I need help deciding which PrCs to include in the manual... There are a few obvious choices... and a few Vern and I have come up with. What I would like to know is if there is a desire/need for additional PrCs, and which of the ones we've already come up with you don't think is needed.
Currently we have decided to include the Blackguard (renamed and slightly modified as Avenger), Assassin and Archmage--simply because they fit so well. While the DM is certainly able to say "all DMG PrCs are allowed" I would like to imply that these three, in particular, are more appropriate to the setting than the others.
Also the Merchant and Merchant-Prince as well as Forester (using Duskblade for inspiration) and the Glantrian secret crafts are obvious choices.
Also, we have come up with a few more, including Gladiator (using Pit Fighter as a source), Aerial Knight (for RAF and KoA), Hin Master, and Knight Hero (being double-duty for Hin Protectors and neutral travelling Fighters, as well as being suitable for the Order of Gryphon, Knights of Vanya, Storm Soldiers, etc).
Am I missing anything or over-doing it?
Thanks ahead of time,
Roger
Also I'd add something:
Ylaruam Dervish
Northern Reaches Wise Woman
Ethengarian Shaman, Hakomoon, Bratak, Horse Warrior
Shadowelf Shaman
Atruaghin Shamani
(that's from canon)
Also, I would add:
Filtot Goblin Aide
Morlay Obsidian Guard
Elf Treekeeper
Hin Pirate
Dwarf Elfhunter
Changeling (for fairy rised humans)
Spidermage (from web of intrigue in Herath)
Gnome Pilot
Northern Reaches Wise Woman --> Will look into
Ethengarian Shaman, Hakomoon, Bratak, Horse Warrior --> Shaman, see below; The other three are little more than local names for Sorcerer, Rogue, and Fighter.
Shadowelf Shaman --> The "regular" Shadowelf Shaman will just be a SE cleric of Rafiel, we do have a "Radiant Shaman" PrC planned for the upper tier of Rafiel's followers--I forgot to place them on the list.
Atruaghin Shamani --> Both this and the Ethengar Shaman have been combined into a single new Base-class
Also, I would add:
Filtot Goblin Aide
Morlay Obsidian Guard
Elf Treekeeper
Hin Pirate
Dwarf Elfhunter
Changeling (for fairy rised humans)
Spidermage (from web of intrigue in Herath)
Gnome Pilot
For most of those, will not be included in the "main" book, which is focused on KW... PC series, Gaz10 and SC stuff will be in later suppliments. As far as the Pirate, Relic-keepers, and elf-hunter, they're worth considering... as well as the Pilot. But for now, we'll wait and see.
Roger
Hin Master
Elven Tree Keeper
Dwarven Forge Keeper
Cheers,
Havard
Ethengarian Shaman, Hakomoon, Bratak, Horse Warrior --> Shaman, see below; The other three are little more than local names for Sorcerer, Rogue, and Fighter.
I agree with all your post. But I disagree with the quoted sentence.
Well, Shaman is OK, you said.
Hakomoon is not like a Magic User. He does not use books and scrolls, but uses sigils and ritualistic symbolic items, like hare foot, coloured stone etc.
I think that this is a completely different magic system and that an Hakomoon should be a separate class. In my Mystara, an Hakomoon could not teach a spell to a Wizard and a Wizard could not teach a spell to an Hakomoon.
Brataks and Horse Warriors get some special ability, acting for Bratak and horse archery for Horse Warrior. In my campaign (2ed based) that qualifies as a separate character kit.
Hmmm...I guess that is pretty much what Roger said.
Arcanda, keep in mind that PrCs are quite different from 2e Kits. For 2e, I agree that these "classes" should be Kits.
I think there is merit for building PrCs for them for 3E, but as starting characters they will simply be Core classes with a specific set of Feats/Skills.
Havard
Hakomoon is not like a Magic User. He does not use books and scrolls, but uses sigils and ritualistic symbolic items, like hare foot, coloured stone etc.
I think that this is a completely different magic system and that an Hakomoon should be a separate class. In my Mystara, an Hakomoon could not teach a spell to a Wizard and a Wizard could not teach a spell to an Hakomoon.
Note that the powers of the OD&D Hakomon fall in between the AD&D Wu Jen and Wokan, but IMO closer to the former. Therefore, I'd probably use the Wu Jen in 3e as well (and, OTOH, I'd use the Hakomon for the Ochalean and Myoshiman Wu Jen in OD&D).
