsfor doing what he did, hence we come back to the beginning. Yes I mean Fistandantilus. Fistandantilus knew that he was planning to assault the dark queen. Now any smart wizard would know that there is no guarantee to surviving much less winning this fight so they would have prepared for the inevitable by planning on returning after he was killed as a spirit who can posses a person's body. In short the title of "The master of teh past and the present" had everything to do with Fistandantilus and nothing to do with Raistlin, he just happened to be the unlucky sap who gave in to Fistandantilus's temptations. It was Fistandantilus's perversion that eventually caused Raistlin to adopt Fistandantilus's plan to attack the dark queen.

So to make my point. The tittle was created and fullfiled by the same person and the only benefit was to unlock the curse by stating that (in my words) "This tower will remain locked until I return in the body of another who is a master of magic."

It is kinda of like stating that "This door will remain locked until my key key and any other key are inserted into the lock" and then burying your key in a location known only to you and waiting until you find someone that you can manipulate into doing what you want them to do.
#27
zombiegleemax
Mar 20, 2007 23:25:33
It's not so much that it's honorific, it's that Margaret Weis herself prefers for many things about Raistlin to remain unexplained or not written down as game stats.

So eh Cam ... does this mean there are really some additional powers that Raistlin has that are not represented by his game stats...kinda like hidden/enigmatic powers that arent to be disclosed...but are still in essence there? :D
#28
zombiegleemax
Mar 21, 2007 0:15:21 One of the other benefits Darth was able to go back and forth through time like he did in DoSF.
#29
darthsylver
Mar 22, 2007 19:45:26 Treymordin, are you are talking about Dragons of Summer Flame? And if so what page so I could research that a little more. Because I thought he was able to go back an forth along the timeline because he knew the correct spells.
#30
zombiegleemax
Mar 22, 2007 22:42:26 Dont have the book in front of me, but it is when he meets Usha for the first time and talks to her about her not being Palin's cousin.
#31
darthsylver
Mar 24, 2007 21:07:56 Thank you, I think I can go from there because that should be not to far past where she arrives on the mainland.
#32
zombiegleemax
Mar 24, 2007 22:22:00 It is more towards the end.
#33
darthsylver
Mar 25, 2007 22:40:18 Yes it is on page 379. And while it is a beautiful story, I say it is all lies. Let us think about this. Raistlin wants Usha to believe that he is not her father, for Raistlin is very good at reading people and their emotions and can tell that both Usha and Palin have feelings for each other and would never get involved with each other if they were related, not to mention that if the word got out that Usha really was Raistlin's daughter then she would become a hunted person by both sides, so he makes up a cockamimy story about how he can travel the river's waters and creates a story that will satisfy her need to know who her parents were. But did you notice that he assured that she had absolutely no knowledge of her parents before he told her the story of her parent's death and how he supposedly got that information? I still say that the only benefit that being the master of the past and the present was the ability to break the curse of the tower. There are no other benefits, for we have certainly never seen any benefits in the novels, games, or sourcebooks that relate to the title other than being able to unlock the tower.

Now it is possible that Raistlin did walk the waters and discover the truth of the story that he told Usha about her parents, but it certainly was not due to any title, and was probably facilitated through the magic of other wizards, because, oh and Raistlin himself states this, "I was once known as the Master of the Past and the Present" not I am the Master of the Past and Present, which implies that he no longer has that title and therefore could not travel the rivers waters (even if he supposedly could have as the Master).

Now of course one could try to argue that Dragons of Summer Flame or the Story "Raistlin's Daughter" is more cannon than the other but both were written (or at least co-written) by Margaret Weis. So there we are at a stalemate, so I guess we will just have to wait and see.
#34
zombiegleemax
Mar 26, 2007 7:58:40 No one ever really took that storey seriously, only the kender, it was Tasslehoff who told Usha she was Raistlin's daughter.
#35
darthsylver
Mar 26, 2007 19:41:39 It doesn't really mater if Usha is Raistlin's daughter or not, but the fact that he tells Usha that he can travel even after he doesn't have any power after leaving is the relevant fact.

