Random encounters... in wildspace?!?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

tauster

Feb 20, 2007 3:11:16
One thing that I never could wrap my mind around:
How can you have random encounters during a voyage at spelljamming speed?

I can accept that there is a certain probability of meeting other ships or monsters/wildspace inhabitants when being near the orbit of a planet (either by arriving there or reaching it from the ground). Even then, "orbit" is a friggin' HUGE area: take the map of the planets surface area and multiply several times - and then take into account that compared to the vast numbers of groundling inhabitants, there is almost nobody in the orbit any given time!

Though it is probably the most busy area in wildspace, I picture an orbit of anything as big as a planet as a quite lonely place, at least compared to being on the ground of a world. That's certainly different when approaching Bral or other small "asteroid-type" worlds.

And this gets even worse when a ship moves AWAY from a world. After only a few minutes of spelljamming, you are thousands upon thousands of miles away from "the action" - with no chance of close on another ship (spelljamming speed being a constant) and no chance of being caught up.

Even after thinking long and hard about it, I still can not see how "deep space piracy" is thought to work. Imagine you are a pirate or privateer captain. Apart from loitering in orbit of a world (and hoping not to get caught!), what are your options? How big is the chance of meeting another ship in the vastness of wildspace?

One possible exception to the "lonelyness of wildspace" are the travel routes between worlds (planets, asteriod belts, etc.). There, our pirate captain just _might_ have a chance of meeting prey. But then again, a ship only has to travel a tiny degree "off course" - and it would be thousands of miles away from the "standard travel route" - effectively alone in "deep wildspace" and thus safe from pirates.

Even if our pirate captain has informants or whistle-blowers in a spelljammer haven who tells him when a ship leaves and its destination: without the EXACT(!!!) course data there is almost no chance of getting
close enough to force it out of spelljamming speed. If the ships starts only a few minute too early or late, the revolution of the planets/worlds will cause a slightly different course. And since there are no sufficiently exact methods of keeping time (much less something like a universal "standard time"), the ship would be far away from our poor pirate.

I am not so sure about the portals in a chrystal sphere, but I don't think the chances for encounters are much bigger there. After all, natural portals appear randomly, and a spherewall is a HUUUUGE thing - the aforementioned "orbit-area" is tiny compared to it!


I think this is one of the "fundamental problems" that need an explanation that's at least good enough for keeping the suspension of disbelief alive. Like the "gravity-problem" that was discussed a while back.

I'm quite sure there are more of these problems "out there", waiting to be discovered by players. ...and woe betide the Dungeonmaster who hasn't at least a superficial explanation! *grin*

Your opinions?

Daniel
p.s.: If this topic was already discussed on the list, I apologize. I didn't find anything (but perhaps I just wasn't looking hard enough)...
#2

Xorial

Feb 21, 2007 20:57:58
If you really think about it, it means that the main encounters are probably be random.
#3

rhialto

Feb 26, 2007 15:46:25
This same issue is actually true in absolutely every groundling scenario.

Outside major inhabited locations, forts, inhabited dungeons, and patrolled areas (ie set piece encounters), random encounters shouldbe pretty unlikely in reality. Monsters don't wander around at random for fun. they are generally out doing something specific, whether hunting, travelling, trading, visiting someone, whatever. They aren't jay walking in the random hope of meetinga PC party to fight and get killed.

This issue is especially acute in the case of outer space, since there are even fewer locations ships could be travelling to/from, and nothing at all of value between them (unlike ground encounters). Add to that all ships move at exactly the same speed outside of encounters, and there really shouldn't be any encounters outside the gravity well of a planet or other set piece event object.

Incidentally, Star Trek also has this issue.
#4

maldin

Mar 16, 2007 16:30:03
Ok... I'll take a crack at it! My middle name isn't "BigPicture(tm)" for nothing!

The physics of the D&D multiverse is rather different then the RealWorld. For a detailed explanation of the how and why of this, see my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" page at http://melkot.com/mysteries/multiverse.html (sorry for the shameless plug, but you may find that it explains the D&D multiverse nicely for you - its what ties my multiverse together)

One of the things my page discusses is the "Laws of the Multiverse", and the different "forces" (for lack of a better term, I use the capitalized term "Variables"). Two of the Variables are a complimentary pair "Magical Energy" and "Life Energy" (or Vitae).

As a ship travels through the truly astronomical dimensions of wildspace, even the tiniest variations in its course result in huge differences in its final destination. How does a spelljammer plot a course accurate to thousandths or even millionths of a degree? Obviously... he can't! Yet still, the ship always (most times) ends up exactly where it wants to be. Impossible, you say? No, this is inherent in the magical functioning of the helm. Even the slightest inaccuracy in direction would render the helm worthless... jammers would get hopelessly lost every time they plotted a course to some destination that they couldn't physically see (and make visual course corrections on approach).

