What if one side did win? What would they do thereafter?
I think the only way the fighting could stop would be through a temporary cessation of hostilities (such as, IIRC, Graz'zt is planning)--although I think the differing temperaments of the Lawful and Chaotic fiends would mean fighting would resume rapidly.
If it did look like one side were winning, I think that many other planar grous would either covertly or overtly step in to keep it fighting: most likely the yugoloths, rilmani, celestials, slaad and modrons. They'd either want the fighting to continue for the sake of money, balance, or the power of their alignment.
If somehow all the demons or devils in existence were slain, even then I don't think the war would truly be over. Sure, it might die out for a few millennia. But so long as the forces of Law and Chaos, Good and Evil exist in the multiverse the power of belief might spontaneously cause fiends to arise in the conquered Lower Planes. Plus, mortal souls might still end up in the respective outer plane--although without the baatezu or tanar'ri to mould them into a particular form, I'm not sure what they'd look like. Perhaps we'd see the genesis of entirely new forms of Lawful/Chaotic Evil exemplar.
If somehow all the demons or devils in existence were slain, even then I don't think the war would truly be over. Sure, it might die out for a few millennia. But so long as the forces of Law and Chaos, Good and Evil exist in the multiverse the power of belief might spontaneously cause fiends to arise in the conquered Lower Planes.
I thought this only happens in Sigil, belief spawning things.
I thought this only happens in Sigil, belief spawning things.
Nope, the entirety of the Outer Planes are like that.
Can the War be won? Yes. Will it? Not likely.
If the war were won by the demons, then all of devilkind would be, well, just slaughtered and used as demons saw fit. Some demons might see this as "liberating" the baatezu from the tyranny of the archdevils, but they have no real concern or charity for the oppressed diabolic masses.
Honestly, neither goal is sustainable nor even achievable. Demonkind could not be effectively enslaved or ruled under any system of law. And, barring total slaughter, the devils would simply elevate new rulers to lead and oppress them. They are incapable of living outside an ordered society without imposing order around them. Devils brought to serve in the Abyss would end up organizing the workers and trying to rig the system so that they could ascend to positions of leadership.
The only way that the war could be won is if there were a shift in the perceptions of the outer planes so that the concept of either law or chaos itself held more sway over the other. A radical realignment of the perceptions of the inhabitants of the wheel, or of mortal belief on the material plane, would have to take place.
Such a massive shift in alignment or perception would no doubt have major impact on the entire Wheel itself. The very shape of the Wheel would be affected. It might become a trapezoid or rhombus or a triangle or something. ;)
It stated that some philosophers believe that the Blood War has always been raging and that no being can remember a time that it has not been fought. Conversely, it is also believed that the end of the Blood War is the sign that the multiverse is in it's last days.
As an aside, yes it is is possible to win the Blood War. Each side needs a deck of sixty cards...:D
in the same vein before the baatazu the ancient baatorians ruled in either case evil fiends are spawned by the plane itself. For a total victory to be achieved one would need to completely eliminate the even concept of lawfully organized evil or chaotically destructive evil everywhere ( a very scary notion)
Then one race could be declared victor but the blood war would nowhere be over. There's still the yugoloths, celestial, slaadi, any type of lost elder evil, modrons, Rackshasas, Geniekind.
No the blood war can never change, only the oposing teams can change:D ...
Demons existed in the abyss long before the Tannarri ruled in the abyss. Obyriths were the demons of previous worlds just like tanari are the demos of the current mortal races
I thought Tanari ARE demons, that the name was changed from demons to Tanari in second edition, then back to demons in 3rd, cause there was a group in the 80's called BADD (Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons) who's leader said her son (supposedly) committed suicide because of D&D, and that demon was mentioned in the books.
in the same vein before the baatazu the ancient baatorians ruled in either case evil fiends are spawned by the plane itself.
Ever read the politics of hell article in an old dragon mag issue? It said who the original inhabitants of the nine hells were, if dragon is official.
I thought Tanari ARE demons, that the name was changed from demons to Tanari in second edition, then back to demons in 3rd, cause there was a group in the 80's called BADD (Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons) who's leader said her son (supposedly) committed suicide because of D&D, and that demon was mentioned in the books.
To digress, the culture of the mid-80's was one where the 'occult' references of D&D were coming under fire from several fronts, mostly due to misinterpretation of the hobby (as it was very different to other games. Where is the board? How do I win?), and urban legend surrounding 'gamer deaths/suicides/murders.
You'll find the differences between the first and second editions of the games' Monster Manuals is that the 2nd ed AD&D is a little thinner in the 'D' section as the Demons were fleshed out a bit more and given different names, most notably the Tanari and Batezu.
Now that 3rd ed is here, the demons are back.
