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New Half-Giant

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mouthymerc
Feb 26, 2007 7:55:28 When I picked up Dragon issue 352 with the adaptions of China Melville's books, I was inspired by one of the races introduced, the Cactacae. I thought it would be a good race for Athas. Then it gave me some ideas for some changes to the half-giant. Here were my thoughts:

Half-Giant Racial Traits

+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity
Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size.
Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions.
Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Psi-Like Ability: 1/day--expansion. Manifester level equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st).
Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level Adjustment: +1.

And, yes, this is a riff on the Dragon issue half-giant with some changes. And, just to be clear, I'm looking for mechanical help. If you see any reason why this is unbalanced or anything of the sort. I'm just playing with mechanics.
#2
alder_fiter_galaz
Feb 26, 2007 11:12:46 There is already a half giant (and well developed in my opinion) in www.athas.org
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 26, 2007 14:31:32 I believe that half giants are well well put into the large size catagory. I don't think that should be changed. I also think that they are much too weak in the way you present. It is stated somewhere that a half giant ripped down a wall to see the tattoo's on a mul iirc. To me, Half giants are the ideal Pawn soldiers for the sorcerer kings. They weren't meant to be easily taken down by a single human, and i feel that is a distince possibility in what you have presented.
#4
mouthymerc
Feb 26, 2007 17:33:38
There is already a half giant (and well developed in my opinion) in www.athas.org

Well, there I do not agree with you. The only thing they are good for is fighterish characters and that is too limiting, as far as I'm concerned. But, that is not the conversation I want to get into. Thanks for contributing, though.
#5
mouthymerc
Feb 26, 2007 17:36:39
They weren't meant to be easily taken down by a single human, and i feel that is a distince possibility in what you have presented.

If they are a balanced race, then a human of equivilent level should have the same chance to take a half-giant down as the half-giant has of taking him down.
#6
zombiegleemax
Feb 26, 2007 20:40:02 That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance
#7
zentinel
Feb 27, 2007 12:33:56
That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance

Well, a level 5 half-giant fighter should be able to beat a human fighter5. BUT, if Half-Giant is LA+2 (for example), then a Human Fi5 should be even with a Half-Giant Fi3.
That's the key to a balanced LA.
Now, personally, I hate large-size PC races, so I'm in favor of a Powerful Build Half-Giant.
#8
ruhl-than_sage
Feb 27, 2007 20:37:56
That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance

Indeed a Psion or Wizard of equal level (with Will Save based effects) should be able to easily defeat a Half-Giant or even take control of him and use him against his allies.
#9
mouthymerc
Feb 27, 2007 21:45:51
That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, if you are using the athas.org stats this would be true. A half-giant fighter 1 (with his 2 HD and +1 LA) should be a big threat to a human fighter 4? Is this correct? Or am I misunderstanding here? Or do you mean to imply that if both races have the same level of fighter, that the half-giant would beat down the human? If it is the latter, I can honestly say that I would not be surprised.
#10
jon_oracle_of_athas
Feb 28, 2007 12:24:35 I think he means the latter.
#11
mouthymerc
Feb 28, 2007 12:53:22 Okay, here is an alternate version that I was thinking over. This one reduces the Dexterity penalty and adds a natural armor bonus. I've changed the LA to reflect this.

Half-Giant Racial Traits

+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity
Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size.
Thick Hide: Half-giants have tough hides which give them a +1 natural armor bonus to thier armor class. This protection combines with Dexterity, magical bonuses, and worn armor.
Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions.
Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Psi-Like Ability: 1/day--expansion. Manifester level equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st).
Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level Adjustment: +2.

Does this look like enough to warrant a LA of +2?
#12
brun01
Feb 28, 2007 14:06:31 It's nice, but it doesn't feel Athasian to me. Half-giants becoming "full-giants" and naturally immune to charm person or dominate person? And why HG are fire acclimated? If they are, I think muls, TKs and dwarves would have to be too...
#13
Sysane
Feb 28, 2007 15:02:25 Personally, If you're looking to have a striped down version of half-giant I'd keep what you have, but remove fire acclimated, naturally psionic, and expansion abilities and grant them an ability similar to the improved toughness feat and another +2 to Strength for a total of +6.
#14
mouthymerc
Feb 28, 2007 15:44:57
Personally, If you're looking to have a striped down version of half-giant I'd keep what you have, but remove fire acclimated, naturally psionic, and expansion abilities and grant them an ability similar to the improved toughness feat and another +2 to Strength for a total of +6.

A stripped down version, eh? Interesting. I like EHP half-giant precisely because it is so much less limiting than the athas.org version.

That being said, I like the fire acclimation. I think the desert giants could have been used in their creation. I also think that any race acclimated to living in the desert should have some immunity to fire and heat. The sand giant from MMIII has immunity to fire and they are what I'm going to use for my desert giants. So I like the fact that i can tie the half-giants to the sand/desert giants.