How does this work? Well, a spelljamming helm actually has a built-in self-correcting functionality that utilizes a sort of "heat-seeking" magical technology... it is literally drawn towards "Magical Energy" and "Life Energy", and its detection capability operates at astronomical distances! Truly a wonder of magical accomplishment (and why the Arcane have the monopoly). Unbeknownst to most jammers, their course is actually deflected by the presence of such concentrations ever so slightly. At these distances, it doesn't take much deflection to result in a "bull's eye", and just enough happens to get travellers where they want to be (most times). Since most destinations have either life, or magic, or both (and most empty space has nothing), the system works. Jammers travelling near eachother would also have their two flight paths deflected towards eachother, almost guaranteeing that they'll approach close enough to drop out of spelljamming speed. This not only would explain why wildspace encounters happen at all, but why wildspace encounters are virtually guaranteed.

Of course, this theory could have game consequences, if the DM so desires. A destination that is totally lacking in Magical or Life Energy (a difficult thing in a magic multiverse) would theoretically be more difficult to find. A malfunctioning helm could be repulsed by the same forces (or neutral), rendering it useless, possibly causing the travellers to become lost for years. Enter "The Lost Patrol" adventure where the PCs (whose helm is functioning) happens upon a group of lost travellers who think that some old war is still raging. I'm sure DMs can come up with other scenarios as well.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
==============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more! Including all-new spelljammer ship fold-up models!
#5

jaid

Mar 17, 2007 21:26:35
you could still get places without seeking helms.

it would just take a lot of tries, most likely a whole heck of a lot of complex math, and some incredibly detailed star charts, plus all sorts of precise measuring gear.

but basically, let's say you want to travel 200 million miles. you are off target, and when you stop the ship after 2 days you end up, say, 2 million miles away from where you want to be. spend some time analysing star charts of your expected location, and compare it to measured data (keeping in mind you should have at least a rough idea of what region of space you could possibly be in) and you should be able to figure out where you are, and plot a new course... so this time, you're going 2 million miles. assuming you are as accurate as you were at the 200 million mile mark, you're looking at 20,000 miles away from your destination, if i'm not mistaken. from such a (relatively) small distance away, you should be able to sight most destinations, and even if you can't, another round of checking your charts and measuring your location should get you to within 2,000 miles. once more for 20 miles. and so forth.

this works even if you assume that there is 10% drift instead of 1% drift, it just means a lot more starting, calculating, and stopping.

that being said, there is no sign of any of this repeated missing happening, it seems to be highly accurate (generally speaking), plus i kinda like your idea anyways, maldin.... so i'd probably stick to yours. that being said, getting the ship accurately targetted to the point where the helm can perform the course corrections would be a trick in itself, and would certainly make highly accurate star charts a valuable commodity...
#6

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

Mar 18, 2007 6:26:56
I know there's a Plantery Locater device in SJ, but I vaguely recall reading of a "Helm Locater" device as well. which would make sense and allow for piracy ;)
#7

jaid

Mar 18, 2007 9:37:17
I know there's a Plantery Locater device in SJ, but I vaguely recall reading of a "Helm Locater" device as well. which would make sense and allow for piracy ;)

don't recall a "helm locater" anywhere, but i do recall a ship locator. alas, it is one of a kind, and somewhat experimental (that is, there could be more of them made, it just hasn't been done yet). it does have some minor flaws however (such as inability to distinguish between rocks and ships) but even with those in mind it would still be an extremely useful device to have.
#8

rhialto

Mar 19, 2007 5:23:35
The problem with any kind of interception course ploting s that all ships travel at teh same speed, unless and until you reach combat range. Unless you start off in combat range, you can never get into combat range until the target enters combat range with something else.
#9

jaid

Mar 19, 2007 18:09:51
it makes pursuit impossible. interception is still quite possible.

so sure, two spelljammers flying parrellel to each other will never meet, since they are both travelling at the same speed. one spelljamming vessel which happens to be in the direction another spelljamming vessel is travelling could, in theory, cut that spelljamming vessel off.
#10

maldin

Mar 20, 2007 10:52:39
In fact, under my current theory, two spelljammers travelling parallel to each other (perhaps along established trade routes) would slowly be drawn closer to each other and almost certainly meet, explaining the seemingly unusual high probability of wildspace encounters (considering the vast emptiness of space).

Regarding the ship locator, I recall it as well. Of course in a system with perhaps millions of asteroids, space debris, and catapult misses, any ship signals would be hopelessly lost in the crowd. Unless you saw something isolated that seemed to be moving REAL fast (since asteroids and catapult shot don't move at spelljamming speed).

Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
#11

bigmac

Mar 25, 2007 13:22:51
I know there's a Plantery Locater device in SJ, but I vaguely recall reading of a "Helm Locater" device as well. which would make sense and allow for piracy ;)

Regarding the ship locator, I recall it as well.

