As for myself, as I am just getting back into some real serious DMing in Mystara, I currently match canon (started a WotI campaign last week, so it should remain canon for at least a year or so).
However, my dad's campaign had quite a few differences...
1-Mentzer's Mystara was assumed to be accurate, except for KW areas, where Gaz were used (We were playing before HW and RS/SC came out).
2-WotI never happened (Again, we were playing before it was published).
3-Norwold--while a land-grab competition between the Empires, it was not a subject territory of Alphatia.
4-Glantri was much more populated, at least a half dozen more principalities in the seemingly barren West and North.
5-Northern Reaches dominions changed borders/rulers almost monthly...
6-Soderfjord was united under Dirk the Defender.
7-In Karameikos/Darokin, there was a medium-sized lake at the headwaters of one of the Riverfork rivers.
8-Highforge was a Dwarven city with an integrated Gnomish cimmunity built-in.
9-The DDC was "known" to be a front for the largest Thieves' Guild in the world.
10-Alfhiem was more urbanized (not humanized, just clanholds looked like tree-cities with a definable infrastructure).
I don't think the SE's were ever used, but I don't think dad ever said they were non-existant either.
Roger
The only thing I've done was to have a little more popolous Karameikos, with much more fiefdoms than in GAZ1.
In regard to WotI, even if I played it in a very different way from canon's one, its events would not have a place in my "ideal" Mystara - I'd rather follow the loose timeline found in the GAZ's adventure ideas than stage some of the most catastrophic and IMO useless events of WotI...
For my next Mystara campaign - soon to be started - I'll take instead a lower-magic approach. Casting spell will not be automatical, but an often difficult, dangerous and long process; learning to cast spells will be the work of years of study, not adventuring, and wizards will be rather few (there will still be Glantri, Alphatia and mages' guilds, don't be scared! :D ).
To do this, probably we'll be going to use a different set of rules than d20 - one modeled after the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay system of the Alternity system.
--Ray.
1. Very close to Canon, including the major events of WotI
2. Humorous and/or anachronistic elements are removed/changed.
3. There are ca. 1300 36th level Wizards total in all of Mystara including the Council of 1000 Wizards and the 250 Wizards of Sclaeras.
5. Most of the Known World nations are interpreted as comparable to AD 1400-1600 RW European countries.
6. Blackmoor Era Technology is more mysterious and less Star Trek.
7. Day of Dread ended after 1013.
8. Alphatia is assumed to be brought back ca AC1020
9. Alfheim is assumed to be restored ca AC 1030
10. Gun powder is known to exist ca AC1005. Flint Lock Weapons will be widely available in the Known World ca AC 1050.
11. Biplanes described in PC3 do not exist in AC1000. Likely they will appear ca AC 1200 if ever.
That's all I can think of right now.
Havard
It does include a lot of non-canon stuff, though, especially Hule and the Kavkaz and the Yezchamenid Empire.
It uses the standard desertic Adri Varna -- Gulluvia does not exist.
Norwold has some more M-Slavic and M-Baltic nations/tribes.
The humorous aspects are still there, including Ierendi
Ah, and there are quite a lot of Lupins in the Known World.
Lupins in the KW are as common as the major races...
Rakastas are more common than canon, but not quite as common as in the SC.
I do downplay the more overt humor aspects, usually leaving in the more subtle puns.
I also downplay the number of master/epic level characters--especially arcane casters... That is not to say my campaigns are low-powered or low-magic, just more like a pyramid of power-levels. The 1,000 wizards, in my mind is an exaggeration, based on third-hand reports... in actuality it was closer to 100.
Although I plan to run WotI normally, including the loss of Alphatia, it will return circa 1020 when either Eriadne or Terari will ascend to Immortality (I haven't decided which is more apropriate).
I also intend to take the Net Almanacs as conon, for my purposes... and am considering whether or not I want to place Bruce's "World in Flames" campaign arc concurrently with the Almanacs, or immediately afterwards.
Also, I'll be running a one-shot game of Mark of Amber this weekend, and place it's results into "my" canon... If the result is "full Immortality", Rad's new sphere will be Principium--albeit at a lower power level, tied to the (hitherto unknown) Positive Energy Plane
I have not decided about Gareth, but he is likely to be the Old One from WotI, posing as an Immortal--also acting as Rad's "sponsor" into to Sphere of Principium, and it's first Heirarch, until the sphere is more properly populated.
Most of this doesn't apply directly to my campaign, but are assumed... it certainly is not player knowledge and has no real relevance to the games I run.
Roger
I'd say the biggest difference is that I tend to play campaigns that lean a bit to the darker/grittier side (not completely, just a bit) but that doesn't exclude the use of some humour. The other is that my games are a little lower magic; in that it is not as common as in cannon but still every bit as potent or even more so. It is also more complex.
The Council of the 1000 Wizards is something IMC that is reserved for Alphatia's top 1000 most accomplished spellcasters, regardless of class*, determined by lengthy processes. This is done by the Conclave for Evaluation of the High Arts, consisting of high-ranking Council members. Therefore the council does not consist of purely 36th level M-Us. This produces two cool elements:
- the 1000 number limit means that if a canidate dislays mastery greater than a current member he can 'bump' that member out. This possiblity drives members to continually improve thier art.
- the evaluation is subjective in many ways so political manueverings within the Council are 'par for the course'. There exists a complex web of influence between individual members and also the numberous sub councils. Then there is also the external political spheres.
* Although the Council is philosophically open to any spellcaster, in practice it is incredibly difficult for someone other than a M-U/wizard/sorcerer to display a great enough level of achievement. There are currently no members of the Council that are non-M-Us.
The Council of the 1000 Wizards is something IMC that is reserved for Alphatia's top 1000 most accomplished spellcasters, regardless of class*, determined by lengthy processes. This is done by the Conclave for Evaluation of the High Arts, consisting of high-ranking Council members. Therefore the council does not consist of purely 36th level M-Us. This produces two cool elements:
- the 1000 number limit means that if a canidate dislays mastery greater than a current member he can 'bump' that member out. This possiblity drives members to continually improve thier art.
- the evaluation is subjective in many ways so political manueverings within the Council are 'par for the course'. There exists a complex web of influence between individual members and also the numberous sub councils. Then there is also the external political spheres.
* Although the Council is philosophically open to any spellcaster, in practice it is incredibly difficult for someone other than a M-U/wizard/sorcerer to display a great enough level of achievement. There are currently no members of the Council that are non-M-Us.
I like this!
I'd say Clerics would stand a decent chance of getting into the council. Paladins, Rangers, OD&D elves etc would probably have no chance.
Oh yeah, I agree with those who said Lupins and Rakasta probably have a stronger presence...
Havard
I like this!
I'd say Clerics would stand a decent chance of getting into the council. Paladins, Rangers, OD&D elves etc would probably have no chance.
That's how I see it too. The only caveat to this is that I don't have the same compulsion in clerics to achieve high levels as I have in the others. It's just a by-product of the church philosophies within Alphatia. But, as always, there will be the exceptions.
Oh yeah, I agree with those who said Lupins and Rakasta probably have a stronger presence...
This is something I've never really used in previous campaigns but am making a conscience effort to create this time.
People does not travel a lot, and it is easy a Karameikos city-dweller (and I don't tell a peasant) did never hear about Emirate of Abbahan, and it is nearly impossible he knows about Herath!
After all, it is dangerous traveling in a world where you could meet an orc on your way!