Raistlin was infamous for his being able to fool people into believing what he wanted them too even before he gained the magic. So once again Raisltin has woven a sleight of hand illusion and he has fooled some more.
#36
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2007 8:34:42 That does not necessarily hold true in this instance however.
#37
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2007 19:36:05
It doesn't really mater if Usha is Raistlin's daughter or not, but the fact that he tells Usha that he can travel even after he doesn't have any power after leaving is the relevant fact.

Raistlin was infamous for his being able to fool people into believing what he wanted them too even before he gained the magic. So once again Raisltin has woven a sleight of hand illusion and he has fooled some more.

Haha,
Well I DOUBT that Usha would be Raistlin's daughter...uhm...otherwise we'll have an incestual issue here...and I doubt the authors would intend that. And while I definitely agree that Raistlin isnt above lying to get his way, he has no reason to lie to Usha; besides that, the book also stated that a part of Raistlin would have LIKED to have had that kind of love. Finally, Raistlin was also able to navigate the River of Time in the War of Souls to connect the worlds....so it seems highly improbable that Raistlin lied about traveling back in time to discover Usha's past.
#38
darthsylver
Mar 27, 2007 23:04:07 Originally posted by Zyriath
Finally, Raistlin was also able to navigate the River of Time in the War of Souls to connect the worlds....so it seems highly improbable that Raistlin lied about traveling back in time to discover Usha's past.

I thought that it was explained that the river of time was broken, hence when the device of time journeying was used during the war of the souls, it did not work right.

Besides it was not Raistlin's supposed ability to travel the Rivers of Time, it was Tasselhoff's voice saying words of magic that called out to Raistlin that allowed him to find the world.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that Usha really is Raistlin's daughter (even though she can predict the future through painting and all), just that the story he spun for her is a load of hogwash, horsepooh, or a pile of manure.

Edited for Treymordin's post below.
#39
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2007 23:07:07 The incident you refer to came about in the War of Souls. Raistlin talked to Usha in Summer Flame.
#40
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2007 23:07:13 The way I understood it was Raistlin would gain his powers back once he left Krynn... I could be very very wrong.
#41
darthsylver
Mar 27, 2007 23:17:28 The previous post was in response to Zyriath's post as he was referring to Raistlin's ability (to supposedly travel the rivers of time) to find Krynn during the War of Souls.

I know this is a very interesting and possibly confusing topic, but please Trey, try and keep up. Just joking.
#42
zombiegleemax
Mar 27, 2007 23:20:57 I could see Hiddikuel and Shinare with the pact domain as they are the gods of business, so to speak. Mishakel,according to HOOS, also have access to the Liberation domain.
#43
darthsylver
Mar 27, 2007 23:46:09 Sorry Trey, I had accidentally posted that on this thread, I have moved that over the "Raistlin as a Deity" thread, which you already know because you have already responded to that thread when I have posted this reply. Again sorry I got a little mixed up.

I had thought that too at first, but there were spells at 3rd and 8th levels that had to do with death. And they have always said that people made deals with Chemosh for "everlasting life" but that these deals always turned out for the worst with regards for the deal-maker.
#44
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2007 6:18:08 OK, I will post on the other thread!:P
#45
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2007 21:48:20
Besides it was not Raistlin's supposed ability to travel the Rivers of Time, it was Tasselhoff's voice saying words of magic that called out to Raistlin that allowed him to find the world.

Edited for Treymordin's post below.

The kenders use of magical device helped Raistlin allowed Raistlint to find the world (188 to 191 in the hardback DoVM) but Raistlin did far more than that in DoVM.

Quote from page 439:

"My task was not easy," Raistlin said. "The currents of chaos swirl about the universe. The magic is wayward and unwieldly. I no more set my hands upon it than it slides through my fingers. When the kender used the device, I managed to seize hold of him and wrench him back into the past, where the winds of chaos blow less fiercely.....Finally, I carried him to the present. Past and present are now linked..."