Could you perhaps both be recalling the Practical Piracy: the Helm Locator topic on the SJML that was started 6 days ago? :P

As I said in that thread, planets (and therefore ships) would tend to travel in a single horizontal plane in most crystal spheres, and ships would also tend to travel in straight lines between their current location and their destination. This makes a pirates target area a lot smaller than some people expect it to be.
#12

maldin

Mar 26, 2007 0:19:06
Could you perhaps both be recalling the Practical Piracy: the Helm Locator topic on the SJML that was started 6 days ago? :P

Nope. The Ship Locator is described in the "Pirates of the Shattered Forge" adventure in the SJR8 Space Lairs accessory. Its not detailed as a regular magic item because it is described as "having problems" and thus the writer assumed that PCs would not actually try using it (giving it "back to the elves"). Clearly the writer did not understand players very well.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
#13

tauster

Mar 26, 2007 15:11:51
As I said in that thread, planets (and therefore ships) would tend to travel in a single horizontal plane in most crystal spheres, and ships would also tend to travel in straight lines between their current location and their destination. This makes a pirates target area a lot smaller than some people expect it to be.

And exactly for that reason spelljamming traffic wouldn't happen in straigt lines and one plane: EVERYONE who wants to cut down the chances of ending up as pirate prey will travel in a slight curve, their curse being enough "curved" to avoid coming in contact with pirates but still not so much bended that it's a big extension of the travel distance.

Over the huge dimensions of wildspace, even a small degree "off" the regular plane or travel line will result in having millions of miles between you and the "beaten path" where "everyone" sails the stars and pirates/neogi/other evil prowls.

The downside is that once you travel off the beaten path, there is virtually no hope that anyone finds your ship in case of emergency (ship's helm stops working, all helmsmen die, ship stranded, etc.). I am not sure what is seen as the greater evil among the spelljamming society: the risk of pirates, who might leave you alive but without helm (because it's often more precious than the complete cargo plus the ship!), with the hope of being saved by others travelling your course, or travelling through "deep (wild-)space", avoiding pirates but risking to be lost forever in case of something happening to the ship.
#14

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

Mar 26, 2007 19:13:31
The Helm Locater idea I posted in the mail list I think would solve these problems.
Not 100% reliable, pirates never know for sure what they will find
-it only tells them where a ship is when it's activated (and it's useage is based of actual spell casting, so vey limited)
-You still can't overhaul a ship from behind, but you can from frontal arcs, or if you work out a possible slow trading route in system.


HELM LOCATER
A helm locater is an ornate device the size of a small table, usually around 3 feet high and about 2 foot square. Made from precious metals, gems and stainless steel, they usually take the form of a three inch wide metal rim, supported by three or four legs, with two extensions that arc partially over the rim. These extensions are always inset with gems and are designed to be grasped or touched by the user.

To activate the device, a user must be a spellcaster of some type, they cannot be activated by psionics, though Psionic Helm Locaters exist and works in the exact same fashion as described below, with some differences, and they can in turn, only be used by creatures with psionic powers.

The user casts a spell (or psionic power) and it's energy is utterly absorbed by the Helm Locater, which then fashions in a manner analogous to a Crystal Ball, but it only detects active helms, plus it acts as a Planetary Locater, it can also be foiled in the exact same way as a Crystal Ball. Once successfully activated, an illusory sphere appears inside the rim, not unlike a Planetary Locater, showing every active helm in the sphere. In the Phlogiston, active helms are also shown, but there is some range limit to this which is unknown, due to the nature and vast size of the Flow, plus there maybe no planetoids for frame of reference (DM's can place whatever limit they chose in the Flow, it is quite arbitrary)

The chance for success is not automatic however, as it can be blocked or affected as per a Crystal Ball (or Remote Viewing), so a suitable warding spell (or Psi-Power) cast on or round a helm could hide it from view. Since the Locater detects helms, not helmsmen, wearing an Amulet of Proof Against Detection And Location will not work. Also, areas of intense magic or energy, or multiple helms close by, can block or give uncertain results.

Users will see white dots in the illusion representing helms, as well as planets, so relative positioning can be reckoned. The spellcaster can also zoom in or move/rotate the display as needed. The illusion will last for 5 minutes per spell level (or Power Level) used to activate it. During this time, the spell caster can concentrate on one ship per minute and try to discern what type of helm powers it, using a Knowledge: Arcana check (even psionic helms use Knowledge Arcana checks, except if the target uses a Psionic helm). The helms appearance on the display then changes to a specific colour or look the user recognizes. This function is based on the user's ability to sense and try to interpret the actual helm itself, and has nothing to do with actually looking at the display itself.

