Imagine a typical asteroid city like Bral or Dragon Rock. There is a source of water (be it a portal to the elemantal plane of water, a decanter of endless water or whatever), but no precipitation. Also, there is not much wind or no wind at all.
How does the atmosphere clean itself? Without rain, dust and sooty particles (from smithies or hearthfires) will float around, constantly deteriorating the air envelope.
Everything landing outside the asteroids surface will sink down to the level of the gravity plane and be eventually driven out of the air envelope. But even when there are enough plants growing to replenish the oxygen, there is still a lot of dirt landing on the streets (where it will
kicked up again by the boots of pedestrians) and on the roofs (where it will accumulate).
So my question is:
Is there some way, be it mundane or magical, to get rid of the "dust-problem"? Or do I overlook something and the problem doesn't come up in the first place?
Tauster
but yeah, street sweepers also makes sense (though, in fact, people could possibly even use that dust/dirt, by adding compost, to make soil i suppose).
Mundane solutions are so cool because they illustrates that living among the stars brings problems unknown to groundlings - and shows how people deal with those difficulties instead of going the way of least resistance and living "dirt-side", where it's sooo easy: free air and water, no shortage of land to settle or grow your food (instead of having it expensively imported from elsewhere or produced under difficulties on site), etc.
It's these solutions that make Spelljammer so memorable to players: they will remember forever that session when they were on Bral during the streetsweepers strike, when dirt and dust began to pile after only a few days, threatening to choke the city. That wouldn't ever have happened in the city they were born, where dust isn't even considered a problem because the wind just carries it away...
Funny side note:
Imagine a gnomish "hodgepodge-ship" tubling and reeling over the houses of the city with long spidery "arms" ending in brooms or hamster-powered suction tubes, trying to clean the rooftops without destroying them in a crash! :D
...or said ship going crazy because of a malfunction while cleaning the roof of the inn where the party is having rooms - and having the suction tube entering through the window into the room of wizard - greedily sucking up everything loose (paper spell ingredients, small gems...) *rubs hands*
@Jaid:
Remember that 10.500GP are a freakingly huge amount of money even for a street sweeper guild when compared to the revenue such a business would likely generate. I'm not even sure how to hold the ship in the air using a nonmagical (and likely chemical) propulsion method without adding even more pollution.
Perhaps flying creatures are a more likely solution, either by riding them (griffons, tamed wyverns (who also act as defense) or more spelljammer-typical races) or employing intelligent flying creatures.
@Jaid:
Remember that 10.500GP are a freakingly huge amount of money even for a street sweeper guild when compared to the revenue such a business would likely generate. I'm not even sure how to hold the ship in the air using a nonmagical (and likely chemical) propulsion method without adding even more pollution.
Perhaps flying creatures are a more likely solution, either by riding them (griffons, tamed wyverns (who also act as defense) or more spelljammer-typical races) or employing intelligent flying creatures.
we've got regular merchants who own 100,000 gp helms and attaching them to a 20,000 gp ship as our "standard". on land, a bloody raft costs in the neighbourhood of 500gp. assuming a few people own ships that are a 'mere' 10,500 gp for ship + engine isn't going to hurt continuity any more than it's already started off with.
as far as how the propulsion system works for a nonmagical engine, i don't know. i don't worry about questions like that. it just does. since no drawbacks are listed other than the SR limitation, i assume there is no added pollution however. perhaps it's a bicycle powered device, perhaps it's just some wacky gnomish clockwork engine, perhaps it's powered by living plants that flap wings, i don't really know. that's not my job to worry about. i just read and use the rules.
Remember that 10.500GP are a freakingly huge amount of money even for a street sweeper guild when compared to the revenue such a business would likely generate.
Revenue? Since when is street-sweeping a for-profit business? I would think it'd be paid for out of taxes.
Wyvern
The question came up while I was reading Thatotherguy's writeup of Dragon Rock:
Imagine a typical asteroid city like Bral or Dragon Rock. There is a source of water (be it a portal to the elemantal plane of water, a decanter of endless water or whatever), but no precipitation. Also, there is not much wind or no wind at all.
