Even though he is not a deity of any kind, we can comfortably say he is above demi god status of demi gods we do have the stats for. He would easily take Iuz or Vecna down in short order.
Also, it was an interesting that among one of the things that could permanently kill a dwarven Bashee other than the spirit lords/it's focus being destroyed, was the essence of Rajaat (The black ooze stuff that comes from the broken Scourge of Rkard) when it sprays on a dwarven Banshee.
Lets just say divine salient abilities make it very difficult to kill a god who isn't name Imhotep, Iuz or Kyuss (demigods essentially).
Rajaat ha ha me big evil ubel level sorceor. A D&D god- die (no save, no spell resisence just death).
My guess is he is that if you had t stat him out I would probably make him similar to a primal elemental form the Epic Level Handbook who looks slightly different and is alot smarter. In whatever form he is in I would guess he is around level 42-45 in spellcasting power plus would likely have numerous other abilities such as Psionics (level 30-35?).
For those that think this isn't powerful enough (level 60 blah blah blah) that puts him amoung the highest level wizards in any TSR/WotC published world. Makes the circle of eight look pathetic, is 16 spellcaster levels higher than Elminster, alot higher than Raistlin Majere, and is about equal to or slightly above Karsus/Ioulaum of Forgotten Realms ( Karsus killed a greater power BTW).
To be honest even that could make him to high and he could even clock in at about level 35. Level 35 minimum level 45 or so maximum. His epic spells cast are about on par with various epic wizards on other worlds for comparisons sake. This is just my opinion of course and in my games the various Sorceor Kings would clock in at somewhere around CR 23-37. I think the open ended nature of the epic level handbook and its theoretically infinite progression some people would like to say he is level 50 or 100 or even 200 but other epic screwups on other worlds have done similar things he has in terms of epic spells (transforming beings, creating flying forts, mutating life, creating artifacts). Most TSR/WoTC worlds have some cataclysmic event caused by magic or angry gods
Krynn-The Cataclysim
Forgotton Realms- Fall of Netheril/Immasker
Greyhawk- Rain of Colorless Fire
I'm sure theres a few more. The rules of magic are different on Athas and the ecological disaster was more of a side effect of Rajaats sorcery and the rules regarding magic on Athas which lacks the mystical weave or access to the outer planes to power magic a'la normal D&D world.
Could work for Rajaat as well.
In DnD power levels he could probably take Iuz Vecna no.
I think he could take either, at least going by second edition rules. When did Vecna instantly make a 20th level mage (Hamanu) to help him? Or sweep aside two 20th plus level psion/sorcerors, Tec and Andropinis, Rajaat could do this.
I posted in another thread that it says in Domains of Dread that no mortal or demi-god can snuff out Vecna's life force. I think it is meant to imply to kill him you must be a deity of above demi-god status, BUT if we go strictly by this definition, Rajaat isn't a mortal or a demi-god, so he could kill Vecna. I don't think any avatar could kill Rajaat.
he most powerful avatar in second edition I ever read about was Io's (monster mythology) who is immune to wishes even if they are to change it's alignment, but he doesn't need to, a good spell with the dark lens, say Otiluke's freezing sphere (which has no damage maximum BTW) times 10 would freeze the red dragon form solid, after he casts a lower resistance, also amplified with the lens.
Greater powers can kill mortals with a thought, Rajaat isn't a mortal.
ets just say divine salient abilities make it very difficult to kill a god who isn't name Imhotep, Iuz or Kyuss (demigods essentially).
I haven't seen a demi god that could match him. I think he could go against the true form of a lesser god (one step above demi god) and at kick some serious ass, say Jubilex.
My guess is he is that if you had t stat him out I would probably make him similar to a primal elemental form the Epic Level Handbook who looks slightly different and is alot smarter. In whatever form he is in I would guess he is around level 42-45 in spellcasting power plus would likely have numerous other abilities such as Psionics (level 30-35?).