Red -- Minor Helm DC 15
Yellow -- Major Helm DC 20
Blue -- Life Jammer DC 20 (DC 35 if using a Psionic Helm Locater)
Artic Blue -- Death Helm DC 25 (DC 40 if using a Psionic Helm Locater)
Pulsating Star -- Artifurnace DC 40 (Can automatically fail if the DM so wishes it)
Pulsing Orange -- Furnace DC 15
Sparkling white -- Series Helm DC 30 (DC 15 if using a Psionic Helm Locater)
Sparkling orange -- Pool Helm DC 35 (DC 20 if using a Psionic Helm Locater)

Helms that use necromancy or negative energy for power are more difficult for psionic users to discern, and likewise, psionic helms are harder for spellcasters to recognize. Failed results always give wrong type of answer, without the user knowing it, so it is a gamble.

The Arcane sell these, of course. Illithids are the primary creators of Psionic Helm Locaters. Strong Divination; CL 15th; Craft Wonderous Item (Craft Universal Item for psionic version); Scrying (Remote Viewing for Psionic version); Price 60,000 gp

#15

nerik

Mar 27, 2007 6:28:44
Some thoughts - there has been a discussion on the visability of ships in wildspace, IIRC, it was established that spelljamming ships left a sort of magical 'wake' when they travelled, it is possible that such a wake may be visible to another helmsman within a reasonable large range, relatively speaking, say about 1 million miles? (related thought - can cloaking helms cloak their wake?). The wake may even be visible to certain space critters with sufficiently acute (or arcane) eyesight.

Likewise, free-flying wildspace predators may live like many real-world reptiles, being able to go for long periods without food, so they just float in space, expending almost no energy, until something to eat comes into visual range - expect them to have real good eyesight as well. Although with all that, I'd still expect most creature encounters to occur near worlds or asteroids - where the likelyhood of finding food is a lot higher.

Charles
#16

tauster

Mar 27, 2007 6:36:21
Some thoughts - there has been a discussion on the visability of ships in wildspace, IIRC, it was established that spelljamming ships left a sort of magical 'wake' when they travelled, it is possible that such a wake may be visible to another helmsman within a reasonable large range, relatively speaking, say about 1 million miles? (related thought - can cloaking helms cloak their wake?). The wake may even be visible to certain space critters with sufficiently acute (or arcane) eyesight.Charles

I am not sure about the eyesight-range, but I can imagine a whole series of divination spells centered around locating spelljamming objects (ships or beings) having been not only developed centuries/millenia ago, but as well being widely known in spelljamming society. After all, locating other ships (or beings/monsters is a basic aspect of naval travelling, and should be as well when spelljamming.

So we would need someone who writes up a few location-spells with different power levels...
#17

zombiegleemax

Mar 27, 2007 18:27:12
Well if you think about it, considering the times and technology level and all the like and sort, Piracy even in the real world is not so easy.. the oceans are a big place and since there have been ships on the oceans, there has been some form of Pirate to try to pillage and loot whatever they can from them.

It boils down to where there is a will, there is a way. If there is a crew on a space fairing pirate ship, they are pretty much going to be 24/7 working on and thinking about ways to catch, board, raid other ships.

Technically if you want to use the vastness of space as the reason it's not likely... try not to think about it that hard... hehe, just enjoy the setting and options of Pirates attacking a ship for some ship to ship combat in space using spells!

The Star Trek series are a good example of how random encounters in space can work, really.... basically all of said series are long series of random encounters.. heh
#18

rhialto

Mar 27, 2007 18:48:58
My take on random encounters is that, in *deep* space, they just don't happen (except for some monsters that have abilities unlike most ships). Space si just too big, and between sensors being very short ranged in SJ and all ships having the exact same speed, it isn't possibel to plot any kind of interception course that will succeed.

Instead, most pirates lurk for long periods around areas where merchant ships must slow down - asteroid fields, and just beyond the outer limits of major planets and bases. Essentially, they plant themselves in the flight path of where merchants will be going anyway.
#19

bigmac

Mar 28, 2007 15:56:39
Some thoughts - there has been a discussion on the visability of ships in wildspace, IIRC, it was established that spelljamming ships left a sort of magical 'wake' when they travelled, it is possible that such a wake may be visible to another helmsman within a reasonable large range, relatively speaking, say about 1 million miles? (related thought - can cloaking helms cloak their wake?). The wake may even be visible to certain space critters with sufficiently acute (or arcane) eyesight.

Your wake wouldn't be much use to pirates as all ships that are in open wildspace travel at the same speed (spelljammer speed). If the pirates travelled along the wake they wouldn't be able to close the distance to their prey. If they tried to take a short cut (assuming their prey was flying a curved course) they would loose the trail and have to slow down to regain contact with it.

Likewise, free-flying wildspace predators may live like many real-world reptiles, being able to go for long periods without food, so they just float in space, expending almost no energy, until something to eat comes into visual range - expect them to have real good eyesight as well. Although with all that, I'd still expect most creature encounters to occur near worlds or asteroids - where the likelyhood of finding food is a lot higher.