Not only did Raistlin find the world, but he also manipulated the River of Time to join the Past and Present.
#46
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2007 22:19:44 Hooray For Raistlin!
#47
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2007 22:43:36 In AD&D he was a level 18 Black Robed Wizard at the beginning of the War of the Twins. Of course, writers seem to have completely ignored that in favor of prestige classes and epic levels.
#48
zombiegleemax
Mar 28, 2007 22:51:14 He was 20th in 1st edition. The highest any character could go was 18 so he was epic even then.
#49
darthsylver
Mar 29, 2007 7:47:41 Okay, I acquiese (surrender), there might be some power associated with with being the master of the past and present (MOTPAP) in relation to the flow of the river (not in my world) because although we do sorta see him do this, and it is a lot harder to lie to a god (much less the entire pantheon) than to Usha, we still do not know if this is due to being MOTPAP or simply because of his understanding of the magic (which is what I thought they were talking about, hence the three gods of magic smiling when Raistlin stated "I have been successful."
#50
zombiegleemax
Mar 31, 2007 10:41:55 And The Day Is Mine!! :d

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 11, 2007 15:14:13	Does anyone know where I can find the stats for Raistlin at the height of his power? I mean after he became Fistandantilus. And if they don't exist, what level wizard, wizard of high sorcery, and archmage he should be. Thank you very much.
#2 cam_banks Feb 11, 2007 17:32:34	Check out Legends of the Twins for his statistics as of the beginning of War of the Twins - he's wizard 7/Wizard of High Sorcery (Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5 and has the Master of the Tower template from Towers of High Sorcery. This gives him a CR 28. HE's not a minmaxed optimized character as many people have taken time to tell me. After that point, he goes off the scale. Cheers, Cam
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 12, 2007 7:04:34	Cam, are the stats for the Bloodstone ever going to be released?
#4 cam_banks Feb 12, 2007 7:57:10	Cam, are the stats for the Bloodstone ever going to be released? That's one of those things that may or may not ever see the light, especially since it's such a plot device. There's no good mechanical way to properly reflect what happened to Fistandantilus and Raistlin, despite what may have been published in older editions of the game. To be honest, the Bloodstone was Tracy and Margaret's novelized explanation of the magic jar spell being used in the setting, so if you're really keen on using the Bloodstone in your campaign I'd go that route. Cheers, Cam
#5 the_jake Feb 19, 2007 18:04:00	Check out Legends of the Twins for his statistics as of the beginning of War of the Twins - he's wizard 7/Wizard of High Sorcery (Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5 and has the Master of the Tower template from Towers of High Sorcery. This gives him a CR 28. HE's not a minmaxed optimized character as many people have taken time to tell me. After that point, he goes off the scale. What do you mean after that point? Was this his stats at the start of the Legends and not the end?
#6 cam_banks Feb 19, 2007 19:55:26	What do you mean after that point? Was this his stats at the start of the Legends and not the end? They are intended to represent his stats at the beginning of War of the Twins, prior to the Dwarfgate War. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 19, 2007 21:54:24	So he could have been higher level when he entered the Abyss?
#8 clarkvalentine Feb 19, 2007 21:56:03	He was off the scale at that point - not well represented by D&D stats.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 19, 2007 22:03:59	So when he comes through the Portal in Summer Flame, what would his stats look like?
#10 cam_banks Feb 19, 2007 22:12:56	So when he comes through the Portal in Summer Flame, what would his stats look like? I know I'm not going to attempt to write them up. Cheers, Cam
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2007 10:11:31	So they would be more than his Legends of the Twins stats?
#12 cam_banks Feb 20, 2007 10:54:13	So they would be more than his Legends of the Twins stats? That's what I'm saying, yes. Cheers, Cam
#13 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2007 20:06:30	Tee hee, tee hee. More uber than even the ubermensh.
#14 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2007 15:59:20	The only way I can think of even coming close to resembling his power would be to give him the Wish ability at will... that just about comes close to the kind of power he was wielding against Takhisis. It's best to just leave him as "unspeakably powerful" - just like you wouldn't try providing stats for Paladine, the Master of Past and Present is simply beyond numbers.