Brataks and Horse Warriors get some special ability, acting for Bratak and horse archery for Horse Warrior. In my campaign (2ed based) that qualifies as a separate character kit.
Indeed. OD&D developed the concept of Kit (under the name of Specialization) only with the HW line, otherwise the Bratak and Horse Warriors would fit neatly.
New base Classes: Dervish, Rake, and Shamani.
DMG PrC's noted as especially apropriate:
MDG Prestige Classes: Certain prestige classes from the DMG are exceptionally appropriate for a Mystaran campaign: The Arcane Archer, Archmage, Assassin, Duelist, and Dwarven Defender are all suitable for the Known World without modification. The Blackguard is also appropriate, but requires slight modification. In the Known World, there are some adventurers who have chosen to be the antithesis of the Paladin. This modified Blackguard is called the Avenger. Avengers act exactly like a Blackguard as described in the DMG except that their alignment may be either Chaotic or Evil, and they must associate themselves with a particular church or clerical order. As with any divine caster, the Avenger must select an Immortal Patron or Philosophy that is within one step of his alignment.
New PrCs:
Aerial Knight (RAF/KoA)
Dogfighter (Serianne pilot)
Forester
Gladiator
Guild Merchant
Hin Master
Knight-Hero (includes non-Sherrif,non-Master Hin, neutral travelling Ftr, & knightly orders)
Mariner (Pirates, Ierendi naval officers, Minrothad privateers that aren't MP)
Merchant Prince
Radiance Mage (I haven't decided if this is 1 class with specialized options or 7 different classes)
Radiant Shaman (upper heirarchy of Shadowelven clerics of Rafiel)
Relic Keeper (1 class which can be specialized based on race/clan)
I do need some help on some of these, however. In particular I have no clue how to do the Relic Keeper and the Radiance Mages.
I know Ohad Shaham, Andrew, Havard, Byron's Ghost, Aleksei Andrievski, and Francis Lariviere have all done some work on them. I was hoping y'all could get together and come up with something for me.
Thanks ahead of time. And when I get these PrCs done, then Ch 1 will be complete--I will send it to Shawn so y'all can tear it apart and provide editing/feedback before I compile the rest of the book.
Roger
Okay, this is how I've decided to split things up:
New base Classes: Dervish, Rake, and Shamani.
DMG PrC's noted as especially apropriate:
New PrCs:
Aerial Knight (RAF/KoA)
Dogfighter (Serianne pilot)
Forester
Gladiator
Guild Merchant
Hin Master
Knight-Hero (includes non-Sherrif,non-Master Hin, neutral travelling Ftr, & knightly orders)
Mariner (Pirates, Ierendi naval officers, Minrothad privateers that aren't MP)
Merchant Prince
Radiance Mage (I haven't decided if this is 1 class with specialized options or 7 different classes)
Radiant Shaman (upper heirarchy of Shadowelven clerics of Rafiel)
Relic Keeper (1 class which can be specialized based on race/clan)
I do need some help on some of these, however. In particular I have no clue how to do the Relic Keeper and the Radiance Mages.
I know Ohad Shaham, Andrew, Havard, Byron's Ghost, Aleksei Andrievski, and Francis Lariviere have all done some work on them. I was hoping y'all could get together and come up with something for me.
Thanks ahead of time. And when I get these PrCs done, then Ch 1 will be complete--I will send it to Shawn so y'all can tear it apart and provide editing/feedback before I compile the rest of the book.
Roger
Radiance Mages are like a Wizard who simply has access to a certain field like Death, War, Law, Evil, Nature...If anything the Radiance Magic is little more than a field restricted to Glantrian Wizards...Like the other fields such as Alchemy, Witchcraft, Elemental Magic, Necromancy, stuff like that.
Or Just list the new spells as Metamagic Feats for Epic Level Glantrian Wizards so that they must be picked up one after the next to be a Radiant Mage beginning at a certain level...
This Feat idea also works well for Radiant Shamans (Shadowelf Clerics).
Assassins in Mystara are the THUG...and if you examine the Master DM Handbook (The Black Book) you get something that is Fighter and Thief-with skills orienting on the side of intimidation, torture, killing techniques (having picked up the assorted feats on a weapon)...stuff like that.
Mystaran Elves are Wizard and Fighter Simultaneously...just give them both classes with the combined XP table, Dont worry about individual class advancement because they Mystaran Elves (a class in itself).