Some of the SJ critters are like this. However, the question was about pirates and unless the pirates are undead they couldn't afford to adopt this strategy for long periods of time.

Anyway tauster is looking for justification for encounters at speed. Lets try to come up with some ways to cheat the odds and make them happen.

I am not sure about the eyesight-range, but I can imagine a whole series of divination spells centered around locating spelljamming objects (ships or beings) having been not only developed centuries/millenia ago, but as well being widely known in spelljamming society.

I think that some spells like that would be known. But you have two problems.

Firstly the sort of range you would need to detect a ship would be fairly epic. This may well bump up the level of the spell and make it impossible for low level spellcasters to cast this spell.

Secondly spellcasters who do cast spells have restricted abilities if they spelljam afterwards. This means that if you did blow some of your spelljamming potential on detecting possible pirates, you would be less useful at out running them at tactical speed.

After all, locating other ships (or beings/monsters is a basic aspect of naval travelling, and should be as well when spelljamming.

I think "the basic aspect of naval travelling is" is actually navigation rather than locating ships or creatures. On the sea, getting lost can mean death. Even when people learned to calculate their latitude (distance north or south of the equator) they still couldn't navigate without error. People used to sail due west or east until they hit land and then follow the land north or south.

The British were lucky enough to work out accurate time calculations first. (The French actually were trying to do the same calculations at the same time as the Brits, but had some bad luck and were also sabotaged by the Brits.) This allowed the British ships to sail diagonal courses and get to their destinations faster. And this extra speed was partly responsible for the success of the British Empire, because it allowed the Royal Navy to make better use of its ships.

If we take this discussion back to Spelljammer, then I would suggest that the Elven Imperial Navy should have the best navigators, the best star charts and possibly the ability to calculate the time accurately. And I would also suggest that this would be an industrial secret rather than common knowledge.

Some groups like the Celestians and the Seekers might also have worked this information out, but everyday traders and pirates should not have the same level of knowledge. After all if they were rich enough to calculate that sort of information they could afford to hire minions to go out and do their work for them.

I think that most spacefarers should be NPCs below 10th level and that (if they have a choice) pirates should be picking on the ships that look least able to defend themselves.

So we would need someone who writes up a few location-spells with different power levels...

I'm not sure you need a "few" spells. I can't see that you would need more than one or two. You could either try to magically enhance someone's eyesight or use something similar to the "Detect Evil" spell to sweap an arc of space.

If you want to enhance eyesight then don't forget that some creatures have very accurate eyesight. You could get someone to use the animal training skill to teach an animal to make a signal when it sees something. Birds would be especially useful as they could fly around the ship and look in all directions.

I'm not sure about the eyesight of parrots, but I think a pirate with a parrot that cries "Ship ahoy! Ship ahoy!" would be pretty cool! It would be fun to have the PCs who defeat the pirates "win" this parrot as part of their treasure and have it skwark this and other things (perhaps ship commands like "Full Ahead!") at inappropriate times.

My take on random encounters is that, in *deep* space, they just don't happen (except for some monsters that have abilities unlike most ships). Space si just too big, and between sensors being very short ranged in SJ and all ships having the exact same speed, it isn't possibel to plot any kind of interception course that will succeed.

Instead, most pirates lurk for long periods around areas where merchant ships must slow down - asteroid fields, and just beyond the outer limits of major planets and bases. Essentially, they plant themselves in the flight path of where merchants will be going anyway.

The lurking certainly works and asteroid belts like The Grinder would probably have a lot of pirates working in them. But if pirates become too common in an area then they could be hunted down.

I think that a pirate ship should be able to travel along a trade route and have a chance at a random encounter with a ship going in the opposite direction. I know that those victim ships might not be going in an exact straight line, but the pirates would know that too. Pirate captains and pirate navigators would try to out-think the navigators of their prey.

Occasionally a skillful pirate navigator would be able to guess the sort of course an incoming ship will be taking. Occasionally a skillful pirate lookout would be able to spot a small dim moving star that is actually a ship travelling towards them.

Maybe the DC for these sort of rolls should be an epic target, but there should be a chance for this to happen.

One way to increase the chance of piracy is to increase the number of trade ships and throw in fishing ships hunting for wildspace creatures like scavvers. If you create enough target ships then pirates (and by the same logic slavers like the Neogi) would have enough success to remain in business.

Piracy (and slavery) would need to be a small percentage to stop the spacefarer community being put out of business by them. If pirates were a small percentage then the numbers would act in their favor - it would be statistically hard for other ships to find them, but statistically easy for them to find other ships.
#20

rhialto

Mar 28, 2007 19:14:03
The lurking certainly works and asteroid belts like The Grinder would probably have a lot of pirates working in them. But if pirates become too common in an area then they could be hunted down.