#15 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2007 16:58:28	The only way I can think of even coming close to resembling his power would be to give him the Wish ability at will... that just about comes close to the kind of power he was wielding against Takhisis. No. There should be a little thing on his character sheet that says, " Activate Raistlin and automatically win. " The only possible way of matching Raistlin's power.
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2007 17:40:48	What benefit is there to being hte Master of Past and Present or is it merely an honorific title?
#17 zombiegleemax Mar 10, 2007 18:02:51	What benefit is there to being hte Master of Past and Present or is it merely an honorific title? It means that you are Master of the Past and Present. I'm sure there is a major benifit to this, however I don't know what it is. It is an honorific title as well as having practical implications.
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2007 18:59:12	And those are?
#19 elondir Mar 19, 2007 13:21:33	Only the Master of Past and Present knows. And mybe old Voldy.
#20 zombiegleemax Mar 19, 2007 16:07:37	Voldy?
#21 havard Mar 19, 2007 16:39:02	It means that you are Master of the Past and Present. I'm sure there is a major benifit to this, however I don't know what it is. It is an honorific title as well as having practical implications. It seemed to be a significant step on Raistlin's path to Godhood, so IMO there should be a major benefit. Maybe something like the FR "Chosen of Mystra" whatever that does. I doubt Raist pulled off that business with Fistandantalus just for the XPs... ;)
#22 zombiegleemax Mar 19, 2007 16:55:08	And those are? In the Legends gaming source book, the title is merely honorific. There were no official bonuses given for it. However the novels hint at greater control over the River of Time. In Dragons of Summer Flame (pg. 379 in my book) Raistlin states "I was once known as the Master of the Present and the Past. Time holds no contraints for me. The river's waters carry me wherever I want to go" in response to Usha's inqury about the Idra. Recall at this time that Raistlin had returned to the mortal plane bereft of power. Raistlin's ability to travel through time without magic indicates that its more of an ability associated with him being the Master of the Past and the Present. Other hints of his mastery over time can also be seen in War of Souls when he used the River of Time to find where Takhisis had stolen the world. This accomplishment was something even the gods had difficulty with.
#23 zombiegleemax Mar 19, 2007 18:08:57	It would have been nice if the Legends sourebook would have spelled it out. Maybe they will spell what it means out in the Summer of Chaos sourcebook if it is ever written.
#24 zombiegleemax Mar 20, 2007 17:13:43	Raistlin's stats in the Legends source book unfortunately represents him after he has become Master of Past and Present. There are no bonuses spelled out in the source book because the game designer did not believe it should come with bonuses; if I recall correctly, the designer (Cam Banks) made a comment in the dragonlance.com message board that, to him, the title was merely honorific.
#25 cam_banks Mar 20, 2007 18:53:00	It's not so much that it's honorific, it's that Margaret Weis herself prefers for many things about Raistlin to remain unexplained or not written down as game stats. These are, in essence, plot device elements unique to Raistlin and not something we chose to represent in his write-up (which is from the beginning of War of the Twins). Cheers, Cam
#26 darthsylver Mar 20, 2007 21:17:00	The title of "The Master of the Past and the present" is not exactly just an honorific. What one must remember is that the only time the "benefits" have ever really been mentioned is when Raistlin unlocked the tower of Palanthas, other than that it was just a tittle that he acquired by following in the footsteps of Fistandantilus. He did this as the curse would only allow said tower to be unlocked by the master of the past and the present, but what most tend to forget is how the curse was placed there originally. We know by the stories depicted in the chronicles series that turse was placed suring the lost battle s just prior to the cataclycsm by a black robe mage who threw himself from the top of the tower. Now this is where we get into the realm of cannon or non-cannon (as some people say that if it was written by Weis or Hickman then it is not cannon) as Chris Pierson gives us the identity and some back-story on Rannoch and his motivationsfor doing what he did, hence we come back to the beginning. Yes I mean Fistandantilus. Fistandantilus knew that he was planning to assault the dark queen. Now any smart wizard would know that there is no guarantee to surviving much less winning this fight so they would have prepared for the inevitable by planning on returning after he was killed as a spirit who can posses a person's body. In short the title of "The master of teh past and the present" had everything to do with Fistandantilus and nothing to do with Raistlin, he just happened to be the unlucky sap who gave in to Fistandantilus's temptations. It was Fistandantilus's perversion that eventually caused Raistlin to adopt Fistandantilus's plan to attack the dark queen. So to make my point. The tittle was created and fullfiled by the same person and the only benefit was to unlock the curse by stating that (in my words) "This tower will remain locked until I return in the body of another who is a master of magic." It is kinda of like stating that "This door will remain locked until my key key and any other key are inserted into the lock" and then burying your key in a location known only to you and waiting until you find someone that you can manipulate into doing what you want them to do.