As to the psionic abilities, one of the things that I particularly like about the Paizo races is that they incorporated psionics into the races. For this reason, I want to keep the psionics in. In my tinkering, though, I thought that the expansion power would be an interesting way of putting their giant heritage in there. Especially when you consider that their Powerful Build abilty carries over when they are large, giving them the benefits of a huge creature.

I will, though, consider another model without the psionics. I don't think it will interest many as they seem pretty satisfied with the athas.org one. Seems pretty clear that no one is interested in any alternate half-giant unless he is large size. It's always fun to tinker, though.
#15
mouthymerc
Feb 28, 2007 17:34:19 Okay, still not large size, but without the psionics and fire protection.

Half-Giant Racial Traits

+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity
Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size.
Thick Hide: Half-giants have tough hides which give them a +1 natural armor bonus to thier armor class. This protection combines with Dexterity, magical bonuses, and worn armor.
Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Robust: The half-giant can take more damage. The hit point die type of any class chosen by a half-giant is increased by one grade (i.e. from d4 to d6 or from d10 to d12). If the die type is d12, then the half-giant gains a +2 bonus to hit points each level.
Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level Adjustment: +2.
#16
brun01
Feb 28, 2007 17:39:53 Much better! I like it! :D
I think I would only increase his natural armor bonus to 2.
#17
mouthymerc
Feb 28, 2007 17:44:38
Much better! I like it! :D
I think I would only increase his natural armor bonus to 2.