How does the atmosphere clean itself? Without rain, dust and sooty particles (from smithies or hearthfires) will float around, constantly deteriorating the air envelope.
Everything landing outside the asteroids surface will sink down to the level of the gravity plane and be eventually driven out of the air envelope. But even when there are enough plants growing to replenish the oxygen, there is still a lot of dirt landing on the streets (where it will
kicked up again by the boots of pedestrians) and on the roofs (where it will accumulate).
So my question is:
Is there some way, be it mundane or magical, to get rid of the "dust-problem"? Or do I overlook something and the problem doesn't come up in the first place?
Tauster
Mystaran Magic has Create Air(3rd level spell) which creates air at a source and that pressure flow pushes outward to wherever it can go.
Conceivably the "new" air washes away dust based on the number of spells used creating some level of pressure. Worst case scenario, you get centuries of dust buildup as the asteroid crumbles around you.
Street sweepers would be my second favourite solution, my favourite one being naturel/magical laws.
I like street sweepers. Don't forget that you also need to have people walking around carrying buckets of water and other people removing buckets of human sewage.
However, something seems wrong about these guys "getting rid of this stuff". I don't like the idea that if they go on strike the universe grinds to a halt after a few days. The Spelljammer Campaign Setting is supposed to have existed for millenia, so we can not assume that its systems are that vunerable to falling apart. There must always be some other processes that keep disaster from happening. (We just need to figure out what these are.)
Firstly, I don't think that their should be strikes in a medieval style society. I can't imagine people being allowed to strike in most medieval societies. I can imagine the watch going around and threatening to throw the sweepers into jail or overboard if they don't go back to work. If you tell me that a sweeper strike is the result of action by a corrupt guild who are trying to create chaos to help them make a power bid I'd find it easier to accept that. However, I can't see ordinary people doing "power to the people" actions. Mind you not everywhere is like Bral. I suppose we could create a totally unionised style government for an asteroid.
Secondly, I don't like the idea of "getting rid of stuff" in a fantasy setting. In modern life we fill up land fills with unwanted packaging, but back in medieval times people reused or recycled everything they could. They didn't recycle because they were more enviromentally friendly - they did it because that rubbish had cash value. The dust you are talking about must be useful to someone. I like the idea of creating soil. If dust comes from hair and dandruff it would probably be organic. I'm sure that none of us could be bothered to create our own soil, but with cheap labour out there we should have some poor serf doing it.
The same goes for the other sorts of waste material. Sewerage could be used as fertiliser, dirty water could be used to irrigate certain plants that don't need fresh water.
If an asteroid threw all of its dust overboard it would eventually end up as a pebble. I'd like to see someone making use of the dirt and filth that nobody else wants. How about using it as building material for something similar to wattle and daub walls?
What about using Gully Dwarves (or a similar race). An asteroid could have caves inside it where expensive mushrooms are grown in soil made from a mixture of dust and toilet waste. Or if that is too much of a leap then you could grow another crop that cleans up the muck and turns it into earth and then grow mushrooms in that. Reed beds could filter out dirty water and make it clean.
A SJ asteroid should be able to recycle 100 percent of its waste material and should only have to import special items and raw materials.
Given that winds can blow so soil overboard, you could possibly have a soil making guild that uses these sort of methods to create soil that can replace any lost soil. Excess soil could be used to grow plants on ships (all ships should have plants) or exported to nearby barren asteroids that are being cultivated.
The same goes for the other sorts of waste material. Sewerage could be used as fertiliser, dirty water could be used to irrigate certain plants that don't need fresh water.
Actually, I believe any plant can survive on "dirty" water, so long as it doesn't actually contain poisonous chemicals. I mean, think about where plants get their water from normally -- out of the ground. The roots absorb the water, along with whatever minerals are dissolved in it, and any other impurities just get left behind.'Scuse the tangent. I'm a biology teacher.
