Fiendish Codex II Athasian Repercussions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Fiendish Codex II Athasian Repercussions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
terminus_vortexa
Feb 25, 2007 17:46:29 I just got Fiendish Codex II, and with the rules they lay out for the ecology of Devils, the future of Athas would be extremely grim if minions of Baator found their way there. They may be linked to their plane in an ephemereal sense, but they don't require contact with it because the fuel for their powers and existences is SOULS. They don't derive their powers from their home plane, they take them from the torture inflicted on souls! The alignment of the souls doesn't even matter, or else they wouldn't just be able to buy souls from Night Hags and other barterers, which they do commonly, without care fore the alignment of the souls in question. The only thing that stops them from just taking any soul they want from the Material Plane is the Pact Primeval that Asmodeus made with the gods, which hammered out that souls go to the plane of their alignment when they die, and the specific realm of their respective deity within that plane.

Athas has neither Outer Planes, nor Gods. The gods don't even watch Athas, and probably can't.

If a Devil could find his way to Athas, and specifically the Grey, all he would have to do is lurk in the Grey and torture souls at his leisure, soak in the divine energy released, and grow more and more powerful. If a devil soaks in enough energy, he could remake himself into a Unique Devil, like an Archduke.
And continue to grow in power, soaking in soul after soul, with no real rival, if he could prevent other Devils from arriving on Athas. Or even let in a select few minions, and limit their absorbtion and growth. Eventually, given the massive amount of uncontested soul energy, this lucky Devil could become as powerful as Asmodeus, return to Baator, and take the whole place over.
#2
redking
Feb 25, 2007 18:15:26 That assumes that the souls in the grey to do not kill the Baatezu first. The grey is their element. Even if they have no power outside the grey, or cannot leave the grey, they might have power there. Imagine the Baatezu fighting King Kalak.
#3
mouthymerc
Feb 25, 2007 18:30:58 It also presumes that the souls contain the same divine energy which allows the devil to gain power from it. Considering that there are no gods on Athas, souls may not be considered divine and therefore not have any divine energy for the devil to consume. I guess it depends on how you view souls on Athas.
#4
terminus_vortexa
Feb 25, 2007 18:50:41
It also presumes that the souls contain the same divine energy which allows the devil to gain power from it. Considering that there are no gods on Athas, souls may not be considered divine and therefore not have any divine energy for the devil to consume. I guess it depends on how you view souls on Athas.

If I understand correctly (and if I have interpreted FC II) correctly, divine energy is actually generated by souls, and harvested by gods as sustenance, and then redirected back to clerics i the form of spells. Devils just consume these energies directly. I understand that Athasian souls could be fundamentally different, but a long time ago when myself and several others were trying to make a Planes of Athas project (it just kind of disintegrated), we came to the conclusion that souls were the same on Athas as elswhere, and even theorized that the Elements gained divine energy from their relationship with the Grey, where souls are broken down into raw divine energy and redirected into the Inner Planes, which fuel life on Athas, and eventually the energy is reclaimed by the Grey and the cycle continues. Holding to that theory, Devil ecology could remain exactly the same, and souls could be consumed as normal.

As for entities like Kalak, they could present a challenge, although how much power he has a as a dead SK is up for debate, and I think a high-up devil like a Pit Fiend could probably hold their own after absorbing enough souls. Maybe....
#5
cnahumck
Feb 25, 2007 23:28:43 TV, that planes of Athas project sounds interesting. PM me to clue me in, I have something in the works for the Black.

And we need to be ready for devils on Athas, with Dregoth's connection to it laid out in CbtSS.
#6
dirk00001
Feb 26, 2007 10:08:52 I gave my thoughts on this awhile back in a different thread (http://209.221.178.225/showthread.php?t=749075) - start about 1/2 way down as the thread started on a different topic than it ended on.

Beyond the contents of that thread, IMO you're missinterpreting something from the FCII - the devils gain power by harvesting souls, true, but it's all a "trickle-up' effect; when a lowly devil harvests a soul's "divine spark" that power flows up to the top of the chain of command, and the lower-ranking devil doesn't really gain anything directly - it's his superiors that do. Those superiors will reward a good harvester devil with additional power, but given the devil's lawful nature it just doesn't work in such a way that a low-ranking devil, cut off from Baator, would be able to somehow gain immense amounts of power from Athasian souls. Basically, in order for devils to harvest souls from Athas, they need some way of "shortcutting" from Athas to Baator, totally skipping the Gray and any other barriers in their way. Based on the original 2e cosmology, this really isn't possible - a devil would have to physically take an entire body back with them to Baator in order to be able to harvest the soul out of it, as the Gray likes to eat souls and anyway, it isn't "directly connected" to the Outer Planes in any specific way.