Mystara Space is completely un-canonical, since I use SpellJammer space, with Crystal Spheres and spelljamming ships. Alphatians are a major spelljamming race.
I also use Planescape multiverse, with some Mytaran flavour (I was very glad to find frost salamanders in Planescape monstrous manual appendix III and planar spiders in an ethereal demiplane!). Immortals planes are known as "realms" in Sigil, but they are exactly the same, only a matter of terms.
People does not travel a lot, and it is easy a Karameikos city-dweller (and I don't tell a peasant) did never hear about Emirate of Abbahan, and it is nearly impossible he knows about Herath!
After all, it is dangerous traveling in a world where you could meet an orc on your way!
This is also assumed in my campaigns, as I do stress that this is a medieval world and life is hard and gritty, even for the well off, not to mention commoners and downtrodden.
Mystara Space is completely un-canonical, since I use SpellJammer space, with Crystal Spheres and spelljamming ships. Alphatians are a major spelljamming race.
I also use Planescape multiverse, with some Mytaran flavour (I was very glad to find frost salamanders in Planescape monstrous manual appendix III and planar spiders in an ethereal demiplane!). Immortals planes are known as "realms" in Sigil, but they are exactly the same, only a matter of terms.
I have yet to need this, so I am not sure what the makeup of the universe & multiverse is... But I think that I'm more inclined to keep things as simple as possible, possibly using the Great Wheel.. with each Mystaran outer-plane being a different layer of the GW planes.
I suppose Spelljammer could fit quite well... the only difference is, unlike most Crystal Spheres, the Mystaraspace CS is airless... In my mind, crystal spheres are something akin to to the Oort cloud from RW astrophysics, deliniating the border of the solar system. (Disclaimer: I have never played Spelljammer, so am quite unfamiliar with it, beyond the bare-bones basics of the setting.)
Come to think of it, my Mystara doesn't seem so canonical, now that I'm actually thinking about each little detail that is different... but still, the major theme is the same.
One last thing... as far as the "unexplored" regions, I assume that the Mentzer map is accurate... I haven't used OldDawg's gaz's yet, but intend to impliment them IMC as part of "my canon"...
Roger
Generally, my campaign followed canon, except for the following:
Many of the sillier elements of the Gaz series were dropped.
Half-elves were permitted as a character race.
Davania was fairly well known, but was considered a dangerous place (only the truly adventurous went there).
The Outer Being cosmology existed (big surprise, I know), as did Lhomarr, etc.
Geoff
I included all the major events of these modules but I changed the consequences:
- Karamiekos went into a period of severe civil unrest due to the proclamation of indipendence from Thyatis. The Karameikos family lost its power and now the land is a collection of independend fiefdoms (something like the early Soderfjord). This situation was mostly caused by PCs actions. Terari and the school of magecraft act as an independent and balancing autorithy among the various nobles.
The halflings moved in to secure its eastern border of the Shires and now they control western Karameikos (the gulf of Halag and the former Black Eagle Barony/Luln area).
- Eastern Ierendi went into a similar situation when a collection of exiled PCs and NPC nobles managed to claim Safari island and the smaller nearby islands in a surprise attack. Now the archipelago is a battleground between the Kingdom of Ierendi (which lost any touristical ambition and become an England-like naval power) and the Karameikan invaders.
- Wastoure the mage managed to seize power in Thyatis (mostly due to PCs treacheries and failures), posing an end to the Torion dinasty and becoming the new Emperor. He is now using the immense Empire's whealt to find a way to free the burrower that is buried under the Thyatis' mainland. Any attempt to overthrow him failed due to Wastoure's innate powers of seeing "disturbance lines and nodes" in society. Thanks to this ability, the mage sourrounded himself with efficient and loyal counselors, and now the Empire is going better than ever.
- Glantri is on the fringe of civil war due to Synn manipulations. The PCs managed to avoid the war to break out still now.
- Darokin was splitted in two after WotI: the massive destrucion of the western regions due to Hulean and humanoids invasion led to the Selenica region to become the richest part of the nation. When Darokin's Council asked for more and more wealth in order to rebuild the western areas, Selenica rouling council had enough and declared its independance. There was no bloodsharing, and the situation will possibly change in the future, but by now this nation in split in two.
On the other side, the shadow elves didn't manage to stop the death of the Canolbarth Forest, so an increasing number of them is moving elsewhere (returning under the surface or founding small communities in the other lands). The abandoned lands are going to be claimed by (western and eastern) Darokin, given the fact that the orginal Alfheim elves are now settled in their new lands.
- The submerged continent of Alphatia is slowly returning to its original place: the Mystaran crust is slowly responding to the sudden stress and now it is pushing up again the island. This process possibly will require decades and the "new" land would be a cracked wastelands dotted with ruins for still a long time, but more and more lands emerge every year.
- Wendar repelled an invasion of humanoid and barbarians from the north and now is going to secure it northern borders by opening the northern lands to colonization; some PCs and NPCs already settled there.
- Some nations founded little trade colonies in the Thanegiot archipelago, in other islands of the Sea of Dread and along the Atruaghin clan coast.
That's about all.
the only difference is, unlike most Crystal Spheres, the Mystaraspace CS is airless...
The vast majority of crystal spheres are airless, actually. The difference is in the way that the physics are said to work in the Spelljammer setting and in Bruce Heard's Dragon article. In Bruce Heard's version, magic is required to generate air during trips into space. In the Spelljammer version, air clings to large objects like spelljamming ships, creating tiny atmospheres. These can be exhausted (becoming unbreathable) if the ship goes too long without replenishing it on a planet, but offer a way for travelers to survive in the void of space without magic.
I had a massive plague of created creatures that multiplied out of control destroy Alphatia instead of sinking. I never liked it gone form my maps. Some Alphatians survived and still hold some of the larger cities, but not entirely. The land is now treacherous. The biggest strength to the new creature, which was actually intended to be unleashed in Glantri during WotI, is that it absorbs elemental magic and heals itself that way. It can only die at by physical harm and since it's mixed with Ghoul, it had a way of freezing up it's victims. Nasty critters. Many Alphatians moved to Skothar and while continueing to conquer the lands were suddenly stopped in their progression by a huge empire of plainsmen and gnolls living and working together. They equaled in power each so the Alphatians made peace and the kingdom of the planes held their borders.
Karameikos became a strong nation, and gained it's independance while Thyatis recovered from Alphatia's pounding them. Karameikos also absorbed part of Darokin and the Black Eagle Barony was sieged by Stefan's army until they reached a deal. The deal was that the Baron would leave Karameikos forever. He did and moved to a rulerless Sind as the Empire of Hule fell into confusion when the Master was killed by PC's and they attempted to take over.
Glantri and the Shadow Elves absorbed what was left of Darokin and most people fled to the newer stronger Karameikos for safety and also where the Darokin Merchant's Guild was moving.
Hord Darkeye form Ostland tried to take over Vestland and Soderfjord and failed miserably sending all those lands into a sort of Jarldoms state. He succeeded in killing the royalty of Vestland before he was killed and everyone fought over what to do next.
Wendar became a huge power and made peace with halforcs from the north and then began to rebuild Alfhiem there. The Broken Lands were taken over by a new Orc king who then began pushing to unite all races and tribes of the lands into a united kingdom type, where all kings would remain, but they would unite under an emporer when necessary. That emporer fluctuated often becasue of constant assassinations. Most emporers lasted an average 2 weeks.
