I've attempted to do this in several ways before, myself, but many of these ways always seem forced. I once allowed a player to play as a monk who was one of the travelers from Kara Tur but got left behind when they returned to their homeland. Another time, another player was trained by a Scarlet Brotherhood monk (whose allegiances he never realized until later in the campaign). I allowed a Kensai into the game under the condition that he be a Ketite loyal to the crown (it wasn't perfect, but it fit enough for me to overlook it). What are some other ways you can think of or ways you have used before?
What are some other ways you can think of or ways you have used before?
I've actually used the one that makes the most sense. In our own world, people knew about Asia mainly thanks to the Road of Silk going through arab-controlled countries. Going there by land was a long and difficult journey but it was seen as more viable than the long trip in boat around Africa (at least till the 13-14th century)
So, whenever I introduced "oriental stuff" in my GH campaign (and it wasn't often), I did it via the Bakluni nations which acted as a kind of buffer zone where the best of both worlds combined.
It helped diminish the "cultural shock".
Samurai could come from the Nippon Dominion.
"Nobles" (use samurai class) could also come from Celestial Imperium.
Well, if you believe this map: http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/files/tsroerth.gif
Samurai could come from the Nippon Dominion.
"Nobles" (use samurai class) could also come from Celestial Imperium.
They called it Nippon??? Oh man is that ever obvious. Not a horrible idea though to use that map if you want some oriental flavor.
And Erypt??? Tharkish Empire??? *groan*
What is that map from anyway? Was it an official TSR map at some point?
You should note that both map and note are featured in Dragon Annual 1996.
(It may have been disregarded as 'canon' largely, as I take it it wasn't all that well received. I don't even see them listed on the WotC product page any longer, though many of the old pages about it are still there.)
Don't suppose anyone knows of a map out there? I found a link to one from ages ago, but it's no longer functioning. There's also a sort of map on Canonfire! that shows a lot of numbered areas, but I was wondering if there's anything more detailed, perhaps with some explanations of the various regions introduced in Chainmail.
Ravilla: Ruled by elves. Originally a collection of city-states tasked to defend abyssal gateways against a second Demon War (the first was 1500 years ago). After a gate in the city of Xanos opened five hundred years later, the city-states got serious and became an empire, which later became the Sundered Empire. Dragon #285.
Thalos: Human city-states. Primarily worship Stern Alia. Threatened by kobolds and allied with gnomes. They originally were scattered throughout Western Oerik, fled to the northwestern island (Thalos proper) from the expanding elven empire, but now hope, centuries later, to reconquer the continent. Dragon #287.
Ahmut's Legion: Human tribes called the Baklien (Bakluni?), led by an undead warrior named Ahmut. Worship Nerull the Reaper. They fight with the elves of Ravilla and gnolls of Naresh. Dragon #286
Free States: Human-ruled. Originally founded as a puppet government by the elves. Thalos "liberated" it during the Petty Wars a while back. The names and borders of the Free States change frequently, but include, currently: Ironfist (capital Garrison) a human state ruled by the ogre mage Gallo; Fivestar, ruled by a group of five ex-adventurers belonging to all the PC races of Western Oerik (everything but halflings), threatened by Draven's Horde and allied with Thalos; the Cult of the Return, a group of warrior monks dedicated to the rebirth of Stratis, the dead brother of Heironeous and Hextor. Dragon #293.
Drazen's Horde: The Southlands, or the Blasted Desert, is teeming with orcs, hobgoblins, ogres, goblins, bugbears, and others. Draven is a hobgoblin warlord who won Stratis' axe after the god died. He consolidated the warring tribes of the Southlands under his leadership. He badly hurt the Free States in a war, but was temporarily driven back by the armies of Thalos. Dragon #292.
Naresh: Led by the demonic gnoll Jangir, this is an army of gnolls allied with demons of Yeenoghu. Not entirely sure which Dragon issue they're described in at the moment.
The People's State of Mordengard: Socialist dwarves. Dragon #291.
Ahmut's Legion: Human tribes called the Baklien (Bakluni?), led by an undead warrior named Ahmut. Worship Nerull the Reaper.
Baklunish worshipping the Flan boogey-man/death-god
Baklunish worshipping the Flan boogey-man/death-god
It's possible the Baklien aren't related to the Baklunish. For all I know, they're Flan, and their name just sounds like "Baklunish."