So in the end, as was discussed in that other thread, you'd probably need some sort of artifact (such as Dregoth's Planar Gate) in order for Baatzu to be able to successfully harvest Athasian souls.
#7
brun01
Feb 26, 2007 10:42:40 The Crimson, (TotDL, page 28) already fill this niche. They would have to wrestle them for the souls.
#8
alder_fiter_galaz
Feb 26, 2007 11:06:46 I played 2nd edition Dark Sun. The DM once make us fight against devils in Athas.

His assuption is simple, if a devil ever get into Athas he is someway trapped inside -the conexion to Baator as the chain of command is broken and the gate ability is useless- and manage to survive learning to eating souls directly and doing what ever he or she can. Just imagine a trader who turn to be a big pit fiend adapted to Athas.

I remember some characters in Dark Sun manage to travel the planes, such as the ones in Sigil (of Planescape setting) and Dregoth, the undead dragon king himself traveling the planes and now wants to be the first god of Athas.

An adapted fiend template will be a good addition to Dark Sun 3.5. Maybe an adapted devil can gate grey creatures instead or somewhat similar to the grey template i see in athas org instead of all baatezu qualities.

ah, The gods can not watch Athas Terminus Vortexa.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 26, 2007 14:37:51 I think there is some material that is presented in the Book of Vile Darkness which states how souls may be used. Perhaps there would be some adaptations? It is knwon that Necromancers draw energy from the gray. Perhaps it is from the souls themselves? Maybe if a necromancer was able to do a little bit more research, this would allow them to create magic items (as presented in the book of vile darkness) at decreased xp cost. It is just an idea however.
#10
Tsuul
Mar 01, 2007 17:19:04
And continue to grow in power, soaking in soul after soul, with no real rival, if he could prevent other Devils from arriving on Athas. Or even let in a select few minions, and limit their absorbtion and growth. Eventually, given the massive amount of uncontested soul energy, this lucky Devil could become as powerful as Asmodeus, return to Baator, and take the whole place over.

What makes you think one of them hasn't already done so and is strong enough to keep others out, but not quite strong enough to take on Baator? Such a one would be wise to keep a very low profile until it's too late.

Just a musing.
#11
tykus
Mar 11, 2007 11:28:51 Slightly OT but it still fits: Personally, I think that Athas does have Outer Planes, it's just the Grey that makes it difficult. From what I've seen nearly everybody forgets about the number of Kreen on Athas. IIRC, the kreen (both tohr- and thri-), while having a reincarnation cycle of belief, they still believed that their souls went to an outer plane for a time; the Kreen of Athas book stated (in a sidebar, I believe) that their religion had a Devil named Gelug that ruled a glacier filled wasteland named Cano and a "heaven" where they could practice their hunting skills until they were reincarnated. The book even stated that these were distorted tales of gelugons, the layer of Cania, and the Beastlands. It wouldn't take much imagination to come up with Athasian variants--a psionic gelugon, Cania as a whole plane (but not ruled by Mephistophiles), and an Athas-style Beastlands (my 2nd ed. DS campaign included a couple trips to a Silt Sea location in the Beastlands). Granted, they would be much harder to get to and can't benefit PCs with divine spells, but it would make for some surreal encounters. The players have already more than likely come to terms with strangeness of Athas, the Grey, and the Inner Planes.

Imagine strangeness of the Outer Planes where the traditional devil hierarchy is absent.

Sorry for the ramble, I just see so much potential for Athasian Outer Planes (more or less based upon some descriptions from DS and PS products).