HollowWorld Elves have the fighter alone option...picking up the wizard class later if they like.
What are you talking about? The concept for my conversion is to recreate the setting without modifying the existing rules if at all possible. With that in mind, instead of having a seperate class for each and every OD&D option, I'm designing it so that the player can develop their character utilizing the customization built-in to the 3.5 rules set. A "thug" could be either a Fighter/Assassin or a Rogue/Assassin, or even a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin, as they choose--all three are apropriate.
As far as the elven race/classes go, I've already taken that into account and have decided to allow the player to choose non-standard class combinations if they want, but provide regionally-based feats as an option to pursuade the devopment of the "standard" Ftr/Wiz combination.
The Randiance Mage is a concept for the 7 Secret Crafts of the Great School of Magic in Glantri City, specifically: Alchemist, Dracologist, Cryptomancy, Elementalist, Necromancy, Illusions, and Witchcraft--which are significantly different enough to warrant their own class instead of just a feat.
Roger
Sean,
What are you talking about? The concept for my conversion is to recreate the setting without modifying the existing rules if at all possible. With that in mind, instead of having a seperate class for each and every OD&D option, I'm designing it so that the player can develop their character utilizing the customization built-in to the 3.5 rules set. A "thug" could be either a Fighter/Assassin or a Rogue/Assassin, or even a Fighter/Rogue/Assassin, as they choose--all three are apropriate.
As far as the elven race/classes go, I've already taken that into account and have decided to allow the player to choose non-standard class combinations if they want, but provide regionally-based feats as an option to pursuade the devopment of the "standard" Ftr/Wiz combination.
The Randiance Mage is a concept for the 7 Secret Crafts of the Great School of Magic in Glantri City, specifically: Alchemist, Dracologist, Cryptomancy, Elementalist, Necromancy, Illusions, and Witchcraft--which are significantly different enough to warrant their own class instead of just a feat.
Roger
I'm quite aware of what a radiance mage is Roger, the point is that if you drop these in as spells for a particular path, then anyone can get them unless you specify that they must use spell wizardry (permanently in memory) rather than on the page of a spell book...As unique feats for epic level means that the wizard is on a particular path to power (one exclusive to Glantri).
Assassins are not in the original Mystaran D&D si it seemed better to go with the THUG (Fighter-Thief Combo) in keeping with the origins of the gamesetting.
I do need some help on some of these, however. In particular I have no clue how to do the Relic Keeper and the Radiance Mages.
I know Ohad Shaham, Andrew, Havard, Byron's Ghost, Aleksei Andrievski, and Francis Lariviere have all done some work on them. I was hoping y'all could get together and come up with something for me.
Roger, are you mixing up the Radiance Mage and the Secret Crafts mages?
Anyway, the stuff I did wasn't very good. I think staying close to the original material is probably the best idea here. I tend to wish to change things too dramatically some times.
Also, basing my PrC on the Archmage was a mistake.
I'm looking forward to seeing the final result of this project though
Havard
The meta-class is a class constructed from a multi-class set functioning on an experience progression table that skips every to every second (or third) level for its experience progression. Thus a meta with two basic classes requires progression on a table made from every second experience increment.
Mystaran Meta-classes
Mystaran Elf (Fighter-Wizard)
Forester The Elves of Alphatia, Wendar, Alfhiem, Karameikos are a forest wilderness Oriented Meta-class. Their preferred weapons are longbow and longsword
Swashbuckler The elves of the Savage Coast/Belcadiz prefer crossbow and rapier and are a more desert oriented elf. (The Belcadiz Elves)
Savage Coast Crusader (Fighter-Cleric) These savage coast elves have abandoned the wizard path and take the cleric in its place.
Headsman (Fighter-Thief) Skills: Craft (poison), Disguise, Languages, Profession (Day-job); Feats: Martial Weapons, Exotic Weapons, Killing Arts Usually multiple weapon focus.
Executioner (Alignment: Neutral)-Employed by the Dominion Monarch to execute criminals who receive the death penalty for any of various crimes.
Thug (Alignment: Any Evil)-Member of a secret criminal organization known as the Pragmati. The Thug is a killer for hire yet has no problems with blackmailing past clients, kidnappings, and soforth.