Thought about that, but I wanted some feedback on balance. I may still bump it.
#18
Sysane
Feb 28, 2007 19:16:14 I like this. Especially the robust ability. Nicely done. Personally, I'd keep the natural armor at +1.
#19
zentinel
Mar 01, 2007 8:51:40 Robust: d12 increased should only grant +1 hit point per level.
(While the max per hit dice is +2, the average is +1 (d4 averages to 2.5, d6 averages to 3.5, d8 averages to 4.5. Logically, this means that an increase in hit dice averages one extra hit point per level, save level 1.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mouthymerc Feb 26, 2007 7:55:28	When I picked up Dragon issue 352 with the adaptions of China Melville's books, I was inspired by one of the races introduced, the Cactacae. I thought it would be a good race for Athas. Then it gave me some ideas for some changes to the half-giant. Here were my thoughts: Half-Giant Racial Traits +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -4 Dexterity Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person. Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size. Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions. Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures. Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. Psi-Like Ability: 1/day--expansion. Manifester level equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant. Favored Class: Barbarian. Level Adjustment: +1. And, yes, this is a riff on the Dragon issue half-giant with some changes. And, just to be clear, I'm looking for mechanical help. If you see any reason why this is unbalanced or anything of the sort. I'm just playing with mechanics.
#2 alder_fiter_galaz Feb 26, 2007 11:12:46	There is already a half giant (and well developed in my opinion) in www.athas.org
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 26, 2007 14:31:32	I believe that half giants are well well put into the large size catagory. I don't think that should be changed. I also think that they are much too weak in the way you present. It is stated somewhere that a half giant ripped down a wall to see the tattoo's on a mul iirc. To me, Half giants are the ideal Pawn soldiers for the sorcerer kings. They weren't meant to be easily taken down by a single human, and i feel that is a distince possibility in what you have presented.
#4 mouthymerc Feb 26, 2007 17:33:38	There is already a half giant (and well developed in my opinion) in www.athas.org Well, there I do not agree with you. The only thing they are good for is fighterish characters and that is too limiting, as far as I'm concerned. But, that is not the conversation I want to get into. Thanks for contributing, though.
#5 mouthymerc Feb 26, 2007 17:36:39	They weren't meant to be easily taken down by a single human, and i feel that is a distince possibility in what you have presented. If they are a balanced race, then a human of equivilent level should have the same chance to take a half-giant down as the half-giant has of taking him down.
#6 zombiegleemax Feb 26, 2007 20:40:02	That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance
#7 zentinel Feb 27, 2007 12:33:56	That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance Well, a level 5 half-giant fighter should be able to beat a human fighter5. BUT, if Half-Giant is LA+2 (for example), then a Human Fi5 should be even with a Half-Giant Fi3. That's the key to a balanced LA. Now, personally, I hate large-size PC races, so I'm in favor of a Powerful Build Half-Giant.
#8 ruhl-than_sage Feb 27, 2007 20:37:56	That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance Indeed a Psion or Wizard of equal level (with Will Save based effects) should be able to easily defeat a Half-Giant or even take control of him and use him against his allies.
#9 mouthymerc Feb 27, 2007 21:45:51	That is true, let me re-word that. The average human soldier vs the average half-giant soldier shoudl not stand a chance So, if I'm understanding you correctly, if you are using the athas.org stats this would be true. A half-giant fighter 1 (with his 2 HD and +1 LA) should be a big threat to a human fighter 4? Is this correct? Or am I misunderstanding here? Or do you mean to imply that if both races have the same level of fighter, that the half-giant would beat down the human? If it is the latter, I can honestly say that I would not be surprised.
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Feb 28, 2007 12:24:35	I think he means the latter.
#11 mouthymerc Feb 28, 2007 12:53:22	Okay, here is an alternate version that I was thinking over. This one reduces the Dexterity penalty and adds a natural armor bonus. I've changed the LA to reflect this. Half-Giant Racial Traits +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person. Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size. Thick Hide: Half-giants have tough hides which give them a +1 natural armor bonus to thier armor class. This protection combines with Dexterity, magical bonuses, and worn armor. Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions. Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures. Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. Psi-Like Ability: 1/day--expansion. Manifester level equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant. Favored Class: Barbarian. Level Adjustment: +2. Does this look like enough to warrant a LA of +2?
#12 brun01 Feb 28, 2007 14:06:31	It's nice, but it doesn't feel Athasian to me. Half-giants becoming "full-giants" and naturally immune to charm person or dominate person? And why HG are fire acclimated? If they are, I think muls, TKs and dwarves would have to be too...
#13 Sysane Feb 28, 2007 15:02:25	Personally, If you're looking to have a striped down version of half-giant I'd keep what you have, but remove fire acclimated, naturally psionic, and expansion abilities and grant them an ability similar to the improved toughness feat and another +2 to Strength for a total of +6.
#14 mouthymerc Feb 28, 2007 15:44:57	Personally, If you're looking to have a striped down version of half-giant I'd keep what you have, but remove fire acclimated, naturally psionic, and expansion abilities and grant them an ability similar to the improved toughness feat and another +2 to Strength for a total of +6. A stripped down version, eh? Interesting. I like EHP half-giant precisely because it is so much less limiting than the athas.org version. That being said, I like the fire acclimation. I think the desert giants could have been used in their creation. I also think that any race acclimated to living in the desert should have some immunity to fire and heat. The sand giant from MMIII has immunity to fire and they are what I'm going to use for my desert giants. So I like the fact that i can tie the half-giants to the sand/desert giants. As to the psionic abilities, one of the things that I particularly like about the Paizo races is that they incorporated psionics into the races. For this reason, I want to keep the psionics in. In my tinkering, though, I thought that the expansion power would be an interesting way of putting their giant heritage in there. Especially when you consider that their Powerful Build abilty carries over when they are large, giving them the benefits of a huge creature. I will, though, consider another model without the psionics. I don't think it will interest many as they seem pretty satisfied with the athas.org one. Seems pretty clear that no one is interested in any alternate half-giant unless he is large size. It's always fun to tinker, though.
#15 mouthymerc Feb 28, 2007 17:34:19	Okay, still not large size, but without the psionics and fire protection. Half-Giant Racial Traits +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person. Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to there size. Thick Hide: Half-giants have tough hides which give them a +1 natural armor bonus to thier armor class. This protection combines with Dexterity, magical bonuses, and worn armor. Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish colour and detail under these conditions. Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size ctegory larger. Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. Robust: The half-giant can take more damage. The hit point die type of any class chosen by a half-giant is increased by one grade (i.e. from d4 to d6 or from d10 to d12). If the die type is d12, then the half-giant gains a +2 bonus to hit points each level. Mutable Alignment: Half-giants have one part of their alignment fixed, while the other changes daily. At first level, a half-giant must choose his fixed prtion of his alignment. This can be from the lawful/neutral/chaotic portion or the good/neutral/evil portion. Once decided, it is fixed. The other portion becomes mutable and is chosen at the beginning of each day. The alignment can be the same each day, if he so chooses. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Giant. Favored Class: Barbarian. Level Adjustment: +2.
#16 brun01 Feb 28, 2007 17:39:53	Much better! I like it! :D I think I would only increase his natural armor bonus to 2.
#17 mouthymerc Feb 28, 2007 17:44:38	Much better! I like it! :D I think I would only increase his natural armor bonus to 2. Thought about that, but I wanted some feedback on balance. I may still bump it.
#18 Sysane Feb 28, 2007 19:16:14	I like this. Especially the robust ability. Nicely done. Personally, I'd keep the natural armor at +1.
#19 zentinel Mar 01, 2007 8:51:40	Robust: d12 increased should only grant +1 hit point per level. (While the max per hit dice is +2, the average is +1 (d4 averages to 2.5, d6 averages to 3.5, d8 averages to 4.5. Logically, this means that an increase in hit dice averages one extra hit point per level, save level 1.)