I'm not sure, but maybe he unlike his Champions can use a living vortex (or at the very least, siphon material directly from the elemental planes) like when he made the Cerulean Storm.
To be honest even that could make him to high and he could even clock in at about level 35. Level 35 minimum level 45 or so maximum. His epic spells cast are about on par with various epic wizards on other worlds for comparisons sake.
No, I think he's beyond any mortal wizard, Greyhawk's ones, Rary, Bigby, Tenser, etc. As well as El and Raistlin. I'd say 100th level.
Krynn-The Cataclysim
Forgotton Realms- Fall of Netheril/Immasker
I thought the time of troubles was the big bad event.
I'm sure theres a few more. The rules of magic are different on Athas and the ecological disaster was more of a side effect of Rajaats sorcery and the rules regarding magic on Athas which lacks the mystical weave or access to the outer planes to power magic a'la normal D&D world.
Rajaat has more than source to power his spells, thus creating the Cerulean Storm with no plant life defiled (which is still raging I think after 300 years) and a blue sun without almost no effort at all.
Level 100 is just stupid and theres virtually no way in game he could be that high (lack of xp if nothing else) and would make him immune to the Sorceror Kings which when united can defeat him and in 2nd ed they were level 21-30. He is several thousand years old but so are various gods, epic characters and other figures in the D&D mythos
Stupid epic level rulebook and infinate levels (heres a hint the rules start to collapse around level 30 BTW if not sooner).
Its true no other TSR mage/wizard whatever drained power form the sun but Rajaat didn't kill a god either like Vecna or several other TSR wizards. The rules of magic for Athas are to different to really compare to the effects on other worlds. Also how much of Rajaats power was based on the Dark Lens and the Pristine Tower?
I wouldn't be insulted because I compared him to the most powerful of Forgotten Realms Netherise archmages such as Ioulaum and Karsus who done feats of magic of similar power to Rajaat and I even agreed he was slightly more powerful due to his Psionics if nothing else. Floating Cities check, kill the God of Magic check, become a level 45 illithid elder brain check.
The worlds are different but both the Realms and Athas have epic spell effets of similar power. The wards around Ur Draxa or Saragar are similar to FR Mythals for example and even Rajaat has his own floating pyramid. In 2nd ed alot of Netherise were alot higher in level than the Sorceror Kings (level 31-42 or so)and they defeated Rajaat so logically so could several Netherise as well- assuming they could power their spells on Athas or could planeshift one of their cities there or if Rajaat could go to FR and power his spells via the weave (defiling/preserving won't work there).
I like both worlds and don't want to get into the who has the dumbest campaign world magic peeing competition. I'm merely commneting the power level of the magic used is similar.
and I even agreed he was slightly more powerful due to his Psionics if nothing else.
Speaking of that, he simultaneously dominated all of his champions at the same time in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
If Rajaat could go to FR and power his spells via the weave (defiling/preserving won't work there).
He has more than preserving/defilning magic and why wouldn't it work? Preservers and Defilers are also mentioned in that player's option book 2E (forget the name) The plants have life force there like any other world. Our DM ruled that preservers and defilers were even more powerful on Krynn (yes, not FR) because the world was so lush and green. It may seriously annoy some nature gods, defiling vegetation, but I don't see why it wouldn't work, what prevents you draining plant's life.
Defilig/Preserving might work on onother world but then again it might not. On Athas you have to do it as there isn't anopther power source. Plants on other worlds may not have the mystical power needed for whatever reason. FR was just an example as the weave and shadow weave power magic there.
First of all, Athasian plants don't have mystical energy. Defiling/Preserving are techniques of drawing life energy from the plants. All living things have life energy, so this wouldn't be a problem in other worlds, provided they have plants.
Regarding the weave/shadow weave or other sources of magic, each setting's inhabitants had to discover magic on their own. Each group discovered and made their own explanations for the way magic works. Much like religion in the real world, they may all claim that they're talking about different "gods", but it's also possible that everyone's using a different name for the same thing.