A lizardman in the Malpheggi swamp stumbled upon a cache of Blackmoor artifacts. One of which gave hi knowledge about the technologies and made him more intelligent. I threw that in a deep marsh locked in a box made of iron he had taken from a merchant, so it would sink deep. He then educated the other lizardmen enough to create a sor tof kingdom in the growing Malpheggi swamp, which had been spreading north and east across Darokin.
Thyatis lost control of the Isle of Dawn during WotI and so decided to move thier expansion plans to Davania where they are still successful and are even considering moving their capital there (returning to the motherland is what some Thyatians are calling it. Others claim they are running away.)
After Alphatia and Thyatis sort of lost a grip on the Isle of Dawn, Thothia revealed an army of undead, and conquered the entire Isle. It is now the new world power in the Known World adn some Immortals see the likeness to Nithia within it and are considering doing something about it. But some Immortals obviously are standing against any action against the new power.
Ochelea is now quite happy and free and they are beginning a strong show of merchanting as Minrothad and Ierendi was devastated in a powerful hurricane that left both nations struggling and and the crippled economy caused the rulership to fall and now each island is ruled by itself. Whiel they struggle though, Thyatis and Karameikos both are planning an invasion to "help rebuild" the islands to their former glory.
Hule is in chaos and evil clerics have sprung up everywhere trying to find some control, but most of it is split apart and rulers begin popping up everywhere, some happen to be former clerics of Hule.
Other differences would be rakasta and lupin are semi common. I allow Gnolls from the underground kingdom that was over-run by Hule that was in the Burning Waste. Many Elves and Gnolls that survived the invasion moved on to the lands of Sind and Glantri to find new life.
I've also never had access to any of the Red Coast/Savage Baronies stuff, and so while I think it's pretty cool, I generally don't consider it canon.
Chris Davies.
I've also never had access to any of the Red Coast/Savage Baronies stuff,
It's all on the Vaults of Pandius -- now also in a shiny new typeset version by Italian MMB's regular aia.
Roger
Vastland/Soderfjord/Ostland: drop the Viking culture. There's plenty of room for Vikings in Norwold--why do we need Viking-lite? I was thinking of keeping generally the same political atmosphere, but changing the culture to more of a midieval germanic style--knights rather than vikings.
Khanates: gone. There's just not enough room for them in the area delineated. The wild horsemen are moved to central Brun. Instead, the region they live in is a sort of border land between the groups around it--think Hungary rather than Mongolia.
Atruaghan Clans/Sind: I don't really like either, but I like the clans more. I was thinking of just dropping Sind and using the combined area as a great clansland, but Darokin and Glantri could use an enemy on their western flank. However, the idea of having Sind as an Indian-based culture just seems sort of lame.... thoughts?
I am thinking of running a mystara campaign, but I wanted some feedback on some proposed changes that have been running through my head:
Vastland/Soderfjord/Ostland: drop the Viking culture. There's plenty of room for Vikings in Norwold--why do we need Viking-lite? I was thinking of keeping generally the same political atmosphere, but changing the culture to more of a midieval germanic style--knights rather than vikings.
Khanates: gone. There's just not enough room for them in the area delineated. The wild horsemen are moved to central Brun. Instead, the region they live in is a sort of border land between the groups around it--think Hungary rather than Mongolia.
Atruaghan Clans/Sind: I don't really like either, but I like the clans more. I was thinking of just dropping Sind and using the combined area as a great clansland, but Darokin and Glantri could use an enemy on their western flank. However, the idea of having Sind as an Indian-based culture just seems sort of lame.... thoughts?
How about simply advancing the Northern Reaches to the Medieval stage rather than at the current Viking Age level? Vestland is already approaching this stage in canon. They will have the standard medieval feudal structure, but names and other aspects of society will remain nordic. In RW history, this development was parallelled by the introduction of Christianity, but perhaps on Mystara, the norse Immortals were kept in this region.
For the Khanates, Hungary and perhaps a touch of Bulgaria could keep the Horseman culture, but with a more European framework.
For Sind/Athruagin, how about replacing them with humanoids?
Havard
How about simply advancing the Northern Reaches to the Medieval stage rather than at the current Viking Age level? Vestland is already approaching this stage in canon. They will have the standard medieval feudal structure, but names and other aspects of society will remain nordic. In RW history, this development was parallelled by the introduction of Christianity, but perhaps on Mystara, the norse Immortals were kept in this region.
I was thinking about keeping the nordic flavor, but changing the framework. I think I'll do as you suggest.
For Sind/Athruagin, how about replacing them with humanoids?
because humanoids tend to get forced into the mountains by humans over the long term. they aren't advanced enough to hold their own against humans and demi-humans in other places in Mystara, so why in sind/atruaghin?
as for the khanates, I just don't see a serious horse culture surviving for so long amidst so many sedentary groups. Certainly the people in that region fight on horses, but I see them more as ranchers than nomads. The area itself is under pressure from the more developed regions around them--the orcs, glantrians, heldanns, etc..
- Karameikos is an independent kingdom and very prosperous. Stephan was crowned in 1012. Karameikos is part of Selenican Defence League with Alfheim and Rockhome: they protect the free city of Selenica and the Ust-Urt-Valley.
- Minrothad is ruled by a diminished council. Oran is dead, and the post of the Guildmaster has been abolished. Astra leads the water elf guild, the Guild Verdier has secceeded from the confederacy, and Guild Corser is the most powerful guild.
- Thyatis has conquered Ylaruam (except Ust-Urt) and Soderfjord, but Ragnar is waging a guerilla war in Soderfjord. Thyatis recently tried to attack Freiburg, but their invasion fleet was destroyed during the winter in the Soderfjord dockyards.
- Darokin is led by "Vocator" Alasdair Mauntea and is recovering from the Nomad War of 1011. Some royalist rebels are causing serious trouble in the area of Selenican Road.
- Ethengar is ruled by Great Khan Batu. Western steppes are ruled by Hulagu Khan's hordes.
- Alphatia is launching an invasion of Freiburg (there are no Heldannic Knights in the campaign).
- Alfheim has become more isolated since the Nomad War.
In my Mystara, the area of the khanates is ruled by humanoids. they fight on horse/wolf-back mostly, and support their defence by a large network of huge underground caverns, which effectively make it impossible for surface-only people to control. Entrnaces are by a large number (about a half-dozen in each tribal land) of wide sinkholes which are almost level with the plains, and have a narrow walkway through which to gain entry. Culture is otherwise broadly similar to vanilla Ethengar. the current khan of this area is trying hard to break through anti-humanoid prejudice and establish real trade links with Darokin and Glantri.
That might work...
you could have a sort of 'range war' going on, between the humanoids based near the broken lands and the vastlanders/heldanners moving in from the east...
As for Sind/Atruaghin Clans, I was thinking of making them more conventional fantasy areas (i.e. european rather than the crudely hammered in amerindians and asian-indians) under the rule of a powerful emperor, who is attempting to follow the path of the Dynast to immortality... this would create a powerful state on the borders of Darokin and Glantri but also provide a mighty villain for the PCs to combat. Thoughts?
Regarding Sind, I don't actually see much wrong with it. Both in terms of area and terrain types, it has enough space for the culture placed there, and Mystara's traditional patchwork concept works well enough to have Sind as it is.