I think that a pirate ship should be able to travel along a trade route and have a chance at a random encounter with a ship going in the opposite direction. I know that those victim ships might not be going in an exact straight line, but the pirates would know that too. Pirate captains and pirate navigators would try to out-think the navigators of their prey.

This strategy would work in a wet navy context. Planetside, the ports of call simply don't move, and so the position of the trade route will not change. Which means that a pirate could just hold position on a known route (technically an incredible feat in the age of sail though).

In space, the ports of call (planets) are moving in an orbit. This means that the trade route a merchant ship uses today will be very different from the path taken by a merchant ship next week, even though they are travelling between the exact same pair of ports.

Essentially, in space there is no such thing as a "trade route" which you can daw on a map and be certain there will be a large number of ships present. The best you could hope for is a very thin "cloud" of ships between the general orbit areas of the two ports of call. Except in extremely heavily populated systems, this isn't going to be enough traffic to make piracy a reliable strategy.

One way to increase the chance of piracy is to increase the number of trade ships and throw in fishing ships hunting for wildspace creatures like scavvers. If you create enough target ships then pirates (and by the same logic slavers like the Neogi) would have enough success to remain in business.

Piracy (and slavery) would need to be a small percentage to stop the spacefarer community being put out of business by them. If pirates were a small percentage then the numbers would act in their favor - it would be statistically hard for other ships to find them, but statistically easy for them to find other ships.

The SF game Traveller has a simialr perennial debate about the effectiveness of piracy, and one common assumption is that most "pirates" are actually operating under letters of marque issued by various governments. This probably works in SJ too as an explanation for pirates. Such pirates would generally operate as merchant ships, but more heavily armed, and prone to making opportunity attacks on easy targets. This is the so-called "ethically challenged merchant".
#21

bigmac

Apr 03, 2007 15:08:52
This strategy would work in a wet navy context. Planetside, the ports of call simply don't move, and so the position of the trade route will not change. Which means that a pirate could just hold position on a known route (technically an incredible feat in the age of sail though).

In space, the ports of call (planets) are moving in an orbit. This means that the trade route a merchant ship uses today will be very different from the path taken by a merchant ship next week, even though they are travelling between the exact same pair of ports.

Essentially, in space there is no such thing as a "trade route" which you can daw on a map and be certain there will be a large number of ships present. The best you could hope for is a very thin "cloud" of ships between the general orbit areas of the two ports of call. Except in extremely heavily populated systems, this isn't going to be enough traffic to make piracy a reliable strategy.

Planets may move in wildspace, but that doesn't mean that the don't have "trade routes" - it just means that they have moving trade routes. Using celestial mechanics you can plot the movement of both planets and therefore also plot the movement of that trade route.

I'll admit it is a lot more complex that groundling sea navigation, but there is a chance that a skilled navigator can guess work out where that moving line is now (or is going to be in the future).

So I don't think this is an impossible task. A pirate might be looking for a needle in a haystack, but he isn't looking for a grain of salt in a dessert.

The important thing to remember is that there are lots of merchant ships for every pirate. So it is easier* for anyone (including a pirate) to find a random merchant ship than it is for anyone (including a pirate hunter) to find a random pirate. And hunting down a specific merchant ship or specific pirate ship would be very very difficult.

* = I use the word easier in relative terms (i.e. its "easier" not "easy"). By this I mean that most random encounters should be with non-pirate ships.
#22

the_ubbergeek

Apr 07, 2007 22:09:54
Honestly, I dont see what's the problem with random encounters outside of settled places. Some beings moves, or even are nomadic. The world is not a static place.
#23

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

Apr 09, 2007 13:34:18
Real world pirates either:
a) attacked on narrow, well defined target areas, such as a major trade route going through a strait.
b) had spies in their employ to tell the routes.
c) raided the ports, which didn't move and had vast amounts of loot.

Unless pirates have some magical means of working out a ship's route, or espionage, there is NO WAY, they could make a reasonably reliable living.

Think about it a minute guys. SJ ships only slow down to combat speeds in a mile or so of another body weighting 1+ ton. Do you have any idea how big the ocean is and the odds of a vessel meeting another one on the open ocean, before the 1600s? That by comparison to the distances in SJ, is like comparing a busy city street to Antartica!

We're not just talking distances of a few hundred or a few thousand miles....we're talking MILLIONS of miles, and in 3 dimensions.

I have no problem with a "random" encounter occuring. WIld space has things in it. But for ships to hunt down other ships, or creatures...magic, supernatural abilities etc woudl have to occur.
#24

maldin

Apr 09, 2007 22:46:01
I think we're all in agreement that there are alot of factors conspiring against the pirates' success, and we're all equally in agreement, I think, that piracy still happens because... well... thats a major roleplaying aspect of the campaign setting and part of the reason why the setting is fun (fun being the reason why we play the game in the first place). All the more reason to come up with excuses... err... explanatory mechanics ;) (like my original post about "helm attraction") that facilitate the believability of these important aspects of the setting.