:D
I thought Tanari ARE demons, that the name was changed from demons to Tanari in second edition, then back to demons in 3rd, cause there was a group in the 80's called BADD (Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons) who's leader said her son (supposedly) committed suicide because of D&D, and that demon was mentioned in the books
Ever read the politics of hell article in an old dragon mag issue? It said who the original inhabitants of the nine hells were, if dragon is official.
What's your point I said the Tanari were demons. I simply statted that they are the demons of the current mortal races. Just like the Obyriths, that existed before the mortal races even appeared were the demons of a previous ages. I never said that the Tanari aren't demons, I said the exact opposite they are Demons, I only implied that type of demons that exist change with the passing of ages like the shift from Obyriths to Tanari. How was my statement no clear on that point ?
[i]No, I did'nt but that does not preclude that something did'nt exist in the nine hells before the Baatazu arrived. Again your are arguing in empty air as my statement does not contradict any established cannon
I'm sorry if I seemed offensive, that's not my intention. I just don't understand how my statement could have been interpreted otherwise then it was written...
Ever read the politics of hell article in an old dragon mag issue? It said who the original inhabitants of the nine hells were, if dragon is official.
No, it didn't say anything on that topic, and that particular article is explicitly unofficial (because it says so in the first paragraph).
The only official on the original inhabitants of Baator is found in Faces of Evil, Hellbound, and Tales From the Infinite Staircase.
Tanar'ri are one breed of demons, but not the only ones. There are demons who aren't tanar'ri, such as obyriths, lamouras, quasits, retrievers, deathdrinkers, and whisper demons, just to give a few examples.
even then, it would probably still be a stalemate--after all, in the countless eons since it began, neither side has ever won a single decisive victory.
No, it didn't say anything on that topic, and that particular article is explicitly unofficial (because it says so in the first paragraph).
What's the issue and date of dragon that has that in it? I'd like to read it sometime. I wonder if they have dragon mag issues on Microfilm someplace.
Believe what you want. Deny it unto your demise. Victory is much sweeter when one can inflict agony and torment along with it. The flesh tastes much better seasoned with pain...
This talk is making me hungry.
Yes, the Blood War will be won. The outcome is inevitable. The Mighty Tanar'ri will whittle away the resistance that the Baatezu present, eventually devouring the multiverse in chaos and evil.
Believe what you want. Deny it unto your demise. Victory is much sweeter when one can inflict agony and torment along with it. The flesh tastes much better seasoned with pain...
This talk is making me hungry.
Tsk, tsk. The "mighty" Tanar'ri will do no such thing. As a matter of fact, they will continue much as they always have: disjointed, disorganized, and dispersed, they (whatever lords and "true" members of the species that can get their act together for that week, that is) will continue to hurl vast, but ultimately insignificant, hordes upon Baator and the rest of the lower planes, always appearing as a potential threat due to their vast numbers (the only thing to in fact speak in favor of their purported meance), but too busy fighting on all fronts (not least with one another) and incapable of attaining the discipline and consistency needed to achieve any permanent or meaningful victories outside of their own infinitely dreadful realms. Some will realize what keeps them from attaining victory, some will attempt to rectify it (even at the cost of sacrificing the essence of their so-cherised Chaos), but they will always be grains of ambitious sand on a vast and fetid beach of Chaos and Evil, no more able to change the state of things than a single manes could impede the advance of a herd of ravenous Goristro. This will continue until one day some new breed of abomination will come crawling out of the Abyss and claim the Tanar'ri's primacy among demon-kind for themselves. In the meantime, even the sinking of Minauros is a more acute, real and significant danger to the Baatezu than any Tanar'ric victory over the bastion Nine Hells, in which the race has so far never made as much as a single lasting dent.
Believe what you want. Deny it unto your demise. Such hubris only serves to show why the many-headed, teeming mass of banal insanity that lords over Evil's embarrassing half is its own worst enemy.
Not that any of that matters, mind you. The schemes of the 'loths are simple and insignificant compared to the grand machinations of the Baatezu, who will soon prove that the true path to power and the purest form of evil are arrived at through the unyielding force of law. (Just remember, the blood of opposition is what makes the red tape red, in the Hells.)
I always tought that neutrality would win in the end.
And it may yet: *cut to a picture of an Aurumach and an Argenach dressing up as the General of Gehenna and a Baernoloth, respectively, and going on their merry way to direct the Baatezu, Tanar'ri *and* the Yugoloths for the 7 000 000:th millenia running...*
Believe what you want. Deny it unto your demise. Such hubris only serves to show why the many-headed, teeming mass of banal insanity that lords over Evil's embarrassing half is its own worst enemy.
So like the Baatezu: full of unoriginal and hollow things to say. So many words, yet so little substance.
Wow. That makes a lot of sense.
Well, thank you. :D
But that doesn't matter, because the outer planes are a place of belief.
If the Tanar'ri can convince everyone that they are winning, they will.