Forester (Fighter-Wizard) A human meta-class made available by some elf communities. Skills: Wilderness & Nature; Feats: Weapons (Long Bow, Long sword), Archery focus
Shadow-Elf Shaman (Fighter-Wizard-Cleric) The Shaman is one of the few meta-classes that are a three-class multi-classing (Porpheryl, The Radiant Shaman is 21st level (Fighter L21, Wizard L21, Cleric of Rafiel L21))
Dwarven Cleric (Fighter-Cleric) This Dwarf worships Kaygar
Humanoid Raider (Fighter-Thief) This is common in the Humanoid states. Skills and feats are bandit orientated
Other Meta-classes
Necromancer (Wizard-Cleric) While Necromancy is a wizard secret craft available to Glantrian mages; and the Death cleric, and the Necromancer wizard are available in the Isle of Dread as a Zombie-master, the true Necromancer (one skilled in wizard necromancy and clerical death magic) is yet to make an appearance (although this may change with the formation of an Undead Nation in the far north of the known world).
The Shadow-elf Shaman Meta-class
Denail Eelfianil
6th level Shadow-elf Shaman
STR 11, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 9, HP 103, AC13, FORT +13, REF +9, WILL +15
MELEE +13/+8/+3, RANGED +16/+11/+6, INIT +3, SPEED 30, WEIGHT 115lb, HEIGHT 4’10”,
AGE 143, LOWLIGHT VISION, IMMUNE-SLEEP, +17 ATTACK BONUS, HANDCROSSBOW (1d4)+2
ALIGNMENT: Lawful (Good)
LANGUAGES: ©Shadow-elf, Dwarf, Oenkmarian, Darokinian
SKILLS: Climb (10), Concentration (10), Diplomacy (10), Knowledge-Arcana (10), Knowledge-Religion (10), Listencc (10), Searchcc (10), Spellcraft (19), Spotcc (10)
FEATS: Scribe Scroll, Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Casting, Exotic Weapon (Hand Crossbow), Quickdraw, Leadership, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Hand Crossbow), Brew Potion,
Track, Improved Crit. (Hand Crossbow), Weapon Specialization (Hand Crossbow)
DOMAINS (Cleric of Rafiel)
RADIANCE (SUN VARIANT): Turn Greater Undead 1/day
KNOWLEDGE
CLERIC SPELLS (Most Commonly Prayed For)
1-Endure Elements, Detect Secret Doors
2- Heat Metal, Detect Thoughts
3- Radiation Burn (Searing Light Variant), Clairvoyance
WIZARD SPELLBOOK
1-Charm Person, Comprehend languages, Hold Portal, Identify, Magic Missile, Protection from Evil, Shield, Sleep, Ventriloquism
2-Knock, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Web
3- Fly, Haste, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt
Experience Progression of the Shadow-elf Shaman
Level…………………….Experience Required
1………………………………………………………...0xp
2……………………………………….…......15,000xp
3………………………………………………36,000xp
4…………………………………...…………66,000xp
5………………………………………….…105,000xp
6………………………………………….…153,000xp
NOTE: Putting this sixth level shaman in perspective, the Radiant Shaman (Porpheryil) is of the 21st level. That places her at the far end of Epic level power and soon she will be ready to quest for Immortality.
What Better Achievement of Immortality than to take the City of Stars into Spelljammer Space that the city might sit on the outer surface of the Mystaran crystal sphere.
The Isle of Dread Zombiemaster Meta-class
Nemarluk
10th level Human Zombiemaster
STR 12, DEX 9, CON 12, INT 15, WIS 17, CHA 11, HP 103, AC9, FORT +11, REF +5, WILL +17, MELEE +13/+8/+3, RANGED +11/+6/+1, INIT -1, SPEED 30, WEIGHT 186lb, HEIGHT 5’9”, AGE 27, +14 ATTACK BONUS, Sickle 1d6+1
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral
LANGUAGES: ©Thangioth, Thyatian
SKILLS: Alchemy (13), Concentration (13), Craft/Weaving (12), Knowledge-Arcana (12), Knowledge-Religion (12), Move Silently(8), Spellcraft (23), Performance (12)
FEATS: Scribe Scroll, Alertness, Blind-fight, Combat Casting, Leadership, Weapon Focus (Sickle), Brew Potion,
craft wonderous item, Improved Crit. (Sickle), Weapon Finesse (sickle)
DOMAINS (Cleric of Thanatos)
DEATH: deathtouch 1/day
CLERIC SPELLS (Most Commonly Prayed For)
1-Cause Fear
2- Death Knell
3- Animate Dead
4-Death Warding
5-Slay Living
WIZARD SPELLBOOK
1-Cause Fear, Chill touch, ray of enfeeblement
2-ghoul touch, scare, spectral hand
3- gentle repose, halt undead, vampire touch
4-contaigion, enervation, fear
5-Animate dead, magic jar
Experience Progression of the Isle of Dread Zombiemaster
Level…………………….Experience Required
1………………………………………………………...0xp
2……………………………………….…......6,000xp
3………………………………………………15,000xp
4…………………………………...…………28,000xp
5………………………………………….…45,000xp
6………………………………………….…66,000xp
7......................................................91,000xp
8.......................................................120,000xp
9........................................................153,000xp
10......................................................190,000xp
I'm pretty sure 3E already has full rules for multi-class characters. That metaclass idea looks suspiciously like re-inventing the wheel.