What ever reason works for you, the DM, is all that is necessary.

Denis, aka "Maldin"
==============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!
#25

tauster

Apr 10, 2007 3:46:42
...lot's of good ideas and approaches!

So let's find more excu... *ahem* explanations for the existence of wildspace (and even phlogiston) piracy.

Plying trade routes
Please let's assume that there indeed is a method to ply the route between two moving objects, for example Toril and Anadia, with a reasonable chance of meating other ships.

Even without knowing a ship's course from spying, you could wait on some point of a trade route (or move with it, in case of both end points of the route being moving objects) and see what's coming your way. Let's just assume that this is a viable way of meeting other ships - for the sake of the spelljammer feeling.

My reasoning, rules-wise and from a (partly) metagaming point of view:
We have the two skills "navigation, wildspace" and "navigation, phlogiston". If I want my players to spent skill points on these two instead of much more interesting stuff, I have to give them something for that. Just reaching their destination without trouble won't be enough reward for them.

This applies all the more if one uses the 2nd edition rules and incorporates cool feats from 3.x as house rules! Why else should the swashbuckler (fighter/shapeshifter), who doubles as navigator (because of his background) spent points on better navigation when there are all those cool combat and thieving feats/skills there? Answer: Only if he would be the one who sniffs out the destination of an interesting (rich, or story-wise interesting) target ship and afterwards, sits down and calculates the optimal point of interception.


spying
My favourite. Even when pirates ply trade routes between worlds, knowing when a ship leaves port and where it goes is a major advantage - one that would be profitable even if you have to share a part of the bounty with a network of corrupt dock workers, harbor masters, customs officers or/and professional spies (you'll better have spies in more than one port!).

Mind-reading magic may come into play, as well as *rimshot* psionics. Finally, that's an area where I actually don't have qualms when using psionics on either the pc's or the npc's side!

The party's rogues can shine when climbing around tavern roofs to eavesdrop on ship captains, navigators or helmsmen sitting in their rented room to discuss the next move(s).

Divinations can be used: finally, it would make sense to play a Diviner (2nd edition wizard specialist) - oh the joy of clairvoyance and clairaudienece! And long live "wizard's eye"! :D

Other possibilities are crystal balls: just sniff out the navigator's notes on his desk and presto - you have the next course - even without having to calculate the coordinates yourself! Of course, leaving false coordinates on the desk can be a good countermeasure from the navigators side...

In short: spying can contribute hugely to the game, adding the feeling of intrigue and making live in a port much more interesting.
What other alternatives do you see?
#26

zombiegleemax

May 01, 2007 18:39:01
If I had players who, once attacked by pirates in wildspace, started complaining that it wasn't statistically viable then I'd just shrug and say, "Oh, you want that level of realism? Ok. Remember your little air envelope? Yeah, the vacumn just sucked it away. Enjoy asphyxiation."
#27

rhialto

May 02, 2007 1:02:35
Sory asher, that's apples and oranges.

It's not that we want realism as such. What we want is for it to be consistent within the context of its own backstory. The setting has given a satisfactory explanation for why the air sticks around - it is done magically. The setting hasn't given an explanation for why piracy is viable as a way of life.

Also, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html
#28

zombiegleemax

May 02, 2007 13:15:08
Its not a viable way of life. Any pirate preying on ships out in the middle of wildspace is probably not having a very good time and is desperate to attack any ship they can find.

But even assuming their not, here's why those low chances of pirates finding a ship to attack work:

I always assume in D&D games I play that the adventurers are the most unlucky bastards around. They always seem to stumble into the abandoned temple just as the drow are summoning demons, find the lost Chalice of Shub-Niggurath right before its awakened, and also bump into every wandering monster, zombie, or bandit in the forest between them and their destination.

Add the well proven unluckyness factor of all adventurers into the equation, and it all pans out quite nicely.
#29

karn_dragonsbane

May 05, 2007 10:31:28
Actually, it´s rather easy for me to imagine that encounters are possible.

Everyone is going to and coming from the same friken ten dozen points. And that´s almost all of Wildspace´s transit. Although they move a bit, you´ll have to admit the amount of possible routes with any hope of seeing any action are limited. So hunting monsters, pirates, and everyone else will move into those points as soon as they can.
#30

jaid

May 05, 2007 16:18:45
except for the fact that most systems include asteroid belts, which presumably have many destinations within them. that kinda makes for a significantly increased number of destinations.
#31

nightdruid

May 05, 2007 17:00:52
except for the fact that most systems include asteroid belts, which presumably have many destinations within them. that kinda makes for a significantly increased number of destinations.