(Or if they could get enough of them into the lower layers of baator to outnumber the baatezu there(as the 2nd to 9th level aren't infinite in size)
they could change the balance of alignment and steal whole layers from baator.
That in turn would convince a lot of people that the Tanar'ri are winning and so make it a reality :D
Well, as both sides have an infinite supply of soldiers, it can't be won in the classical sense.
But that doesn't matter, because the outer planes are a place of belief.
It's a matter of the struggle between law and chaos. As law becomes dominant in the multiverse, so do the baatezu become dominant in the Blood War. Same for chaos and tanar'ri.
(Only that I claimed chaos would win)
Eh, yes, that's what I said :P
(Only that I claimed chaos would win)
I know
I was just saying it a different way. Clarifying, maybe.Pah, those rumors were spread by the yugoloth, so both sides would be more willing to go to extra lengths to bribe them.
I find that at least half the time that's true about anything, ever.
On the flip side the Baatezu are well organized, work better together, have great battle plans and strategy, and in fact have won the majority of the battles with the Tanar'ric forces. So why haven't they won? Simple they fight an enemy who draws from limitless numbers of forces and has no problem sacrificing them. No matter how far a Baatorian Force may get they always reach a point where the Tanar'ric force will over run them. Were the Tanar'ri to ever organize and stay organized they would crush the Baatezu in a heartbeat (not that the Baatezu would admit it), but then if they organized that wouldn't be chaotic and therefor not Tanar'ri.
There have also been a few times in the war that the two sides have come together to try and make peace, but it has never lasted very long as the idealogical differences and ancient hatreds always win out and they turn on each other. The only other time they worked successfully together was early on when the forces of good attempted to wipe them out and they banded together and decimated the forces of good... and then went back to fighting each other. This is also the point where the rest of the multiverse realized that they couldn't beat either side and that if one side won they would quickly sweep over the rest of the planes and conquer it. So while the rest of the planes occasionally gets involved in a battle, they usually try to manipulate things from the sidelines.
Anyway this is getting to be a very long post. I highly recommend looking over 2nd edition Planescape manuals as they are a wealth of info, especially the blood wars box set and faces of evil book. I think 3E fiends have been way to dumbed down compared with what they should be.
Both sides have the same size...infinite. As that is the nature of infinite sized planes.
You should have read the thread first :P
Now to the point that actual made me answer.
The power of the fiends in edition 3.5 isn't real lower than before.
The only one really suffering from the new edition are the dretch, as their favorite tactic of keeping to summon in new groups until they overwhelm the enemy by sheer number is not working anymore.
(hm, I wonder if the summon quality should work differently when you encounter them in the abyss, maybe instead of gating in, they just teleport to the location there, so they still can use their summon ability)
Both sides have the same size...infinite. As that is the nature of infinite sized planes.
You should have read the thread first :P
Yes my reading is a bit skimmish ;) However I disagree about the numbers. The planes are infinite and the armies seem endless, but just because the plane is infinite does not mean the living resources (ie. Baatezu, and Tanar'ri) are also infinite. The Abyss however has infinite planes from which to draw Tanar'ri and it also spawns a much larger variety of fiend then Baator does. While in appearance anyone observing both planes may feel like there is infinite amounts of both, in truth there is a finite number in both, but they are simply incomprehensible in size and thus labeled "infinite". If both sides where to empty and engage one another the Tanar'ri would vastly out number the Baatezu.
Now to the point that actual made me answer.
The power of the fiends in edition 3.5 isn't real lower than before.
The only one really suffering from the new edition are the dretch, as their favorite tactic of keeping to summon in new groups until they overwhelm the enemy by sheer number is not working anymore.
(hm, I wonder if the summon quality should work differently when you encounter them in the abyss, maybe instead of gating in, they just teleport to the location there, so they still can use their summon ability)
I agree that the power is not reduced in 3.5 but they have lost much of the diabolical feeling and grand scope of what made fiends so great in 2e and Planescape in particular. The 'Loths have been reduced from the puppeteers of the planes to simple mercenaries. While the Baatezu and Tanar'ri are just big bad evils as apposed to the grand schemers and planners they use to be.
Anyway I will try to more thoroughly read the posts in the future, so as to not rehash old issues. :D There are some great threads here and very intelligent people responding.
And for the lack of flavor about the demons. There isn't much specific material on them as they currently target only prime worlds.
And the clueless don't know about those things. (Hence the name :P )
Generally, at least in my games, fiend populations are highly concentrated, and a plane shift is not going to randomly send anyone to an area that is extremely far from such populations.
Planes are infinite in size so they have room for whoever or whatever needs to be there.
It's not like they would be the most social of creatures.
(And greater teleport is a great way to get away from those nasty Balor who wants you to fight in his army)
(And I just realized that stupid 3rd edition removed the teleportation ability from those poor dretches. Oh no, wait, I remember, the yugoloth are to blame)