Wyvern
'Scuse the tangent. I'm a biology teacher.
Wyvern
So what you are saying is that Dwarves have big Shrieker Farms fed on the poo of Dwarves? No wonder they are dwarves...
...but... (you know, there's always a "but" :D )
Dragon Rock is a very dirty city. In ThatotherGuy's original writeup, there is (apart from the government hill and the elven enclave) next to nothing green in the city, almost no trees or major green areas. As far as I understood (I had a few problems understanding what he meant, I confess), he envisioned that Dragon Rock was similar to London during the Industrial age: dark, sooty and overcrowded. Both sides of the whole surface (10 miles long x 1,5 miles on average broad) are used for buildings - which makes for the largest city in the sphere, even bigger than calimport, afaik! With a typical urban population density, the city would house several million inhabitants.
My own version of DR will differ in a few aspects.
Firstly, even though I try to keep the dark&sooty mood, I'll insert a few more green areas. I think that's only realistic, since otherwise, some magical means of air replenishment must exist (and I don't want to use magic everywhere).
Secondly, I'll cut the population figures a bit down, making the city maybe "only" twice the size of Waterdeep.
Having said this, here is where the "...but..." comes into play:
There is much smithing industry on DR, a whole city district ("The Fields of War") to be exact. The sooty wastes of their chimneys would in no way be useful to anyone else (apart from some alchemists perhaps). If you collect this stuff and try to grow plants on it, you will likely end up with dead seeds.
And since the soot will mix within the asteroids atmosphere, without green areas like parks, I imagine the air would go deadly in only a few weeks. I don't want to implement magic or mundane soot filters for the chimneys, that's too much modern for my taste.
Non-airborne wastes like sewage (and dwarven poo :D ) is something else entirely. It can be collected and used as fertilizer. ThatotherGuy mentioned that there are gnomish ships in that business; they are collecting the stuff and transport it to nearby farming asteroids. ...I only hope they don't transport the produce on the return trip in the same cargo holds!
Dragon Rock is a very dirty city. In ThatotherGuy's original writeup, there is (apart from the government hill and the elven enclave) next to nothing green in the city, almost no trees or major green areas.
Even if you didn't have large open park areas it wouldn't stop people from having window boxes. Window boxes do not have to be some sort of alturistic gesture by the owners of the buildings. Herbs used for cooking and healing are something that could be grown in small places.
Not all streets in cities are narrow and trees could be planted in the wider streets.
Styles of houses vary, but in countries where rain is rare they often have flat rooves. This roof space could be used as a garden by the people living in the building. They could grow small amounts of fruit and vegatables for their own consumption.
As far as I understood (I had a few problems understanding what he meant, I confess), he envisioned that Dragon Rock was similar to London during the Industrial age: dark, sooty and overcrowded.
I remember the SJML conversation now. I got confused too (firstly because there are two Dragon Rocks in Realmspace - secondly because his Dragon Rock wasn't based on the original information from Realmspace suppliment).
Be careful not to believe what any film fiction tells you about London. It wasn't quite as dark and dirty as the films make out. For example films about Jack the Ripper often ommit the fact that the first lines of the London Underground had already opened and underground steam trains were running very close to the area where the murders took place. Films, especially older Holywood films, take a lot of liberties with the truth, because they don't think their audiences know any better.
The London of reality had nice areas as well as industrial ones. The air currents of London generally blow from west to east and its river, The Thames, also flows from west to east. This means that the polution, sewage and smell travels east. The industrial areas and poor areas were in the East End of London and the nicer areas where rich people lived were in the West End of London. The South Bank of the Thames used to be outside London (and its law) and was filled with theatres (including The Globe Theater) and prostitution.
If you want to build a city that seems as real as London then you need to have a variety of districts with different cultures. Sadly a lot of the TSR products made very two dimensional cities and even planets with global cultures.
Both sides of the whole surface (10 miles long x 1,5 miles on average broad) are used for buildings - which makes for the largest city in the sphere, even bigger than calimport, afaik! With a typical urban population density, the city would house several million inhabitants.