I'm far less happy about Atruaghin. It *is* generally low value land, and the border areas of both Darokin and Sind are very poorly controlled by their respective realms. Geographically, it doesn't have the space to support the cultural diversity it has in canon. Politically, the only solid explanation for why it is still independant is immortal intervention by Atruaghin - the rough terrain only goes so far.
I guess we could have the Atruaghin lands nominally claimed (on paper at least) by Sind, but with them paying no serious effort at either ruling it or trying to extract taxes. That would give Darokin a solid reason not to try gunboat diplomacy with Atruaghin (it would displease their Sindi trading partners). And even if we leave Sind exactly as it is, it can still be that powerful empire to the west that has a powerful emperor seeking immortality.
The one issue for me is that Atruaghin still needs to be flattened a bit in terms of its domestic cultural diversity. Shoehorning an entire continent worth of cultures into a space the size of belgium was just silly. I could realistically see two distinct cultural groups (plateau and forest), with individual communities maybe having specialized industries (such as the one that operates the "elevators" that go up the plateau). more than that strains credibility.
They are a barbaric culture on what is considered the edge of the Known World. The area is small and as you say of little value. If nominally claimed by anyone, I'd say it would be by Darokin.
The fact that it hasn't been conquered yet is explained by magic. Specifically shamanic magic. While would be conqurerors also have mages and clerics among their ranks, an attack on Athruagin would mean every Athruagin Cleric and Shamani would line up to defend their land. It is not neccesarily so that every mage or Cleric of Darokin would sign up for an army set on conquering their relatively peaceful neighbour.
As for their cultural diversity, perhaps we are reading too much into that. Perhaps they are just a bunch of tribes with different totem animals and varied choice of weapons and otherwise they are pretty much one culture?
As for Sind, RW Aryans were supposedly a European tribe who found their way to India. Perhaps placing them near Euro-inspired cultures doesn't have to be so wrong?
Havard
The problem with Sind is that it doesn't have any real reason for being there--it doesn't flow out of the desert to the west, and it is radically different from the cultures to the east and north. I think it is just too jarring.
While I am okay with having an enclave with a radically different religious viewpoint--which Sind is--and having different names and such, I just don't see how it helps the game by shoehorning in the whole of India into an area that small. As such, while Sind may be radically different from the rest of the Known World--I'm thinking making it and Atruaghin more alike, a sort of advanced Navajo/Pueblo culture that spills out from the desert, crosses the river valley, and runs into the plains to the west and the mountains to the North--it will fit into the larger system and not be inorganically placed. This would make it unique, and give it a cultural continuity--and also serve as a reminder that the Known World is very, very, old--the people who are currently on top haven't been so forever. This would also somewhat fit with the Makai inhabitants of Ierendi.
What I think I will do is change Sind into a sort of counter-state to Hule--the Master of Hule has an old foe who has liberated Sind, an opponent who has established his own rule over another country, perhaps in an attempt to reach immortality.
Thoughts on Navajo-Sind?
Finally, as regards to post WotI-Alphatia, I am completely disgusted with the idea of changing it into a floating continent in the Hollow World. That's about as mega-lame as things can get.
While I believe it is interesting to destroy the Alphatian Empire--after all, WotI was a pretty major event--actually removing the continent is a bad idea. Instead, I would like to limit the impact to the destruction of Sundsvall, the Council of 1000, and the Empress. As such, the center of Alphatian power is gone, while the subject kingdoms and territories remain, along with whatever Alphatians were out of the capital at the time. As such, the former Empire is in a state of anarchy, but its territories are still strong enough to repel all but the most ferocious Thyatian attack.
Moreover, preferring v. 3.5, Alphatian magic use will be of the sorcerous variety, predominantly. This will serve to differentiate them from the Glantrians and the Mystaran wizards, although sorcerors will also be native to Mystara, albeit in far fewer numbers.
Thoughts on de-centralized (literally) Alphatia?
... I just don't see how it helps the game by shoehorning in the whole of India into an area that small.
I think this is one the mistakes we make sometimes make in regards to Mystara; we don't separate the culture a Mystaran nation is based on from the real world nation of that culture. Sind is not India on Mystara. Sind is Sind, with its own history, development, outlook, peoples, neighbors, interactions, and size. There is no comparison other than foundational culture - everything else is individual.
The Atruaghin Clans is another prime example. Besides similar base cultures to North American Indians, they are very different. The size issue is overdone IMHO. North America had many, many hundreds of individual tribes and each did not have a very large area (with exceptions of course). Mystara has only five tribes. I would imagine that in the past they had a much larger area and population, and possibly many tribes perished or had to merge with other tribes to survive. RW Indians didn't have to deal with the GRoF or orcish hordes. Their development is very different.
Anyway, I just thought that this is something we can lose sight of.
I think this is one the mistakes we make sometimes make in regards to Mystara; we don't separate the culture a Mystaran nation is based on from the real world nation of that culture. Sind is not India on Mystara. Sind is Sind, with its own history, development, outlook, peoples, neighbors, interactions, and size. There is no comparison other than foundational culture - everything else is individual.
The Atruaghin Clans is another prime example. Besides similar base cultures to North American Indians, they are very different. The size issue is overdone IMHO. North America had many, many hundreds of individual tribes and each did not have a very large area (with exceptions of course). Mystara has only five tribes. I would imagine that in the past they had a much larger area and population, and possibly many tribes perished or had to merge with other tribes to survive. RW Indians didn't have to deal with the GRoF or orcish hordes. Their development is very different.
Anyway, I just thought that this is something we can lose sight of.
While I respect your point, and it has actually helped me recognize how we can justify the gameworld, from my personal perspective as a world-builder, the vast gulf between the Sind culture, the Atruaghin culture, and the remainder of the Known World, just a few days ride away, doesn't jive with me. There are some places in the RW where these vast changes do exist, but they are where there are formidable geographic obstacles--towering mountains, dense jungles, etc.. I see some, but not enough of these, dividing the Known World from Sind/Atruaghin Clans. There being no mechanism that I've seen to explain these differences, I find it hard to implement them in my campaign.
My proposed solution--amalgamating Sind and the Atruaghin Clans into a region populated by diverse, autocthonous peoples ethnically separate from people to the east maintains the cultural division between west and east which is so pronounced in Mystara, while also coming to a more satisfactory conclusion (imho) than just plopping an India-analog alongside an amerindian-analog alongside a thoroughly western european-style set of states.
Atruaghin, otoh, does seem to be making an effort to have 5 cultures that span radically differenjt subgroups of native America, as can be seen by the radically different terrain types in that small area.
Funny thing. I never envisoned Sind as India. Given the geography of the region, it most closely resembles the north-western frontier of india, along with Pakistan, but all with a religious backdrop that can be thought of as M-Hinduism. It isn't the whole of India - it lacks the appropriate level of geographical variation.
Atruaghin, otoh, does seem to be making an effort to have 5 cultures that span radically differenjt subgroups of native America, as can be seen by the radically different terrain types in that small area.
That's a very good point. Sind DOES indeed seem to be more like Pakistan than India.
However, it still doesn't really fit well--and neither does Atruaghin. i think that to do justice to either, you have to drop one, and then enlarge the other. since there's plenty of RL examples of Turks pouring over the Khyber, ala Hule/Sind, I think that if you use only Atruaghin, populate the Sind cities with a sort of advanced Pueblo-style people, and then re-arrange other tribes appropriately (i.e., drop the five tribal types and go for ones that would actually fit the climates), you would have a unique area that would allow for some interesting roleplay possibilities--Turks v. Indian Indians has been done--but Turks v. American Indians is something fresh.