Of course, if a significant portion of those asteroids are habitable, you could have staggering huge populations from which to draw your random encounters.
#32

yellowdingo

May 05, 2007 21:42:29
The Manticore

"Captain!"
"What is it number one?"
"Small moon aproaching off the port bow sir!"
Captain Halav looked up from his Mystaran Almanac at the approaching sphere.
"That no moon!"


DM Briefing: This spherical spelljammer consists of a large sphere with over two thousand port holes on the outer shell. Out ever port hole across this vessel is heavy ballista. For the crew moving on the deck below this sphere, they are simply firing up and out a hole from their deck position.
Below the battle deck is the crew quarters. The rooms are hexagon shaped as are the hallway sections that weave between them.
Below the Crew deck In the heart of the ship is a massive hollow occupied by a great brass gyroscope on which is mounted a large helm that powers the ship.
#33

karn_dragonsbane

May 07, 2007 11:25:14
Well, even then. The amount of routes is small enough; no more than a few hundred. How many places do you expect to be important at all in an asteroid belt? Of course there are less populated areas, of course.
Dingo, are you some kind of AI experiment? I don´t get how can someone like that have a thousand one posts.
#34

nightdruid

May 07, 2007 12:16:50
Well, even then. The amount of routes is small enough; no more than a few hundred. How many places do you expect to be important at all in an asteroid belt? Of course there are less populated areas, of course.

Depends. An asteroid belt could have thousands of ports, if a DM wished it. If a DM wanted to, the SJ rules could be used to create "green belts", where every asteroid was an island oasis, each with a few hundred to a few thousand inhabitants. Or create enormous worlds supporting populations in the billions, even areas of hunter-gather socities.

One nice thing is that the DM can really set up any way he wants
#35

rhialto

May 07, 2007 13:21:18
The problem there with such a large network of ports is that it would inevitably develop a local "navy/police force/coast guard" if there is enough commerce traffic that pirates might become interested.
#36

nightdruid

May 07, 2007 13:26:57
The problem there with such a large network of ports is that it would inevitably develop a local "navy/police force/coast guard" if there is enough commerce traffic that pirates might become interested.

Not necessarilly. It wouldn't be a whole lot different than the Caribbean or the South China Sea. Even today, piracy is still problem, despite those being some of the most heavily populated areas on Earth. Patrols can't be everywhere, and pirates can blend in quite well with the local populations
#37

karn_dragonsbane

May 08, 2007 13:12:35
Depends. An asteroid belt could have thousands of ports, if a DM wished it. If a DM wanted to, the SJ rules could be used to create "green belts", where every asteroid was an island oasis, each with a few hundred to a few thousand inhabitants. Or create enormous worlds supporting populations in the billions, even areas of hunter-gather socities.

One nice thing is that the DM can really set up any way he wants

Yup, but whether he does it or not, you won´t visit all the thousand locations. If he desires, there could be all the routes he wants, but even then, there are so many more jammers when there are so many more routes.
#38

yellowdingo

May 09, 2007 3:45:34
Yup, but whether he does it or not, you won´t visit all the thousand locations. If he desires, there could be all the routes he wants, but even then, there are so many more jammers when there are so many more routes.

There was another kind of port that pirates frequented. The was only one reference to it in a very old book, but it was called a Drift Port. Basicly a group of ships meet and Dock in open waters at a time and place prearranged. It allowed a trade of cargo without the Taxes of regular ports, it was effectively a pirate city-state.

It still happens to a minor extent. Fishing Pirates of Indonesia use it in Australian Waters. The smaller fishing boats meet the resupply/trade vessel at a prearranged time and place.
#39

tauster

May 09, 2007 11:19:18
There was another kind of port that pirates frequented. The was only one reference to it in a very old book, but it was called a Drift Port. Basicly a group of ships meet and Dock in open waters at a time and place prearranged. It allowed a trade of cargo without the Taxes of regular ports, it was effectively a pirate city-state.

It still happens to a minor extent. Fishing Pirates of Indonesia use it in Australian Waters. The smaller fishing boats meet the resupply/trade vessel at a prearranged time and place.

hmmm... a "wandering port"... sounds like a great idea! reminds me of the magefairs on toril, btw.

advantages of a wandering port:
- it comes with the built-in hook for the PCs to find it.
- you don't need huge and detailed city-maps, just a few ship counters (perhaps with some interior ship maps)
- you don't need to think about relations between the port and its neighbours (alliances, enemies, etc...)
- it's ultra-flexible in terms it's population: you don't have a "static cast of npc's" like in traditional settlements if you don't want (because everytime a wandering port meets different people might show up) and it's bound to be small, so you don't have to come up with supporting infrastructure (nearby farming asteroids etc.)

...any disadvantages or troublesome points DM's would have to consider?

it seems to me that wandering ports might be a favourite meeting method for pirates and most illicit traders: they can meet in the open because they don't have to hide from authorities when none are around! :P