Hmm. Is that what he said? Or is that your interpretation of what he said? I think I remember Thatotherguy complaining that we hadn't read his work properly.
Have you got a link to a copy of his write up? Is it on Beyond the Moons? (If you want to talk about existing work you should really provide links and references so that everyone can join in without having to do a big search to see what you are talking about.)
My own version of DR will differ in a few aspects.
Firstly, even though I try to keep the dark&sooty mood, I'll insert a few more green areas. I think that's only realistic, since otherwise, some magical means of air replenishment must exist (and I don't want to use magic everywhere).
Alternatively you could only allow air gensai to live there! ;)
Secondly, I'll cut the population figures a bit down, making the city maybe "only" twice the size of Waterdeep.
If you don't like his version, then why not go back to the original verion from Realmspace and work from there? You could look at the ideas of his that you like, but build something that fits in with the original description as well.
Having said this, here is where the "...but..." comes into play:
There is much smithing industry on DR, a whole city district ("The Fields of War") to be exact. The sooty wastes of their chimneys would in no way be useful to anyone else (apart from some alchemists perhaps). If you collect this stuff and try to grow plants on it, you will likely end up with dead seeds.
Hmm. I'm not sure that sooty wastes are bad for all plants. Certain plants like poppies seem to thrive on ground that has been bombed and I've heard that soil around volcanos is fairly fertile.
There are green areas along the railway lines of London and England and plants along them seemed to thrive during the age when steam trains were running. (In fact many London Underground stations actually have gardens in them. They run an annual competition to give a prize to the station with the best plants.)
And since the soot will mix within the asteroids atmosphere, without green areas like parks, I imagine the air would go deadly in only a few weeks. I don't want to implement magic or mundane soot filters for the chimneys, that's too much modern for my taste.
Forgetting Thatotherguy's write up for a second. I've seen quite a few conversations here and on the SJML that start off "everyone would die if...".
However, if everyone was going to die, they would already be dead. We need to start from the assumption that every culture in SJ is self sufficient and can survive without magical means.
There *must* be natural processes cleaning the air on all inhabited asteroids. If there wasn't then the society wouldn't exist to cause the polution. They would already have died out.
Plus Spelljammer shouldn't be "too modern" because it isn't set in the Victorian era it is set in a much earlier era. You shouldn't have a Dragon Rock full of steam powered work houses. A lot of your so called "industrial" activity should be things like people sewing sails by hand or cutting up imported wood and building ships. And it shouldn't be industrial - it should be small businesses and home workers.
Most of the activities of a medieval style city don't need furnaces. You should have some areas with blacksmiths, weaponsmiths or armoursmiths, but things can be recycled or reused. We tend to throw things away now, but in the past even nails got reused. Take stuff like that into account and you can reduce the amount of polition that your "industrial" activity is creating.
Non-airborne wastes like sewage (and dwarven poo :D ) is something else entirely. It can be collected and used as fertilizer. ThatotherGuy mentioned that there are gnomish ships in that business; they are collecting the stuff and transport it to nearby farming asteroids. ...I only hope they don't transport the produce on the return trip in the same cargo holds!
It might seem nasty to you, but wouldn't seem nasty to people who live in that cuture. I live in London and back when horses were common people used to come out with a bucket and collect horse poo to use on their garden.
So what you are saying is that Dwarves have big Shrieker Farms fed on the poo of Dwarves? No wonder they are dwarves...
Actually, that's about right. Fungi are not plants; they don't photosynthesize, so they need to get their nutrients from somewhere else. Most of them get it from decaying organic matter (IOW, they're decomposers). Fantasy cave ecosystems which substitute mushrooms for plants drive me up the wall. Without a continual input of energy, either from the sun or somewhere else, a food chain will collapse. (So dwarves couldn't survive entirely on shriekers grown on their own excrement; it would be a closed cycle and the energy would eventually be depleted. Either the dwarves or the shriekers would need additional nourishment from some other source.)
Wyvern