Do planets in other closed spheres have a grey of thier own? And is there any way at all for spelljamming ships to get in the sphere?
Furthermore, if the Grey were to be moved/removed/destroyed or something to that effect, what would happen to the spirits of all those dead athasians?
--why people refuse to comprehend that 2e cosmology is no longer relevent boggles me NB
*sigh* Athas isn't cut off from any planes whatsoever. In 3rd edition, it it is canonical fact that every D&D setting is in its own, self-contained multiverse.
I don't like that view, I'd rather all worlds be part of the same multiverse, that's my take anyway.
*sigh* Athas isn't cut off from any planes whatsoever. In 3rd edition, it it is canonical fact that every D&D setting is in its own, self-contained multiverse. So, no: Athas is cut off from nowhere, because it doesn't connect to the Great Wheel, isn't in a crystal sphere, and will never be visited by Elminster.
--why people refuse to comprehend that 2e cosmology is no longer relevent boggles me NB
Not precisely so. Only Eberron makes exclusive reference to being completely cut of from the Great Wheel. Greyhawk and the Realms are said to be part of the same cosmology, and in past products Athas is said to be connected, too, through Sigil. And Ravenloft. And the Astral Plane. It's just hard to get there, and if one just takes the three minutes necessary to read the pertinent information available in Defilers and Preservers, the difficulty in getting to Athas is explained, complete with percentage stats for getting through, and penalties of getting lost in the Grey.
It's just hard to get there, and if one just takes the three minutes necessary to read the pertinent information available in Defilers and Preservers, the difficulty in getting to Athas is explained, complete with percentage stats for getting through, and penalties of getting lost in the Grey.
The difference isn't that we never read that material, it is that we all thought it was dumb then and didn't buy it just because some marketing fool at WotC thought it was a good idea to mash everything together, but now we can back up just how dumb that was with rules :D Besides, since we can have halfling wizards and dwarven bards and such now, 2nd Edition setting canon based on stupid game rules can go rot! Cheer, my friends, for victory!
DEATH TO THE PERCENTAGE STATS IN DEFILERS AND PRESERVERS!
THE PLANESCAPE IS A LIE!! :fight!:
Or maybe the Grey is what's cordoning Athas off from the rest of the planes/multi-verse.
Furthermore, if the Grey were to be moved/removed/destroyed or something to that effect, what would happen to the spirits of all those dead athasians?
I don't know about the ones that are currently there, BUT every one who has ever died on Athas is not there, because the souls fade to nothing over time, though it would be interesting, Kalak and Agis would get out.
I don't know about the ones that are currently there, BUT every one who has ever died on Athas is not there, because the souls fade to nothing over time, though it would be interesting, Kalak and Agis would get out.
That would definetly put a twist on things!
Just because Athas may be part of a larger multiverse doesn't mean that a DM has to plan for a plane spanning campaign. Its much like a location on a map. I mean honestly, does every DM need to make plans for the Mud Palace just because its there on the map of the Tyr Region?
Dragonlance has its own multiverse. No Baator, no Outlands, no Mount Celestia.....but there are three distinct Outer Planes, one super-plane Krynn floats in, and no crystal spheres within sight.
Eberron doesn't even have Inner Planes, for crying out loud! It's in its own multiverse. One totally unconnected to any others, just like Krynn, Oerth, and, to a lesser extent, Toril.
Never mind the fact that almost every single 3rd party setting has its own multiverse and planar set-up.
Really. *sigh* The old unified cosmology is dead. This is official canon. It will likely never change.
--hence, Athas deserves its own multiverse, free of the taint of Krynn and spelljamming and Sigil NB
--hence, Athas deserves its own multiverse, free of the taint of Krynn and spelljamming and Sigil NB
You forgot about about the grand-daddy of the modern settings: Mystara, which didn't have anything close to the Outer Planar cosmology or multi-prime setting-hopping. I grew up on that (so multicosmos-setting hatred is not something tied to being a new player. They used to keep their chocolate out of my peanut butter; I'd prefer they continued to do so).