#27 zombiegleemax Mar 20, 2007 23:25:33	It's not so much that it's honorific, it's that Margaret Weis herself prefers for many things about Raistlin to remain unexplained or not written down as game stats. So eh Cam ... does this mean there are really some additional powers that Raistlin has that are not represented by his game stats...kinda like hidden/enigmatic powers that arent to be disclosed...but are still in essence there? :D
#28 zombiegleemax Mar 21, 2007 0:15:21	One of the other benefits Darth was able to go back and forth through time like he did in DoSF.
#29 darthsylver Mar 22, 2007 19:45:26	Treymordin, are you are talking about Dragons of Summer Flame? And if so what page so I could research that a little more. Because I thought he was able to go back an forth along the timeline because he knew the correct spells.
#30 zombiegleemax Mar 22, 2007 22:42:26	Dont have the book in front of me, but it is when he meets Usha for the first time and talks to her about her not being Palin's cousin.
#31 darthsylver Mar 24, 2007 21:07:56	Thank you, I think I can go from there because that should be not to far past where she arrives on the mainland.
#32 zombiegleemax Mar 24, 2007 22:22:00	It is more towards the end.
#33 darthsylver Mar 25, 2007 22:40:18	Yes it is on page 379. And while it is a beautiful story, I say it is all lies. Let us think about this. Raistlin wants Usha to believe that he is not her father, for Raistlin is very good at reading people and their emotions and can tell that both Usha and Palin have feelings for each other and would never get involved with each other if they were related, not to mention that if the word got out that Usha really was Raistlin's daughter then she would become a hunted person by both sides, so he makes up a cockamimy story about how he can travel the river's waters and creates a story that will satisfy her need to know who her parents were. But did you notice that he assured that she had absolutely no knowledge of her parents before he told her the story of her parent's death and how he supposedly got that information? I still say that the only benefit that being the master of the past and the present was the ability to break the curse of the tower. There are no other benefits, for we have certainly never seen any benefits in the novels, games, or sourcebooks that relate to the title other than being able to unlock the tower. Now it is possible that Raistlin did walk the waters and discover the truth of the story that he told Usha about her parents, but it certainly was not due to any title, and was probably facilitated through the magic of other wizards, because, oh and Raistlin himself states this, "I *was* once known as the Master of the Past and the Present" not I am the Master of the Past and Present, which implies that he no longer has that title and therefore could not travel the rivers waters (even if he supposedly could have as the Master). Now of course one could try to argue that Dragons of Summer Flame or the Story "Raistlin's Daughter" is more cannon than the other but both were written (or at least co-written) by Margaret Weis. So there we are at a stalemate, so I guess we will just have to wait and see.
#34 zombiegleemax Mar 26, 2007 7:58:40	No one ever really took that storey seriously, only the kender, it was Tasslehoff who told Usha she was Raistlin's daughter.
#35 darthsylver Mar 26, 2007 19:41:39	It doesn't really mater if Usha is Raistlin's daughter or not, but the fact that he tells Usha that he can travel even after he doesn't have any power after leaving is the relevant fact. Raistlin was infamous for his being able to fool people into believing what he wanted them too even before he gained the magic. So once again Raisltin has woven a sleight of hand illusion and he has fooled some more.
#36 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2007 8:34:42	That does not necessarily hold true in this instance however.
#37 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2007 19:36:05	It doesn't really mater if Usha is Raistlin's daughter or not, but the fact that he tells Usha that he can travel even after he doesn't have any power after leaving is the relevant fact. Raistlin was infamous for his being able to fool people into believing what he wanted them too even before he gained the magic. So once again Raisltin has woven a sleight of hand illusion and he has fooled some more. Haha, Well I DOUBT that Usha would be Raistlin's daughter...uhm...otherwise we'll have an incestual issue here...and I doubt the authors would intend that. And while I definitely agree that Raistlin isnt above lying to get his way, he has no reason to lie to Usha; besides that, the book also stated that a part of Raistlin would have LIKED to have had that kind of love. Finally, Raistlin was also able to navigate the River of Time in the War of Souls to connect the worlds....so it seems highly improbable that Raistlin lied about traveling back in time to discover Usha's past.
