Another thing I was lookig at with Monks is all the abilities they are already granted through the Specials fo rthe class. That I may just incorporate into the manuevers or maybe allow them as they are and then make less manuevers available per level and remove the ones that would just mimick or be too similiar to what the Specials have.
Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Unarmed Damage, AC Bonus, and Unarmored Speed Bonus would all remaing as they are. I see no point in tinkering with what is already perfect.
Flurry of Blows concept is in the trash can though. The manuevers themselves are sometimes capable of multiple attacks and usually with their own penalty or bonus and some manuevers like the Great Wall of China (still needs a name change) will attack with 9 kicks to up to 3 opponents in one turn. Overkill? Maybe, but you would have to be a very high level character to ever even get the opportunity to learn it.
I'm looking at the Player's Handbook 3.5 as I type this so bear with me. I'll be back later. If anyone at all has any suggestions for using current skills instead of making 6 new skills.
Currently I don't see any skills. Feats maybe, but I think I like the skill thing better. They will give additional bonuses to attacks and so on that will make the monk more stylish. Such as a monk that kicks far better than grapples or punches. Punching and Kicking skills would be usable by any class, so the occasional fighter who rips his shirt off in a tavern and boxes a group of loud mouths to a pulp is actually possible. Even if they were armed.
In Oriental Adventures, they had schools of martial arts and each school was tied with certain skills and feats. Each school also had a Mastery feat where if you met the feat/skill prerequisites for it, would essentially be a bonus feat (no feat slots spent) that would give you an extra boost.
Unearthed Arcana also had schools, and worked off the bonus feat choice mechanic for the Monk that came in 3.5- ie, it provided different bonus feat choices for the school, and you would also get a skill bonus for that school. You can find the Unearthed Arcana rules here, as UA is Open Content and was added to the SRD.
Offhand, I'm thinking that perhaps you could somehow modify your rules in a style similar to the UA rules, but extending over the entire 20 levels. It would also allow other classes to dip into them, but obviously only monks would be able to completely benefit.
Maybe alternative class features, swapping out Monk abilities for maneuvers, might be an option as well?
That Unearthed Arcana idea is pretty good. I actually have the Oriental Adventures books, but I didn't like them too much. But the school idea works well with the UA idea. But instead of giving just options, I'll stick to the discount costs for choosing manuevers that are listed in the monks chosen style, and giving the monk enough flexibility to choose manuevers outside of the style, but at a penalizing cost. That will guide most monks to stick with their own styles standard moves. If I recall there were around 300 manuevers that I listed, and quite a few styles. I don't like too much restraint, but the UA idea actually is getting me thinking of a way for any class to purchase manuevers, but monks would get at least one every level that they have met the prerequisites to use and it would be a standard manuever in their style. Maybe even learning several. So a Kung Fu master would have a core of entirely different manuevers than a Stone Boxing Champion, but could have used the same method as other classes would, to gain manuevers outside their style. I was thinking of allowing any class to purchase manuevers they can qualify for by using skill points that they would normally use on skills. They would have to meet the prerequisites and then they could use skill points to "buy" the manuever at the listed skill cost. Of course the use of "Chi" consumed by each manuever would have to become available to any character. It could easily be their level + Constitution modifier + Wisdom modifier. Then a monk who is level 5 and has a constitution of 15 and a Wisdom of 13 would have...I don't have the book with me now. But I'll throw out a guess of 5 + 2 + 1 = 8. So he could easily use a low powered manuever 8 times before resting for a night. This would allow Sorcerer's, Rangers, Rogues, Fighters, and Paladin's to be able to use hand to hand combat effectively, but never to the extent a monk would. How is this sounding so far?Havard
You know- have you ever seen Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords? That's got a system of combat and some new base classes that operate on a similar sort of principle- basically, they get some maneuver options to start, increasing as they get new levels, and they can choose increasingly powerful maneuvers as long as they meet the prereqs. The system there is a little wonky in places (such as the overly complicated means by which they attach "levels" to maneuvers, in addition to other prereqs, and the mechanics of swapping out maneuvers), but you might at least check out those excerpts I linked above for some more ideas.
Thanks, I'll see about getting that book and check it out before I get too deep here.
I'm generally not too happy about the idea of introducing new skills. Feats, new class abilities, new uses for existing skills etc all seem like ways to go. If you want some of the maneuvers to be exclusive for Monks only, then having the flurry of blows ability as a requirement might be something for you?
Havard
I'd love to use existing skills, or a new class ability to provide some level of punch, kick, grab, athletics, block and focus, each of which would improve the Monk's combat and provide more manuever possibilities, which would require these ablities. Then I could make a bunch of weaker manuevers not require these abilities so that a low level monk could use them as well as other class characters. I still the "extra" manuevers should cost skill points to show that the character spent time mastering the manuever instead of working on other areas. There wouldn't be a cross-class penalty though. For the Monk he would learn the manuevers through choices per level and could purchase extra manuevers with skill points if he desires.
I'm trying to make the Monk job here better than my Mystic job before. That one was simmplified and rushed. I have extra time to work on this project so I want it to work and be used by some of you guys.
Thanks, I'll see about getting that book and check it out before I get too deep here.
Yeah- I'd look through the excerpts I linked to, and maybe check out some reviews or other areas of the boards here (it's been discussed, I believe, in the DnD boards). That way, you can get a better idea before you end up buying something you might not use.
I'd love to use existing skills, or a new class ability to provide some level of punch, kick, grab, athletics, block and focus, each of which would improve the Monk's combat and provide more manuever possibilities, which would require these ablities.
Hm. That sounds a little like Skill Tricks, which is a new concept introduced in Complete Scoundrel.
Still brainstorming here, so bear with me and keep coming with the ideas. They are helping me a lot.
Went to my local Dragon's Lair and got a copy of the Complete Scoundrel. There are a lot of feats that are exactly what some of the manuevers are. So I think maybe I should definetly go with a new take on this.
Cool! I don't actually have CS yet myself, though (obviously) I've read about it, which is why I suggested the similarity of the skill tricks.
I was actually kind of skeptical of the Skill Tricks myself (as opposed to just feats and/or high level skill abilities), but I'm looking forward to seeing more of your maneuvers and such developed along the feat/skill lines.
I'm liking your suggestions so far- as you say, having them as Martial Arts skill feats would allow for other classes to take them, but only high skill point classes would really get the full benefit. Of course, that just reminded me- monks only get 4 skill points/level, so, hmm...
Maybe you could still use some things like alternate class features, allowing them to swap out abilities for maneuvers (maybe 2 maneuvers per ability), or going along with the Unearthed Arcana combat style idea, working skill tricks into that progression, in order to offset the lower skill points that monks get?
Still brainstorming here, so bear with me and keep coming with the ideas. They are helping me a lot.
Will do.
One other thing off the top of my head. I started to compile a list of all the various uses for skills in all the WotC products that I own a while back, and got the bulk of them. Someone on the ENWorld boards had done something similar and sent me a copy of his as well (which, IIRC was a little more complete than mine). It might help you out in terms of figuring out uses for skills already out there. I'll send it along if you'd like.
I like the swapping out idea of abilities for maneuvers. That maybe what I go with ultimately. I was just thinking of throwing in about a move or two along with the abilities. Making those moves part of the abilities list. Then I could remove some of the current abilities form some styles like Stone Boxing, which is a dwarven form of boxing and earth elemental manipulation. Well, time to rest and let the cog wheels cool down for the night.