There was also the Birthright setting, a 2E product, which had its own planar cosmology and existed in a seperate multiverse from the other 2E worlds (thank the gods!).
I used to complain in my 2E days about shuffling every world into one (originally just a cheap marketing ploy to try and sell more product! True!), and the nonsense and parody of multi-cosmos settings was highlighted to me when one of my players simply couldn't seem to understand why I wouldn't allow her Krynnish knight into my homebrew pseudo-Arthurian world.
She refused to accept "Because Krynn doesn't exist for this universe. The only other 'place' that isn't 'here' is Faerie...or should I have mecha drop out of the sky, too?" as a reason.
Apparently, "She fell through a portal" (which couldn't exist according to setting dictates) made some kind of sense and kept the whole idea from being absurd or turning play into any less of a parody than the following idea:
"Let's play Lord of the Rings!"
"I get to be Wolverine!"
"You...what?"
"Maybe he fell through a magical portal!"
"Wolverine, from the X-men, in Middle-earth?"
"Yeah, because there's a multiverse and Middle-earth is part of it and so Wolverine could cross interplanar boundaries in some kind of accident -- "
" -- because being a cigar-smoking mutant with titanium bones and a bad attitude just screams 'Epic High Fantasy'. Right. This is not Toon; make a hobbit or get out."
(Cause you know what's next: "I love Dark Sun! Can I play a Jedi?")
(Cause you know what's next: "I love Dark Sun! Can I play a Jedi?")
Hell, that's less annoying than when you actually ARE playing StarWars, and one player refuses to be anything other than an Ewok (which she played like a Kender)!
Cheesy wacked-out character concepts come about in even the most purist of campaign settings that don't use a inter-linking multiverse cosmology. Example, a Red Paladin of Thay
Example, a Red Paladin of Thay
Red Paladin of Thay? Where's this class from? What does it do? Is it similar to the Thayan Knight, a PrC I like?
Red Paladin of Thay? Where's this class from? What does it do? Is it similar to the Thayan Knight, a PrC I like?
I was being facetious in order to drive a point across ;)
As in, why would a lawful good paladin work for the red wizards?
--why people refuse to comprehend that 2e cosmology is no longer relevent boggles me NB
Becasue much of the history of the setting depends on such cosmology.
There have been devils, demons, yugoloths, and githyanki; with at least some mention of their home planes. Not to mention all the powers and spells that accessed these other areas.
If you remove all of the old cosmology, you need to rewrite a significant chunk of Athasian history. This does not appeal to everyone.
the nonsense and parody of multi-cosmos settings was highlighted to me when one of my players simply couldn't seem to understand why I wouldn't allow her Krynnish knight into my homebrew pseudo-Arthurian world
Blame the player, not the game.
It was common knowledge among my players that I considered everything to be in the same multiverse. It never stopped me from running a game on a world that was completely secluded from all others, or from limiting the choices of players to things I deemed reasonable for the campaign at hand.
I considered everything to be in the same multiverse
*shudders*
Becasue much of the history of the setting depends on such cosmology...If you remove all of the old cosmology, you need to rewrite a significant chunk of Athasian history. This does not appeal to everyone.
I'm going to challenge that claim by asking which "significant chunk" you refer to? Cleansing Wars? Green Age? Blue Age? Age of Heroes? Kreen Invasion?
I see no significant (or even insignificant) portion of Athasian history that absolutely relies upon Athas being in the same multiverse as the 2E family of worlds, or necessitates rewriting any of the history if you remove it from such (and that includes both Dregoth's planar gate and the events of the Black Flames adventure, for reasons indicated below).
There have been devils, demons, yugoloths, and githyanki; with at least some mention of their home planes. Not to mention all the powers and spells that accessed these other areas.
Eberron has all the same things. Does Eberron rely on the 2E planar cosmology and multiversal connections in order to function? Does Mystara? Or Birthright?
You may not have been aware, but the 3E DS team was very easily able to provide for a closed Athasian multiverse by making all those Outer Planar and Other Planar places (IIRC) their own strange plane that exist far out in the depths of the Black. No need for multiversal cosmology at all.