#38 darthsylver Mar 27, 2007 23:04:07	Originally posted by Zyriath Finally, Raistlin was also able to navigate the River of Time in the War of Souls to connect the worlds....so it seems highly improbable that Raistlin lied about traveling back in time to discover Usha's past. I thought that it was explained that the river of time was broken, hence when the device of time journeying was used during the war of the souls, it did not work right. Besides it was not Raistlin's supposed ability to travel the Rivers of Time, it was Tasselhoff's voice saying words of magic that called out to Raistlin that allowed him to find the world. Oh, and don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that Usha really is Raistlin's daughter (even though she can predict the future through painting and all), just that the story he spun for her is a load of hogwash, horsepooh, or a pile of manure. Edited for Treymordin's post below.
#39 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2007 23:07:07	The incident you refer to came about in the War of Souls. Raistlin talked to Usha in Summer Flame.
#40 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2007 23:07:13	The way I understood it was Raistlin would gain his powers back once he left Krynn... I could be very very wrong.
#41 darthsylver Mar 27, 2007 23:17:28	The previous post was in response to Zyriath's post as he was referring to Raistlin's ability (to supposedly travel the rivers of time) to find Krynn during the War of Souls. I know this is a very interesting and possibly confusing topic, but please Trey, try and keep up. Just joking.
#42 zombiegleemax Mar 27, 2007 23:20:57	I could see Hiddikuel and Shinare with the pact domain as they are the gods of business, so to speak. Mishakel,according to HOOS, also have access to the Liberation domain.
#43 darthsylver Mar 27, 2007 23:46:09	Sorry Trey, I had accidentally posted that on this thread, I have moved that over the "Raistlin as a Deity" thread, which you already know because you have already responded to that thread when I have posted this reply. Again sorry I got a little mixed up. I had thought that too at first, but there were spells at 3rd and 8th levels that had to do with death. And they have always said that people made deals with Chemosh for "everlasting life" but that these deals always turned out for the worst with regards for the deal-maker.
#44 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2007 6:18:08	OK, I will post on the other thread!:P
#45 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2007 21:48:20	Besides it was not Raistlin's supposed ability to travel the Rivers of Time, it was Tasselhoff's voice saying words of magic that called out to Raistlin that allowed him to find the world. Edited for Treymordin's post below. The kenders use of magical device helped Raistlin allowed Raistlint to find the world (188 to 191 in the hardback DoVM) but Raistlin did far more than that in DoVM. Quote from page 439: "My task was not easy," Raistlin said. "The currents of chaos swirl about the universe. The magic is wayward and unwieldly. I no more set my hands upon it than it slides through my fingers. When the kender used the device, I managed to seize hold of him and wrench him back into the past, where the winds of chaos blow less fiercely.....Finally, I carried him to the present. Past and present are now linked..." Not only did Raistlin find the world, but he also manipulated the River of Time to join the Past and Present.
#46 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2007 22:19:44	Hooray For Raistlin!
#47 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2007 22:43:36	In AD&D he was a level 18 Black Robed Wizard at the beginning of the War of the Twins. Of course, writers seem to have completely ignored that in favor of prestige classes and epic levels.
#48 zombiegleemax Mar 28, 2007 22:51:14	He was 20th in 1st edition. The highest any character could go was 18 so he was epic even then.
#49 darthsylver Mar 29, 2007 7:47:41	Okay, I acquiese (surrender), there might be some power associated with with being the master of the past and present (MOTPAP) in relation to the flow of the river (not in my world) because although we do sorta see him do this, and it is a lot harder to lie to a god (much less the entire pantheon) than to Usha, we still do not know if this is due to being MOTPAP or simply because of his understanding of the magic (which is what I thought they were talking about, hence the three gods of magic smiling when Raistlin stated "I have been successful."
#50 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2007 10:41:55	And The Day Is Mine!! :d