I had always imagined that the Rebirth, which created the Green Age, was a massive spell that permeates all life on Athas. Rajaat's discovered how to manipulate the mystical 'grammar' of the Rebirth spell and therefore recreate the reality which it had created. The Athasian New Races can tap into this Rebirth Spell, because they are part of it, descendents of the transformed halflings who created it. The Old Races (thri-kreen and halflings) can't cast spells because they are not part of the Rebirth.
According to this scenario, defiling/preserving magic would not be possible outside of Athas.
Then again it depends on the world. As a rule of thumb I would say if a world has rules regarding magic ie Forgotten Realms and the weave defiling/preserving won't work. If magic just happens without explaining why that leave room for defiling/preserving to actually work. One would assume that some bright spark would have figured it out if it was possable to do so on another world.
Defilig/Preserving might work on onother world but then again it might not. On Athas you have to do it as there isn't anopther power source.
Not true at all. There are shadow mages who take thier energy from the black. Necromancy (invented by Gretch in the timeline) is also unique on Athas in the regard that it siphons energy from the Grey. And there also Tyr storms (Cerulean Wizards) that use them to power thier spells.
Nowhere does it say the plants' life energy is abnormal. It's simply life energy. That particular technique, IMO would work anywhere that has plant-life. Conversely, a wizard from Faerun would be pretty gimped on Athas without having the weave to draw upon. Until he learned how to draw energy from a different source, he would be more or less helpless.
Not true at all. There are shadow mages who take thier energy from the black. Necromancy (invented by Gretch in the timeline) is also unique on Athas in the regard that it siphons energy from the Grey. And there also Tyr storms (Cerulean Wizards) that use them to power thier spells.
While true they were added in later and I would suspect they're rare on Athas. Who knows how defiling/preserving works on other worlds. The weave on FR could prevent the energy being able to be drawn from the plants for example and as written in the FR book Athasian magic won't work there.
Who knows how defiling/preserving works on other worlds. The weave on FR could prevent the energy being able to be drawn from the plants for example and as written in the FR book Athasian magic won't work there.
An interesting idea, though I think the weave would have no effect on the life of plants.
The big difference (IMO) is that the Athasian wizards have limited options for drawing upon the power of magic, and their technique reflects that. The only available source of energy with which to power a spell on Athas is draining the life-energy of plants. On other worlds, I don't see how this would/could be hindered by an alternate source of power.
In fact, I think quite the opposite is true. While an Athasian wizard would be able to power their spells anywhere they can find plant-life, a wizard from a different setting would be unable to cast spells on Athas due to a lack of their accustomed power source.
I call upon the power of the weave to ignite my enemies with a fireball... Umm... Crap.
It's okay, that happens to all guys sometimes... *snicker*
Athasian wizards have to use plant energy because.
1. There is no god of magic.
2. Impeded access to the planes.
3. No mystical energy (weave, planes etc)to power spells exists.
On other worlds gods exist. I would be reasonable to assume it would be withen a nature gods power to prevent such energy being drawn from plants or cast an epic spell at the beginning of time to stop it. As powerful as advanced beings, Rajaat, and Spirits of the Land are they aern't gods. In addition even if it did work defiling would probably be detectable in a nature deities portfolio sense. A defiler could have a nasty encounter with an avatar of said deity. Silvanus (FR god) is a Druid 20, Ranger 10, Barbarian 10, outsider 20 HD divine rank 18 deity with salient divine powers. Good luck with him while Obad Hai is divine rank 15 Druid 20/Cleric 20. Both stat blocks predate the epic level handbook so their levels could be alot higher + add epic feats.
Do we actually know that magic works in the same way on Athas as on Faerun and other worlds? Maybe it's more than just the energy source that is different. Maybe Athasian magic is based on a whole different set of principles, chants, rituals etc that are based on Athas' particular mystical set-up, and wouldn't be any use outside of Athas.