Another thought: why are the Heldannic Knights in Davania? Does this seem a bit ludicrous to anyone else? It's not like they are out of room to expand locally... why sail thousands of miles away through enemy waters to do so?
The Tomb of Vanya is found there. So it might be a religious thing....
Havard
Another thought: why are the Heldannic Knights in Davania? Does this seem a bit ludicrous to anyone else? It's not like they are out of room to expand locally... why sail thousands of miles away through enemy waters to do so?
For the same reason thousands of Frenchmen, Englishmen, Italians, Germans etc... travelled thousands of miles to the Holy Land during the Crusades- religion. Finding and securing the tomb of sect's Immortal Patron is likely to be the single most important objective they could have.
For the same reason thousands of Frenchmen, Englishmen, Italians, Germans etc... travelled thousands of miles to the Holy Land during the Crusades- religion. Finding and securing the tomb of sect's Immortal Patron is likely to be the single most important objective they could have.
Ofcourse, the Popes of those days may have been just as interested in the riches that the Middle East offered (trade routes to India and China, not the least). Could Vanya or her top Clergy have some other motivation?
Why is the Tomb of Vanya there in the first place? And what is it?
Havard
Ofcourse, the Popes of those days may have been just as interested in the riches that the Middle East offered (trade routes to India and China, not the least). Could Vanya or her top Clergy have some other motivation?
Why is the Tomb of Vanya there in the first place? And what is it?
Havard
While that certainly is a possiblity, both with the Popes and the people actually crusading, that reflects a very modern point of view. Medieval Christianity is very different from what we have today- the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment and modern science have significantly changed how religion is viewed and influences the daily lives of people. There were certainly were cynics and skeptics in the Middle Ages, but they were the rare exception, not the rule. When the Pope, nobles and populace were told the tomb of Jesus was under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre- they believed it was true through faith. Today, we'd dig it up to prove scientifically what, to them, was proved through faith. Very different mindset.... but now back to the topic at hand....
I would place her tomb there out of the desire for her the be buried in the lands of her people, even if they had been driven out. Perhaps one of her last acts as a mortal was to secure land in Davinia and build her tomb herself. A last symbolic gesture to the forces that drove her people from the land.
As for why the would want to find it, perhaps they believe it is their destiny to reclaim Vanya's ancestral lands- finding the tomb would be a sign that destiny is being fulfilled. Perhaps relics are desired to draw more people to the faith, or strengthen the faith of her existing followers. Maybe her tomb will unlock a greater mystery that has plagued the order. I'd like to think the Order's possessions in the Known World, including their grip on the Freeholds, supplies them with enough coin and goods to afford them the ability to search for the tomb for reasons other than gold and material wealth.
While that certainly is a possiblity, both with the Popes and the people actually crusading, that reflects a very modern point of view. Medieval Christianity is very different from what we have today- the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment and modern science have significantly changed how religion is viewed and influences the daily lives of people. There were certainly were cynics and skeptics in the Middle Ages, but they were the rare exception, not the rule. When the Pope, nobles and populace were told the tomb of Jesus was under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre- they believed it was true through faith. Today, we'd dig it up to prove scientifically what, to them, was proved through faith. Very different mindset.... but now back to the topic at hand....
Oh, I agree. However motivations are often mixed. Both among the nobilty and high ranking clergy greed was often rationalized through things like belief without that meaning that the belief was not true. To shift this into Mystara, it seems likely that this is part of a bigger plot set in motion by Vanya and possibly her high clergy beyond just securing a holy site.
I would place her tomb there out of the desire for her the be buried in the lands of her people, even if they had been driven out. Perhaps one of her last acts as a mortal was to secure land in Davinia and build her tomb herself. A last symbolic gesture to the forces that drove her people from the land.
Quite possible! I'm thinking something along the lines of the Ark of the Covenant here. While probably originally buried on Davania, could her body have been moved after her death? (By the Simbasta?)
As for why the would want to find it, perhaps they believe it is their destiny to reclaim Vanya's ancestral lands- finding the tomb would be a sign that destiny is being fulfilled. Perhaps relics are desired to draw more people to the faith, or strengthen the faith of her existing followers. Maybe her tomb will unlock a greater mystery that has plagued the order. I'd like to think the Order's possessions in the Known World, including their grip on the Freeholds, supplies them with enough coin and goods to afford them the ability to search for the tomb for reasons other than gold and material wealth.
I'm definately up for the presence of relics there. Perhaps the tomb itself is a relic? This sounds to me like a possible parallell to the Treasure of the Templars. The one in possession of the Tomb would gain powers to defeat their enemies etc?
Havard
Oh, I agree. However motivations are often mixed. Both among the nobilty and high ranking clergy greed was often rationalized through things like belief without that meaning that the belief was not true. To shift this into Mystara, it seems likely that this is part of a bigger plot set in motion by Vanya and possibly her high clergy beyond just securing a holy site.
I like the idea of Vanya being behind it in some manner. Perhaps her worshippers haven't moved fast enough on their own.
Quite possible! I'm thinking something along the lines of the Ark of the Covenant here. While probably originally buried on Davania, could her body have been moved after her death? (By the Simbasta?)
Absolutely. Maybe the Simabsta have prophecy of their own- if she-warrior's remains are found by her children, the Simbasta will fall to their swords. Gives them a great reason to hide it, and maybe frequently move it. Control the body, control the region.
I'm definately up for the presence of relics there. Perhaps the tomb itself is a relic? This sounds to me like a possible parallell to the Treasure of the Templars. The one in possession of the Tomb would gain powers to defeat their enemies etc?
Havard
I could see this if no-one really understood the tomb itself was the relic. On the Templar Treasure parallel, perhaps the relics are ancient texts (maybe inscribed on the walls iteself) and items that would have a profound effect on the worship of Vanya? Either justify the Order's beliefs as most true to her, or prove they have fallen from her path. In either case, the Knights would not want those relics to ever be seen outside the Order.
I just realized we are veering towards a Da Vinci Code scenario, I don't know if thats good or bad.
I belief the tomb of Vanya marks the final location of Vanya's mortal form. It is left unclear whether there are actual physical remains there, or if it simply marks the locatiojn she achieved immortality.
There are some sort of physical remains there- Haldemar holds them hostage in the Astral Plane to use as a bargaining chip against the HKs in the episode of VotPA when Vanya's Rest is first encountered.
This would of course mean that the Knights would have to beat off native incursions, deal with local monsters etc. Just what they need to build an experienced fighting force. Just what they will need when the guardians of Vanya's Rest decide that the hierarchy in Freiburg has been infiltrated by whichever evil and decide to reclaim it for the "Pure" (or even Thyatis itself). Well that's the way I might DM it.
I see it as not so much a full colonization, but as a few fanatical Clerics and Knights, who will give their lives for the mission. Similar to the Crusades, most people went over to Palestine and came back, but a few stayed and built fortresses, castles etc. These were the fanatics. If they can generate money through the pilgrimage aspect (I seem to remember reading something about the Heldannic Knights and an international banking system somewhere) then a full scale colony could emerge in time.
This would of course mean that the Knights would have to beat off native incursions, deal with local monsters etc. Just what they need to build an experienced fighting force. Just what they will need when the guardians of Vanya's Rest decide that the hierarchy in Freiburg has been infiltrated by whichever evil and decide to reclaim it for the "Pure" (or even Thyatis itself). Well that's the way I might DM it.