Seems that way to me too. 3e not only has multiclassing ability, but also the duskblade base class which is a fighter/wizard combo, and Unearthed Arcana has Gestalt classes which could give a character both fighter and wizard abilities.
There are also the 3.0 1/2 class rules from the DMG (that didn't get ported over to 3.5), which allowed a 1st level character to begin with partial abilities of two classes, gaining their full use upon taking his second level (effectively becoming 1/1 in two classes- though it does necessitate that the second level be used for the second starting class, effectively blocking off career paths for two levels).
Perhaps they have alternatives, but then there is a reason everyone has their own version of the Wheel.
I dont see the rise of a Zombie Master, or a Shadow Elf Shaman, or even a Mystaran Elf (something that isnt realy a fighter-wizard but a unique class).
When in a creativity vaccuum, you are obliged to create for yourself.
There are also the 3.0 1/2 class rules from the DMG (that didn't get ported over to 3.5), which allowed a 1st level character to begin with partial abilities of two classes, gaining their full use upon taking his second level (effectively becoming 1/1 in two classes- though it does necessitate that the second level be used for the second starting class, effectively blocking off career paths for two levels).
I don't think too many people missed that option...
Havard
Fortunately there is a distinct difference between a multiclass and a metaclass character. One is Wizard x picks up a few levels of thief to get some deal on the skills... the other is an entirely new class amalgum of multiple existing classes. Serpico the Guild Mage (a blend of Thief and Wizard simultaneously), is effectivly advancing in the Class of GuildMage.
Your idea is already largely covered by the Gestalt rules form Unearthed Arcana. These rules are part of the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
I forgot about the Gestalt rules (I always mix them up with the other variant at the back there, the Multiversal warrior one, whatever that's called). The only problem I have with those is that, while they make a good point of noting that such characters are still limited in the number of actions they can take (a concept similar to such "multi-class" PrCs like the Eldritch Warrior), and they provide suggestions on adjusting CR for Gestalt campaigns, they don't seem to provide any suggestions for how to incorporate gestalt characters into a mixed campaign (gestalt and non-gestalt characters).
Very True. I wonder if those items are expanded on more in Unearthed Arcana, leaving the bare bones for the SRD?
We played around with Gestalt characters once and found that instead of giving the best HD and Save, if you averaged between the two, you often got a more balanced PC- instead of a barbarian/wizard getting 1d12 hp per level, they would get the average of 1d4 and 1d12, and instead of gaining +2 to Fortitude and +2 to Will, they got +1 to both (altough you had to keep track of "halves" to do this). It worked for the limited scope we used them under.
Very True. I wonder if those items are expanded on more in Unearthed Arcana, leaving the bare bones for the SRD?
I have access to Unearthed Arcana, but it isn't mine. I'll take a look once I get the chance.
Very True. I wonder if those items are expanded on more in Unearthed Arcana, leaving the bare bones for the SRD?
I'll check when I get home, but I think that's pretty much it in the SRD.
We played around with Gestalt characters once and found that instead of giving the best HD and Save, if you averaged between the two, you often got a more balanced PC- instead of a barbarian/wizard getting 1d12 hp per level, they would get the average of 1d4 and 1d12, and instead of gaining +2 to Fortitude and +2 to Will, they got +1 to both (altough you had to keep track of "halves" to do this). It worked for the limited scope we used them under.
There's a breakdown of the saves in Unearthed Arcana (not sure if it's in the SRD or not) that shows all the little .5's of the saving throw process that get cut out. It's in a nice, convenient table, and it would probably make the process you use somewhat more easy to manage. I'll check the SRD to see if it's there (probably not, it was one of the sidebars); if not, I can post it up here for you.