But back on-topic--that sounds like a very good campaign idea, especially for epic play, but there maybe a similar condition to the Pact Primeval in effect on Athas (more from conditions than any actual treaty).
#12
paladin2019
Mar 12, 2007 14:44:37 I remember some Spelljammer reference stating Athas was within a closed srystal sphere or somesuch. This was the source of its disconnection with deities and why Spelljammers couldn't reach it. Might this have some bearing on the discussion?
#13
terminus_vortexa
Mar 12, 2007 23:46:35 In 2E, that would have an excellent point to bring up. IIRC, though, in 3.5E the Crystal Spheres weren't carried forward into the current edition. The reasons deities can't reach Athas is the Grey prevents it.Though every DM is free to adapt older material into their setting if they choose. (Heck, that's almost 99% of what we do on this board!):D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 terminus_vortexa Feb 25, 2007 17:46:29	I just got Fiendish Codex II, and with the rules they lay out for the ecology of Devils, the future of Athas would be extremely grim if minions of Baator found their way there. They may be linked to their plane in an ephemereal sense, but they don't require contact with it because the fuel for their powers and existences is SOULS. They don't derive their powers from their home plane, they take them from the torture inflicted on souls! The alignment of the souls doesn't even matter, or else they wouldn't just be able to buy souls from Night Hags and other barterers, which they do commonly, without care fore the alignment of the souls in question. The only thing that stops them from just taking any soul they want from the Material Plane is the Pact Primeval that Asmodeus made with the gods, which hammered out that souls go to the plane of their alignment when they die, and the specific realm of their respective deity within that plane. Athas has neither Outer Planes, nor Gods. The gods don't even watch Athas, and probably can't. If a Devil could find his way to Athas, and specifically the Grey, all he would have to do is lurk in the Grey and torture souls at his leisure, soak in the divine energy released, and grow more and more powerful. If a devil soaks in enough energy, he could remake himself into a Unique Devil, like an Archduke. And continue to grow in power, soaking in soul after soul, with no real rival, if he could prevent other Devils from arriving on Athas. Or even let in a select few minions, and limit their absorbtion and growth. Eventually, given the massive amount of uncontested soul energy, this lucky Devil could become as powerful as Asmodeus, return to Baator, and take the whole place over.
#2 redking Feb 25, 2007 18:15:26	That assumes that the souls in the grey to do not kill the Baatezu first. The grey is their element. Even if they have no power outside the grey, or cannot leave the grey, they might have power there. Imagine the Baatezu fighting King Kalak.
#3 mouthymerc Feb 25, 2007 18:30:58	It also presumes that the souls contain the same divine energy which allows the devil to gain power from it. Considering that there are no gods on Athas, souls may not be considered divine and therefore not have any divine energy for the devil to consume. I guess it depends on how you view souls on Athas.
#4 terminus_vortexa Feb 25, 2007 18:50:41	It also presumes that the souls contain the same divine energy which allows the devil to gain power from it. Considering that there are no gods on Athas, souls may not be considered divine and therefore not have any divine energy for the devil to consume. I guess it depends on how you view souls on Athas. If I understand correctly (and if I have interpreted FC II) correctly, divine energy is actually generated by souls, and harvested by gods as sustenance, and then redirected back to clerics i the form of spells. Devils just consume these energies directly. I understand that Athasian souls could be fundamentally different, but a long time ago when myself and several others were trying to make a Planes of Athas project (it just kind of disintegrated), we came to the conclusion that souls were the same on Athas as elswhere, and even theorized that the Elements gained divine energy from their relationship with the Grey, where souls are broken down into raw divine energy and redirected into the Inner Planes, which fuel life on Athas, and eventually the energy is reclaimed by the Grey and the cycle continues. Holding to that theory, Devil ecology could remain exactly the same, and souls could be consumed as normal. As for entities like Kalak, they could present a challenge, although how much power he has a as a dead SK is up for debate, and I think a high-up devil like a Pit Fiend could probably hold their own after absorbing enough souls. Maybe....
#5 cnahumck Feb 25, 2007 23:28:43	TV, that planes of Athas project sounds interesting. PM me to clue me in, I have something in the works for the Black. And we need to be ready for devils on Athas, with Dregoth's connection to it laid out in CbtSS.