I think this is more accurate--a religious armed camp. Very out there, very boondocks, packed with armed fanatics. A few hundred at most--cheap to maintain. I just can't mesh the full-on colonization with the relatively limited resources that the Knights would be likely to have, having just recently seized the Heldannic Freeholds.
Are there any people with 'variant' Wrath of the Immortals outcomes?
I never continued the timeline beyond AC 1015, or finished the map (I might someday), but the likely outcome would have been 2-3 fairly strong states occupying the Alphatian mainland, and an independent Thothia as a regiona power.
The timelines can be found here: http://pandius.com/alph.html - scroll down to "History"
Geoff
If you check out the Vaults, you'll find an alternate timeline covering the Alphatian continent (which never sank in this verions) from AC 1009 - 1015. Instead, the Doomsday Machine functioned as planned, and Sundsvall was obliterated (wiping out most of the Grand Council in the process). Alphatian individualism and factionalism, never far from the surface, erupts with a vengeance as a result.
I never continued the timeline beyond AC 1015, or finished the map (I might someday), but the likely outcome would have been 2-3 fairly strong states occupying the Alphatian mainland, and an independent Thothia as a regiona power.
The timelines can be found here: http://pandius.com/alph.html - scroll down to "History"
Geoff
awesome. thanks.
Roger
Personally, i think that the concept and execution of WotI was flawed. Some of the outcomes are pretty interesting though--I like the fall of Alfheim, the extension of the Broken Lands, the outright independence of Karamekios (although not the renaming of Specularum... who's idea was that?). I really hate the result for Alphatia... honestly! wtf? so, i'd like to sink central alphatia, have civil war throughout the empire, but maintain 90% of the main landmass.
It really depends on what happens later on. IMC Alphatia will be brought back as a part of Terari's quest for Immortality.
Alfheim will probably also be restored at some point, though that will take longer.
I guess the Specularum name change might have had something to do with jokes about Speculum...
It really depends on what happens later on. IMC Alphatia will be brought back as a part of Terari's quest for Immortality.
See, but that's part of the problem. If you run it like that, then there's basically a "re-boot" and things start over again. Sinking Sundsvall destroys the Empire's center, and probably the empire itself. This is a far more permanent effect of what was supposed to be a world-altering event.
Alfheim will probably also be restored at some point, though that will take longer.
I've considered this, but I think the way I want to play it out is that the magic used to destroy Alfheim is not permanent--it's effects will slowly fade, and the region will return to a more natural state. As such, the Shadow Elves are going to have to leave as well--they won't have any natural barriers against land-hungry Darokinians. This too, is more permanent--Alfheim is gone forever, and Aengmor will join it in the dustbin of history in a few decades.
I guess the Specularum name change might have had something to do with jokes about Speculum...
never thought about it that way
The Council of 1000 in Alphatia... how literally do we want to take this?
Perhaps at some point in the distant past, 1,000 Alphatian magic users of vast power actually formed a conclave, but would this likely be the case in the gazeteer era? I think it might make more sense for the council to be highly degraded--some of the members are indeed highly powerful spell casters, but more are appointees by the emperor/empress, lackies, sycophants, and members who 'earned' their position by being born into it, not by merit. Thus, we would have a "faction" of uber-powerful magic users (most of whom are backbenchers or absentees), a second faction appointed by the empress, and a third faction composed of those who have 'earned' their place--the great generals, adventurers, or self-made men.
Thoughts?
Another thought.
The Council of 1000 in Alphatia... how literally do we want to take this?
Perhaps at some point in the distant past, 1,000 Alphatian magic users of vast power actually formed a conclave, but would this likely be the case in the gazeteer era? I think it might make more sense for the council to be highly degraded--some of the members are indeed highly powerful spell casters, but more are appointees by the emperor/empress, lackies, sycophants, and members who 'earned' their position by being born into it, not by merit. Thus, we would have a "faction" of uber-powerful magic users (most of whom are backbenchers or absentees), a second faction appointed by the empress, and a third faction composed of those who have 'earned' their place--the great generals, adventurers, or self-made men.
Thoughts?
While I agree that there are likely to be numerous cliques and factions within the Council, DotE states that to be an aristocrat, you have to be a spellcaster. Then on top of that, a Councilor would also have to be 36th level (though I think Master Level should be sufficent). I just don't see too many lackies, sycophants, heiresses/heirs meeting those requirements and bringing down the Council to degraded status. Of course you could rule that DotE is stating the ideal vision of the government, and reality is different- but that would definitely be a big change to canon.
While I agree that there are likely to be numerous cliques and factions within the Council, DotE states that to be an aristocrat, you have to be a spellcaster. Then on top of that, a Councilor would also have to be 36th level (though I think Master Level should be sufficent). I just don't see too many lackies, sycophants, heiresses/heirs meeting those requirements and bringing down the Council to degraded status. Of course you could rule that DotE is stating the ideal vision of the government, and reality is different- but that would definitely be a big change to canon.
While it might be a major change to canon, it would probably make things a lot more interesting--after all, the Romans only become fascinating after the Emperors start making their horses Senators.
Moreover, and this is a pretty interesting thought, it would reflect an on-going corruption within the Alphatian Central government, one that set in long ago. Sundsvall as Babylon if you will. It's destruction in the WotI-variants would then reflect just that--the Wrath of the Immortals at the evils and iniquities of the city. Think of the religious implications stemming from there--a great religious revival throughout Alphatia might occur, as people attempt to return to the "right path". This could in turn make post-Wrath politics far more interesting and complex.
While it might be a major change to canon, it would probably make things a lot more interesting--after all, the Romans only become fascinating after the Emperors start making their horses Senators.
I don't think you need to depower the Council to accomplish the same thing, myself. For one thing, it is (as you point out) huge- 1,000 members is pretty unwieldy, and given its size, it will be largely ineffectual when it comes to actually accomplishing any meaningful legislation, even if you could get the majority to have the best interests of the nation as their paramount concern.
Then you have them serving as oversight on the Emperor/ess, which would deadlock so many things on that end.
Then, add in that they are all powerful wizards with their own interests at stake- some may be concerned with the nation, many with their own best interests, many just with the prestige, etc.
Then, add in that a lot of these guys are probably old, very eccentric characters in their own right (just look at Hugorth the Misanthrope, for one). Not to mention probably zzonga addiction among many.
I suppose you could do something like you suggest, filling the Council with lackeys and bootlickers and things, but I don't think you need to in order to have the same effect with it as it currently stands, but keeping them as this massively powerful body that can still wield vast might individually, if not collectively.
And as for Council intrigues, Alphatian history shows that they have stepped in before to depose Emperors, and- as recently as 2001 AY- there is at least one faction plotting to depose Empress Eriadna (as Bruce Heard showed in the most recent VotPA story).
[OT, but I'd have to disagree with your sentiment on Rome. I think Rome was just as fascinating- if not moreso- before the nobility's decline into decadence and depravity myself.]
For one thing, it is (as you point out) huge- 1,000 members is pretty unwieldy, and given its size, it will be largely ineffectual when it comes to actually accomplishing any meaningful legislation, even if you could get the majority to have the best interests of the nation as their paramount concern.
I think the Great Council's huge size and cumbersome power should reflect the chaotic character of the Alphatian Empire itself. Think something along the lines of the Reinassance Polish-Lithuanian Szlachta - a huge parliament composed af the most important noblemen of the realm, who constantly intrigue one against the other and in which a single contrary vote can block a whole set of laws.