This is mainly because Dark Sun has never been about any of those other places, so doing the above has no significant impact on it (whereas the reverse is not true: allowing a multiversal cosmology has a significant effect on the theme and nature of the setting).
To understand why that is, it is just as the idea and value of Middle-Earth and the LotR series that make them what they are is reduced and diluted -- fundamentally altered -- by tying it to an extended, shared multiverse (especially so one(s) that shares nothing of the same theme), the value of the Dark Sun setting, as a story-setting, is negatively affected by tying it up to a larger set of unrelated worlds.
Art geeks like myself will understand it this way: when you paint an apple, the painting is about that apple. When you put that same apple into a bowl of fruit, the painting is about the bowl of fruit -- no matter how interesting or centralized that apple is.
Blame the player, not the game.
Actually, I'll blame the game for giving the player the idea that it was acceptable, defensible, or rational in the first place. :D
Curious. Explain how Dregoth found out about real gods, their worshipers, and astral conduits?
Ahh, yes. I just reread the specific passages about what Dregoth knows (or thinks he "knows"), and I admit that may be the one instance where the multiversal connection is significant and require serious rewriting of what Dregoth is attempting (though not necessarily the event itself). Hrm, I seem to recall a thread discussing this very issue some months back, or am I mistaken?
If you think this is bad they retconned the planes for the Forgotten Realms. In 1st and 2nd ed it was part of the great wheel now it has its own cosmology yet still draws on the great wheel in alot of ways- 9 hells, the Abyss, etc.
Lame.
You may not have been aware, but the 3E DS team was very easily able to provide for a closed Athasian multiverse by making all those Outer Planar and Other Planar places (IIRC) their own strange plane that exist far out in the depths of the Black. No need for multiversal cosmology at all.
Indeed. The Deep.
More specifically, the Deep was designed to be whatever you want it to be. Want to have the Great Wheel and the Outer Planes attached to Athas? Just make the Deep the name that Athasians use for all that stuff. Want to use the Far Realm as a source of a mindshattering psurlon invasion? Make the Deep the same as the Far Realm. Want to make something of your own up? Go for it. Want to have nothing out there at all? Great - make the Deep refer to the void beyond the planes. It's an intentional design blank spot that allows for individual DMs to craft their larger multiverse in whatever way they see fit. Fact is (as this thread shows), different DMs want different things from their larger cosmology and we figured that the Deep was the best way to exercise sufficient sleight of hand to allow for the best of all worlds.
In my games it's an enormous moon ranch where the space halflings raise a legion of giant hamsters in preparation for the coming of Woolly Rupert. But there you go...
Indeed. The Deep.
More specifically, the Deep was designed to be whatever you want it to be. Want to have the Great Wheel and the Outer Planes attached to Athas? Just make the Deep the name that Athasians use for all that stuff. Want to use the Far Realm as a source of a mindshattering psurlon invasion? Make the Deep the same as the Far Realm. Want to make something of your own up? Go for it. Want to have nothing out there at all? Great - make the Deep refer to the void beyond the planes. It's an intentional design blank spot that allows for individual DMs to craft their larger multiverse in whatever way they see fit. Fact is (as this thread shows), different DMs want different things from their larger cosmology and we figured that the Deep was the best way to exercise sufficient sleight of hand to allow for the best of all worlds.
In my games it's an enormous moon ranch where the space halflings raise a legion of giant hamsters in preparation for the coming of Woolly Rupert. But there you go...
haha! awesome, THAT'S what i'm talking about...a blank spot is spot enough and allowing a DM and his group to grow it in whatever way is relevant and fun is the important part. not the tyrannical decree of "old multiversal cosmology is dumb, no one should use it ever now that the new rules say that each place has its own cosmology"...all preference and opinion, and "the deep" is a perfect way of creating an adaptable option that everyone can live with and not get ****** because it goes against canon or mechanics or whichever edition. space hamsters rock...long live the Great Wooley Rupert!!
a portal form the black to the plane of shadow
Hmm... I always thought that the Black IS the Plane of Shadow.