#6 dirk00001 Feb 26, 2007 10:08:52	I gave my thoughts on this awhile back in a different thread (http://209.221.178.225/showthread.php?t=749075) - start about 1/2 way down as the thread started on a different topic than it ended on. Beyond the contents of that thread, IMO you're missinterpreting something from the FCII - the devils gain power by harvesting souls, true, but it's all a "trickle-up' effect; when a lowly devil harvests a soul's "divine spark" that power flows up to the top of the chain of command, and the lower-ranking devil doesn't really gain anything directly - it's his superiors that do. Those superiors will reward a good harvester devil with additional power, but given the devil's lawful nature it just doesn't work in such a way that a low-ranking devil, cut off from Baator, would be able to somehow gain immense amounts of power from Athasian souls. Basically, in order for devils to harvest souls from Athas, they need some way of "shortcutting" from Athas to Baator, totally skipping the Gray and any other barriers in their way. Based on the original 2e cosmology, this really isn't possible - a devil would have to physically take an entire body back with them to Baator in order to be able to harvest the soul out of it, as the Gray likes to eat souls and anyway, it isn't "directly connected" to the Outer Planes in any specific way. So in the end, as was discussed in that other thread, you'd probably need some sort of artifact (such as Dregoth's Planar Gate) in order for Baatzu to be able to successfully harvest Athasian souls.
#7 brun01 Feb 26, 2007 10:42:40	The Crimson, (TotDL, page 28) already fill this niche. They would have to wrestle them for the souls.
#8 alder_fiter_galaz Feb 26, 2007 11:06:46	I played 2nd edition Dark Sun. The DM once make us fight against devils in Athas. His assuption is simple, if a devil ever get into Athas he is someway trapped inside -the conexion to Baator as the chain of command is broken and the gate ability is useless- and manage to survive learning to eating souls directly and doing what ever he or she can. Just imagine a trader who turn to be a big pit fiend adapted to Athas. I remember some characters in Dark Sun manage to travel the planes, such as the ones in Sigil (of Planescape setting) and Dregoth, the undead dragon king himself traveling the planes and now wants to be the first god of Athas. An adapted fiend template will be a good addition to Dark Sun 3.5. Maybe an adapted devil can gate grey creatures instead or somewhat similar to the grey template i see in athas org instead of all baatezu qualities. ah, The gods can not watch Athas Terminus Vortexa.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 26, 2007 14:37:51	I think there is some material that is presented in the Book of Vile Darkness which states how souls may be used. Perhaps there would be some adaptations? It is knwon that Necromancers draw energy from the gray. Perhaps it is from the souls themselves? Maybe if a necromancer was able to do a little bit more research, this would allow them to create magic items (as presented in the book of vile darkness) at decreased xp cost. It is just an idea however.
#10 Tsuul Mar 01, 2007 17:19:04	And continue to grow in power, soaking in soul after soul, with no real rival, if he could prevent other Devils from arriving on Athas. Or even let in a select few minions, and limit their absorbtion and growth. Eventually, given the massive amount of uncontested soul energy, this lucky Devil could become as powerful as Asmodeus, return to Baator, and take the whole place over. What makes you think one of them hasn't already done so and is strong enough to keep others out, but not quite strong enough to take on Baator? Such a one would be wise to keep a very low profile until it's too late. Just a musing.
#11 tykus Mar 11, 2007 11:28:51	Slightly OT but it still fits: Personally, I think that Athas does have Outer Planes, it's just the Grey that makes it difficult. From what I've seen nearly everybody forgets about the number of Kreen on Athas. IIRC, the kreen (both tohr- and thri-), while having a reincarnation cycle of belief, they still believed that their souls went to an outer plane for a time; the Kreen of Athas book stated (in a sidebar, I believe) that their religion had a Devil named Gelug that ruled a glacier filled wasteland named Cano and a "heaven" where they could practice their hunting skills until they were reincarnated. The book even stated that these were distorted tales of gelugons, the layer of Cania, and the Beastlands. It wouldn't take much imagination to come up with Athasian variants--a psionic gelugon, Cania as a whole plane (but not ruled by Mephistophiles), and an Athas-style Beastlands (my 2nd ed. DS campaign included a couple trips to a Silt Sea location in the Beastlands). Granted, they would be much harder to get to and can't benefit PCs with divine spells, but it would make for some surreal encounters. The players have already more than likely come to terms with strangeness of Athas, the Grey, and the Inner Planes. Imagine strangeness of the Outer Planes where the traditional devil hierarchy is absent. Sorry for the ramble, I just see so much potential for Athasian Outer Planes (more or less based upon some descriptions from DS and PS products). But back on-topic--that sounds like a very good campaign idea, especially for epic play, but there maybe a similar condition to the Pact Primeval in effect on Athas (more from conditions than any actual treaty).
#12 paladin2019 Mar 12, 2007 14:44:37	I remember some Spelljammer reference stating Athas was within a closed srystal sphere or somesuch. This was the source of its disconnection with deities and why Spelljammers couldn't reach it. Might this have some bearing on the discussion?
#13 terminus_vortexa Mar 12, 2007 23:46:35	In 2E, that would have an excellent point to bring up. IIRC, though, in 3.5E the Crystal Spheres weren't carried forward into the current edition. The reasons deities can't reach Athas is the Grey prevents it.Though every DM is free to adapt older material into their setting if they choose. (Heck, that's almost 99% of what we do on this board!):D