Also, Nerull is feared on hundreds of different worlds, and probably known to most peoples on Oerth under one name or another. Erik Mona's article in the Oerth Journal #3 said the Baklunish called Nerull "Tharoth the Reaper." That's unofficial, of course, but it's implied in the material on the ancient War of Light and Darkness before the Baklunish Hegira that Nerull was the god responsible for the Darkness (partly because it was implied that Azor'alq was a paladin of Pelor, or "Al-Asran," and pretty much stated outright in the case of Al-Akbar). Since the Pelor-worshiping Baklunish retreated across the mountains, the Baklunish remaining in western Oerik might well worship Nerull to this day.
One of the names from OJ #3, "Al-Zarad" - the Baklunish name for Boccob - was canonized in the recent Dragon article on Boccob.
That's not to say that I particularly like the Chainmail setting. I don't. But Nerull-worshiping Baklunish in Western Oerik makes a certain amount of sense.
Thematically, Nerull is a boogey man. He is something to be feared and avoided. This may extend to death as a whole, but I'm not sure with the Flan. Different human cultures would not view death the same way, so their death gods would not necessarily have the same themes.
Practically, the Baklunish would have to cross into the Flanaess, integrate a foreign god into their worship system and then travel back to the west to transplant it somewhere new. Likely?
But I agree with Rasgon; Baklien is not necessarily Baklunish. Nor is it partcularly wise to credit Chainmail with an interest in maintaining continuity with our favorite setting.
Practically, the Baklunish would have to cross into the Flanaess, integrate a foreign god into their worship system and then travel back to the west to transplant it somewhere new. Likely?
Maybe not. Maybe the Baklunish always worshiped Nerull.
If Nerull is capable of crossing planes of existence at will, he can probably cross national borders as well.
Not all gods will appeal to the imaginations of all peoples. I don't think there's a Baklunish Rao or a Baklunish Wee Jas, for example. But there might be a Baklunish aspect of Nerull. We know he's not just a Flan god.
Ripvanwormer (aka Rasgon) has a number of maps that he posted in a discussion thread on canonfire showing various possibilities from the conflicting canon. We know what Oerik looks like, because the shape of the continent has been in several of the gazetteers over the years. But there are several "official" versions of what the nations are. The Dragon annual map is both the most "official" and most egregiously awful version.
Awful to you, but not to me. :P
If you mean the map of the Flanaess in one of the sets, other than a few silly examples, I don't see anything annoying about the basic Flanaess nations and towns. There's limited linguistic continuity, but then I can't think of many fantasy worlds that have that unless they are 1) cloning real world languages or 2) something like Tekumel or Middle Earth, which were both developed by professional scholars.
There's a map in the Greyhawk Adventures hardback? I don't recall that.
There isn't one (which was frustrating for me, since that was the first Greyhawk book I ever bought and I didn't know what they were talking about half the time).
I think Elbereth is referring to the Dragon Annual map.
http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/files/tsroerth.gif
It has "Greyhawk Adventures" printed on it.
It has "Greyhawk Adventures" printed on it.
That's the map from the Dragon Magazine Annual #1. "Greyhawk Adventures" was the generic logo for all Greyhawk products once upon a time. It doesn't refer to the hardcover product of the same name.
Thats what I was originally thinking about, the map didn't help things.
Gary Gygax himself has denied he had anything to do with it, however.
As far as Flanneass names, it is exceedingly difficult to make a naming scheme when you don't have an affinity for linguistics. Also, it is very hard to come up with fantasy names with the flavor of a foreign language which you don't speak. In Greyhawk, everything sounds like fantasy English - presumably because that is the only language Gygax speaks.
As an aside about gods, if it is common for pantheistic gods like Nerull to be worshipped by other cultures, wouldn't he be considered a common god? However, I guess it was (is) extremely common for cultures to take on worship of their neighbors' god(s) on Earth.
Over the Nerull/Wee Jas debate; Didn't Wee Jas gain the "death Portfolio" because of the Twin Cataclysms, IIRC.
Well their may have been some cultural exchange before then between the Baklunish and Suel, although the attitudes and interest seems different.
I can't see the Baklunish survivors embracing a Suel Goddess of death.
Zindia = Zakhara / Arabia
Celestial Imperium = Shou Lung / China
Nippon = Kozakura / Wa / Japan
Khanate = Hordelands / Mongolia
It's pretty neat that someone thought of making room for various non-western cultures on Oerth.
Japan would be a completely different country with India's direct influence.
Only if the DM wanted it to be so. One could make the case that the Celestial Imperium, either for reasons topographical or magical, was the primary influence on Nipponese culture and not Zindia. For example, suppose the trade winds between Nippon and Zindia were practically still, making sailing virtually impossible, or that a magical maelstrom divided Nippon and Zindia keeping them out of contact for centuries. The only link between the two might have been travelers who sailed from Nippon to the Celestial Imperium, then traveled overland to Zindia.