Don't know really but the spells are the same. 2nd ed Spelljammer had rules for cross campaign magic. I would rule that the magic is the same except for the power source. Read magic is read magic at the end of the day regardless of world. A wizard would just have to figure out the local rules of magic 1st if they were drastically different- Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms would be safe Krynn and Athas have quite different rules for magic- plant enery and the moons in classic DL for instance.
Well as written in various FR you just can't draw magical power from plants. For whatever reason it just won't work as on Faerun you have to use the weave/shadow weave to power your magic.
I don't think you HAVE to use the weave on Faerun persay. I think that's just the method that was discovered/developed or may be the most efficient for that place.
Athasian wizards have to use plant energy because.
1. There is no god of magic.
2. Impeded access to the planes.
3. No mystical energy (weave, planes etc)to power spells exists.
Exactly, they don't have a choice, if they had an alternate source, I'm sure they'd be using it just like the Faerunians.
On other worlds gods exist. I would be reasonable to assume it would be withen a nature gods power to prevent such energy being drawn from plants... ...defiling would probably be detectable in a nature deities portfolio sense. A defiler could have a nasty encounter...
Now THAT I agree with! In fact, it'd make for a great piece of short fiction. (in the eyes of said defiler, VERY short) :P
Do we actually know that magic works in the same way on Athas as on Faerun and other worlds? Maybe it's more than just the energy source that is different. Maybe Athasian magic is based on a whole different set of principles, chants, rituals etc that are based on Athas' particular mystical set-up, and wouldn't be any use outside of Athas.
Don't know really but the spells are the same. 2nd ed Spelljammer had rules for cross campaign magic. I would rule that the magic is the same except for the power source. Read magic is read magic at the end of the day regardless of world. A wizard would just have to figure out the local rules of magic 1st if they were drastically different- Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms would be safe Krynn and Athas have quite different rules for magic- plant enery and the moons in classic DL for instance.
I would also have to agree with you on this, Zardnaar. I don't think a wizard would have to use a completely different magical "format" in a different plane. Wizards learn how to create/shape a magical effect (we call it a spell), and whatever way they do it channels the energy in the appropriate manner.
I see Athas as an Realm for itself, since it is cut from the rest of the D&D cosmos, and it's gods. The Sorcerer-Kings and Advanced Beings are the gods equals. They could at least stalemate or even defeat them :>.
Rajaat - Overpower
Champions of Rajaat - Greater and Intermediate Gods
Advanced Beings - Lesser and Demi Gods (depends on the Level)
"Normal" Athasians beyond the 25th level would be a challenge to Demigods, like in some other D&D novels and Games ;).
Spirits of the Lands range from Demigod-power to Greater God-power, the collective Spirit of Athas would be an Overpower.
The Elemental ABs would be Demigods and Lesser powers, as they are the Servants of the "Gods" of the Elemental Realms, each major power of the Elemental Realms is an Greater Power, as you all know.
I mailed once Troy Dennig my list, though only the Sorcerer-Kings and Rajaat, and he said that the SK would be only as powerful as Demigods or Lesser Powers, with Rajaat being as powerful as an Intermediate Power, but I prefer my list ;).
My two cb.
Well as written in various FR you just can't draw magical power from plants. For whatever reason it just won't work as on Faerun you have to use the weave/shadow weave to power your magic.
Like I was saying Preservers and Defilers are mentioned in the 2E players option book spells and powers. Of course, that's up to the DM to decide whether he will allow them.
Athasian wizards have to use plant energy because.1.There is no god of magic.
What did Vecna have to power his spells before he became a demi-god? I guess magic gods just plain don't care how you use it, Mystra is lawful neutral and doesn't. Wee Jas and Shar are evil and probably wouldn't have a problem with evil users of magic. Boccob I'm not sure.2. Impeded access to the planes.
As far as wizardly magic is concerned yes. Definitely not so with SK's and thier living vortices to empower thier templars.3. No mystical energy (weave, planes etc)to power spells exists.
I thought that the weave is generated/given by the god of magic. Mystra and Shar on FR.So, gods and the weave are somewhat redundant.