Hmm... I always thought that the Black IS the Plane of Shadow.
Personally I would have it be similar to the plane of shadow but slightly different. I think theres room for each world to have its own cosmology but other cosmologys can be reached either via the Astral plane or the Plane of Shadow/Black.
Athas needs a players guideto Athas similr to the Players Guide to Faerun which updates things like the planes, spells, PrCs and various other bits and pieces.
Indeed. The Deep.
Yes, that was it.
Query: how does the Deep explain Dregoth's discoveries about worshipers, gods, and astral conduits for those of us who do not utilize a multiversal cosmology?
Yes, that was it.
Query: how does the Deep explain Dregoth's discoveries about worshipers, gods, and astral conduits for those of us who do not utilize a multiversal cosmology?
The simplest explanation is that Dregoth is insane and that he saw what he wanted to believe when he entered into the Deep. Being on the verge of achieving the last stage of the metamorphosis and then denied of ever attaining it (due to becoming undead), his mind compensated on a subconscious level and deluded him into believing that there was a higher state of being above that of a fully transformed dragon. That state being that of an actual deity.
The simplest explanation is that Dregoth is insane and that he saw what he wanted to believe when he entered into the Deep. Being on the verge of achieving the last stage of the metamorphosis and then denied of ever attaining it (due to becoming undead), his mind compensated on a subconscious level and deluded him into believing that there was a higher state of being above that of a fully transformed dragon. That state being that of an actual deity.
Or that Dregoth actually made it to another world as he does seem to know about other worlds and true gods. Also New Giustanel has dragon bones from other worlds there. Even in 2nd ed it wasn't clear if Athas was part of the great wheel cosmology or not. The fact its elemental planes are different seem to indicate it has its own cosmology. However it seems to have limted contact with the D&D great wheel cosmology which would indicate it isn't entirely cut off. Perhaops the Athasian Astral plane has conections to the normal astral plane or ceertain artifacts can breach dimensional barriers and gain access to other worlds and their planes.
Or that Dregoth actually made it to another world as he does seem to know about other worlds and true gods. Also New Giustanel has dragon bones from other worlds there. Even in 2nd ed it wasn't clear if Athas was part of the great wheel cosmology or not. The fact its elemental planes are different seem to indicate it has its own cosmology. However it seems to have limted contact with the D&D great wheel cosmology which would indicate it isn't entirely cut off. Perhaops the Athasian Astral plane has conections to the normal astral plane or ceertain artifacts can breach dimensional barriers and gain access to other worlds and their planes.
Greyorm asked:
how does the Deep explain Dregoth's discoveries about worshipers, gods, and astral conduits for those of us who do not utilize a multiversal cosmology?
Which is why a offered an explanation that didn't include the Great Wheel cosmology.
Yes, that was it.
Query: how does the Deep explain Dregoth's discoveries about worshipers, gods, and astral conduits for those of us who do not utilize a multiversal cosmology?
The Deep itself doesn't offer any explanation for that, although it does allow you to devise your own.
By definition, if you accept the material about Dregoth, worshippers, gods and astral conduits, you are implicitly accepting certain aspects of the multiversal cosmology.
If you don't use the multiversal cosmology, however, you can come up with your own explanations for what Dregoth was doing. The concept of the Deep might then allow you to more easily incorporate your own rationale for Dregoth's activities, depending upon what explanation you decide to come up with. It provides you with what is essentially a blank slate upon which to write your own explanations.
(It's a problem inherent to the DS3e setting, imho, in that Dark Sun as originally written did incorporate the multiversal cosmology, even the Great Wheel. There are enough incidences of it in the 2e material to make this clear, and the fact that most 3e settings now have their own cosmologies doesn't change this fact. The concept of the Deep was a stab at providing a way to address that problem and allow gamers who don't use the multiversal model to have the freedom that they desire without invalidating the 2e material that many DS fans still use).
