In terms of the cultural weapons, there were some real oddities. The Hutaaka, Malpheggi Lizardmen, and the Krugel Orcs all have the crossbow listed as a cultural weapon. Yet a couple of other cultures from the same time frame (c.500 BC) don't have the crossbow listed- notably, the Nithians (probably a couple others too; I don't recall offhand). I believe some elvish cultures also have the crossbow listed, as do the Kogolor dwarves.
Now, the dwarves I could potentially see, as well as the elves (possibly). But the Nithians were the most advanced culture in the Known World at the time, presumably with contact with the dwarves of the northlands/Rockhome, and yet they don't have access to crossbows? Moreover, the relatively primitive lizardmen and orcs of the Broken Lands do?
The other thing, related, was that the Hutaaka are listed as having Iron Age technologies, to the point of being able to create steel. Yet their Traldar proteges/serfs were only capable of bronzework. The only way this makes sense to me is if a) you make the argument that the hutaaka didn't teach all of their most advanced craft to the Traldar for some reason (maybe they didn't want them to surpass them?) or b) that the hutaaka somehow advanced from bronze age to iron/steel work in the 500 years after they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Neither explanation seems terribly reasonable to me.
Also, the Malpheggi are listed as having early iron age technology (possibly acceptable), while the Krugel orcs are listed as iron age/steel forged- meaning the humanoids of the western lands (the Krugel horde being just a small tribe of them) were more technologically advanced than the Nithians.
(Again, an argument could possibly be made that the Nithians pursued magical development rather than technological, but still. Although it would give a reason why the humanoids dominated much of the Known World for so long- aside from their sheer numbers and brutality, that is.)
While looking over the Hollow World Player's Guide last night, I noticed something that struck me funny. Two things, really.
In terms of the cultural weapons, there were some real oddities. The Hutaaka, Malpheggi Lizardmen, and the Krugel Orcs all have the crossbow listed as a cultural weapon. Yet a couple of other cultures from the same time frame (c.500 BC) don't have the crossbow listed- notably, the Nithians (probably a couple others too; I don't recall offhand). I believe some elvish cultures also have the crossbow listed, as do the Kogolor dwarves.
None of these should have crossbows; crossbows don't show up until post-Roman Empire in the real world, a good long ways into the Iron Age.
The other thing, related, was that the Hutaaka are listed as having Iron Age technologies, to the point of being able to create steel. Yet their Traldar proteges/serfs were only capable of bronzework. The only way this makes sense to me is if a) you make the argument that the hutaaka didn't teach all of their most advanced craft to the Traldar for some reason (maybe they didn't want them to surpass them?) or b) that the hutaaka somehow advanced from bronze age to iron/steel work in the 500 years after they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Neither explanation seems terribly reasonable to me.
Given their patron immortal acts like he's the brother of Crom the Uncaring, it wouldn't surprise me if his Hutaakans just gave the Traldars bronze because teaching them ironworking would be too much effort.
Depending on where tin and copper are found relative to iron in Traladara, it might be a lot easier for them to make bronze than iron, anyway.
Also, the Malpheggi are listed as having early iron age technology (possibly acceptable), while the Krugel orcs are listed as iron age/steel forged- meaning the humanoids of the western lands (the Krugel horde being just a small tribe of them) were more technologically advanced than the Nithians.
The Malpheggi were supposed to be super-advanced lizardmen killed by disease, right?
As for the Krugel horde, historically, barbarians were first adopters for iron weapons, which they then used to beat up a lot of Bronze age kingdoms. This happens in Greece post-Mycenae, for example, when the Dorians invade.
Given they show up at the tag end of Nithian history, iron weapons may have been one of the late era things purged from Nithian culture when moved to the Hollow World.
In the case of the Nithians (or another group) not using the crossbow I'd say it could merely be a cultural attitude. Say something along the lines that using a mechanical force to propel a projectile removes the 'spiritual element' from the fight. Or something like that.
Basically, there can be reasons why a culture would not utilize a technology even though they are advanced enough to have knowledge of the principles behind it.
If you'll remember your RW history, ~150 years after they became popular Pope Innocent II declared their use illegal in Christendom because they made killing too easy (easier to use, and could punch through any armor).
I'd probably remove them from the list just to keep more with the Ancient World feel of the Hollow World. The Krugel Orcs are problematic in many ways, but I still think they should be an ancient world culture inspired by Mexicans rather than taking that analogy too far.
The main Missile weapons in the Hollow World should be Bows, Javelins, slings and atl-atls (javelin-throwers) IMO.
Havard
The other thing, related, was that the Hutaaka are listed as having Iron Age technologies, to the point of being able to create steel. Yet their Traldar proteges/serfs were only capable of bronzework. The only way this makes sense to me is if a) you make the argument that the hutaaka didn't teach all of their most advanced craft to the Traldar for some reason (maybe they didn't want them to surpass them?) or b) that the hutaaka somehow advanced from bronze age to iron/steel work in the 500 years after they cut themselves off from the rest of the world. Neither explanation seems terribly reasonable to me.
From my understanding, the secret of Bronzeworking was kept from the Traldar to keep them under control. So the Traldar only achieved mastery of Bronze when a young chieftain named Halav showed them how to. From that I assumed that the Hutaakans were at a Bronze Age level though, rather than two stages beyond their human minions.
Actually the story might make more sense if Halav had discovered how to forge iron if we go by the assumption that the Hutaakans already knew this.
Havard
They never forgot the scientific secrets the Hutaaka had taught them- the forging of iron, the use of the loom and pottery wheel, and techniques of agriculture...
The Gaz also makes reference to Halav and his people using bronze weaponry and armor, though, so I think Allston may have even gotten his own history a bit muddled.