I think the Alphatian Empire is best represented by something like that. The Emperors are powerful as long as they have lands (i.e. kingdoms), allies and riches by themselves. An Emperor without a kingdom probably would be only a puppet - unable to do anything the WHOLE Great Council doesn't agree. An imperial law would be effective as long as it pleases the Council.
IMO the Council isn't a body always in meeting, as modern parliaments, nor its members receive a payment from the Empire itself. The Council is reunited every time the Emperor needs approval and aid from fellow noblemen, or when the Council decides to meet by itself becouse of the bad decisions of the Emperor. However I think that most of the time single Council members tend to their own affairs.
This whole set of things allows IMO to explain better WHY the theoretically-less-powerful but much-more-organized Thyatian Empire has stood for a millennium againts its huge, more powerful but much-less-organized eastern rival.
[OT, but I'd have to disagree with your sentiment on Rome. I think Rome was just as fascinating- if not moreso- before the nobility's decline into decadence and depravity myself.]
I agree. Moreover the legend of the horse-senator comes from one phrase of Emperor Caligula cited by Suetonius; the Emperor, during a Circus horse-race, said that he'd have promoted his horse senator if the animal'd have won the race. No one has ever written that a horse wore the toga; that is something popular culture has made up in centuries of misinterpretation...
I don't think you need to depower the Council to accomplish the same thing, myself. For one thing, it is (as you point out) huge- 1,000 members is pretty unwieldy, and given its size, it will be largely ineffectual when it comes to actually accomplishing any meaningful legislation, even if you could get the majority to have the best interests of the nation as their paramount concern.
Then you have them serving as oversight on the Emperor/ess, which would deadlock so many things on that end.
Then, add in that they are all powerful wizards with their own interests at stake- some may be concerned with the nation, many with their own best interests, many just with the prestige, etc.
Then, add in that a lot of these guys are probably old, very eccentric characters in their own right (just look at Hugorth the Misanthrope, for one). Not to mention probably zzonga addiction among many.
I suppose you could do something like you suggest, filling the Council with lackeys and bootlickers and things, but I don't think you need to in order to have the same effect with it as it currently stands, but keeping them as this massively powerful body that can still wield vast might individually, if not collectively.
And as for Council intrigues, Alphatian history shows that they have stepped in before to depose Emperors, and- as recently as 2001 AY- there is at least one faction plotting to depose Empress Eriadna (as Bruce Heard showed in the most recent VotPA story)..
Definitely. Any legislative body of this size would have many divergant interests and agendas. Given their individual power, many would likely think they should be Emperor/ess and some may actually have the will to try and make it happen. Bruce showed but one faction, there are likely others. A successful Alphatian ruler would have to have a strong personality and will to keep the Council in line- it strikes me as somewhat similar to the English monarchy and Parliament relationship: The King/Queen had to work with Parliament to get anything done, and the great monarchs were able to influence Parliament to their way of thinking (diplomatically or by methods unsavory if needed.)
[OT, but I'd have to disagree with your sentiment on Rome. I think Rome was just as fascinating- if not moreso- before the nobility's decline into decadence and depravity myself.]
For me, the fascination with the decadent emperors (largely Caligula and Nero) is a mystery- then again I don't get why people are fascinated with Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan either. Republican Rome produced a fantastic array of characters who were much more interesting, and far better for Rome. The period form the Punic Wars to the end of the Civil Wars is as exciting historically as our past can get. And despite what popular culture depicts, there were many Emperors who, while less salicious, had solid acheivements, and helped keep the course of Western civilization on track.
But enough of the OT...
I think the Great Council's huge size and cumbersome power should reflect the chaotic character of the Alphatian Empire itself. Think something along the lines of the Reinassance Polish-Lithuanian Szlachta - a huge parliament composed af the most important noblemen of the realm, who constantly intrigue one against the other and in which a single contrary vote can block a whole set of laws.
I think the Alphatian Empire is best represented by something like that.
If it helps, compare trying to get the council to agree to one thing, to trying to herd a 1000 cats! :D
and i like the suggestion of it meeting only intermittently, like the old Polish Diets.
As far as the Roman Empire, I just enjoy all the little palace intrigues after the Empire conquered the world more than the actual world conquest. I'm more a Dominate man than a Principate one I suppose ;)
I think, for me, the problem is that 1,000 36th level mages doing one thing is pretty much going to bust up the whole world.
To me, though, the point is that you can't ever get those 1,000 mages to do any one thing. Their primary (in fact, at least initially, sole) function was/is to serve as oversight on the Emperor of the nation, to insure that the depradations of the likes of Kerothar (I think that was who it was) couldn't ever occur again. The nation of Alphatia seems to me to be essentially a "nation" that favors the notion of "that government governs best which governs least". They seem to really only be interested (IMO) in being an Empire in name, but not in practice.
I do think that having them all be 36th level is a bit much, and I personally tend to ignore that nowadays myself.
The main problem with this is as I see it, is its metagaming (i think it is a new word for an old concept, maybe 3rd edition). The people of Mystara don't know what "level" they are (in fact they don't know their alignment, class and so on). So the fact that you have to be a wizard of ultimate power to be in the council, should be quite vague to the Alphatians. A 36 top level only exists in the real world to people who are using OD&D game rules, and it should be reached by rare (epic, if you will) people. So the "ultimate" power of the council members should be not really ultimate, but "very high". Which is a relative term. I like the concept that the council was once composed of extremely powerful wizards only (the ones alive before landfall), and that the numbers and power level declined.
To compare, the two most powerful wizards mentioned in Gaz3 (Glantri) are Ettiene (35, but also immortal) and Brannart (33, but also a lich). Most of the wizard princes are 20-30.
The subject of the 1000x36 wizards has been discusssed lots of times on the MML and MMB through the years.
The main problem with this is as I see it, is its metagaming (i think it is a new word for an old concept, maybe 3rd edition). The people of Mystara don't know what "level" they are (in fact they don't know their alignment, class and so on). So the fact that you have to be a wizard of ultimate power to be in the council, should be quite vague to the Alphatians. A 36 top level only exists in the real world to people who are using OD&D game rules, and it should be reached by rare (epic, if you will) people. So the "ultimate" power of the council members should be not really ultimate, but "very high". Which is a relative term. I like the concept that the council was once composed of extremely powerful wizards only (the ones alive before landfall), and that the numbers and power level declined.
To compare, the two most powerful wizards mentioned in Gaz3 (Glantri) are Ettiene (35, but also immortal) and Brannart (33, but also a lich). Most of the wizard princes are 20-30.
You make some good points.
I also think it is a mistake to assume that because Alphatia has 1000 36th level wizards there needs to be a corresponding or bigger number of wizards in their 30s and 20s. I could easily see a situation where over the centuries alot of wizards have accumulated on the top level, because once they get there they don't go away and dont die, even from old age.
Also, Alphatia being the biggest center of magic on Mystara, the fact that there are a little of a thousand wizards of ultimate level there does not mean that there are too many such wizards elsewhere. I have estimated IMC that there are no more than 1500 36th level magic users on Mystara as a whole, including the Hollow World.