One could make the case that the Celestial Imperium, either for reasons topographical or magical, was the primary influence on Nipponese culture and not Zindia.
I don't buy it, personally. Zahind is too close, and the Imperium is much too far away. The map is bad enough already; stretching credulity to that extent just makes it worse.
I don't buy it, personally. Zahind is too close, and the Imperium is much too far away. The map is bad enough already; stretching credulity to that extent just makes it worse.
Are you trying to apply your anthropology degree to the evolution and migration of Oerth cultures?
I thought your expertise would be better practiced at Forgotten Realms, not Greyhawk.
Doesn't that seem, I don't know, a tad contrived? Just because you can think of ways they might be linked, doesn't mean that you should, or that such reasons are satisfying.
That's not to say that the Celestials have zero influence on "Nippon"/Hydrania/Kalaraj, but Occam's Razor makes me think that the isles are likely to get more of an influence from the nearby mainland than from an empire thousands of miles away.
Oh and it'd be wrong to assume that that India had no influence on Japan. One word: Buddhism. It may have come to Japan via China, but it came to China (and most of East Asia) from India.
Ok - so because the DA1 map labels this set of islands over here "Nippon" and that extensive landmass waaaaay over there the "Celestial Imperium", you're going to tie yourself in knots to link the two, because the names refer to neighbouring regions in the real world?
Indeed. What a great double standard there. Nippon and the Celestial Imperium must be linked because in the real worl they are, but don't think about applying real world issues like distance to the setting.
And as always, "It's magic!" makes an appearance. I thought that was the explanation for everything in FR and Eberron? The sad irony being how much those settings use magic as a tool rather than a crutch, leaving Greyhawk as the joke setting.
And as it happens, that doesn't lead to rational explanations. It leads to lazy explanations and a build up of contradictions that eventually makes the setting collapse from absurdity. How long until we have Crisis on Finite Oerth to resolve some of them?
Why not make some effort to develop an actual history and coherently integrated background instead of just handwaving everything with "It's magic!" at the drop of a hat?
That's probably the intention, but it could easily be something else. I wouldn't make "Nippon" into Japan, for example (the name would have to go anyway). Japan and India right next to one another, and China way on the other side of the peninsula, is pretty weak. Japan would be a completely different country with India's direct influence.
As opposed to indirect influences by way of China?
Maybe the political borders changed. It's possible that Celestial Imperium did rule the peninsula and affected both Zindia and Nippon (the island continent) through cultural as well as commercial exchange. It is also possible that like Japan, they considered invading the mainland and established and occupied much of the land you now see on the map.
As opposed to indirect influences by way of China?
Yes. Indirect influences result in a very different situation. Japan gets a tremendous amount of influence from China. If India was inserted in that position instead, we should expect Japan to use Sanskrit-based writing, practice Theraveda Buddhism (mixed with Hinduism) instead of Mahayana Buddhism (mixed with a bit of Taoism), and have an entirely different racial mix (in fact, we could expect it to be very much like Sri Lanka, with some Shinto flavorings).
Maybe the political borders changed. It's possible that Celestial Imperium did rule the peninsula and affected both Zindia and Nippon (the island continent) through cultural as well as commercial exchange.
Yes, if you assume that Zahind is more like China than it is like India, there is less problem with making "Nippon" resemble Japan. Even so, if Zahind is at all like India, "Nippon" is going to be that much less like Japan. Most every Indian cultural element Zahind possesses should be assumed will be mirrored in its neighboring state to some degree, unless some very convoluted deus ex machinas are invoked to prevent this from happening.
My question is, why would this be worthwhile? Why would anyone want so badly to make "Nippon" mirror its real-world namesake to make permanent magical maelstroms, magical gates, and conquest and colonization of Zahind so complete that it's more or less just an extension of the Celestial Imperium worth all that effort?
If you want a Japanese-inspired culture on Oerth, my suggestion is to place it on "Dragons Island" in the Celestial Sea - a much more natural location, with a much more appropriate context. Putting it on "Nippon" is forced and ugly.
If you want a Japanese-inspired culture on Oerth, my suggestion is to place it on "Dragons Island" in the Celestial Sea - a much more natural location, with a much more appropriate context. Putting it on "Nippon" is forced and ugly.
Natural, perhaps, but I wonder if the Japanese civilization can flourish on a larger landmass.
IOW, bring on the ugly. Uh, no offense.