There actually seems to be a discrepancy. While the HW set lists the Traldar as being Bronze Age, Gaz1 says this in the portion of "Ancient History as the DM Knows It" (p.13):
The Gaz also makes reference to Halav and his people using bronze weaponry and armor, though, so I think Allston may have even gotten his own history a bit muddled.
Weird.
Although I can accept upgrading the Traldar to a Bronze Age culture under Hutaakan dominance. The Hutaakans did not want to share their knowledge of Iron, but Halav discovered it for himself, bringing weapons of Steel to the Traldar, which they used to free themselves of the Hutaakans and then withstand the Gnoll invasions.
The Traldar Golden Age begins around this time and ends with the death of Halav, sending the Traldar (now Traladarans) into their Dark Age which lasted untill the Thyatian invasion.
Havard
The Krugel Orcs are problematic in many ways, but I still think they should be an ancient world culture inspired by Mexicans rather than taking that analogy too far.
I think Krugels are inspired to real world Mexicans, but the ones you can find in a western movie, with guns, cows and gold mines; border skirmishes with Yankees and so on.
Of course, they could have no guns in a HW setting, so the use crossbows, the nearest avaliable weapon to a gun.
Also look at the picture in the HW boxed set: the Krugel Orc is much like a cowboy, more than a real world 1000 AD Mexican ( = Incas I think).
That' why the use crossbows, in my humble opinion.
Also look at the picture in the HW boxed set: the Krugel Orc is much like a cowboy, more than a real world 1000 AD Mexican ( = Incas I think).
I think they're supposed to be more like the gauchos of the Pampas, though they are certainly the major inspiration for the American Cowboy.
That' why the use crossbows, in my humble opinion.
Granted- I'm near certain that was the intent. It just doesn't seem to fit with their "historical" origins, is the point I was trying to make. Crossbows at that time period (500 BC) seem possibly anachronistic (though Mystara has never really followed any strict "rules" for technological development), but mostly because they are in the hands of orcs, who are generally regarded as technologically more primitive than other races, yet the other major races of the time (notably humans) don't seem to have this technology yet.
Why not let the first KW crossbows be developed by them. After all, the humanoids are fairly bright in designing war machines. Since the whole mess of them got transported to the HW, the technology could have been lost to subsequent humanoids. Dwarves could have found the simple constructs amid the battlefield rubble and been inspired to design the modern light and heavy crossbows.
Just a thought.
OldDawg
Consider that the Krugel Orcs were an elite part of a massive humanoid explosion after the collapse of Nithia that went on to invade Rockhome.
Why not let the first KW crossbows be developed by them. After all, the humanoids are fairly bright in designing war machines. Since the whole mess of them got transported to the HW, the technology could have been lost to subsequent humanoids. Dwarves could have found the simple constructs amid the battlefield rubble and been inspired to design the modern light and heavy crossbows.
Sounds like a reasonable theory to me
I'd like to keep the Gaucho Krugel parallell as vague as possible to avoid it becoming comical. The Krugels may have the crossbow, but I dont see any reason why the Nithians, Hutaakans, Kogolor or others should have them...
Havard
Why not let the first KW crossbows be developed by them. After all, the humanoids are fairly bright in designing war machines.
The impression I've always gotten from Gaz10 is that the War Machines are really just big agglomerations of existing technologies, rather than being wholly unique and inspired creations. (And I'm using the word technology loosely here, as many of the pictures don't even really use technology- some of the War Machines are based around armored monsters/animals, for instance).
In other words, it seems to me that the War Machines are little more than a bunch of spears, ballistae, armor, etc. slapped on to a wagon/elephant/owlbear or the like. Novel creations, to be sure, but not requiring anything on the level of the skill and knowledge needed to create springs and the like, or just the general innovation needed.
In any event, maybe I'll just assume they stole the know-how from the dwarves, since the dwarves and elves of the time seemed to have crossbow technologies. It would fit with the scavenging nature of the humanoids.
In any event, maybe I'll just assume they stole the know-how from the dwarves, since the dwarves and elves of the time seemed to have crossbow technologies. It would fit with the scavenging nature of the humanoids.
This is a very good possibility as well. The only thing I'd present as another possibilty is that it was the gnomes who first invented the crossbow, and subsequently passed it on to the dwarves, etc. (this will make one of my players very proud since he currently has a gnome PC ;) ). After-all, they need a way to artificially produce greater force just to be on the same level as the typical human, dwarf, etc.
If you'll remember your RW history, ~150 years after they became popular Pope Innocent II declared their use illegal in Christendom because they made killing too easy (easier to use, and could punch through any armor).
Meant to comment on this, but forgot.
Despite Pope Innocent II condemning them and declaring them illegal for Christians to use in 1139, crossbows were still in wide use until the advent of handguns, up until around the 16th century. From what I can tell, there isn't any single nation that actually took that decree to heart and removed their usage entirely from their armies (though I'd be interested to see if it happened; I'm certainly no military scholar by any means, so may well be wrong in this.)
Meant to comment on this, but forgot.
Despite Pope Innocent II condemning them and declaring them illegal for Christians to use in 1139, crossbows were still in wide use until the advent of handguns, up until around the 16th century. From what I can tell, there isn't any single nation that actually took that decree to heart and removed their usage entirely from their armies (though I'd be interested to see if it happened; I'm certainly no military scholar by any means, so may well be wrong in this.)
Not only that, but crossbowmen were critical to the crusading armies in the Holy Land, keeping the Muslim light cavalry and mounted archers from picking off the infantry. In fact Richard the Lionheart kept his column in one piece marching down the coast by clever integration of mounted knight, crossbowman, and heavy infantry. Without the crossbowmen, he and his army would likely have been destroyed in Outremer by Saladin.