Curious. Explain how Dregoth found out about real gods, their worshipers, and astral conduits?
I know that none of you know this - but I had an interesting theory about why athaisans would have the word and/or knowledge of "gods".
Now before I start, I want you all to put your sticks, stones, and burning pitch away. I will wait....
Okay, is that everyone than? Good. Now, here was my idea.
Maybe, just maybe, gods did exist on Athas at some point. Now I would think that this would have to be before the halflings and the Blue Age, and what ever peoples or Era was before the rise of the halflings had already disappeared, leaving only the barest of fragments that contained the tale of the gods of Athas.
“Where did the gods go and where are the divine connections to Athas to support this?” you ask. Well let me tell you.
In a tragic occurrence throughout any history – one group among the gods was not happy with their cut of the “power pie” and a war broke out between the divine factions. Long did the struggle take place, and savage was the gods fury. Deities fell on both sides and with each death, the resolve to emerge as the victory of their “side” drove the gods to greater and greater acts of power and savagery.
One such strike, and the last, was when one side attempted to sever their opponent’s connection with their divine conduit. It worked, but much better and with devastating results for them all. The backlash of power destroyed all of the divine connections to Athas.
As every remaining god died, their combined energy and desire to possess Athas caused their divine energy to consolidate – forming a layer and boundary around Athas that effectively cut off the world from the rest of creation. This layer became the Black.
It is because of the few fragments of lore that remain that anyone on Athas has an idea of what a “god” is. Dregoth, being the super-neat researcher that he is, discovered this and knew that divinity is possible. The reason he needed to get the blood of a god (see DA III) was because the essence of the dead gods of Athas had merged and mutated over the tens or hundreds of thousands of years since the end of the divine conflict.
Now, is this a full proof idea. No – I am sure it is not and there may be several holes in my story and thinking, but I thought it was an interesting idea and I wanted to share it with yous guys.
It fits perfectly with the whole feel of the Dark Sun world.
(Bruno, I see a lot of disturbing similarities between the two of us lately. You don't have yellow fur, do you?)
Having no gods is one of the nicer bits of fluff about Dark Sun.
I always DMed Dark Sun with the idea that the other planes where there but you had no way of knowing how to get there.
Sure, you could cast Planeshift but how would you know where to target the spell?
I stole the idea that you could 'go fish' with Planeshift from the Tsurani (Riftwar) strategy of firing off Rifts at random; you would end up on any old plane (hi risk).
Having planer travel essentially random (god bless the rules about random planes in some long forgotten Player's Option/High Level book) kept it out of the every day use of anyone who did not want to star in the Athasian version of 'Sliders'.
I also put Athas in a Crystal Sphere that was years wide and filled with bad things (such as the Dark Void in the Deathstalker series).
These all seemed to work quite well; you could do all the things 2nd ed implied you could but it was always way too much bother.
Curious. Explain how Dregoth found out about real gods, their worshipers, and astral conduits?
He knows about real gods and thier worshippers from trips he's taken through the planar gate, but does not know (according to city by the silt sea) about astral spiritual conduits, and it says that no matter what he does he won't be able to make one on Athas, and will never become a god.
He knows about real gods and thier worshippers from trips he's taken through the planar gate, but does not know (according to city by the silt sea) about astral spiritual conduits, and it says that no matter what he does he won't be able to make one on Athas, and will never become a god.
I know thats the real reason. I was asking this in relation to those who take the stance in that Athas has a cosmology outside of the Great Wheel.
Oh, I do have one, and only one transitive plane able to traverse the Gray. Obscure, without people knowing about it. Plus, the very nature of Athas makes this one particular plane difficult to ever discover its existence. It is the plane I believe that the Planar Gate uses -- the Plane of Mirrors. With a significant lack of metal on Athas to begin with, plus with as obscure as the Plane of Mirrors is anyway, any group i my campaign would need to basically be spoon-fed information about it to get anything... And I'm not fond of just handing information out to my players for free. Information of this magnitude is.... well... obscure enough that even Rajaat himself never figured it out.