Havard
My mystara is a much more low-magic setting. It focuses on the known world. Most changes are to race and geography:
1. No elves! Actually, there are elves but not classic D&D ones. I am a big fan of PC1:Tall Tales, so Elf is just another word for Fey, specifically the Sidhe. Alfheim is synonimous with the fairy court of Oberon and is located out of mortal reach in the deepest forest of Canolbarth (which has all sorts of nature spirits and monsters).
The shadow elves, are evil fey and they are the same as the dark elves who corrupted some of the dwarves of the northern reaches. Wendar, Belcadiz and Minrothad are predomintaly human realms.
2. Relocations: My Known World is less of a cultural patchwork.
A. Atraugin is out (and there is no plateau there), so darokin has a larger coastal area (western border straight down from Akesoli. Ylaruam replaces sind, and so is much larger. The sindhi mountians are home to a rich sedentary arab and persian culture. The sind desert and great waste is the home to lots of (alaysian) culture of arabs/beduin in the east, south african cultures to the south, and near Hule the culture is more west-asian. I didn't decide if Nithia is buried under the Sind desert or in norther Thyatis.
B. Because Ylaruam is not there, Thyatis northern border is about 5 hexes to the north (3oo kms or so). The Northern Part is divided between a larger Rockhome (impassible moutains defended by dwarves against Thyatian expansions), and Soderfjord, which is a poor fractioned land fighting against imperial Thyatis.
C. Darokin is a very large country (the canolbarth is smaller, it has land west of Malpheggi swamp. However its military might is occupied by thyatian border disputes, and raids from the Orclands, Canolbarth (Centaurs are not so nice), Ethengar and the Broken lands (see below). Darokin is a kingdom, but the merchan houses have more actual power than the king.
D. Ethengar split!: The name Ethengar is the name of the strongest (Neather humans) barbarian tribes in the broken wild lands between Darokin and Wendar. The mongol khantas sit atop the Adri Varma Plateau and raid into Glantri (they come from the "Land of the Great Khan" of course). So basically there is a huge uncivilised land ruled by warring humans, orcs, kobold and ogres were The broken Lands, Ethengar, and Darokinian Orclands were.
E. No Ierendi! The Hawaian experience cruise has annoyed me since I finished reading that gaz. Instead, the cuthrougt Minrothad Guilds have control of almost all islands in the northern sea of dread (and beyond). The Thadders are a mafor naval power and fight Thyatis as a colonialist empire.
3. Goblins: The goblinoid races are not what they are in most games. They are the true "beasmen" the reincarnated currupted souls of men and dwarves. They have very varied shapes and colors (mostly animalistic) in game terms they can be anything from a goblin to a bugbear (depending on size). They live in the darkest of places and serve evil powers. They are not parts of barbarian humanoid hordes (Orcs have that niche to themselves).
4 Magic: Magic is more rare. Churches are very powerfull but individual clerics rarely perform outstanding miracles. Wizards are the ruling class in Glantri and Alphatia but not elsewhere. In most lands, arcane casters are mostly hedge wizards, village witches and so on, and even thery are feared and persecuted.
5. Classes: Rangers/Paladins spelless variants, Bards as prestige class, No Sorcerers, A version of Witch available.
1. No elves! Actually, there are elves but not classic D&D ones. I am a big fan of PC1:Tall Tales, so Elf is just another word for Fey, specifically the Sidhe. Alfheim is synonimous with the fairy court of Oberon and is located out of mortal reach in the deepest forest of Canolbarth (which has all sorts of nature spirits and monsters).
The shadow elves, are evil fey and they are the same as the dark elves who corrupted some of the dwarves of the northern reaches.
Interesting idea... i might use something like this, but a bit twisted--the shadow elves WERE fey, but are now more 'material' as a result of some dark event in their past. Makes them a bit scarier...
E. No Ierendi! The Hawaian experience cruise has annoyed me since I finished reading that gaz.
Ierendi is the best part of the Known World!
BOOO!!!
3. Goblins: The goblinoid races are not what they are in most games. They are the true "beasmen" the reincarnated currupted souls of men and dwarves. They have very varied shapes and colors (mostly animalistic) in game terms they can be anything from a goblin to a bugbear (depending on size). They live in the darkest of places and serve evil powers. They are not parts of barbarian humanoid hordes (Orcs have that niche to themselves).
I also think it is a mistake to assume that because Alphatia has 1000 36th level wizards there needs to be a corresponding or bigger number of wizards in their 30s and 20s. I could easily see a situation where over the centuries alot of wizards have accumulated on the top level, because once they get there they don't go away and dont die, even from old age.
That's a really good point, and one I hadn't even really thought about myself. There is also the duelling factor to take into consideration (a lot of those uber-mages you mention probably wouldn't take too kindly to upstart "whippersnappers" trying to attain their levels of power and influence, and would take care of them early on).
Which also brings up the point of education- wizards, more than any other class, must continually teach (or be taught) their higher magics, and to attain the heights of wizardry, they really have to be dedicated to their craft and learn from other wizards and/or researching ancient arts. I'd imagine a lot of Alphatians would be content with just the "lesser" arts of wizardry, enough to make them nobility and be able to lord it over others, without bothering with the long years of dedication. Those that do seek more, would still have to find a means of learning those higher arts, and would probably have a tough time gleaning these secrets from the Council members, certainly.
I could potentially see where there might be a real level gap among wizards in Alphatia- possibly tens of thousands in the lower levels (1-10), a little over 1,000 at the highest level (36 or thereabouts), and only thousands or hundreds in the between levels.
Ierendi is the best part of the Known World!
BOOO!!!
I guess it is a matter of taste...
I've got to say- I used to really detest the Ierendi Gaz myself, but I went back and started to reread it around the time that the Savage Tide AP began in Dungeon, and I really like Ierendi. There are several parts (I think we all know which) that really should be put out to pasture, but for the most part, I think there is some great material there. I think it wasn't expanded upon as much as it could have been (for instance, a lot of the space they devoted to tourist ads, and to the extensive descriptions of some of the Ierendi City locations would have been better served in development of areas like Elegy Island, the Tribunal and Council, etc.)
Good points. Even though there is a bunch of silly stuff in the gazetteer, there are some good elements in there as well. I think the Pirate, Wizard, Druid elements are more interesting than the Hawaiian stuff. I dont mind a Hawaiian country in Mystara, but it seems misplaced to me...
Havard
And for Mystara itself, I try to keep it as canon as possible. My Mystara is basically just like it's described, except for some terrible anacronysms, like Ierendi (a mercantile nation here), Cimarron (more like RW american 13 colonies) and those XIX century uniforms (they're more like XVII french uniforms here). Thyatis is also more like the Holy Roman Empire, and there's no true difference between "true" thyatians and kerendans (no roman clothes and armors).
The main difference, however, is that it's a extremely low-level, low-magic setting. Magical itens, even that dagger +1, are unique itens with names and a long history. Most of the clergy are not composed by clerics, but rather commoners. Clerics and paladins are really saints. Mages are more renaiscence alchemists, rare and misterious, teaching only a few gifty aprendices instead of a whole magic school. 10th level corresponds to 20th/36th levels, as characters at that level are almost Immortals, in a sense.
I dont mind a Hawaiian country in Mystara, but it seems misplaced to me...
Like so much else...
If anything, the Ierendi gaz didn't go far enough. It really should have put more emphasis on the fact that yes, your PCs can be Magnum, P.I. or Tubbs and Crocket from Miami Vice. What I like about Ierendi is that yes, it's kinda silly, but at the same time, presents a place that would be just plain fun to adventure in.